Prominent Troofer has protesters gunned down, rest of troof movement is silent

[Sword_Of_Truth]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071107/wl_afp/venezuelapoliticsdemo_071107214231

CARACAS (AFP) - One person was killed and six were wounded in Caracas Wednesday as an armed group attacked students returning from a protest against constitutional changes sought by leftist President Hugo Chavez, authorities said.

When Chavez is having his picture taken with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him.
Edit to point to post retracting the photograph claim:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3140837#post3140837


When Chavez is shooting people in the streets for "just askin questions", where are the troofers?

Where's the outrage, Swing, Bofors, Max?

Where is the "principled opposition to fascism"?

Is your position that shooting dissenters is ok if it's your side that does it?

[Slayhamlet]

Well, it's misleading to say that Chavez himself ordered or even sanctioned the attacks. Though it was armed thugs that were acting in his name, which is almost as bad. The true test will be to see whether Chavez does anything about it as far as prosecuting those involved and taking measures to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. I can't say I'm expecting much from him, however, given his history.

Either way, "Truthers" won't care and will keep bitching about being in a "police state," oblivious to their own hypocrisy.

[Plantfoam]

Regardless of his photo-op with Rodriguez, I still can't stand it when I run into Chavez fanboys. Some people seem to view him as some kind of freedom fighter, which is somewhat similar to how people blindly follow Che and display him proudly on a t-shirt. Never mind the fact that even one of his cabinet members ended up in jail for disagreeing with him on tv.

[bofors]

Where's the outrage, Swing, Bofors, Max?


I am outraged, I tell you... let's do some "false flag" operations to get people pissed off enough at Venezuela to go to war (and steal their oil)...
~~~~~~

Seriously though, what is up with this "armed group"? For all we know this "armed group" was CIA backed and deliberately stirring up anti-Chavez sentiments...

For all we know, this could just be something like Operation Gladio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

Where is the proof that Chavez was behind this?

[bofors]

Well, it's misleading to say that Chavez himself ordered or even sanctioned the attacks.

Exactly... moreover, Chavez is not stupid enough to do something like this.

Any more than Syria kill Al-Hariri: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafik_Hariri#Assassination

What exactly do you people "intelligence" agencies like the CIA do?

There are not just a bunch James Bond-like dudes running around the saving the world.

No, they do the dirty deeds necessary to over through guys like Chavez and they stoup to the murder of civilians on a regular basis.

Just check out codenamed Operation Ajax: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

We know damm well that the CIA is working in Vezenuala to over through Chavez as hard as it can.

[Undesired Walrus]

What exactly do you people "intelligence" agencies like the CIA do?

There are not just a bunch James Bond-like dudes running around the saving the world.

No, In your eyes, they are run by Dr No-type people.

Don't attempt to give your movement an 'edge' against the 'mainstream' people of the world. It's embarrassing.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Seriously though, what is up with this "armed group"? For all we know this "armed group" was CIA backed and deliberately stirring up anti-Chavez sentiments...

So that's your response to every crime that is committed by a troofer?

Whether its Chavez gunning down protesters or Ahmedinijad executing homosexuals, it's not them... it's all the CIA?

[funk de fino]

I shared a villa in Saudi earlier this year with a guy from Colombia who has lived and worked and has relations in Venezuela, and the stories he told me about Chavez were shocking.

The loonies can defend him and blame the CIA all they want it only makes them look more stupid.

hypocrisy of a huge level

[jhunter1163]

So that's your response to every crime that is committed by a troofer?

Whether its Chavez gunning down protesters or Ahmedinijad executing homosexuals, it's not them... it's all the CIA?

Not always. Sometimes it's the Mossad.

[SDC]

Not always. Sometimes it's the Mossad.

Remember the good old days when it might be General Motors?

Sigh. Those days are gone.

[jhunter1163]

Remember the good old days when it might be General Motors?

Sigh. Those days are gone.


I'm nostalgic for the good old days when Commies roamed the land and that heroic Senator McCarthy took them on practically single-handedly. Those were the days, huh?

[SDC]

I'm nostalgic for the good old days when Commies roamed the land and that heroic Senator McCarthy took them on practically single-handedly. Those were the days, huh?

You're right. Good old Tail Gunner Joe. And Roy Cohn before he got all weird'n'stuff... Remember Herb Philbrick? "I Married a Communist."

"Don't Cry for me, Foggy Bottom..."

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Not always. Sometimes it's the Mossad.


What makes you think that the CIA and MOSSAD are seperate organizations?

[firecoins]

Iran doesn't have homosexuals. They don't have that phenomina. I don't know who told you Iran had it.

[firecoins]

Of course the CIA and Mossad are separate organizations. Mossad are the cool kids while the CIA are trying to be cool.

[Molinaro]

ISeriously though, what is up with this "armed group"? For all we know this "armed group" was CIA backed and deliberately stirring up anti-Chavez sentiments...

Basicaly what you are saying is that if it's in your imagination it's as good as the truth? :rolleyes:

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Say what you will about Bush... But those idiots who praise Chavez (*cough*Sheehan*cough*Hollywood*) and claim Bush is creating a Police State seriously have issues... Or they're just disingenuous in their claims for political gain.

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Basicaly what you are saying is that if it's in your imagination it's as good as the truth? :rolleyes:

I've said it a million times... :) Troofers don't need proof. Speculation and Conjecture is all they need to convict in a Court of Truth™

[RedIbis]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071107/wl_afp/venezuelapoliticsdemo_071107214231



When Chavez is having his picture taken with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him.

When Chavez is shooting people in the streets for "just askin questions", where are the troofers?

Where's the outrage, Swing, Bofors, Max?

Where is the "principled opposition to fascism"?

Is your position that shooting dissenters is ok if it's your side that does it?

What picture of Rodriguez with Chavez? Please post it or retract the statement.

[Dave Rogers]

Any more than Syria kill Al-Hariri: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafik_Hariri#Assassination

Clearly Syria had nothing to do with it. From your source, the infallibly reliable Wikipedia:


The latest progress report by Brammertz has indicated that DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA) evidence collected from the crime scene strongly suggests that the assassination might be the act of a young male suicide bomber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bomber).


It must, therefore, have been the Japanese.

Dave

[TShaitanaku]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071107/wl_afp/venezuelapoliticsdemo_071107214231



When Chavez is having his picture taken with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him.

When Chavez is shooting people in the streets for "just askin questions", where are the troofers?

Where's the outrage, Swing, Bofors, Max?

Where is the "principled opposition to fascism"?

Is your position that shooting dissenters is ok if it's your side that does it?

Other than occassionally pandering to the truthers how are Chavez and the truthers on "the same side?" Sounds like quite a ridiculous stretch. Are you sure you're not engaging in a bit of political ideologue rhetoric yourself? How is such a statement fundementally different from the absurdist declarations of any other extremist?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

Other than occassionally pandering to the truthers how are Chavez and the truthers on "the same side?"

They both want to see the end of the U.S.A. "Regime".

Truthers are all gaga over Ahmadinnajad when he speaks out against Jews, 9/11, and America.

I believe the term "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" fits here perfectly.

[SDC]

Clearly Syria had nothing to do with it. From your source, the infallibly reliable Wikipedia:



It must, therefore, have been the Japanese.

Dave

I scoff at this statement. It was the Tamil Tigers. Especially the guy who just got arrested who was in baggage handling at Newark International airport. (I think I have that right.)

[Good Lt]

Where is the proof that Chavez was behind this?

Where is the proof that explosives were used to demolish WTC7 or the Twin Towers?

[RedIbis]

Does anyone have a pic of Rodriguez with Chavez? Anyone?

[SDC]

Does anyone have a pic of Rodriguez with Chavez? Anyone?

Yep. Chavez is the one in the Vera Wang dress with the black slingbacks.

Be still my heart.

[RedIbis]

Yep. Chavez is the one in the Vera Wang dress with the black slingbacks.

Be still my heart.

In other words you don't have one. Might we request that the OP edit the post to make note of the fact that such a picture doesn't exist.

[SDC]

In other words you don't have one. Might we request that the OP edit the post to make note of the fact that such a picture doesn't exist.

All right all right. It's not Vera Wang. But he is wearing those hot, hot black slingbacks.

Sheesh you are so persnickety.

[TShaitanaku]

They both want to see the end of the U.S.A. "Regime".

Truthers are all gaga over Ahmadinnajad when he speaks out against Jews, 9/11, and America.

I believe the term "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" fits here perfectly.


I guess if one ascribes to such idiocy, it makes perfect sense.

How come these polarized groups hate each other so much when they seem to think so much alike and act in the same manner, just from opposite poles of extremism?

[Brainache]

Jeez I love WIKI, read about these guys Truth dudes:

The National Endowment for Democracy, or NED, is a U.S. non-profit organization that was founded in 1983, to promote democracy by providing cash grants funded primarily through an annual allocation from the U.S. Congress. Although administered as a private organization, its funding comes almost entirely from a governmental appropriation by Congress and it was created by an act of Congress. In addition to its grants program, NED also supports and houses the Journal for Democracy, the World Movement for Democracy, the International Forum for Democratic Studies, the Reagan-Fascell Fellowship Program, the Network of Democracy Research Institutes, and the Center for International Media Assistance. It has been criticized by both right-wing and left-wing personalities of interferences in foreign regimes, and of being set up to legally continue the CIA's prohibited activities of support to selected political parties abroad [1].


Why do we have to do all the work?

[SpaceMonkeyZero]

I guess if one ascribes to such idiocy, it makes perfect sense.

How come these polarized groups hate each other so much when they seem to think so much alike and act in the same manner, just from opposite poles of extremism?

Wait... where does the Truth movement show that they hate Iran and Chavez so much? Where does Iran show it's hate for Chavez or the truth movement. Chavez doesn't show hate for Iran or the truth movement.

The left-right spectrum is more like a cylinder. The extreme left and extreme right meet up at some point and as long as they can be seen as non-threatening to each other in some differences (such as religion in Iran and Chavez's pseudo Christianity/Atheism doublespeak) then they find they have a lot in common.

[Good Lt]

Here's a pic of a prominent Troofer with Hugo Chavez.

http://www.neandernews.com/wp-content/themes/images/cindyandhugo.jpg

[RedIbis]

Good LT,
Please try again. From the OP:

"When Chavez is having his picture taken with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him."

[SDC]

Good LT,
Please try again. From the OP:

"When Chavez is having his picture taken with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him."

It was Halloween. Rodriguez is on the right (red jacket), and Chavez on the left (blond with thumb gesture). You can't see the shoes in this picture, unfortunately.

[Good Lt]

Try what agian? I was merely pointing out that a prominent Troofer and Hugo Chavez are buddy-buddy.

I'm not trying to find pictures of Willie and Hugo.

[Brainache]

Good LT,
Please try again. From the OP:

"When Chavez is having his picture taken with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him."

Why are you ignoring my post?

[RedIbis]

Try what agian? I was merely pointing out that a prominent Troofer and Hugo Chavez are buddy-buddy.

I'm not trying to find pictures of Willie and Hugo.

Why not? It's a claim made in the OP. Why doesn't it bother the so called skeptics when one of their own posts something inaccurate?

It's a pile on when a "twoofer" does it, so why not the same scrutiny?

And this is a big charge, that Rodriguez would meet with and take a picture with Chavez.

[RedIbis]

Why are you ignoring my post?

Because I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

[Brainache]

Why not? It's a claim made in the OP. Why doesn't it bother the so called skeptics when one of their own posts something inaccurate?

It's a pile on when a "twoofer" does it, so why not the same scrutiny?

And this is a big charge, that Rodriguez would meet with and take a picture with Chavez.

Who gives a rats bottom about Willy Rodriguez? What about NED?

[Disbelief]

What picture of Rodriguez with Chavez? Please post it or retract the statement.

Who says the pics are posted? Are you denying that Willie met with the dictator of what is becoming a real police state and that the truthers were pleased?

[Brainache]

Because I have absolutely no idea what your point is.

Look Mr Truther Dude, NED is a wing of the CIA which interferes in foreign governments to promote their own agenda and if you can't see it, I can't help you.

[RedIbis]

Look Mr Truther Dude, NED is a wing of the CIA which interferes in foreign governments to promote their own agenda and if you can't see it, I can't help you.


What does that have to do with Rodriguez meeting and taking a picture with Chavez?

And you can dispense with the name calling, it's a sign of desperation.

[SDC]

What does that have to do with Rodriguez meeting and taking a picture with Chavez?

And you can dispense with the name calling, it's a sign of desperation.

Oh, come down from the high'n'mighty. First, you and other Truthers and Truthettes post false statements on a regular basis. (And before you demand, no, I'm not going to post a list or catalog.)

Second, why don't you do your own research about any photo op? Look up the AP photo archive, for example. Or whatever is the Venezuelan national press service.

Third, are you denying that WR met with Chavez, at a time when there is serious trouble in the streets thereabouts?

Desperation, pfeh. Yeah, sure. That theatre in Minnesota is all sold out and the mobs are marching on DC.

[RedIbis]

Who says the pics are posted? Are you denying that Willie met with the dictator of what is becoming a real police state and that the truthers were pleased?

Well, the way it usually works is if you make a claim, such as Rodriguez taking a pic with Chavez, the way to back that claim up is by producing the photo.

I'm not denying anything. I'm asking for proof. Post the article which states that Rodriguez met with Chavez. Post the pic of Chavez and Rodriguez.

If you can't, perhaps you'll join me in requesting that the OP be edited, retracted or acknowledged as incorrect.

This is an exercise in jref conspiracy theory forum objectivity.

[Good Lt]

Um, Red. It's not exactly a baseless claim.

Google it. (http://http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=William+Rodriguez+AND+Hugo+Chavez)

Here are reports highlighting (http://http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=23198) the historic occasion, in which Willy was to speak to the Venezuelan Parliment and appear with Hugo on TV.

From Willie's Wikipedia entry (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez):

In 2006 he accompanied Jimmy Walter in a trip to Venezuela, in which they met with the President of the Assembly and will soon meet with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez in anticipation of an official Venezuelan government investigation into 9/11. Both Rodríguez and Jimmy Walter believe that the FBI and federal government aimed at sabotaging this trip, using tactics such as including them on the no-fly list.[9] Rodriguez claims that the FBI requested the guest list of the hotel he was in, and as a result, the Venezuelan government gave him five full-time body guards.[citation needed]

In June of 2006, he appeared at the 9/11 + The Neo-Con Agenda Symposium in Los Angeles, California,[28] organized by Alex Jones,[29] at which Jones complimented him at length for his work in "speaking to members of the Japanese parliament, prime ministers, former prime minister of Malaysia, speaking to the Head of the parliament in Venezuela, getting an investigation with Hugo Chávez…". His personal speech has since appeared on Google Video.


Here's the video (http://www.americanscholarssymposium.org/video/symposium_highlights.htm). There are apparently a lot of Twoofers who thought this did happen. Are they all wrong? Did the meeting happen or not?

Now Red - produce a photograph of the Framers signing the Constitution.

No photo? I guess it didn't happen then.

[RedIbis]

Um, Red. It's not exactly a baseless claim.

Google it. (http://http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=William+Rodriguez+AND+Hugo+Chavez)

Here are reports highlighting (http://http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=23198) the historic occasion, in which Willy was to speak to the Venezuelan Parliment and appear with Hugo on TV.

From Willie's Wikipedia entry (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez):



Here's the video (http://http://www.americanscholarssymposium.org/video/symposium_highlights.htm). There are apparently a lot of Twoofers who thought this did happen. Are they all wrong? Did the meeting happen or not?

Now Red - produce a photograph of the Framers signing the Constitution.

No photo? I guess it didn't happen then.

Going to Venezuela and meeting with the President of the National Assembly, Maduro is NOT the same as meeting with Chavez.

The exercise is a simple one. The claim was made in the OP that Rodriguez took a pic with Chavez.

Simple. Produce the photo.

[Good Lt]

I'll tell you what.

You produce photos of the bombs in the WTC, and of the President ordering the strike on the WTC, and of NIST scrubbing its reports, and I'll show you the photo.

Simple, right?

[RedIbis]

I'll tell you what.

You produce photos of the bombs in the WTC, and of the President ordering the strike on the WTC, and of NIST scrubbing its reports, and I'll show you the photo.

Simple, right?

No go. This thread and the OP make a specific claim. I'm requesting proof of that claim. Let's not derail the issue.

[Good Lt]

No go.

So you don't have anything, huh?

[BenBurch]

Chavez is not a nice fellow. He's not really a truther you know; He just sees anything that sews unrest in America as being a good thing for him. He's USING them. Just like he used Cindy Sheehan. And if he uses them up? He doesn't care.

[RedIbis]

So you don't have anything, huh?

Well, I certainly don't have a pic of Rodriguez and Chavez.

Do you?

[Good Lt]

I told you I'll produce it after you produce pics of the bombs and demolitions wired into WTC 7 and the Twin Towers.

Because we both know CD happened. Right?

[RedIbis]

I told you I'll produce it after you produce pics of the bombs and demolitions wired into WTC 7 and the Twin Towers.



I know and that's absolutely absurd. My request for a pic of the original claim is all throughout this thread. Trust me, I'm not spinning around on this carousel with you too much more.

[Good Lt]

So you have no photographic or forensic evidence of bombs in WTC7 or in the Twin Towers proving a CD, do you?

And yet, you DEMAND evidence in this instance? What with all the attention to evidence all of the sudden?

[Brainache]

What does that have to do with Rodriguez meeting and taking a picture with Chavez?

And you can dispense with the name calling, it's a sign of desperation.

Sorry I thought this was a thread about US secret agents trying to overthrow an elected official of another country, but if you think bickering with JERFers about [whatever] is more important, well slap my mouth and call me patsy, but I thought you guys were all about seeking Truth, guess I was wrong. Sorry, please carry on with the pointless bickering with the other guys...

[RedIbis]

Sorry I thought this was a thread about US secret agents trying to overthrow an elected official of another country, but if you think bickering with JERFers about [whatever] is more important, well slap my mouth and call me patsy, but I thought you guys were all about seeking Truth, guess I was wrong. Sorry, please carry on with the pointless bickering with the other guys...

I will not be carrying on with pointless bickering. I will politely ask that a claim made in the OP be substantiated.

[Good Lt]

And we politely ask on nearly every thread that evidence supporting claims made by CTs about explosives in WTC 7 and the Twin Towers be substantiated.

Hasn't happened yet, for some reason.

QED.

[Hellbound]

Just for general fun, google search for "Hugo Chavez" "Alo Presidente".

I didn't find the actual video (although I didn't really look for it, as I don't care that much), but apparently part of the scheduled events and stated purpose was for Willie to appear on TV with Hugo. Did he? Again, I don't really care, so I didn't look that far. The only thing I can find are announcements of how this is being planned, nothing about after.

However, almost every site offered a quote identical or similar to this:
Rodriguez and Walter are also set to appear on Hugo Chavez’s weekly broadcast ‘Alo Presidente’ - which is often subsequently the source of major international headlines. If there is no coverage of this event then we know for sure that a blackout order is in place.

I find this particularly humorous and ironic, as I can't even find any coverage of the actual event on the troother sites!

[DavidJames]

So you don't have anything, huh?

Red has taken it upon himself to become the official CTist "gotcha" police. He's a full blooded CTists, but instead of making actual claims, he limits his role to being offended at what he believes is bad behavior towards himself and other CTists along with picking nits in posts he feels paint other CTists in a negative light.

He reminds me of another CTists who spent a lot of time in the monthly Stundie threads complaining about the entries.

[Good Lt]

I find this particularly humorous and ironic, as I can't even find any coverage of the actual event on the troother sites!

Probably ended up like everything else they huff and haw about - all hype, and then nothing happens.

[RedIbis]

Red has taken it upon himself to become the official CTist "gotcha" police. He's a full blooded CTists, but instead of making actual claims, he limits his role to being offended at what he believes is bad behavior towards himself and other CTists along with picking nits in posts he feels paint other CTists in a negative light.

He reminds me of another CTists who spent a lot of time in the monthly Stundie threads complaining about the entries.


You guys don't like it when someone points out your mistakes.

[Disbelief]

He reminds me of another CTists who spent a lot of time in the monthly Stundie threads complaining about the entries.

William Rea wasn't it?

[Minadin]

In June of 2006, he appeared at the 9/11 + The Neo-Con Agenda Symposium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_%2B_The_Neo-Con_Agenda_Symposium) in Los Angeles, California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles%2C_California),[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez#_note-21) organized by Alex Jones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Jones_%28radio%29),[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Rodriguez#_note-22) at which Jones complimented him at length for his work in "speaking to members of the Japanese parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Japan), prime ministers, former prime minister of Malaysia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Malaysia), speaking to the Head of the parliament in Venezuela (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Venezuela), getting an investigation with Hugo Chávez (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez)…"


Video here of Alex Jones supposedly claiming he met with Chavez. I haven't watched it because it's an hour long, and I don't usually take Alex Jones' word as evidence of anything, but this seems like the origin of the story of Mr. Rodriguez having his photo taken with Hugo Chavez. I haven't seen any such photo itself.
http://www.americanscholarssymposium.org/video/symposium_highlights.htm

[Brainache]

I will not be carrying on with pointless bickering. I will politely ask that a claim made in the OP be substantiated.

Well, while you are at it perhaps you could give us the Truther(or whatever you call yourself) definition of : The National Endowment For Democracy?

Are they fictitious?

Are they a false flag op?

Do they run the world?

What?

[Good Lt]

You guys don't like it when someone points out your mistakes.

And you guys don't like producing hard evidence substantiating your conspiracy fantasies. Ever.

If your theories are soooo obvious (like CD in WTC7), then why can't you produce evidence supporting them?

World keeps on spinnin.'

[Brainache]

And you guys don't like producing hard evidence substantiating your conspiracy fantasies. Ever.

If your theories are soooo obvious (like CD in WTC7), then why can't you produce evidence supporting them?

World keeps on spinnin.'

Exactly. Nothing to see here.

[BenBurch]

Best I can find is a picture of Wm the Liar holding up a bank note with a picture of Chavez. :)

[Brainache]

Best I can find is a picture of Wm the Liar holding up a bank note with a picture of Chavez. :)

OK

Sorry, has RedIbis been captured, tortured and fed his own eyeballs, or what?

[Hellbound]

Of course, regardless of the photo, the fac tis that the 9/11 trooth movement was "gaga" over Chavez when he was talking about opening an international 9/11 investigation and such. So the existence of a phot is, pretty much, irrelevent to the main point. A simple web search shows the praise on various CT sites for Chavez in regards to this.

[BenBurch]

Of course, regardless of the photo, the fac tis that the 9/11 trooth movement was "gaga" over Chavez when he was talking about opening an international 9/11 investigation and such. So the existence of a phot is, pretty much, irrelevent to the main point. A simple web search shows the praise on various CT sites for Chavez in regards to this.

The sad/funny part is that they don't seem to have any suspicion or clue that they are being played like a fiddle.

[mortimer]

I'll have to agree with RedIbis on this one; there doesn't seem to be any evidence of a Rodriguez/Chavez picture, nor of any meeting between the two. However, there is plenty of evidence that a large number of truthers were quite happy when Chavez announced that he was also a truther.

[Swing Dangler]

It's a pile on when a "twoofer" does it, so why not the same scrutiny?


Isn't that the truth!

[Phrost]

Where is the proof that Chavez was behind this?

Wow. Occam's Razor much?

[Hellbound]

Isn't that the truth!

Here's the difference:

Whether the photo was actualyl taken or not is really irrelevent to the primary point: the truthers were all praising Chavez earlier, now where is the outrage at his (alleged) police state tactics?

Howeve,r with troothers, most often the primary point they're attempting to make is the one that lacks evidence.

Think if a person came in late to work one morning and claimed they had a flat. It's the difference between asking to see the tire repair bill and asking if they can prove that their car has leather seats.

ETA: That said, I do think this simply should have been stated (or the photo claim retracted, as it realyl had no impact on the argument itself). But consdiering the usual "debate" and "evidence" tactics by almost every troother that I've seen, I can't blame them for wanting to yank your chain a bit.

[Brainache]

Oh well, I tried.

OK on edit: Try this one retards! : http://www.ned.org/

See what happens...

Am I the only one who thinks this is funny?

[BenBurch]

Isn't that the truth!

I agree the Good Lt. spoke without looking up that fact, but trivial facts regarding a Liar meeting a Killer really aren't an issue. If they never met, it certainly isn't because either one of them wouldn't love the press coverage on the meeting!

What is at issue here is the deaths of 3000 Americans and the subsequent deaths of 3700+ US Soldiers in an idiotic reaction to that.

Y'all want to additionally assert that 6700+ Americans went to their deaths because of a plot from within; Americans killing Americans. And it appears that all of what you say on this topic is pure vapor.

Like McPadden. Y'all had The Mother Of All Smoking Guns there, didn't you?

Until I found out he left the Air Force busted to E1.

And then he came right here and confessed that he had been given a General Discharge for failure to report a crime, and that he was NOT an elite para-rescue medic, and that the Countdown Never Happened.

And every single time I pick one of your facts and run it down, I find the same thing; Shifting sands and misdirection. It is a Tissue Of Lies.

Lies about something material.

Lies about something deadly.

Lies about the deaths of innocents.

And you aren't even humane enough to be ashamed.

I weep for my country.

[Ocelot]

OK so meeting happened, no evidence of a photo session.

I shall now demonstrate what shold happen if the evidence doesn't abck up your claims.

You change your claim. OP should now read.

'When Chavez is meeting with Willie "Last man out" Rodriguez, the troofers are all gaga over him.'

Job done, thank you very, much and good night.

[Brainache]

HELLO??? Has anyone seen any of my posts? I think it's all covered in the links... Why is everyone ignoring me? Am I about to be bumped off? Tell Lyte Trip he had it wrong, there is no clicking noise!!!!


This is bizzarre. Here I am trying to give the Truthers the biggest ever smoking gun and Red IBis doesn't want it...

[SDC]

HELLO??? Has anyone seen any of my posts? I think it's all covered in the links... Why is everyone ignoring me? Am I about to be bumped off? Tell Lyte Trip he had it wrong, there is no clicking noise!!!!

Well heck I think it is very interesting. I don't think I ever heard this spoken of per the acronym NED, but as the "National ... etc." Considering the founding date (1983) it certainly reminds me of Soviet-era efforts. (And of course we still had the SSSR then, so that's appropriate.) And indeed there is a Venezuelan program.

Check. Entirely on topic. I apologize for participating in the "Willie and the Hand Jive Photo Op" derail. This is much more significant and interesting. (But I still think Chavez wears slingbacks in his equivalent of the West Wing.)

[chillzero]

Please stop the discussion about a photograph, and get the thread back on topic. The mod team are aware of this dispute, and will take any action if necessary.

[BenBurch]

OK

Sorry, has RedIbis been captured, tortured and fed his own eyeballs, or what?

Prolly at work. Those of us who are not self-employed tend to have to ignore important things like the net for 8 hours a day... :)

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

<snip>
And you can dispense with the name calling, it's a sign of desperation.
Don't confuse "exasperation" with "desperation". Additionally, attempting to leverage someones use of name calling in your argument is a form of argumentum ad hominem and does nothing to strengthen your position nor weaken your opponent's.

[Brainache]

Prolly at work. Those of us who are not self-employed tend to have to ignore important things like the net for 8 hours a day... :)

Well I tend to forget that not everyone lives on Australian time. I was posting all of that stuff late at night and frankly I was slightly less than sober. I'm surprised to see that it still makes any sense at all.

Now I have a NED-ache.


boo hiss

[dudalb]

At least Chavez is beginning to show his true colors.

[CHF]

I have a feeling that twoofers would absolutely LOVE to have the US government open fire on their rallies.

It would definitely be a sign of importance.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Ok, I freely admit my google-fu is not up to "Gravy" standards. I've been unable to locate the actual photograph of Rodriguez and Chavez together. I will restate my original question (which remains virtually unchanged).

TROOFERS: (this means you, Redibis) Why do you cheer when Hugo Chavez vomits up 9/11 psuedo-truth (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13401534/) to the media, but you remain silent when he has protesters shot to pieces in the streets?

[RedIbis]

Ok, I freely admit my google-fu is not up to "Gravy" standards. I've been unable to locate the actual photograph of Rodriguez and Chavez together. I will restate my original question (which remains virtually unchanged).

TROOFERS: (this means you, Redibis) Why do you cheer when Hugo Chavez vomits up 9/11 psuedo-truth (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13401534/) to the media, but you remain silent when he has protesters shot to pieces in the streets?

How impressive. First, you adress me as a "troofer" then you ask why I "cheer" for Hugo Chavez.

I have never cheered for Chavez for any reason whatsoever.

Next question...

[Par]

Exactly... moreover, Chavez is not stupid enough to do something like this... What exactly do you people "intelligence" agencies like the CIA do? [T]hey do the dirty deeds necessary to over through guys like Chavez and they stoup to the murder of civilians on a regular basis... We know damm well that the CIA is working in Vezenuala to over through Chavez as hard as it can.


So, you deploy an argument from incredulity in order to acquit the dictator, and then attempt to assign the American government to the dock. Apparently, it’s likely a CIA-led conspiracy, and evidence is unnecessary.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

How impressive. First, you adress me as a "troofer" then you ask why I "cheer" for Hugo Chavez.

I have never cheered for Chavez for any reason whatsoever.

Next question...

"Troofer" = one who claims the terror attacks of 9/11 to be an "inside job" and upon that claim, advocates positions which are beneficial to Al-Queada and the islamo-fascist movement.

This accurately describes yourself.

I do appreciate that you do not cheer the savagery of fellow troofers like Chavez and Ahmedinijad. The rest of your movement does not seem as interested in distancing itself from real fascists and dictators, however.

[SDC]

I am distressed and disturbed that Fidel Castro's comments about 9/11 truth have not been referenced here. Chavez & Ahmadetc. are Johnnies- ... oh well, you understand... come-lately. Castro is the dean of their school, with many more crimes on his conscience, you should pardon the expression. And if you want lefties and US-haters doing serious suck-up, well look at the Cuban case. (Including some prominent individuals in my own profession, librarianship. I weep for my colleagues.)

There is a ton of material about this. Anyone who wants to google can find them, him/ herself. I won't bother.

[rwguinn]

Shaddup, Chavez (http://news.aol.com/story/_a/king-of-spain-tells-chavez-to-shut-up/20071110180709990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001?ncid=N WS00010000000001)

A leader with solid stones...:D:D

Cuban Vice President Carlos Lage backed Chavez, saying that "a president's legitimacy stems not only from his election by voters ... he must also be legitimate in the exercise of power."

say WHAT?

[RedIbis]

"Troofer" = one who claims the terror attacks of 9/11 to be an "inside job" and upon that claim, advocates positions which are beneficial to Al-Queada and the islamo-fascist movement.

This accurately describes yourself.

I do appreciate that you do not cheer the savagery of fellow troofers like Chavez and Ahmedinijad. The rest of your movement does not seem as interested in distancing itself from real fascists and dictators, however.

Labeling is a base form of prejudice. You're trying to diminish the value of honest inquiry by coming up with a silly name and then applying it to anyone who doesn't agree with you.

I wonder what a lot of the posters here would do if they were not able to use such labeling and slang.

[Good Lt]

Labeling is a base form of prejudice. You're trying to diminish the value of honest inquiry by coming up with a silly name and then applying it to anyone who doesn't agree with you.Conspiracy theories are a base form of inquiry that involve no actual honest inquiry. You're trying to diminish the value of physical evidence by coming up with a conspiracy fantasy and then applying it to every fact that you wish to remain in denial about.

[Par]

You're trying to diminish the value of honest inquiry by coming up with a silly name and then applying it to anyone who doesn't agree with you.


In what way does defining “truther” as Sword_Of_Truth has done amount to an attempt to “diminish the value of honest inquiry”?

[RedIbis]

In what way does defining “truther” as Sword_Of_Truth has done amount to an attempt to “diminish the value of honest inquiry”?

There is no such thing as the truth movement. Nor is there such a thing as a truther.

There are simply people who research, ask questions, and don't easily accept gov't disseminated illogical explanations.

It would do you guys well to drop the labeling, name calling, and general virtriol that is often vented around here. Using exasperation is a poor defense for incivility and juvenile behavior.

[1337m4n]

There is no such thing as the truth movement.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22truth+movement&btnG=Google+Search

So none of those websites exist?

[Good Lt]

No. Pay no attention to the Troof Movement. It doesn't exist.

These are not the droids you're looking for.

[RedIbis]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22truth+movement&btnG=Google+Search

So none of those websites exist?

People can call themselves whatever they want. If a bunch of kids with laptops and black hoodies want to say they're in a truth movement, so be it.

This doesn't mean that anyone who researchs and questions the official line is in any such movement.

I was speaking more to the absurdity that such labels have. I wouldn't call anyone a truther any more than I would call someone an Official Conspiracy Theorist.

Honestly, I find this namecalling stupid.

[Par]

In what way does defining “truther” as Sword_Of_Truth has done amount to an attempt to “diminish the value of honest inquiry”?There is no such thing as the truth movement. Nor is there such a thing as a truther. There are simply people who research, ask questions, and don't easily accept gov't disseminated illogical explanations. It would do you guys well to drop the labeling, name calling, and general virtriol that is often vented around here. Using exasperation is a poor defense for incivility and juvenile behavior.


With respect, that doesn’t appear to have any bearing on my question.

[Good Lt]

This doesn't mean that anyone who researches and questions the official line is in any such movement.

Was 9-11 an inside job or not?

[Par]

There is no such thing as the truth movement. Nor is there such a thing as a truther. There are simply people who research, ask questions, and don't easily accept gov't disseminated illogical explanations.


Further, you’re committing the begging the question fallacy. Whether or not the “official” account of events is false (or illogical) is precisely the question at issue. You will need to recognise and avoid this fallacy in future if you are to have any hope of the honest inquiry you purport to espouse.

[RedIbis]

With respect, that doesn’t appear to have any bearing on my question.

Sure it does. You're attempting to frame the conditions of debate by labeling your opponent, thereby associating him or her with any illogical theories promoted by that group.

In other words, if you really want to engage in productive debate (which I assume you do since you willingly participate in this forum) try not offending your opponent with prejudicial labeling.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

There is no such thing as the truth movement. Nor is there such a thing as a truther.

Now you're just lying out your poop-chute.

The goal of the TM, as I understand it, is to get a new investigation, which is supposed to expose the truth for all to see.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I believe what Red Ibis is trying to say, is that by being quick on the draw to label someone as a "truther" (or any varient thereof) the image is presented of poisoning the well even if that is not the intent. It is a point that has some merit. Terms like "twoofer" and what not are fine for humorous tangents; but using such terms during actual discussion/debate is little different from other debates where terms like "Darwanists" are thrown about.

[Zlaya]

I am outraged, I tell you... let's do some "false flag" operations to get people pissed off enough at Venezuela to go to war (and steal their oil)...
~~~~~~

Seriously though, what is up with this "armed group"? For all we know this "armed group" was CIA backed and deliberately stirring up anti-Chavez sentiments...

For all we know, this could just be something like Operation Gladio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

Where is the proof that Chavez was behind this?

This was probably done by the those same guys who were caught in Iraq, with fake beards, explosives in their trucks, shooting Iraqi police dressed as arab 'terrorists'.

Remember that? No, you don't do you... Do you remember how the british stormed the jail in Iraq to free them?

Most people here wouldn't recognize false flag terrorism if it hit them in the ass.

[RedIbis]

I believe what Red Ibis is trying to say, is that by being quick on the draw to label someone as a "truther" (or any varient thereof) the image is presented of poisoning the well even if that is not the intent. It is a point that has some merit. Terms like "twoofer" and what not are fine for humorous tangents; but using such terms during actual discussion/debate is little different from other debates where terms like "Darwanists" are thrown about.

Exactly.

[dudalb]

Chavez is not a nice fellow. He's not really a truther you know; He just sees anything that sews unrest in America as being a good thing for him. He's USING them. Just like he used Cindy Sheehan. And if he uses them up? He doesn't care.

Correct. Although the fact the the Truthers tend to fawn all over Chavez just adds to my comtempt to them.
Ben,you must take a fair amount of heat from others on the Left for citicisng Chavez.