A possible answer to Totovader's challenge?

[1337m4n]

So I was chatting with a conspiracy-believing friend of mine, and at one point I asked him pretty much what Totovader asks in his Youtube Challenge. I asked him what proof would make him switch sides. After listening to him babble about a dozen or so typical Truther talking points, I got him to narrow his requirements down to these:

1) Air traffic controller confirmation that Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 each took off, but vanished at the time and location where the official story says they crashed.

2) Conclusive proof that at least one hijacker on each flight was affiliated with al-Quaeda (and was on board).




I expect he'll find some way to craft an unfalsifiable claim out of whatever evidence I present to him, but it's worth a shot. Any idea where I might find this kind of data?

[Totovader]

So I was chatting with a conspiracy-believing friend of mine, and at one point I asked him pretty much what Totovader asks in his Youtube Challenge. I asked him what proof would make him switch sides. After listening to him babble about a dozen or so typical Truther talking points, I got him to narrow his requirements down to these:

1) Air traffic controller confirmation that Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 each took off, but vanished at the time and location where the official story says they crashed.

2) Conclusive proof that at least one hijacker on each flight was affiliated with al-Quaeda (and was on board).




I expect he'll find some way to craft an unfalsifiable claim out of whatever evidence I present to him, but it's worth a shot. Any idea where I might find this kind of data?


1) Doesn't seem that unreasonable- although I find it difficult to expect that this individual would require the same level of proof in other aspects of their life- although the time and location of the crash will not necessarily be available according to the ATC IIRC because of the transponder issue- at some point it will have to be correlated via radar.

2) Is a bit more ridiculous- and subsequently easier to solve: DNA, passports, hijacker tapes, cockpit recordings, the phone calls (although not supportive of the Al-Qaeda connection, would still confirm a portion of the known events). As for directly linking them to Al-Qaeda... I guess years of FBI work would have to be brought up, which the individual would probably quickly dismiss without reason.



Edit: These are probably the most reasonable responses I have seen yet, however.

[Malamule]

It's just easier to find new friends. All of that information is available, it's more nuanced than a single answer though. Besides, why does it have to be one hijacker on each flight? Wouldn't it be enough that any plane was hijacked? What would be the odds that AQ would accidently hijack an airplane the same day the US gov't was MIHOPPING an event?

[apathoid]

1) PM CheapShot

2) http://www.911myths.com/911_Manifests.zip

[MikeW]

2) Conclusive proof that at least one hijacker on each flight was affiliated with al-Quaeda (and was on board).
As you say, I think that leaves the option open just to say "ah, that's not conclusive" to anything you offer. But you could try pointing him to the various hijackers videos (http://911myths.com/index.php/The_Hijackers#Videos), and I've just uploaded some clips from al Qaeda video where they talk about training, how bin Laden kept in touch with what was going on, mention and show footage of some of the hijackers, and more (http://911myths.com/index.php/Responsibility).

[Gravy]

So I was chatting with a conspiracy-believing friend of mine, and at one point I asked him pretty much what Totovader asks in his Youtube Challenge. I asked him what proof would make him switch sides. After listening to him babble about a dozen or so typical Truther talking points, I got him to narrow his requirements down to these:

1) Air traffic controller confirmation that Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 each took off, but vanished at the time and location where the official story says they crashed.Mucho info here (page updated tonight) Info on NORAD, FAA, NTSB, Aircraft capabilities, Piloting issues, War games (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/norad%2Cfaa%2Cntsb%2Caircraftcapabilities%2Cpilo)

2) Conclusive proof that at least one hijacker on each flight was affiliated with al-Quaeda (and was on board).MikeW's got that covered.

[LashL]

Let us know what response you get from your friend, 1337m4n.

[cisco]

1337m4n, how did this turn out? It looks like ample evidence was supplied.

[1337m4n]

Not bad...he seems to have dropped all forms of "-OP" theories and talks LIHOI (incompetence and negligence) theories, at least when he talks about 9/11 at all (he doesn't mention it much anymore). Although I don't hear from him much so I could be mistaken.

My guess is he got bored with the "Truth" Movement.

[cisco]

Some people just seem predisposed to believe this stuff. I really think it's an issue of honesty, integrity, and [lack of] education.

I have a friend who got sucked into the trooth awhile back and eventually I was able to debunk every point he brought up so he dropped it. I thought he was cured but he recently saw 'Zeitgeist' and he's practically frothing at the mouth now. I started to debunk it for him but this time around he was more rabid; started attacking and insulting me and arguing heavily from incredulity. To each factual point he would just respond "that's your opinion, you don't know, it just doesn't add up," etc.

I actually don't think we're friends anymore. And I really liked this guy. Very cool guy otherwise.

[LashL]

Thanks, 1337m4n and cisco, for those personal anecdotes.

I find it very interesting to hear about the responses that people get when they provide accurate information debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories in real life with people that they actually know personally. I don't know any 9/11 conspiracy theorists personally, so it has always intrigued me to hear about how these things have turned out.

Several of my friends know that I spend time researching the events of 9/11 to try to do my small part in debunking the associated conspiracy theories, and while they find it a laudable goal, most of them don't know any 9/11 conspiracy theorists, either (In fact, 99% of them don't even know that the truth™ movement exists.)

Just the other day, though, a friend of my beau's mentioned to my beau that he had a couple of questions about the events of 9/11. He seemed uncomfortable and somewhat embarrassed, and he prefaced it with, "I know you don't buy into conspiracy theories at all..." followed by "but I have a couple of questions that I was hoping your girlfriend could answer for me."

Thanks to the wealth of information on this sub-forum, a quick and excellent PM response from gumboot, some minimal additions on my part to specific portions of Gravy's latest paper, 9/11 Myths, and Debunking911, and some tweaking to keep my answer strictly relevant to the questions asked, I was able to quickly put together a detailed and well-sourced response to this fellow's questions.

I am now awaiting, with great interest, his response and reaction. I do not get the impression that he is a full-blown woo but rather someone with genuine questions. I could be wrong, but I guess I will soon find out.

Anyway, thanks again for those stories. Much appreciated.