How did Jeremy Glick's phone call last til 11:43:49am?

[TC329]

And Todd Beamer's until 10:49:29am? (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html)

[pomeroo]

And Todd Beamer's until 10:49:29am? (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html)


Either someone made a mistake with the chronology or members of the U.S. government orchestrated devastating attacks for no particular purpose.

[Good Lt]

I'm inclined to believe the latter for no particular reason.

This is the smoking gun.

:shocked:

[CHF]

How did Jeremy Glick's phone call last til 11:43:49am?
And Todd Beamer's until 10:49:29am? (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html)

I guess it's the guv doing weird stuff for no reason other than to confuse brave truthseekers like yourself.

Don't be fooled: stay focused on the laser beams and thermite!

[A W Smith]

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010922gtenat4p4.asp



She heard Beamer saying, "God help me. Jesus help me." He addressed his cohorts, still calm, saying, "Are you ready? OK," Jefferson said. She did not complete the phrase that Lisa Beamer relayed in an earlier interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette in which she quoted her husband using a family catch phrase: "Are you guys ready? Let's roll!"
"That's the last I heard from Todd Beamer," Jefferson said. "The line was still open, but it was silent."
For the next 15 minutes, Jefferson stayed on the line. As Verizon's operations staff told her that the plane had gone down.
"At that point, I was very upset and emotional," Jefferson said. "I was crying." She took no more calls that day.

[beachnut]

And Todd Beamer's until 10:49:29am? (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html)

How did Jeremy Glick's phone call last til 11:43:49am?


LINE LEFT OPEN!!!!!!!! (better research will result in better posts)

[beachnut]

LINE LEFT OPEN

This means the line was still open for over an hour! The people still died, but the phone line was left open. You could fill a book with what TC329 does not know about phones and communication; let alone 9/11.

[chipmunk stew]

Either someone made a mistake with the chronology or members of the U.S. government orchestrated devastating attacks for no particular purpose.
False dichotomy. The time might also have been tampered with by the Discordians.

[OldTigerCub]

And here I thought that a misdirected space beam had caused a shift in the time-space continuum when it bounce off of WTC7 and struck a communications satellite at precisely the moment that Flight 93 landed in Cleveland...or maybe that's too simple of an answer....:p

[Calcas]

Terrorcell, where have you been?

If this is the best you can bring than you should stay at lcf or wherever they cater to your delusions.

I'm *almost* surprised you would even post such nonsense.

[Mancman]

Because 9/11 was an inside job, duh.

[Gravy]

The coward returns!

Seventh time, Dom: tell us, right now, what these people and agencies have said about your flight 93 claims.

Shanksville Volunteer Fire Co
Shanksville, PA 15560
(814) 267-4737
Terry Schaffer, Fire Chief
Rick King, Assistant Chief

Somerset County Coroner's Office
555 Tayman Avenue, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-6900
Wallace Miller, Coroner

Somerset County Emergency Services
100 East Union Street, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-1515

WESTMORELAND COUNTY
DEPARTMENT OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT
12 Court House Square
Greensburg, PA 15601
724-600-7300

Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency
Harrisburg, PA 17101
(717) 651-2001

Paul Sledzik, Curator Armed Forces Institute of Pathology National Museum of Health and Medicine
Leader of flight 93 Disaster Mortuary (Team DMORT)
202-782-2204 sledzik@email.afip.osd.mil

Disaster Mortuary Team Main office: 1-800-USA-NDMS, ext. 205
DMORT Region 3 office (includes Pennsylvania) 410-676-4600

Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat
Chief Scientific Advisor to Somerset County Coroner's office in the flight 93 investigation
Director, Applied Forensic Sciences Department
Mercyhurst College
501 E. 38th St.
Erie, PA 16546
dirkmaat@mercyhurst.edu
(814) 824-2105

[boloboffin]

IIRC, according to "Among The Heroes," Lyz Glick passed the phone to her father after Jeremy went to join the fight. The father walked outside and stood by a fence. The FBI broke onto the line, asking him to stay on because it was one of the only calls left connected to the flight. He did so for about two hours in the same position. Then he hung up.

I should stop being surprised at what Truthers want to cast in a sinister light.

[twinstead]

I should stop being surprised at what Truthers want to cast in a sinister light.

Well, it would be easier to stop being surprised if they wouldn't keep casting mundane and expected things in a sinister light...

[fuelair]

Give a Troofer an enema and there will be nothing left.

[Slayhamlet]

Wow. Is this your best stuff, TC? The latest smoking gun?

:dl:

[JAStewart]

Debunked in 40 minutes.

[qarnos]

Debunked in 40 minutes.

I've seen better. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=85234)

[jhunter1163]

I'll add this to the JREF record book.

Fastest debunk: 32 minutes* (A W Smith)

Fastest ban at LCF: 3 minutes** (Coritani, Digest and Mr. Herbert)

Most (rule10)s in a single post: 21 (don't remember who did that)

* - I'm sure there have been faster ones, but I'm not going to search 10,000 threads for them

** - Bell was banned before making a post at PFT, and T.A.M. was banned before making a post at LCF, but someone had created an account with his name

Jhunter1163, Official JREF Statistician

[Bell]

I thought this was the fasted debunk:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=98267

That video debunked itself!

[chillzero]

Please remember to be civil, and to discuss the topic raised by the thread. Do not personalise the discussion.

[Coffee]

I knew it! The link helps prove the "cell phones are tools of evil" theory!
When will you people wake up and realize that cell phones are part of a great mind control conspiracy heaped upon us by the Crystalline Entity, Sleestaks and the Snorks !!!! They have combined their efforts to control us all!!! Get with it people and know your enemy! KNOW YOUR ENEMY!

[Brainster]

And on average, the two phone calls lasted until 11:11:11.

111111!

[8den]

Most (rule10)s in a single post: 21 (don't remember who did that)


I think that was me.

My mum is so proud of me.

[peteweaver]

And Todd Beamer's until 10:49:29am? (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html)

How did you come to the mistaken conclusion that 9/11 was an inside job ?

[Mancman]

I'll add this to the JREF record book.

Fastest debunk: 32 minutes* (A W Smith)

Fastest ban at LCF: 3 minutes** (Coritani, Digest and Mr. Herbert)

Most (rule10)s in a single post: 21 (don't remember who did that)

* - I'm sure there have been faster ones, but I'm not going to search 10,000 threads for them

** - Bell was banned before making a post at PFT, and T.A.M. was banned before making a post at LCF, but someone had created an account with his name

Jhunter1163, Official JREF Statistician

17 minute debunk: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75081 ;)

[BenBurch]

Heh. The conspiracy here is that cell phone companies rip people off when only one side of a call disconnects.

[jhunter1163]

Updated:

Fastest debunk: 17 minutes (Mancman)

Fastest ban at LCF: 3 minutes* (Coritani, Digest and Mr. Herbert)

Most (rule10)s in a single post: 21 (8den)

* - Bell was banned before making a post at PFT, and T.A.M. was banned before making a post at LCF, but someone had created an account with his name

If anyone would like to suggest additional categories, please feel free.

Jhunter1163, Official JREF Statistician

[LashL]

17 minute debunk: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=75081 ;)

Ah, yes. I remember that one. Nice work, Mancman.

[TC329]

LINE LEFT OPEN

This means the line was still open for over an hour! The people still died, but the phone line was left open. You could fill a book with what TC329 does not know about phones and communication; let alone 9/11.

The time is the phone call from the plane not the operator to the plane. In order for it to "remain open" there has to be a connection or the call is "closed". This isn't the timing from the 911 Operator to Flight 93.

[slyjoe]

The time is the phone call from the plane not the operator to the plane. In order for it to "remain open" there has to be a connection or the call is "closed". This isn't the timing from the 911 Operator to Flight 93.

Wrong. The connection is open as long as the network says it is open.

[BenBurch]

The time is the phone call from the plane not the operator to the plane. In order for it to "remain open" there has to be a connection or the call is "closed". This isn't the timing from the 911 Operator to Flight 93.

Nope. I've designed telephone switches, and this is just not how it typically works. If you get what is called "disconnect supervision" you can terminate a connection when either side drops, but if you don't, then you can hang for hours. Various mechanisms try to fix this, but the phone network is a multivendor solution...

[apathoid]

The time is the phone call from the plane not the operator to the plane. In order for it to "remain open" there has to be a connection or the call is "closed". This isn't the timing from the 911 Operator to Flight 93.



And exactly how did you determine this? Please don't say: "it's obvious" or "common sense" or "clearly....". Something remotely technical or factual would be nice....

[TC329]

The coward returns!

Seventh time, Dom: tell us, right now, what these people and agencies have said about your flight 93 claims.

Ohhhhhh first the King Nazi himself takes a moment to give me a personal attack! Thanks for opening the door so I could repay a compliment.

Then he forgets that I'm supposed to be on ignore because he claims he can't see me everytime I ask questions he doesn't want to answer.

But the real irony is he has the audacity to call me a coward after repeatedly hiding from an actual Shanksville debate with me.

So let's address what Mark doesn't want to :

1) Is UA93 approaches on a Southeast approach then how does the debris scatter southwest?

2) If 90% of the plane is inside the crater then how can the debris be scatteret in a southwest direction for 3-4 miles?

3) If the debris is scattered in a southwest direction then how are they 2 seperate debris fields to the southeast?

4) How can there be a seperate debris field 2 miles Southeast in Indian Lake?

5) How can there be a seperate debris field 8 miles Southeast in New Baltimore?

6) Why are Johnstown Air Traffic controllers who worked that morning under gag orders?

7) Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators who worked that morning under gag orders?

8) Why did the FBI have to set up sites in Indian Lake and New Baltimore for residents to bring all the "fuselage" debris to? I say fuselage because it was little silver/grey chunks like seen in the Shanksville area along with a black webbing like material.

9) How could human remains be recovered from Indian Lake?

10) What plane flew over Val McClatchey's house?

11) What plane flew over Susan McElwain?

12) What plane approached from Indian Lake before the crash?

13) Why did the FBI confiscate and classify the West Moreland County 911 call received from Ed Felt that morning?

14) How did so many area residents report hearing "bangs, like explosions" before the plane crashed?

15) Why does Lee Purbaugh insist there wasn't any blue on the plane he saw and he saw it flying right side up and that it was a dark grey color?


ETA : BTW, I called your list..... lol

[TC329]

Wrong. The connection is open as long as the network says it is open.

You can't connect to something that no longer exists.

[slyjoe]

You can't connect to something that no longer exists.

I don't think you know what the word "connection" means in a telephone switch context.

[peteweaver]

1) why do 'truth' seeker sites always contain lies, spin, and misquoted information?
2) why do 'truth' videos, do the same.
3) how much money is being made in the name of 'truth'?
4) have you ever questioned the 'truth' industry ?
5) 19 men with knives hijacked airliners; on a scale of one to ten, what chance do you think of defending himself, does a pilot have when he's sat down flying a plane, and has his back to his assailant ?

[BenBurch]

You can't connect to something that no longer exists.

The question, Einstein, is whether the NETWORK knows that the originating station is gone.

It doesn't.

[BenBurch]

I don't think you know what the word "connection" means in a telephone switch context.

At the termination sides we refer to "seizing the line", but from switch to switch we have a connection. The defect occurs in this case at the termination.

[BenBurch]

You can take a Western Electric Candlestick dial phone from 1919 and with a change of connector you can usually actually successfully connect it to a residential line and make a call with it today. (The dial pulse rate changed and got faster at some point, and there are so few older phones now that some equipment ((Notably the SLC)) can no longer handle the lower rate.)

The phone network itself is absolutely not at all like the technology of 1919, fiber optics, digital switches, etc. But at all times the network had to be backwards-compatible unless there was a DAMNED good reason as there was so much installed base of switching and other gear.

But at your end, at the end of your POTS line, it is still 1919.

[uk_dave]

But at your end, at the end of your POTS line, it is still 1919.

Like a time machine? Cool.....:D

[CFLarsen]

And Todd Beamer's until 10:49:29am? (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200055.html)

What do you think happened to Glick and Beamer?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You can't connect to something that no longer exists.


No, but you can think you're still connected to something that you were connected to previously.

This probably isn't an accurate analogy, but I've had numerous occasions where my Internet connection would crap out while I was chatting online with a friend. In these situations, they would never even know I had been disconnected until I started bitching about it.

[Pardalis]

Oh, looky here, Terrorcell is anomaly hunting! :rolleyes:

[TC329]

No, but you can think you're still connected to something that you were connected to previously.

But the time isn't the operators call to the plane, it is the time logged from the phone on the plane to the recipient. Therefor the phone on the plane is still live and has a connection.

[TC329]

Oh, looky here, Terrorcell is anomaly hunting! :rolleyes:

Ohhhhh, looky here, so far in this thread only 1 JREF member has been able to remain on topic and actually offer up some sort of contribution.

Of course I'm not talking about you.

[Jonnyclueless]

Ohhhhhh first the King Nazi himself takes a moment to give me a personal attack! Thanks for opening the door so I could repay a compliment.

Then he forgets that I'm supposed to be on ignore because he claims he can't see me everytime I ask questions he doesn't want to answer.

But the real irony is he has the audacity to call me a coward after repeatedly hiding from an actual Shanksville debate with me.

So let's address what Mark doesn't want to :

1) Is UA93 approaches on a Southeast approach then how does the debris scatter southwest?

2) If 90% of the plane is inside the crater then how can the debris be scatteret in a southwest direction for 3-4 miles?

3) If the debris is scattered in a southwest direction then how are they 2 seperate debris fields to the southeast?

4) How can there be a seperate debris field 2 miles Southeast in Indian Lake?

5) How can there be a seperate debris field 8 miles Southeast in New Baltimore?

6) Why are Johnstown Air Traffic controllers who worked that morning under gag orders?

7) Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators who worked that morning under gag orders?

8) Why did the FBI have to set up sites in Indian Lake and New Baltimore for residents to bring all the "fuselage" debris to? I say fuselage because it was little silver/grey chunks like seen in the Shanksville area along with a black webbing like material.

9) How could human remains be recovered from Indian Lake?

10) What plane flew over Val McClatchey's house?

11) What plane flew over Susan McElwain?

12) What plane approached from Indian Lake before the crash?

13) Why did the FBI confiscate and classify the West Moreland County 911 call received from Ed Felt that morning?

14) How did so many area residents report hearing "bangs, like explosions" before the plane crashed?

15) Why does Lee Purbaugh insist there wasn't any blue on the plane he saw and he saw it flying right side up and that it was a dark grey color?


ETA : BTW, I called your list..... lol

1 Wind
2. Wind.
3. There aren't.
4. There sn't.
5. There isn't.
6. Why can't you actually prove there is a gag order?
7. Why can't you prove there is a gag order?
8. There was nothing there more than light stuff that blew in the wind. No fuselage.
9. They weren't.
10. What does it matter?
11. What does it matter?
12. What does it matter? There were known planes in the area.
13. Why can't you provide proof of this? How many 9/11 calls are made public? How many which are part of an ongoing federal investigation are made public? When do they NOT confiscate such tapes in an ongoing investigation?
14. How would residents be able to distibguish between before and after the crash?
15. Who knows, it's eye witness testimony and people rarely remember things exactly as they are. There are 1000s of reasons.


Can these Wooers come up with some new conspiracy issues? These ones are really getting boring.

[Pardalis]

Have some respect for the dead, Terrorcell.

[Jonnyclueless]

But the time isn't the operators call to the plane, it is the time logged from the phone on the plane to the recipient. Therefor the phone on the plane is still live and has a connection.

Wrong. It doesn't matter. The connection on the receiving end, which is used to determine the call time, is not aware that the original phone is gone. Or are you going to try and suggest that the time figure came from the physical phone on board the plane? lol!

[BenBurch]

But the time isn't the operators call to the plane, it is the time logged from the phone on the plane to the recipient. Therefor the phone on the plane is still live and has a connection.

Look, Edison, the phone is a stupid instrument. It knows nothing! It remembers nothing! It says nothing!

http://www.wklh.com/pod/PODCAST_IMAGE_110.jpg

It does not tell the network ANYTHING about call duration, that is the responsibility of the originating switch's call supervision elements.

[NDBoston]

Have some respect for the dead, Terrorcell.
TC is more concerned with selling a future DVD on the subject. Any facts that discredit his insane theories won't help sales and get ignored.

[TC329]

Wrong. It doesn't matter. The connection on the receiving end, which is used to determine the call time, is not aware that the original phone is gone. Or are you going to try and suggest that the time figure came from the physical phone on board the plane? lol!

All phone calls presented in evidence are logs of phone calls going off of the planes. They list what time the call initiated and what time it ended. They are there for every single phone call.

Everyone that is, except Ed Felt's who phone call is classified and everyone involved with are under gag orders.

[TC329]

TC is more concerned with selling a DVD on the subject. Any facts that discredit his insane theories won't help sales and get ignored.


Proof or apology?

You need to bring one of those to this thread.

[BenBurch]

Proof or apology?

You need to bring one of those to this thread.

The moment you bring some intellect. 'k?

[Gravy]

But the time isn't the operators call to the plane, it is the time logged from the phone on the plane to the recipient. Therefor the phone on the plane is still live and has a connection.Why don't you see if those sneaky bastards Glick and Beamer paid the credit card bills?

Oh, that's right, Beamer didn't use a credit card to speak to Lisa Jefferson, the operator.

Okay, I have another idea. If you don't think flight 93 crashed there, why don't you talk to the people who collected and identified Beamer and Glick's remains? This is only the eighth time I'm giving you this information.

Somerset County Coroner's Office
555 Tayman Avenue, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-6900
Wallace Miller, Coroner

Paul Sledzik, Curator Armed Forces Institute of Pathology National Museum of Health and Medicine
Leader of flight 93 Disaster Mortuary (Team DMORT)
202-782-2204 sledzik@email.afip.osd.mil

Disaster Mortuary Team Main office: 1-800-USA-NDMS, ext. 205
DMORT Region 3 office (includes Pennsylvania) 410-676-4600

Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat
Chief Scientific Advisor to Somerset County Coroner's office in the flight 93 investigation
Director, Applied Forensic Sciences Department
Mercyhurst College
501 E. 38th St.
Erie, PA 16546
dirkmaat@mercyhurst.edu
(814) 824-2105

What seems to be the problem, Dom?

And what happened to the visit you said you had scheduled with Wally Miller, months ago?

What happened, Dom? Why are you afraid to speak to the people who were there and did the work? Are your fantasies really more important than reality? Do your delusions really matter more than what real people, in the real world, experienced?

What's going on, Dom? Where's your honesty? Where's your honor? Where's your decency? Where's your intelligence?

Where's your courage, Dom?

[Jonnyclueless]

All phone calls presented in evidence are logs of phone calls going off of the planes. They list what time the call initiated and what time it ended. They are there for every single phone call.

Everyone that is, except Ed Felt's who phone call is classified and everyone involved with are under gag orders.

Your first comment has no point to the discussion. And you have yet to provide any evidence that there is a gag order.

[Gravy]

March, 2007, after running away in terror from this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2467452&postcount=35):

Perhaps I should remain silent and just wait until I release my final presentation?

It won't be long Gravy, I think you're really going to enjoy it. :D

It's been long, Dom. And you've produced no work since you promised to a year ago. Yet you still whine away.

What happened, Dom? Having some problems reconciling your delusions with reality?

[CFLarsen]

TC329,

What do you think happened to Glick and Beamer?

[Jonnyclueless]

And then there was silence...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

All phone calls presented in evidence are logs of phone calls going off of the planes. They list what time the call initiated and what time it ended. They are there for every single phone call.


Damnit, man... Do you really think that these times represent the time the initiating device was active? No, they're the times that the connections were open. You can have an open-but-inactive connection even if one end of that connection is no longer available.

[BenBurch]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Snodgrass_Gryllus_assimilis.png/466px-Snodgrass_Gryllus_assimilis.png

[NDBoston]

Proof or apology?

You need to bring one of those to this thread.

Here you go Dom:

From today's Loose Change forum on a discussion regarding LCFC:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19071

QUOTE (8bitagent @ Nov 11 2007, 12:32 PM)
No real investigation into Shanksville besides the mayor. I am aware of truthers who have gotten Shanksville people to talk on camera about UAV's, plane parts on their roof, debris field in New Baltimore, and all sorts of anomalies. I wanna see a documentary on these people and what has been uncovered.

and your response Dom

I promise you that you will see one in the near future.

[pomeroo]

Ohhhhhh first the King Nazi himself takes a moment to give me a personal attack! Thanks for opening the door so I could repay a compliment.

Then he forgets that I'm supposed to be on ignore because he claims he can't see me everytime I ask questions he doesn't want to answer.

But the real irony is he has the audacity to call me a coward after repeatedly hiding from an actual Shanksville debate with me.

So let's address what Mark doesn't want to :

1) Is UA93 approaches on a Southeast approach then how does the debris scatter southwest?

2) If 90% of the plane is inside the crater then how can the debris be scatteret in a southwest direction for 3-4 miles?

3) If the debris is scattered in a southwest direction then how are they 2 seperate debris fields to the southeast?

4) How can there be a seperate debris field 2 miles Southeast in Indian Lake?

5) How can there be a seperate debris field 8 miles Southeast in New Baltimore?

6) Why are Johnstown Air Traffic controllers who worked that morning under gag orders?

7) Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators who worked that morning under gag orders?

8) Why did the FBI have to set up sites in Indian Lake and New Baltimore for residents to bring all the "fuselage" debris to? I say fuselage because it was little silver/grey chunks like seen in the Shanksville area along with a black webbing like material.

9) How could human remains be recovered from Indian Lake?

10) What plane flew over Val McClatchey's house?

11) What plane flew over Susan McElwain?

12) What plane approached from Indian Lake before the crash?

13) Why did the FBI confiscate and classify the West Moreland County 911 call received from Ed Felt that morning?

14) How did so many area residents report hearing "bangs, like explosions" before the plane crashed?

15) Why does Lee Purbaugh insist there wasn't any blue on the plane he saw and he saw it flying right side up and that it was a dark grey color?


ETA : BTW, I called your list..... lol


16) Why do the loons pretend that the military shot down a plane that the military acknowledges its failure to shoot down?

17) Seriously?

18) Why wasn't military right to have shot down Flight 93 before it reached its target?

19) Why can't conspiracy liars get their stories straight?

20) Why can't we figure out why you're claiming that there really was no stand-down after screaming for years about a stand-down?

[boloboffin]

That's what gets me, Ron. The government has already admitted that the order was given to shoot down Flight 93. If they had done it, why wouldn't they admit it? As powerful as Bush's speech that night was, can you imagine how much more powerful it would have been if he gritted his teeth while talking about having been forced to shoot down American citizens?

Truthers just don't consider the real-world consequences of the things they allege.

[pomeroo]

That's what gets me, Ron. The government has already admitted that the order was given to shoot down Flight 93. If they had done it, why wouldn't they admit it? As powerful as Bush's speech that night was, can you imagine how much more powerful it would have been if he gritted his teeth while talking about having been forced to shoot down American citizens?

Truthers just don't consider the real-world consequences of the things they allege.


It infuriates me. These loons babble on and their stories contradict each other. They can't bother to assemble a coherent narrative.

[Gravy]

It infuriates me. These loons babble on and their stories contradict each other. They can't bother to assemble a coherent narrative.What's so odd is that even when this is demonstrated to them, such as I did to TC329 back in March (some examples below), they can't make the corrections. Because their claims have to be right, they need not make any sense at all.

In a thread he started as "Terrorcell" at the Loose Change forum, he said,

"Flight 93 doesn't have to be the plane shot down in PA. I personally believe AA11 was the plane shot down in PA."

Yet in the same thread, a few posts later, he said this about the possibility of a passenger takeover/shootdown/Shanksville crash of flight 93:

"From what is known I would believe that to be a rather accurate account."


Let's recap. You have posited that:
Fiight 93 was shot down in PA, passenger remains were recovered. Evidence from the scene is real. The other three flights contained CIA agents and crew, not the passengers on the manifests. Phone calls from passengers and crew were faked. Investigation into "passengers" needed.
Flight 11 was shot down in PA.
Flight 93 was shot down in PA after passengers regained control of the plane from hijackers, necessitating, for some reason, that it be shot down.
Flight 93 landed in Cleveland.
"The plane in Shanksville hit its target," whatever that means.
Currently: flight 93's disposition unknown. Some other plane crashed at Shanksville, all evidence to the contrary is faked. First responders and investigators are liars.Reading that list is so disturbing to me that I actually get chills. It is the product of an agonized mind.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2467452&postcount=35

[BenBurch]

It bothered me for a while why Rumsfeld said that it was shot down. Twice. Probably because I wanted to think we could manage to get it right one time out of four.

But then I remembered that he wanted us to spend money on a defense system against the possibility of ET attacks...

[Pardalis]

It infuriates me. These loons babble on and their stories contradict each other. They can't bother to assemble a coherent narrative.

That,s the whole problem with denialists.

They claim they only ask questions, therefore they are not accountable themselves for making any sense. They also put themselves in a situation in which there will forever be sufficiant doubt about the official story for their theories to have some hold. What they really want is not the answer to their questions, but they want the doubt to persist.

Since they are asking the American government to make another investigation on themselves, which the Truthers know will never happen, the American government will always be guilty of hiding something, therefore the doubt will persist.

The only problem here is that Truthers are not just asking questions: "9/11 is an inside job" is an accusation. It's a claim. Therefore it is valid for us skeptics to ask them to be logical and consistent.

ETA: in other words, they do not want to solve the problem, they want people to think there is a problem, and they want to keep that problem unsolved or unsolvable.

[Hyperviolet]

What's so odd is that even when this is demonstrated to them, such as I did to TC329 back in March (some examples below), they can't make the corrections. Because their claims have to be right, they need not make any sense at all.

In a thread he started as "Terrorcell" at the Loose Change forum, he said,

"Flight 93 doesn't have to be the plane shot down in PA. I personally believe AA11 was the plane shot down in PA."

Yet in the same thread, a few posts later, he said this about the possibility of a passenger takeover/shootdown/Shanksville crash of flight 93:

"From what is known I would believe that to be a rather accurate account."



I remember you posted this a while back, Gravy.

The recap is just breathtaking.

Reading that list is so disturbing to me that I actually get chills. It is the product of an agonized mind.
:dl:

[TC329]

Why don't you see if those sneaky bastards Glick and Beamer paid the credit card bills?

Oh, that's right, Beamer didn't use a credit card to speak to Lisa Jefferson, the operator.

Okay, I have another idea. If you don't think flight 93 crashed there, why don't you talk to the people who collected and identified Beamer and Glick's remains? This is only the eighth time I'm giving you this information.

Somerset County Coroner's Office
555 Tayman Avenue, Somerset, PA 15501
(814) 445-6900
Wallace Miller, Coroner

Paul Sledzik, Curator Armed Forces Institute of Pathology National Museum of Health and Medicine
Leader of flight 93 Disaster Mortuary (Team DMORT)
202-782-2204 sledzik@email.afip.osd.mil

Disaster Mortuary Team Main office: 1-800-USA-NDMS, ext. 205
DMORT Region 3 office (includes Pennsylvania) 410-676-4600

Dr. Dennis C. Dirkmaat
Chief Scientific Advisor to Somerset County Coroner's office in the flight 93 investigation
Director, Applied Forensic Sciences Department
Mercyhurst College
501 E. 38th St.
Erie, PA 16546
dirkmaat@mercyhurst.edu
(814) 824-2105

What seems to be the problem, Dom?

And what happened to the visit you said you had scheduled with Wally Miller, months ago?

What happened, Dom? Why are you afraid to speak to the people who were there and did the work? Are your fantasies really more important than reality? Do your delusions really matter more than what real people, in the real world, experienced?

What's going on, Dom? Where's your honesty? Where's your honor? Where's your decency? Where's your intelligence?

Where's your courage, Dom?


Wally Miller "wasn't there" and avoids me Mark. I'm sure it's doesn't mean he's afraid to answer a few simple questions about the remains he collected from Indian Lake or about the photo's he took there as well.

Get a clue Roberts. Go call you're handlers, you're way out of the loop.. :p

[TC329]

Here you go Dom:

From today's Loose Change forum on a discussion regarding LCFC:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19071



and your response Dom

Proof that I am selling/profitting?

To date I do not sell anything 9/11 related. I have spent thousands of dollars in trips to Shanksville and have not charged anyone a single penny. When I am finished I will not charge anyone a penny either. I will release independent interviews like the one of Susan McElwain along with a compilation/documentary of the interviews. I will also release the entire unedited interviews to avoid all claims of taking anything out of context or misrepresenting an eyewitness.

Earlier I believed I asked for proof I will be profitting or an apology.

[Jonnyclueless]

Well if Wally avoids you, then that clearly proves that flight 93 and flight 11 were shot down in PA while hitting their target after passengers regained control AND landed in Cleveland.

Hey, don't attack me, I am just reading questions.

[Gravy]

Wally Miller "wasn't there" and avoids me Mark. I'm sure it's doesn't mean he's afraid to answer a few simple questions about the remains he collected from Indian Lake or about the photo's he took there as well.

Get a clue Roberts. Go call you're handlers, you're way out of the loop.. :p

How about Paul Sledzik, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Dennis Dirkmaat, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Rick Lohr, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about these first responders, Dom, all of whom you say are liars?

• Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company,
• Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company,
• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Members of the Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. (Source: The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks pp 58-60. PDF) http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Called them liars to their faces, Dom? No? Where's your courage, Dom?

How about anyone who was there from any of these agencies on 9/11, Dom?
"King said the Red Cross has been on the scene from the beginning, providing food and water to more than 600 exhausted workers from local fire departments, FBI, ATF, NTSB, FEMA, state police and coroners' offices from around Pennsylvania.To which of them have you explained that the wreckage and body parts they collected weren't from flight 93, Dom?

How about all the witnesses, Dom? (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence%2Cman) To whom have you explained that they don't know what they're talking about?

How about the victims' families, Dom? Show your buddies in the 9/11 denial movement the courage of your convictions and tell the family members to their faces that their loved ones didn't call them and didn't try to take back the plane so that others might live.

Not man enough to admit that you're consumed by sick fantasies, Dom?

Of course you're not.

[Swing Dangler]

Any chance of getting back on topic instead of bringing up your past arguments with TC?



How about Paul Sledzik, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Dennis Dirkmaat, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Rick Lohr, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about these first responders, Dom, all of whom you say are liars?

• Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company,
• Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company,
• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Members of the Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. (Source: The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks pp 58-60. PDF) http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Called them liars to their faces, Dom? No? Where's your courage, Dom?

How about anyone who was there from any of these agencies on 9/11, Dom?
To which of them have you explained that the wreckage and body parts they collected weren't from flight 93, Dom?

How about all the witnesses, Dom? (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence%2Cman) To whom have you explained that they don't know what they're talking about?

How about the victims' families, Dom? Show your buddies in the 9/11 denial movement the courage of your convictions and tell the family members to their faces that their loved ones didn't call them and didn't try to take back the plane so that others might live.

Not man enough to admit that you're consumed by sick fantasies, Dom?

Of course you're not.

[twinstead]

Yea, let's get back on topic. But first, Swing, do YOU have an answer to Gravy's question? I'm curious as to your opinion of the first responders.

[TC329]

How about Paul Sledzik, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Dennis Dirkmaat, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Rick Lohr, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about these first responders, Dom, all of whom you say are liars?

• Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company,
• Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company,
• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Members of the Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. (Source: The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks pp 58-60. PDF) http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Called them liars to their faces, Dom? No? Where's your courage, Dom?

How about anyone who was there from any of these agencies on 9/11, Dom?
To which of them have you explained that the wreckage and body parts they collected weren't from flight 93, Dom?

How about all the witnesses, Dom? (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence%2Cman) To whom have you explained that they don't know what they're talking about?

How about the victims' families, Dom? Show your buddies in the 9/11 denial movement the courage of your convictions and tell the family members to their faces that their loved ones didn't call them and didn't try to take back the plane so that others might live.

Not man enough to admit that you're consumed by sick fantasies, Dom?

Of course you're not.


Hey Mark,

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Huh, Mark?

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?

How did Wally Miller photograph and retrieve human remains from Indian Lake, Mark?

Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?

Why do people like New Baltimore resident Melanie Hankison tell stories about the FBI setting up a site in New Baltimore for people to take the plane debris to and that it was everywhere, Mark?

How did witnesses like Michael Merringer and Laura Temyer hear explosions before the plane ever hit the ground, Mark?

What plane flew northwest over Val McClatchey's house, Mark?

What plane flew over Susan McElwain just 1.2 miles southeast of the explosion seconds before the explosion, Mark?

Is Barry Lichty a liar about the fighter jets that you don't believe were there, Mark?

Why did the FBI confiscate Ed Felt's phone call and classify it, Mark?

And how come these phone calls never terminated at 10:03 when the plane they were on is alleged to have shredded into thousands of tiny little pieces in a 20' wide 10' deep hole, Mark?


I'll debate you anytime and place just to see you squirm, Mark. :D

[TC329]

Yea, let's get back on topic. But first, Swing, do YOU have an answer to Gravy's question? I'm curious as to your opinion of the first responders.

If i believe there was a plane with 12-15 people on it (ask Mark how many people Wally identified) and it was shot down then it's hard for me to call the emergency responders liars.

I wonder if Mark thinks Lee Purbaugh is a liar because Lee says there wasn't any blue on the plane that it was all dark grey and that it was flying right side up?

Is he a liar too Mark?

Just like Susan McElwain is?

[Corsair 115]

Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?Let's assume for the moment such gag orders exist. Then perhaps you can explain how those orders have any legal force outside the United States. That is to say, such orders, if they exist, might prevent an individual from talking to U.S. media, but how on earth does it prevent an individual from talking to media from outside the U.S.? How would it prevent media from outside the U.S. reporting what they said?

[pomeroo]

Hey Mark,

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Huh, Mark?

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?

How did Wally Miller photograph and retrieve human remains from Indian Lake, Mark?

Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?

Why do people like New Baltimore resident Melanie Hankison tell stories about the FBI setting up a site in New Baltimore for people to take the plane debris to and that it was everywhere, Mark?

How did witnesses like Michael Merringer and Laura Temyer hear explosions before the plane ever hit the ground, Mark?

What plane flew northwest over Val McClatchey's house, Mark?

What plane flew over Susan McElwain just 1.2 miles southeast of the explosion seconds before the explosion, Mark?

Is Barry Lichty a liar about the fighter jets that you don't believe were there, Mark?

Why did the FBI confiscate Ed Felt's phone call and classify it, Mark?

And how come these phone calls never terminated at 10:03 when the plane they were on is alleged to have shredded into thousands of tiny little pieces in a 20' wide 10' deep hole, Mark?


I'll debate you anytime and place just to see you squirm, Mark. :D


How about 'Hardfire'?

[TC329]

Let's assume for the moment such gag orders exist. Then perhaps you can explain how those orders have any legal force outside the United States. That is to say, such orders, if they exist, might prevent an individual from talking to U.S. media, but how on earth does it prevent an individual from talking to media from outside the U.S.? How would it prevent media from outside the U.S. reporting what they said?

Why does it stop Sibel Edmonds and so many others?

Are you denying they are in the same situation regarding the same event (just different aspect)?

[WildCat]

Why does it stop Sibel Edmonds and so many others?
How is Sibel Edmonds prevented from talking? What would happen if she did talk? :rolleyes:

[TC329]

How is Sibel Edmonds prevented from talking? What would happen if she did talk? :rolleyes:

If I recall disclosing a National Secret without authorization is considered a high crime of treason which is punishable by _________ (ohhhh i forget this part, a little help? ;))

[Corsair 115]

Why does it stop Sibel Edmonds and so many others?

Are you denying they are in the same situation regarding the same event (just different aspect)?You're avoiding my simple question. How are such purported gag orders enforceable on media outside the United States? What stops anyone supposedly under such a gag order from taking a vacation to Canada, Britain, or wherever, and then sitting down for an interview with a newspaper or television reporter in that other country? How would such an order be applicable to media in Britain or Canada or wherever? How could the U.S. government and legal system force the media of another nation to not print or broadcast a report?

[Jonnyclueless]

I am still waiting for TC to at least back on just a single one of his claims. He has been asked many times, but seems to somehow miss all those questions and continue on making his accusations without backing any of them up.

Please show us this evidence of gag orders.

[apathoid]

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?


Positive ID? Such as......?
Why is the FDR no good?

How did Wally Miller photograph and retrieve human remains from Indian Lake, Mark?


Human remains were recovered from Indian lake? Source?


Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?




Yep, I'm gonna have to ask you to back this up.


Why do people like New Baltimore resident Melanie Hankison tell stories about the FBI setting up a site in New Baltimore for people to take the plane debris to and that it was everywhere, Mark?




Because, maybe because the FBI was tasked to collect evidence? FYI, FBI stands for Federal Bureau of Investigation. It's what they do.


How did witnesses like Michael Merringer and Laura Temyer hear explosions before the plane ever hit the ground, Mark?


There are always such accounts in aircraft crashes. Oh and can I see their complete statement saying as much? Thanks.


What plane flew northwest over Val McClatchey's house, Mark?

What plane flew over Susan McElwain just 1.2 miles southeast of the explosion seconds before the explosion, Mark?



United 93.......?
I give up. Which plane was it?

Is Barry Lichty a liar about the fighter jets that you don't believe were there, Mark?


Quote?



And how come these phone calls never terminated at 10:03 when the plane they were on is alleged to have shredded into thousands of tiny little pieces in a 20' wide 10' deep hole, Mark?




You've been corrected on this, repeatedly.

Your painting a very stange picture TC. Plane was shot down, and blown to smithereens, yet you're getting hung up on the phones anomaly? Or are you positing that the gummint shot down a drone for absoluetely no reason, wasting a perfectly good attack aircraft?

Please lay out your theory, 'cause I just see a jumbled mess that makes no sense.

[TC329]

You're avoiding my simple question. How are such purported gag orders enforceable on media outside the United States? What stops anyone supposedly under such a gag order from taking a vacation to Canada, Britain, or wherever, and then sitting down for an interview with a newspaper or television reporter in that other country? How would such an order be applicable to media in Britain or Canada or wherever? How could the U.S. government and legal system force the media of another nation to not print or broadcast a report?

I imagine first you would have to get permission to leave the country under such orders unless of course you're breaking out of America. Then pretty much all you would have to do is take yourself and your family away from your home and everyone you know and love to go hide in some other country to tell a media outlet something that most Americans like you are only going to call them names for mentioning.

Yeah I'm sure all it would take would be just 1 person under gag orders fleeing to another country to tell their media to break the whole thing wide open.

[pomeroo]

If I recall disclosing a National Secret without authorization is considered a high crime of treason which is punishable by _________ (ohhhh i forget this part, a little help? ;))


Sibel Edmonds alludes to incompetence and barriers between agencies. Where does she lend any credence to your fantastic conspiracy that spans all branches of government and several private industries? Does she deny that jihadists hijacked four planes and flew three of them into buildings?

[apathoid]

If I recall disclosing a National Secret without authorization is considered a high crime of treason which is punishable by _________ (ohhhh i forget this part, a little help? ;))



If she has evidence of mass murder, the thought of punishment shouldn't stop her from blowing the lid off the whole thing.

[Swing Dangler]

Mark, will you be addressing these questions?

Hey Mark,

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Huh, Mark?

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?

How did Wally Miller photograph and retrieve human remains from Indian Lake, Mark?

Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?

Why do people like New Baltimore resident Melanie Hankison tell stories about the FBI setting up a site in New Baltimore for people to take the plane debris to and that it was everywhere, Mark?

How did witnesses like Michael Merringer and Laura Temyer hear explosions before the plane ever hit the ground, Mark?

What plane flew northwest over Val McClatchey's house, Mark?

What plane flew over Susan McElwain just 1.2 miles southeast of the explosion seconds before the explosion, Mark?

Is Barry Lichty a liar about the fighter jets that you don't believe were there, Mark?

Why did the FBI confiscate Ed Felt's phone call and classify it, Mark?

And how come these phone calls never terminated at 10:03 when the plane they were on is alleged to have shredded into thousands of tiny little pieces in a 20' wide 10' deep hole, Mark?


I'll debate you anytime and place just to see you squirm, Mark. :D

[Pardalis]

Sibel Edmonds is not talking because she can't have access to FBI documents, she's under no "gag order".


http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=97404&page=2

[Jonnyclueless]

And how exactly does Sibel prove that flight 93 was shot down/was also flt11/landed in cleveland/etc?

[Jonnyclueless]

Mark, will you be addressing these questions?


Are you going to address the substantiation behind the claims, which has been requested for some time? Let's see you back up his claims Swing. Let's see your evidence of a gag order, etc.

[apathoid]

And how exactly does Sibel prove that flight 93 was shot down/was also flt11/landed in cleveland/etc?


why else would she be under gag order lol

/twoofer

[Corsair 115]

I imagine first you would have to get permission to leave the country under such orders unless of course you're breaking out of America. Really? Were these people's passports revoked? It doesn't take much in the way of ID to drive into Canada.

Did these individuals voluntarily sign or otherwise agree to these national security gag orders you claim exist? If they didn't, then how were they informed that they were subject to them? What legal process was followed to obtain such orders? Where is the necessary legal documentation? Are they being monitored by federal agents 24 hours a day to ensure their compliance with such gag orders?

Then pretty much all you would have to do is take yourself and your family away from your home and everyone you know and love to go hide in some other country to tell a media outlet something that most Americans like you are only going to call them names for mentioning. So what you are saying is that in spite of having evidence of a massive crime committed by the U.S. government, because it would be inconvenient to their lives they remain silent? Wow, what courageous whistleblowers! Such noble character and devotion to truth and justice! Kind of makes all those folks thrown into Soviet gulags for protesting the Soviet government back in the days of communism seem like wimps, doesn't it?

So what you are saying is that they don't have the strength of their convictions to stand up and do the right thing even if it means personal discomfort for them. Okay then.

[TC329]

Positive ID? Such as......?
Why is the FDR no good?

Because it is bogus.




Human remains were recovered from Indian lake? Source?

Wally Miller photographed the evidence there in detail. Call him up. Mark has his number if you need it.



Yep, I'm gonna have to ask you to back this up.

Contact them. Try being something other than an internet commando just once. ;)




Because, maybe because the FBI was tasked to collect evidence? FYI, FBI stands for Federal Bureau of Investigation. It's what they do.

Yes little grey and black webbing pieces of the fuselage. Everywhere. In New Baltimore. 8 miles from the Shanksville site. Wind, right?

Note there is no trail of evidence from Shanksville to Indian Lake to New Baltimore. They're all 3 seperate and independent debris fields. And the Shanksville crater actually had a blast force of a southwest direction spreading debris over a 3-4 mile radius that way when these 2 are actually southeast of the crash site. Coincidentally right over Val's house. Interesting, isn't it?







There are always such accounts in aircraft crashes. Oh and can I see their complete statement saying as much? Thanks.

Loud bangs before impacts? Really? Really?

Proof?






United 93.......?
I give up. Which plane was it?

Is your theory UA93 was flying Northeast over Val McClatchey prior to crashing or Northwest over Susan McElwain prior to crashing or Southeast over Lee Purbaugh prior to crashing?




Quote?

Go pay $7 for the Final Cut.





You've been corrected on this, repeatedly.

Your painting a very stange picture TC. Plane was shot down, and blown to smithereens, yet you're getting hung up the phones anomaly? Or are you positing that the gummint shot down a drone for absoluetely no reason, wasting a perfectly good attack aircraft?

Please lay out your theory, 'cause I just see a jumbled mess that makes no sense.

My theory is Ed Felt made a call to West Moreland County 911 because he was on a plane that had been hijacked. He had to sneak in a call from the bathroom. There were hijackers and about a dozen passengers on his plane. His plane was engaged by the military in the air over southwestern Pa. There was no passenger revolt on Felt's plane. He was on a plane that was dark grey and did not have the UA blue anywhere on it. Beamer and Glick were on a different hijacked plane. What happened to their plane can only be speculation on my part. I have no reason to believe either are alive but I also have no reason to believe they were on the same plane as Ed Felt.

The FBI didn't allow any documentation in regards to Ed Felt to be presented at the Moussaoui trial because it is classified. Islamic Militants on a suicide mission did not get scared and wreck a plane in a big empty field. Their mission that day was not to preserve anyone's life.

There were fighter jets and another military drone plane at the scene at the exact moment. 4 planes were present but it is alleged that no one knew UA93 was a hijack until 10:06. That is pure government grade A ********.

[TC329]

And how exactly does Sibel prove that flight 93 was shot down/was also flt11/landed in cleveland/etc?


You're on my ignore list. And your name is surprisingly accurate. ;)

[Gravy]

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?They aren't liars, Dom. You are. Watch:

What plane crashed outside Shanksville on 9/11, Dom? If your answer is anything but flight 93, you're calling everyone who knows it was flight 93 and says so, a liar.

So what plane crashed there, Dom? Any idea at all?

And please tell us which of these people and organizations that were there, you interviewed:

How about Paul Sledzik, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Dennis Dirkmaat, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Rick Lohr, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about these first responders, Dom, all of whom you say are liars?

• Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company,
• Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company,
• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Members of the Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. (Source: The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks pp 58-60. PDF) http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Called them liars to their faces, Dom? No? Where's your courage, Dom?

[TC329]

They aren't liars, Dom. You are. Watch:

What plane crashed outside Shanksville on 9/11, Dom? If your answer is anything but flight 93, you're calling everyone who knows it was flight 93 and says so, a liar.

So what plane crashed there, Dom? Any idea at all?

And please tell us which of these people and organizations that were there, you interviewed:



Where's your courage, Mark?

I do believe I asked you some questions. Here in case you missed :

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Huh, Mark?

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?

How did Wally Miller photograph and retrieve human remains from Indian Lake, Mark?

Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?

Why do people like New Baltimore resident Melanie Hankison tell stories about the FBI setting up a site in New Baltimore for people to take the plane debris to and that it was everywhere, Mark?

How did witnesses like Michael Merringer and Laura Temyer hear explosions before the plane ever hit the ground, Mark?

What plane flew northwest over Val McClatchey's house, Mark?

What plane flew over Susan McElwain just 1.2 miles southeast of the explosion seconds before the explosion, Mark?

Is Barry Lichty a liar about the fighter jets that you don't believe were there, Mark?

Why did the FBI confiscate Ed Felt's phone call and classify it, Mark?

And how come these phone calls never terminated at 10:03 when the plane they were on is alleged to have shredded into thousands of tiny little pieces in a 20' wide 10' deep hole, Mark?

[apathoid]

Because it is bogus.


And you determined it's bogus because..........?



Wally Miller photographed the evidence there in detail. Call him up. Mark has his number if you need it.

Contact them. Try being something other than an internet commando just once. ;)




So no source, gotcha.


Yes little grey and black webbing pieces of the fuselage. Everywhere. In New Baltimore. 8 miles from the Shanksville site. Wind, right?


What is fuselage webbing? What is the largest piece found 8 miles away?

Note there is no trail of evidence from Shanksville to Indian Lake to New Baltimore. They're all 3 seperate and independent debris fields. And the Shanksville crater actually had a blast force of a southwest direction spreading debris over a 3-4 mile radius that way when these 2 are actually southeast of the crash site. Coincidentally right over Val's house. Interesting, isn't it?


I have to say that I haven't seen any reports of sizable wreckage more than a few hundred yards from the crater. Are there such reports? What was found at these other debris fields you speak of?


Is your theory UA93 was flying Northeast over Val McClatchey prior to crashing or Northwest over Susan McElwain prior to crashing or Southeast over Lee Purbaugh prior to crashing?


You lost me there. Are you saying these two eyewitness accounts are incompatable? If you are trying DF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direction_finding) UA 93s position using eyewitnesses, you'll have accecpt that there is going to be significant error. Most people simply cannot accurately report distance and direction of a far off object.

I don't supose you have an image showing the two locations with respect to the crash site?



Go pay $7 for the Final Cut.



That's funny!


My theory is Ed Felt made a call to West Moreland County 911 because he was on a plane that had been hijacked. He had to sneak in a call from the bathroom. There were hijackers and about a dozen passengers on his plane. His plane was engaged by the military in the air over southwestern Pa. There was no passenger revolt on Felt's plane. He was on a plane that was dark grey and did not have the UA blue anywhere on it. Beamer and Glick were on a different hijacked plane. What happened to their plane can only be speculation on my part. I have no reason to believe either are alive but I also have no reason to believe they were on the same plane as Ed Felt.

The FBI didn't allow any documentation in regards to Ed Felt to be presented at the Moussaoui trial because it is classified. Islamic Militants on a suicide mission did not get scared and wreck a plane in a big empty field. Their mission that day was not to preserve anyone's life.

There were fighter jets and another military drone plane at the scene at the exact moment. 4 planes were present but it is alleged that no one knew UA93 was a hijack until 10:06. That is pure government grade A ********.


That didn't help. You're saying that Ed Felt was not a passenger on United 93, that he was a passenger on some other flight? When did he say that he was on an all gray(miliary drone?) plane?

Also, if you believe the evidence points to a shootdown - why didn't the government take credit, in your opinion ??

[Dog Town]

Islamic Militants on a suicide mission did not get scared and wreck a plane in a big empty field. Their mission that day was not to preserve anyone's life.


Could you please, elaborate?

[Gravy]

Where's your courage, Mark?

I do believe I asked you some questions. Here in case you missed :

No, Dom: I have been asking you these questions for over a year. Why are you afraid to answer them?

So what plane crashed there, Dom? Or are you calling Wally Miller a liar?

And please tell us which of these people and organizations that were there, you interviewed.

How about Paul Sledzik, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Dennis Dirkmaat, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Rick Lohr, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about these first responders, Dom, all of whom you say are liars?

• Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company,
• Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company,
• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Members of the Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. (Source: The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks pp 58-60. PDF) http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Who did you interview from these groups? I've been giving you this information for over a year. They were there. Are you afraid to find out what they experienced?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904737cd78692ec.jpg

Did Lorraine Bay die on flight 93 outside Shanksville, Dom, or are the people who say they found her flight log and remains liars?

[TC329]

No, Dom: I have been asking you these questions for over a year. Why are you afraid to answer them?

So what plane crashed there, Dom? Or are you calling Wally Miller a liar?

And please tell us which of these people and organizations that were there, you interviewed.

How about Paul Sledzik, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Dennis Dirkmaat, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about Rick Lohr, Dom? Why haven't you told him he's wrong? I gave you his contact information many times.

How about these first responders, Dom, all of whom you say are liars?

• Shanksville Volunteer Fire Company,
• Stoystown Volunteer Fire Company,
• Central City Fire Department,
• Berlin Fire Department,
• Friedens Volunteer Fire Department,
• Listie Volunteer Fire Company,
• Somerset Volunteer Fire Department,
• Somerset Ambulance Association,
• Hooversville Volunteer Fire Department, and the
• Hooversville Rescue Squad.

Members of the Shanksville and Stoystown departments spent over 1500 hours at the crash site. (Source: The Role of the Volunteer Fire Service in the September 11, 2001 Terrorist Attacks pp 58-60. PDF) http://www.nvfc.org/pdf/rolevolfiresvc911.pdf

Who did you interview from these groups? I've been giving you this information for over a year. They were there. Are you afraid to find out what they experienced?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904737cd78692ec.jpg

Did Lorraine Bay die on flight 93 outside Shanksville, Dom, or are the people who say they found her flight log and remains liars?


I'm not calling those people liars Mark unless they say they can prove it was UA93.

Now that I said that for the 3rd time can you answer my questions?

I said a plane with 12-15 people on it was shot down and it was dark grey and Ed Felt was a passenger. Human remains were recovered from Indian Lake, Miller documented the evidence there, & lots of people are under gag orders.

How many people did Wally Miller identify, Mark?

Lorraine Bay could have easily have been on the same plane as Ed Felt. There is no evidence the phone call she made lasted well past the "crash" time, is there?

[Good Lt]

I'm not calling those people liars Mark unless they say they can prove it was UA93.

So you are calling them liars.

[TC329]

So you are calling them liars.

Are you saying these people can positively identify the plane as United Airlines Flight 93?

How?

And where is that evidence?

[Gravy]

"Miller was familiar with scenes of sudden and violent death, although none quite like this. Walking in his gumboots, the only recognisable body part he saw was a piece of spinal cord, with five vertebrae attached."

"We went through here on our hands and knees hundreds of times."

–"On Hallowed Ground." The Age(Australia) 9/9/2002

Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller says he personally identified 12 of flight 93's victims, using dental records and fingerprints. Is he a liar, Dom?

If you believe he is, then what evidence would convince you otherwise?

[TC329]

"Miller was familiar with scenes of sudden and violent death, although none quite like this. Walking in his gumboots, the only recognisable body part he saw was a piece of spinal cord, with five vertebrae attached."

"We went through here on our hands and knees hundreds of times."

–"On Hallowed Ground." The Age(Australia) 9/9/2002

Somerset County Coroner Wallace Miller says he personally identified 12 of flight 93's victims, using dental records and fingerprints. Is he a liar, Dom?

If you believe he is, then what evidence would convince you otherwise?

Sure don't. 12 passengers and 3 hijackers by the 3 caskets of "unidentifiable remains" he still maintains.

I can't understand why he would turn over everything but those 3 caskets to the Armed Forces DNA lab. Just doesn't make sense unless he didn't turn anything over to the Armed Forces DNA Lab and that was just a cover story to account for unaccounted for passengers who were on a different plane.

Hey remember when Donald Rumsfeld admitted they shot down a plane over Pennsylvania, Mark? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4060583553380580771&q=flight+93&total=979&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3)

Now will you answer my questions?

[Good Lt]

I can't understand why he would turn over everything but those 3 caskets to the Armed Forces DNA lab.What you think is irrelevant - you have no evidence proving shoot downs or that anything other than UA 93 crashed in PA.

Just doesn't make sense unless he didn't turn anything over to the Armed Forces DNA Lab and that was just a cover story to account for unaccounted for passengers who were on a different plane.Still pretending there was some sooper sekret mystery plane and that UA 93 never crashed?

Hey remember when Donald Rumsfeld admitted they shot down a plane over Pennsylvania, Mark? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4060583553380580771&q=flight+93&total=979&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3)You do realize he was talking about Islamic terrorists when he misspoke in that one-sentence 19 second clip, right?

He admitted no such thing.

Another quote-miner for 9-11 Troof!

[TC329]

What you think is irrelevant - you have no evidence proving shoot downs or that anything other than UA 93 crashed in PA.



Still pretending there was some sooper sekret mystery plane and that UA 93 never crashed?

Are you saying these people can positively identify the plane as United Airlines Flight 93?

How?

And where is that evidence?



- Yeah, I didn't think you could either.

[BenBurch]

Are you saying these people can positively identify the plane as United Airlines Flight 93?

How?

And where is that evidence?



- Yeah, I didn't think you could either.


Yes, absolutely they could and they did recognize that this was 93 by what was found on the scene. DNA, serial numbers, personal effects, flight recorders. tons and tons of amazingly small pieces of 93. I don't think you can falsify a single item they found there. And given that, your unwillingness to CHANGE YOUR MIND as the facts demand has to be looked upon as truculent and perverse.

[Good Lt]

Sorry, Troofer. Hate to do this to you (and Mark did it already), but...

They identified the plane through pieces of fuselage (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/inv.pennsylvania.site/index.html), and of course, the black boxes.

Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline, with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley.
Crowley said the biggest piece of the plane that was recovered was a 6-by-7-foot piece of the fuselage skin, including about four windows. The heaviest piece, Crowley said, was part of an engine fan, weighing about 1,000 pounds.


Again... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true)

The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground. of grassy land that had long ago been strip-mined for coal. The impact spewed a fireball of horrific force across hundreds of acres of towering hemlocks and other trees, setting many ablaze. The fuselage burrowed straight into the earth so forcefully that one of the "black boxes" was recovered at a depth of 25 feet under the ground.
As coroner, responsible for returning human remains, Miller has been forced to share with the families information that is unimaginable. As he clinically recounts to them, holding back very few details, the 33 passengers, seven crew and four hijackers together weighed roughly 7,000 pounds. They were essentially cremated together upon impact. Hundreds of searchers who climbed the hemlocks and combed the woods for weeks were able to find about 1,500 mostly scorched samples of human tissue totaling less than 600 pounds, or about 8 percent of the total.
Miller was among the very first to arrive after 10:06 on the magnificently sunny morning of September 11. He was stunned at how small the smoking crater looked, he says, "like someone took a scrap truck, dug a 10-foot ditch and dumped all this trash into it." Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service." As a funeral director, Miller says, he is honored and humbled to preside over what has become essentially an immense cemetery stretching far into the scenic wooded mountain ridge. He considers it the final resting place of 40 national heroes.


Stop calling these people liars.

Photo of UA 93's cockpit voice recorder. (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200065.html)
Transcript of that voice recorder from 9-11. (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200056T.pdf)

Photo of UA 93's flight data recorder. (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200066.html)

Photos of UA 93 disaster site. (http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html)

So much more evidence that you plainly ignore (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence%2Cman) in the quest to continue your conspiracy fantasy while presenting nothing to the contrary.

You have nothing.

Stop calling them liars.

[Calcas]

Dom your accusations about gag orders, at least pertaining to Johnstown ATCT, is a lie.

I'm ex-ATC. I know one of the controllers that was on duty that day. His name is Tom Hull. He, and his supervisor Dennis Fritz, remained in the tower without evacuating.

I asked him about it a few months ago and he said they get a call "now and again" from 9-11 conspiracy nuts and they simply tell them "we're not supposed to talk about it."

But, they can and they do.

There is no gag order. Please stop lying about it just because they don't want to talk to a nut like you.

[TC329]

Sorry, Troofer. Hate to do this to you (and Mark did it already), but...

They identified the plane through pieces of fuselage (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/inv.pennsylvania.site/index.html), and of course, the black boxes.



Again... (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true)


Stop calling these people liars.

Photo of UA 93's cockpit voice recorder. (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200065.html)
Transcript of that voice recorder from 9-11. (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200056T.pdf)

Photo of UA 93's flight data recorder. (http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200066.html)

Photos of UA 93 disaster site. (http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_photos.html)

So much more evidence that you plainly ignore (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence%2Cman) in the quest to continue your conspiracy fantasy while presenting nothing to the contrary.

You have nothing.

Stop calling them liars.


Prove this wasn't taken in New Baltimore (http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_5.html)

And as for the person above you, please let's see where they identified it through the use of serial numbers. I am looking for positive identification and not pictures of an event with no recognizable evidence and being told to accept that it is plane __________ when there isn't anything but little grey squares scattered all over the place............

[Good Lt]

When you see how Troofers torture and quote mine even the most benign comments from individuals and officials involved with 9-11 and the aftermath, how could you blame them?

[boloboffin]

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?

Did everybody hear that ghastly noise? That was my logicometer going from 4th into reverse and my cerebellum leaping out of my right temple in a rather ugly mess.

Dear God in heaven, man. Besides all of the pieces of United 93 being marked as part of that airplane, the simple fact of United 93's passengers being identified through DNA analysis is the most "positive" identification of the plane being United 93 that can exist!

Jebus. Do you guys have any control over how idiotic you make yourselves look?

[TC329]

Dom your accusations about gag orders, at least pertaining to Johnstown ATCT, is a lie.

I'm ex-ATC. I know one of the controllers that was on duty that day. His name is Tom Hull. He, and his supervisor Dennis Fritz, remained in the tower without evacuating.

I asked him about it a few months ago and he said they get a call "now and again" from 9-11 conspiracy nuts and they simply tell them "we're not supposed to talk about it."

But, they can and they do.

There is no gag order. Please stop lying about it just because they don't want to talk to a nut like you.

Really? Because I talked to one of his colleagues and they told me something similar except elaborated why he couldn't talk about it. He specifically told me he wasn't allowed to discuss.

Why aren't they supposed to talk about it?

Did you know Dennis was amazed they couldn't get a visual on such a large craft so close to them and so low? At one point it was only 15 miles out and they couldn't find it. Have you asked Tom about that?

Would Tom be willing to discuss this with me?

[Good Lt]

Prove this wasn't taken in New Baltimore (http://911myths.com/html/flight_93_5.html)

Prove a negative?

I am looking for positive identification and not pictures of an event with no recognizable evidence and being told to accept that it is plane __________ when there isn't anything but little grey squares scattered all over the place............

FLIGHT RECORDERS WERE RECOVERED, PASSANGER DNA, REMAINS, ETC. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true)

PROVE THEY WEREN'T OR KNOCK IT OFF.

[TC329]

Did everybody hear that ghastly noise? That was my logicometer going from 4th into reverse and my cerebellum leaping out of my right temple in a rather ugly mess.

Dear God in heaven, man. Besides all of the pieces of United 93 being marked as part of that airplane, the simple fact of United 93's passengers being identified through DNA analysis is the most "positive" identification of the plane being United 93 that can exist!

Jebus. Do you guys have any control over how idiotic you make yourselves look?


Please show us all the pieces of UA93.

[Good Lt]

Why aren't they supposed to talk about it?

Look at how Troofers quote-minded Dr. Quintere's refutation of their nuttery to where they claimed it meant the exact opposite of what he said for the answer to your question.

[Gravy]

Dom, these people saw the plane go down, just as the FDR says it did, and they don't dispute that it was flight 93, a Boeing 757.

Why do you?

kxsmhnZeM6w

Where's your evidence that all the witnesses, all the investigators, and all the evidence they collected is fake, Dom? Thousands of people support the evidence. The burden of proof of your claims is on you. Do you understand this?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904737da6320683.jpg

[Good Lt]

Please show us all the pieces of UA93.

Just showed you plenty of them (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3146125&postcount=110). You pretended they didn't exist.

Please show us ALL the pieces of your non-existent mystery plane and the missiles used to "shoot it down.

Jeebus. Freakin. Christmas.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?


It's Westmoreland County.

[TC329]

Dom, these people saw the plane go down, just as the FDR says it did, and they don't dispute that it was flight 93, a Boeing 757.

Why do you?

kxsmhnZeM6w

Where's your evidence that all the witnesses, all the investigators, and all the evidence they collected is fake, Dom? Thousands of people support the evidence. The burden of proof of your claims is on you. Do you understand this?

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/87904737da6320683.jpg

One of the eyewitnesses in that video says there was no Blue on the plane. His name is Lee Purbaugh. Is he a liar?

[Calcas]

Really? Because I talked to one of his colleagues and they told me something similar except elaborated why he couldn't talk about it. He specifically told me he wasn't allowed to discuss.

Why aren't they supposed to talk about it?

Did you know Dennis was amazed they couldn't get a visual on such a large craft so close to them and so low? At one point it was only 15 miles out and they couldn't find it. Have you asked Tom about that?

Would Tom be willing to discuss this with me?

Are you dense???

Read my post again.

They're sick of getting calls from nuts like you. Or, I should say Tom is anyway.

BTW, you should know this but the tower has no radar. I know from experience that 15 miles with binoculars only is difficult at best to get a visual on any A/C, regardless of size or speed.

Give it up and stop lying.

[TC329]

For reference here is the list Mark avoids while I continue to answer his for the 4th or 5th time this thread :

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Huh, Mark?

Where is the positive identification that it was United Airlines Flight 93, Mark?

How did Wally Miller photograph and retrieve human remains from Indian Lake, Mark?

Why are Johnstown Air Traffic Controllers under gag orders, Mark?

Why are West Moreland County 911 Operators under gag orders, Mark?

Why do people like New Baltimore resident Melanie Hankison tell stories about the FBI setting up a site in New Baltimore for people to take the plane debris to and that it was everywhere, Mark?

How did witnesses like Michael Merringer and Laura Temyer hear explosions before the plane ever hit the ground, Mark?

What plane flew northwest over Val McClatchey's house, Mark?

What plane flew over Susan McElwain just 1.2 miles southeast of the explosion seconds before the explosion, Mark?

Is Barry Lichty a liar about the fighter jets that you don't believe were there, Mark?

Why did the FBI confiscate Ed Felt's phone call and classify it, Mark?

And how come these phone calls never terminated at 10:03 when the plane they were on is alleged to have shredded into thousands of tiny little pieces in a 20' wide 10' deep hole, Mark?

[TC329]

Are you dense???

Read my post again.

They're sick of getting calls from nuts like you. Or, I should say Tom is anyway.

BTW, you should know this but the tower has no radar. I know from experience that 15 miles with binoculars only is difficult at best to get a visual on any A/C, regardless of size or speed.

Give it up and stop lying.


I'm lying?

I suspect you never even spoke with Tom Hull.

[Good Lt]

Where did UA 93 go, TC239?

Why were it's flight recorders/ black boxes recovered? The CVR? The FDR? Passenger remains? Hijacker remains? DNA samples? Fuselage?

If not Shanksville, then where is it? The passengers? The hijackers?

And what crashed there? Prove it.

SHOW US THE MONEY.

[Good Lt]

I suspect you never even spoke with Tom Hull.

Again, it doesn't matter what you think. Factual reality doesn't cease to exist just because you don't like it.

So again,

Where did UA 93 go, TC239?

Why were it's flight recorders/ black boxes recovered? The CVR? The FDR? Passenger remains? Hijacker remains? DNA samples? Fuselage?

If not Shanksville, then where is it? The passengers? The hijackers?

And what crashed there? Prove it.

[Gravy]

One of the eyewitnesses in that video says there was no Blue on the plane. His name is Lee Purbaugh. Is he a liar?

None of those witnesses dispute that it was flight 93.

How do you intend to prove your claims, Dom? How do you intend to provide superior evidence to that gathered by the people who investigated, especially when you refuse to talk to them?

I'm off to bed. Good luck with your many, many problems.

[Calcas]

I'm lying?

I suspect you never even spoke with Tom Hull.


You're lying when you say they're under a "gag order."

Just because you say a "colleague" said he couldn't talk about it doesn't mean there's a gag order.

He probably is just going along with the SOP of "ignore the CT" nuts.

I KNOW Tom. He flatly denies that there is any gag order.

I'm in PA myself. I'm tempted to arrange a tower tour for you just so I can tape it and bust you on YouTube.

[TC329]

None of those witnesses dispute that it was flight 93.

How do you intend to prove your claims, Dom? How do you intend to provide superior evidence to that gathered by the people who investigated, especially when you refuse to talk to them?

I'm off to bed. Good luck with your many, many problems.


Well Lee Purbaugh says there wasn't any blue on it. Wouldn't you say that disputes that it was Flight 93?

Besides your initial claim was they confirmed a 757 crashed there. Although it would be hard to tell a 727 from a 757 for most so we'll just go they witnessed a commercial plane.

Since there is only a one sentence sound bite for each witness I must reserve judgement because the rest of the claims are made by the gov and media.

And as I proved with Susan McElwain the gov and media don't always tell the truth. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gliHOhXYFQ) Of course I will corroborate this even further when the time is right.

[TC329]

You're lying when you say they're under a "gag order."

Just because you say a "colleague" said he couldn't talk about it doesn't mean there's a gag order.

He probably is just going along with the SOP of "ignore the CT" nuts.

I KNOW Tom. He flatly denies that there is any gag order.

I'm in PA myself. I'm tempted to arrange a tower tour for you just so I can tape it and bust you on YouTube.


Do it. I'll make sure the person I spoke with is there to so we can ask him on camera.

As for the colleague their spouse contacted WeAreChange after coming across stuff on the internet and then relayed the whole story and gave all their contact info. I confirmed the story with the actual person who "isn't allowed to tell me about the plane shot down on 9/11". Said person then elaborated that "they wish they could tell me about the plane shot down on 9/11". And that what their spouse had said was true.

Then this person said they couldn't go public.

So putting the fact that they told me it was shot down and they can't go public because they are not allowed to talk about it means what?

Arrange your little tour. Please I would love to ask all the guys there about all the other planes they had to have seen and know about that morning.

[beachnut]

But the time isn't the operators call to the plane, it is the time logged from the phone on the plane to the recipient. Therefor the phone on the plane is still live and has a connection.
You do not understand this topic; you failed. Next.

If this is the best research you can do, no wonder the rest of your work is junk. (the answer to your failed thread was in the information you posted, but you are not prepared to understand.)

[CFLarsen]

TC329,

What do you think happened to Glick and Beamer?

[BenBurch]

Please show us all the pieces of UA93.

They were handed over to UAL. Why don't you call their corporate offices in Chicago in the morning and ask about them?

[Jonnyclueless]

You're on my ignore list. And your name is surprisingly accurate. ;)


I believe i hear the sound of a baby crying. That's it, run along now.

[Jonnyclueless]

Do it. I'll make sure the person I spoke with is there to so we can ask him on camera.

As for the colleague their spouse contacted WeAreChange after coming across stuff on the internet and then relayed the whole story and gave all their contact info. I confirmed the story with the actual person who "isn't allowed to tell me about the plane shot down on 9/11". Said person then elaborated that "they wish they could tell me about the plane shot down on 9/11". And that what their spouse had said was true.

Then this person said they couldn't go public.

So putting the fact that they told me it was shot down and they can't go public because they are not allowed to talk about it means what?

Arrange your little tour. Please I would love to ask all the guys there about all the other planes they had to have seen and know about that morning.

I have unnamed sources who aren't allowed to talk who say killer clowns from outer space took out flight 93.

Uh oh, now we both have the same amount of evidence for 2 conflicting stories. What to do...What to do...

But, this is what happens when people lie.

[boloboffin]

Please show us all the pieces of UA93.

And THAT sound you just heard was the fried reverse siren on the Truth Movement's goalpost transporter.

[boloboffin]

For reference here is the list Mark avoids while I continue to answer his for the 4th or 5th time this thread :

If I believe there was a plane shot down with people on it how does that make those people liars?

Because those people say that it was specifically United 93 and you say it isn't.

[chillzero]

Given how the first page played out, I am willing to allow the drift into discussion of the flight in general, rather than 1 phonecall from that flight, to stay in this thread without splits.

However, stop personalising the debate, and discuss the points that are raised. I don't know who is on who's ignore list, and who is deliberately avoiding questions. Nor do any of you.

Keep it civil, and keep to the topic of Flight UA93.

[WildCat]

Hey remember when Donald Rumsfeld admitted they shot down a plane over Pennsylvania, Mark? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4060583553380580771&q=flight+93&total=979&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3)

So now you're claiming there was no NORAD stand-down? :rolleyes:

[BenBurch]

TC329,

Have you called UAL yet? Their offices open at 8, and being a button-down sort of place (my father flew for them) their public information officer was likely on the job since 7:45.

I eagerly await the result of your research.

-Ben

[TC329]

TC329,

Have you called UAL yet? Their offices open at 8, and being a button-down sort of place (my father flew for them) their public information officer was likely on the job since 7:45.

I eagerly await the result of your research.

-Ben

All of the debris is stored at Iron Mountain one of the most secured locations on the planet.

But I'm sure you already knew that being a top notch JREF researcher, right?

[TC329]

Because those people say that it was specifically United 93 and you say it isn't.

Those people are like the soldiers who put bio/chem suits before going into Iraq. They believe what they were told.

Don't act like Stoystown FD recovered parts with serial numbers and then used those parts to positively identify the plane as UA93. Or is that what you guys are claiming?

Various First Responders and local residents photographed and documented the scene and later examined the evidence and used it to postively identify the plane. Is that what you are now claiming?

Otherwise, you have a bunch of good people reciting what they were told.

Kind of like when Rick Chaney was asked about the UAV Susan McElwain saw. When asked what he saw he kept repeating "They say it was a corporate jet" and you ask "Yes, thats what they say but what did you see" and Rick will say "They say I saw a corporate jet".

Rick Chaney didn't see a corporate jet. He was told that is what he saw but he knows it wasn't.

[BenBurch]

All of the debris is stored at Iron Mountain one of the most secured locations on the planet.

But I'm sure you already knew that being a top notch JREF researcher, right?

Correct. But you are supposed to be asking UAL what condition the material was in, how identifiable was it, how many pounds were returned to them, and do they have any photo documentation of it that they can share.

Get busy!

[Norseman]

Well Lee Purbaugh says there wasn't any blue on it. Wouldn't you say that disputes that it was Flight 93?


In fact Lee Purbaugh described the color as dark grey in a telephone conversation with the Canadian no-planer Jeff Hill. That is no suprise since the plane was flying upside down when it crashed. Flight 93 was painted dark blue on its belly and dark grey on the top, as you can see in this photo of Flight 93 taken at Newark (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=0188156&WxsIERv=Obrvat%20757-222&Wm=0&WdsYXMg=Havgrq%20Nveyvarf&QtODMg=Arjnex%20-%20Yvoregl%20Vagreangvbany%20%28RJE%20%2F%20XRJE%2 9&ERDLTkt=HFN%20-%20Arj%20Wrefrl&ktODMp=Frcgrzore%208%2C%202001&BP=1&WNEb25u=Sryvk%20Fvrqre&xsIERvdWdsY=A591HN&MgTUQtODMgKE=Hasbeghangryl%20guvf%20nvepensg%20jnf %20ybfg%20nf%20syvtug%2093%20n%20srj%20qnlf%20yngr e.%20Zl%20pbaqbyraprf%20gb%20nyy%20jub%20unir%20yb fg%20ybirq%20barf%20va%20guvf%20qvfnfgre.%20%28qry virerq%201996%29&YXMgTUQtODMgKERD=22910&NEb25uZWxs=2001-09-13%2000%3A00%3A00&ODJ9dvCE=&O89Dcjdg=28142%2F718&static=yes&width=1000&height=669&sok=JURER%20%20%28nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Havgrq%20Nve yvarf%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Fuhggyr%20o l%20Havgrq%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Nve%20 Pnyvsbeavn%20%28Havgrq%20Nveyvarf%29%25%27%20BE%20 nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Nre%20Yvathf%20%28Havgrq%20Nve yvarf%29%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27Grq%20%2 8Havgrq%20Nveyvarf%29%25%27%20BE%20nveyvar%20YVXR% 20%27Hagvgyrq%20%28Havgrq%20Nveyvarf%29%25%27%29%2 0NAQ%20%28cynpr%20%3D%20%27Arjnex%20-%20Yvoregl%20Vagreangvbany%20%28RJE%20%2F%20XRJE%2 9%27%29%20NAQ%20%28lrne%20%20yvxr%20%272001%25%27% 29%20NAQ%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynp r%2Ccubgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2 Crznvy%2Clrne%2Cert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr %29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B%22Havgrq%22%20%2B%22Nvey varf%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE% 20OL%20cubgb_vq%20QRFP&photo_nr=4&prev_id=0188157&next_id=0188153) four days before the crash.

[BenBurch]

TC329,

I even looked up the number for you; (312) 997-8000

-Ben

[TC329]

In fact Lee Purbaugh described the color as dark grey in a telephone conversation with the Canadian no-planer Jeff Hill. That is no suprise since the plane was flying upside down when it crashed. Flight 93 was painted dark blue on its belly and dark grey on the top, as you can see in this photo of Flight 93 taken at Newark four days before the crash.


Lee Purbaugh also explains in the same interview that the plane wasn't flying upside down.

Did you purposely choose to leave that out?

He also says it was about 300' in the air which would clash with other accounts of it nose diving out of the sky. At 300' AGL it would be hard for a 155' long plane to get into a position where it could strike the ground at the near 90 degree angle described by eyewitnesses which is disputed by the 40 degree angle in the plane's FDR.

[JimBenArm]

I really don't see any signifigance to how long the call was connected. Plane was hijacked, passengers fought back heroically, plane crashed. Anything said differently is a slur to them, and anyone doing this SHOULD be ashamed for having done it, and the fact someone does it says all I need to know about them and their character, or lack thereof. Glad there's no one like that here...

[Disbelief]

He also says it was about 300' in the air which would clash with other accounts of it nose diving out of the sky. At 300' AGL it would be hard for a 155' long plane to get into a position where it could strike the ground at the near 90 degree angle described by eyewitnesses which is disputed by the 40 degree angle in the plane's FDR.

So, is this only one witness whos account clashes with all the others? Why does his account trump what many others have related? Do you believe his account because it fits your theory?

[apathoid]

Lee Purbaugh also explains in the same interview that the plane wasn't flying upside down.

Did you purposely choose to leave that out?

He also says it was about 300' in the air which would clash with other accounts of it nose diving out of the sky. At 300' AGL it would be hard for a 155' long plane to get into a position where it could strike the ground at the near 90 degree angle described by eyewitnesses which is disputed by the 40 degree angle in the plane's FDR.


...and some eyewitnesses reported a small commuter plane, A320 or 737 at the other three crash sites. Were there multiple planes there too....or can eyewitnesses get stuff mixed up? Thats's why physical evidence trumps eyewitness accounts.

I think your basic problem here is that you are taking all eyewitness accounts at 100.000% accuracy. Thats why your theory has 4 (or more?) aircraft all at different locations, flight attitudes and times.

Here is an idea, do the same thing with the Pentagon eyewitness accounts. You'd have a like 50 different planes in the same area because all the accounts differ slightly(gray plane, white plane, silver plane, AA plane, commuter jet, 737, 757, banking, flying straight in, gliding, screaming, etc, etc....)

[TC329]

TC329,

I even looked up the number for you; (312) 997-8000

-Ben

You're so close to being a researcher. Now if you only do the hard part and call them and come back here and share with us how they can't answer any of your questions and don't have any images to share you'll be an actual researcher.

Come on, I dare ya Ben.

;)

[CFLarsen]

Those people are like the soldiers who put bio/chem suits before going into Iraq. They believe what they were told.

Don't act like Stoystown FD recovered parts with serial numbers and then used those parts to positively identify the plane as UA93. Or is that what you guys are claiming?

Various First Responders and local residents photographed and documented the scene and later examined the evidence and used it to postively identify the plane. Is that what you are now claiming?

Otherwise, you have a bunch of good people reciting what they were told.

Kind of like when Rick Chaney was asked about the UAV Susan McElwain saw. When asked what he saw he kept repeating "They say it was a corporate jet" and you ask "Yes, thats what they say but what did you see" and Rick will say "They say I saw a corporate jet".

Rick Chaney didn't see a corporate jet. He was told that is what he saw but he knows it wasn't.


TC329,

What do you think happened to Glick and Beamer?

[TC329]

So, is this only one witness whos account clashes with all the others? Why does his account trump what many others have related? Do you believe his account because it fits your theory?


No the following witnesses accounts clash with the official story :

Susan McElwain
Lee Purbaugh
Barry Lichty
Dennis Decker
Natalie Custer
Jim Brandt
Tom Spinelli
John Fleegle
Val McClatchey
Laura Temyer
Melanie Hankinson
Rick Chaney
Kelly Leverknight (claims explosion/plume looked nothing like Val's pic)
Michael Merringer

And there are more but I am at work and dont have my notes with me to reference.........

[TC329]

TC329,

What do you think happened to Glick and Beamer?


Why do you repeatedly ask me for speculation and opinion?

I have no reason to believe either are alive. I am not going to speculate any further than that.

[Disbelief]

No the following witnesses accounts clash with the official story :

Susan McElwain
Lee Purbaugh
Barry Lichty
Dennis Decker
Natalie Custer
Jim Brandt
Tom Spinelli
John Fleegle
Val McClatchey
Laura Temyer
Melanie Hankinson
Rick Chaney
Kelly Leverknight (claims explosion/plume looked nothing like Val's pic)
Michael Merringer

And there are more but I am at work and dont have my notes with me to reference.........

So, do all of these stories agree? Do they all agree with Purbaugh? Have you looked at their locations in relation to the event? How do you reconcile the differences in what they report with the physical evidence?

[apathoid]

No the following witnesses accounts clash with the official story :

Susan McElwain
Lee Purbaugh
Barry Lichty
Dennis Decker
Natalie Custer
Jim Brandt
Tom Spinelli
John Fleegle
Val McClatchey
Laura Temyer
Melanie Hankinson
Rick Chaney
Michael Merringer

And there are more but I am at work and dont have my notes with me to reference.........


Do all these accounts agree with each other? Obviously not if you are positing multiple crashes of different colored planes in different locations and flight attitudes. And you keep name dropping eyewitnesses and holding them over our heads. Please stop doing this. Post their quotes, with sources or don't bother mentioning them. Thanks in advance..

Kelly Leverknight (claims explosion/plume looked nothing like Val's pic)

Yeah, because obviously a smoke plumes appearance is frozen in time and cannot change....:rolleyes:

[LastChild]

So, do all of these stories agree? Do they all agree with Purbaugh? Have you looked at their locations in relation to the event? How do you reconcile the differences in what they report with the physical evidence?

Wow and you've done all this with the official version? How so?

[Disbelief]

Wow and you've done all this with the official version? How so?

I am not addressing you and I am trying to get some information from TC. I am curious as to how he did this. Am I not to ask questions? I thought the truth movement embraced asking questions.

ETA: Why would I ask investigators if they did this. Unlike you, I believe that people investigating this know what they are doing and would be doing it to the best of their abilities.

[LastChild]

I am not addressing you and I am trying to get some information from TC. I am curious as to how he did this. Am I not to ask questions? I thought the truth movement embraced asking questions.

ETA: Why would I ask investigators if they did this. Unlike you, I believe that people investigating this know what they are doing and would be doing it to the best of their abilities.

So you didn't. Thanks.

[Disbelief]

So you didn't. Thanks.

So Zen, how many people does this add to your conspiracy? Since you are now accusing the real investigators of covering up a crime, I suppose you will back it up? Nah, you haven't in the past, so why start now.

[CFLarsen]

Why do you repeatedly ask me for speculation and opinion?

I have no reason to believe either are alive. I am not going to speculate any further than that.

But the evidence shows they were on board the plane, right?

[TC329]

So, do all of these stories agree? Do they all agree with Purbaugh? Have you looked at their locations in relation to the event? How do you reconcile the differences in what they report with the physical evidence?


Let's see :

Who saw a small white drone plane that morning?
Susan McElwain
Lee Purbaugh
Dennis Decker
Natalie Custer
Jim Brandt
Tom Spinelli
John Fleegle
Rick Chaney

Who saw or heard a plane approach the impact zone from the south?
Susan McElwain
Jim Brandt
John Fleegle
Val McClatchey
Tom Spinelli
(couple others locations need to be confirmed still)

Who heard "bangs" while the plane approached from the North?
Michael Merringer and his wife
Laura Temyer


That's some pretty strong corroboration so far.

[BenBurch]

You're so close to being a researcher. Now if you only do the hard part and call them and come back here and share with us how they can't answer any of your questions and don't have any images to share you'll be an actual researcher.

Come on, I dare ya Ben.

;)

You shouldn't believe me if I did as I am an ex employee.

What's the matter? CHICKEN? Afraid to find out what they will tell you?

You Truther's are all alike; So full of Brown Custard that its coming out your ears.

[TC329]

So you didn't. Thanks.

Of course they didn't. It's the job for people like me to do so they can ridicule the findings and insult the witnesses like Susan McElwain.

Notice not one person made a single comment this time about Susan McElwain's account when I posted it in this thread?

Wait til they see the rest.

[Disbelief]

Let's see :

Who saw a small white drone plane that morning?
Susan McElwain
Lee Purbaugh
Dennis Decker
Natalie Custer
Jim Brandt
Tom Spinelli
John Fleegle
Rick Chaney

Who saw or heard a plane approach the impact zone from the south?
Susan McElwain
Jim Brandt
John Fleegle
Val McClatchey
Tom Spinelli
(couple others locations need to be confirmed still)

Who heard "bangs" while the plane approached from the North?
Michael Merringer and his wife
Laura Temyer


That's some pretty strong corroboration so far.

Now, you just need to show a list of all the witnesses, and not just the ones you are trying to use. Plus, you haven't shown anyone else who corroborates Purbaugh's account. Like someone asked ealier, why do you not start quoting some of these individuals so we can look at what they are saying?

ETA:
Of course they didn't. It's the job for people like me to do so they can ridicule the findings and insult the witnesses like Susan McElwain.


You are the self styled researcher, so you took it upon yourself. Why should I not trustthe hundreds of investigators because you don't trust the government? You do realize that these are real people (the investigators) you are talking about and not "the government?"

[LastChild]

So Zen, how many people does this add to your conspiracy? Since you are now accusing the real investigators of covering up a crime, I suppose you will back it up? Nah, you haven't in the past, so why start now.

You're the one doing all the accusing. BTW it's LastChild. You are also the one who claims to know what happen on 9/11. Now did you do all the things you are asking TC to do or are truthers held to a higher standard?

[apathoid]

Let's see :

Who saw a small white drone plane that morning?
Susan McElwain
Lee Purbaugh
Dennis Decker
Natalie Custer
Jim Brandt
Tom Spinelli
John Fleegle
Rick Chaney



They actually said "drones" or are you being dishonest? Why didn't these people see the other planes?


Who saw or heard a plane approach the impact zone from the south?
Susan McElwain
Jim Brandt
John Fleegle
Val McClatchey
Tom Spinelli
(couple others locations need to be confirmed still)



How do you hear a plane coming from the south? And why didn't they see the drones or hear the "bangs"?


Who heard "bangs" while the plane approached from the North?
Michael Merringer and his wife
Laura Temyer



Did these three see anything else? Why are there no witnesses to all 4 of your planes? Who saw more than one plane?



That's some pretty strong corroboration so far.


One more time, produce the quotes please. How do I know that you aren't bastadizing the accounts(much like Lyte and Merc)

[Minadin]

Lee Purbaugh also explains in the same interview that the plane wasn't flying upside down.

Did you purposely choose to leave that out?

He also says it was about 300' in the air which would clash with other accounts of it nose diving out of the sky. At 300' AGL it would be hard for a 155' long plane to get into a position where it could strike the ground at the near 90 degree angle described by eyewitnesses which is disputed by the 40 degree angle in the plane's FDR.

People who see a jet roar by overhead can make mistakes in estimating its altitude. We had a 737 fly over the neighborhood last night so low that its underside was actually illuminated against the sky by the yellow-orange glow of the lights along the streets and parking lots here. It made it seem a lot closer than it was, in fact.

Furthermore, do you have sources for those witness statements describing a 90 degree impact angle? I've seen some that said it crashed straight into the ground, but that doesn't equal 90 degrees (straight down) necessarily. The only other source I can think of for a 90 degree angle of impact is Killtown's assertion here:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1924

But it's fairly clear that he's arguing from ignorance there.

[Disbelief]

You're the one doing all the accusing.
What accusation? I am asking questions.

BTW it's LastChild.
Must have been a mistype on my part.

You are also the one who claims to know what happen on 9/11.
Where did I claim that? Can you point me to that?

Now did you do all the things you are asking TC to do or are truthers held to a higher standard?

I do not work for TC and I am in no way going to do what he asked. He is the self styled researcher, so he should have answers at hand.

[TC329]

You shouldn't believe me if I did as I am an ex employee.

What's the matter? CHICKEN? Afraid to find out what they will tell you?

You Truther's are all alike; So full of Brown Custard that its coming out your ears.


Oh go ahead and call me chicken. After I call them and come back here and tell you how they don't have any pics and they can't answer any of my questions you're just going to accuse me of lying anyways.

You think I'll be the first person in 6 years to call and ask something like this?

[BenBurch]

Oh go ahead and call me chicken. After I call them and come back here and tell you how they don't have any pics and they can't answer any of my questions you're just going to accuse me of lying anyways.

You think I'll be the first person in 6 years to call and ask something like this?

Yes, I do.

Because it would be a rude and invasive question only an ass would ask.

Everybody else on the planet is convinced that there was nothing amiss except those so stupid that they need to be watered and repotted periodically, the dishonest shysters in it for a buck, and those who are mentally ill.

And yes, you are a freakin' coward - even the whites of your eyes are yellow.

[LastChild]

What accusation? I am asking questions.

zen, puduh, sockpuppet, who am I this week or are you calling me names I'm not hip to?

Must have been a mistype on my part.

Whatever

Where did I claim that? Can you point me to that?


So you don't know what happen on 9/11?

I do not work for TC and I am in no way going to do what he asked. He is the self styled researcher, so he should have answers at hand.

Does TC work for you?

[apathoid]

People who see a jet roar by overhead can make mistakes in estimating its altitude. We had a 737 fly over the neighborhood last night so low that its underside was actually illuminated against the sky by the yellow-orange glow of the lights along the streets and parking lots here. It made it seem a lot closer than it was, in fact.

Furthermore, do you have sources for those witness statements describing a 90 degree impact angle? I've seen some that said it crashed straight into the ground, but that doesn't equal 90 degrees (straight down) necessarily. The only other source I can think of for a 90 degree angle of impact is Killtown's assertion here:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1924

But it's fairly clear that he's arguing from ignorance there.


I was going to mention the same thing, but I feared the point would be missed. And just to add, a plane crashing at 40 degrees would look very much like 90 if the top or bottom was facing the viewer.

[apathoid]

One more time, produce the quotes please. How do I know that you aren't bastadizing the accounts(much like Lyte and Merc)


You're gonna make me google aren't ya, TC?

ETA: Didn't take long.

How Not To Question Eyewitnesses, Made Easy - by Terrorcell

_gliHOhXYFQ

[Disbelief]

So you don't know what happen on 9/11?

I asked you to point out where I claimed that I knew what happened on 9/11. Can you do that? Yes or no will suffice.

Does TC work for you?

He is the one making claims, so he should be backing them up. If I said that I had talked to witnesses that had irrefutable evidence that most in the truth movement would believe to prove the official account, would you not ask more questions? Should I not expect you to question my practices and methodology?

[LastChild]

I asked you to point out where I claimed that I knew what happened on 9/11. Can you do that? Yes or no will suffice.

I apologise. I thought you implied you trusted the hundreds of investigators that work for the government and their version of events. Was that wrong of me?

He is the one making claims, so he should be backing them up. If I said that I had talked to witnesses that had irrefutable evidence that most in the truth movement would believe to prove the official account, would you not ask more questions?

So the official version doesn't have what you think is irrefutable evidence? Congratulations.

Should I not expect you to question my practices and methodology?

I did. You said you don't work for TC.

[Disbelief]

I apologise. I thought you implied you trusted the hundreds of investigators that work for the government and their version of events. Was that wrong of me?

So, you shift the goalposts? You made a specific claim and I asked you to prove it. Continuing to play word games does not change that fact.

So the official version doesn't have what you think is irrefutable evidence? Congratulations.
To rational people it does. That is why I stated that it would change the minds of most in the truth movement. Of course, I can always rely on you to cherry pick. WIll you not address my analogy?


I did. You said you don't work for TC.

So, do you have the same troubles with similes (like so many others in the movement) as you do with analogies? You really are struggling with the analogy part, so I am not holding out much hope.

[LastChild]

So, you shift the goalposts? You made a specific claim and I asked you to prove it. Continuing to play word games does not change that fact.

Those were your words not mine and from this very thread.

To rational people it does. That is why I stated that it would change the minds of most in the truth movement. Of course, I can always rely on you to cherry pick. WIll you not address my analogy?

So you're not a rational person?

So, do you have the same troubles with similes (like so many others in the movement) as you do with analogies? You really are struggling with the analogy part, so I am not holding out much hope.

I'm having trouble understanding if you believe you know what happen on 9/11 or not.

[Disbelief]

Those were your words not mine and from this very thread.

Where?


So you're not a rational person?

Still struggling with analogies.

I'm having trouble understanding if you believe you know what happen on 9/11 or not.

I asked specific questions that have nothing to do with my beliefs. Why bring my beliefs into it? Why not just answer the questions? Why do you shift the goalposts?

I am done talking to you, as you are derailing the discussion. I can wait for TC to come back and clarify some things.

[DGM]

All of the debris is stored at Iron Mountain one of the most secured locations on the planet.

But I'm sure you already knew that being a top notch JREF researcher, right?
FYI Mr top researcher. Iron mountain does not and has never stored the remains of the aircraft. UAL has that itself. Iron mountain stores the momentos that were left at the site by visitors. You can contact them and ask if you like they're headquartered in Boston.

[pomeroo]

You're lying when you say they're under a "gag order."

Just because you say a "colleague" said he couldn't talk about it doesn't mean there's a gag order.

He probably is just going along with the SOP of "ignore the CT" nuts.

I KNOW Tom. He flatly denies that there is any gag order.

I'm in PA myself. I'm tempted to arrange a tower tour for you just so I can tape it and bust you on YouTube.


Calcas, Confronting the truth is the very last thing these frauds will do. I suggested to Lyte Trip that he interview one of his cherry-picked witnesses in the company of a rationalist or two to see which of the mutually-exclusive assertions, the north-of-Citgo flight path or the crash itself, gets abandoned. He ran away. Let's see if this guy will accompany you on a real fact-finding mission.

[pomeroo]

Do it. I'll make sure the person I spoke with is there to so we can ask him on camera.

As for the colleague their spouse contacted WeAreChange after coming across stuff on the internet and then relayed the whole story and gave all their contact info. I confirmed the story with the actual person who "isn't allowed to tell me about the plane shot down on 9/11". Said person then elaborated that "they wish they could tell me about the plane shot down on 9/11". And that what their spouse had said was true.

Then this person said they couldn't go public.

So putting the fact that they told me it was shot down and they can't go public because they are not allowed to talk about it means what?


It means that they are lying if you've reported what they said accurately, or you are lying if they never said it.



Arrange your little tour. Please I would love to ask all the guys there about all the other planes they had to have seen and know about that morning.


I'd love to see your bluff called. I'd bet that you fail to show up.

[chillzero]

Topic, people!!

[Jonnyclueless]

What was Mackey referring to when he mentioned the conspiracy shuffle again? It wouldn't be people like TC going from one claim to another as each is debunked is it?

It wouldn't be people like TC finding eyewitness disagreements and then using it to interject his complete conjecture as if it were then fact and use conflicting reports to somehow justify such deceptive tactics would it?

Now I wonder why people like TC and Lastchild refuse to propose a full explanation of what happened? They claim to be researchers correct? Wouldn't a real researcher collect information and provide research to explain what happened? How come these guys don't do any of that? Only con artists would pretend to have facts made up by simply taking pot shots at real researchers. So what could be the explanation?

[Jonnyclueless]

Ah yes, the topic was TC making a false claim that because of the call end time recorded at the receiving end which would not have a way of knowing that the call on the sending end stopped transmitting was somehow proof of a conspiracy. From there he spun that into about 80 other conspiracy claims from Sibel, to Cheney ordering a stand down, to Cheney claiming to shoot down, and everything in between.

This discussion was finished after the first 5 or 6 posts. If the OP chooses to use it as a tool to go from conspiracy to conspiracy, should not the thread be closed? Just because he didn't like the answer he got, does not make it fair for him to turn it into a proverbial conspiracy shooting gallery.

[TC329]

People who see a jet roar by overhead can make mistakes in estimating its altitude. We had a 737 fly over the neighborhood last night so low that its underside was actually illuminated against the sky by the yellow-orange glow of the lights along the streets and parking lots here. It made it seem a lot closer than it was, in fact.

Furthermore, do you have sources for those witness statements describing a 90 degree impact angle? I've seen some that said it crashed straight into the ground, but that doesn't equal 90 degrees (straight down) necessarily. The only other source I can think of for a 90 degree angle of impact is Killtown's assertion here:

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=1924

But it's fairly clear that he's arguing from ignorance there.

Yeah go find the video your hero Mark posted in this thread. The CNN clip where quite a few eyewitnesses say it came down at a 90 or near 90 degree angle.

Then get back to me.

[chillzero]

This discussion was finished after the first 5 or 6 posts. If the OP chooses to use it as a tool to go from conspiracy to conspiracy, should not the thread be closed? Just because he didn't like the answer he got, does not make it fair for him to turn it into a proverbial conspiracy shooting gallery.

I'll remind you of this:

Given how the first page played out, I am willing to allow the drift into discussion of the flight in general, rather than 1 phonecall from that flight, to stay in this thread without splits.

However, stop personalising the debate, and discuss the points that are raised. I don't know who is on who's ignore list, and who is deliberately avoiding questions. Nor do any of you.

Keep it civil, and keep to the topic of Flight UA93.

[TC329]

FYI Mr top researcher. Iron mountain does not and has never stored the remains of the aircraft. UAL has that itself. Iron mountain stores the momentos that were left at the site by visitors. You can contact them and ask if you like they're headquartered in Boston.

Proof?

[DGM]

Proof?
FYI Mr top researcher. Iron mountain does not and has never stored the remains of the aircraft. UAL has that itself. Iron mountain stores the momentos that were left at the site by visitors. You can contact them and ask if you like they're headquartered in Boston.

Proof that there headquartered in Boston? Only kidding. If you don't want to contact them you can get a family member to visit Iron mountain for you. They are allowed to view the things at Iron Mountain when they want. I posted an e-mail from them sometime ago here and on SLC forum I just don't feel the need to search for it.

[Gravy]

Furthermore, do you have sources for those witness statements describing a 90 degree impact angle? There were some people who said that it went down "nearly 90 degrees." See the Youtube video I posted above. So what? If they were situated anywhere roughly along the plane's flight path, in front or behind, it would be very hard to judge the angle. Also, people make mistakes about such estimations, and the plane was moving fast. These were witnesses, not forensic analysts. I am not aware of anyone on Dom's list who doesn't believe that flight 93 that crashed there.

Right, Dom?

Dom, why do you refuse to speak to the first responders and investigators?

Dom, what evidence would convince you that flight 93 crashed there?

[DGM]

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/index.php?showtopic=1840&st=60#

Here's the SLC thread. If anyone cares.

[boloboffin]

Don't act like Stoystown FD recovered parts with serial numbers and then used those parts to positively identify the plane as UA93. Or is that what you guys are claiming?

Wally Miller personally identified passengers of United 93 from human remains that he collected from the crash site. Yes, that is what we are claiming, because that is what happened.

You are calling Mr. Miller a liar.

[TC329]

There were some people who said that it went down "nearly 90 degrees."

"Some people"?? Perhaps you need to identify who they were? Do you have any idea who those "some people" are, Mark?

See the Youtube video I posted above. So what?

So What? And if Susan McElwain saw a different plane, So what?
And if a different plane flew over Val's house, so what?
And if people to the north of the crash site heard loud bangs while the plane was airborne, so what?

Whatever doesn't fit I'll just say "So what?" to.


If they were situated anywhere near the plane's flight path, in front or behind, it would be very hard to judge the angle. Also, people make mistakes about such estimations, and the plane was moving fast. These were witnesses, not forensic analysts.

So they could be mistaken about anything or only the angle they watched it plummet out of the sky at?

I believe it was Dennis Decker who called it a silver streak corroborating Purbaugh's claims that there wasn't any blue on the plane.


I am not aware of anyone on Dom's list who doesn't believe that flight 93 that crashed there.

Right, Dom?

They all believe a plane hit the ground there. That's an honest sentence, Mark.

Dom, why do you refuse to speak to the first responders and investigators?

Dom, what evidence would convince you that flight 93 crashed there?

I don't refuse to. They have done a great bit of help explaining the massive debris fields, Mark. Notice debris fields in plural. The most fascinating are the 2 debris fields no one saw. New Baltimore & Indian Lake that they closed off and didn't let any media near.

Positive Identification.

Do you understand what that is, Mark?

[TC329]

Wally Miller personally identified passengers of United 93 from human remains that he collected from the crash site. Yes, that is what we are claiming, because that is what happened.

You are calling Mr. Miller a liar.

I hate when people post in threads where they obviously haven't read anything.

You need to either read this thread or refrain from posting in it and making a fool out of yourself.

[Gravy]

Positive Identification.

Do you understand what that is, Mark?I do. You don't. You've been asked this many times in the past, Dom, including in this thread. Here we go again:

1) Specifically what evidence would convince you that the plane was flight 93?

2) How will you know that that evidence isn't fake?

[boloboffin]

I hate when people post in threads where they obviously haven't read anything.

You need to either read this thread or refrain from posting in it and making a fool out of yourself.

And yet another truther pulls out the well-worn tactic of personal attacks when their folly has been exposed beyond any ability to argue rationally.

[lapman]

Here's a question about your eyewitnesses, TC.
How many of them saw the 8 mile long smoke trail that would have been left by the aircraft?

What type of missile was used to shoot the aircraft down?

Why didn't anybody hear the missile?

Why were there only a few debris sites and not a continuous line of debris that would have come out of the aircraft as it was breaking up?

Do you agree with the truther claim that there was smoke in the cabin?

[StoneRook]

TC329,
are you suggesting that the "loud bangs" were missile impacts/detonations from a shoot down?

[A W Smith]

I took a look in google earth at the intersection and direction Susan McElwain was facing in the minivan as she approached the stop sign on Bridge Road, it appears she was just under a mile from flight 93's crash site. What occurred to me was her windshield was facing almost exactly toward the crash site. Anyone familiar with some models of minivans The Ford Errorstar for example with its low sloped windshield will recall on occasions reflections of objects overhead on the glass that appear to be directly ahead. Power lines for example. She was facing north the sun was rising to her right. a Field was to her right. the darkness of the trees straight ahead of her and to her left would have shaded her viewpoint and she would see the reflection of the aircraft heading down but it would appear to be heading forward. Also depending on the yaw of the aircraft it would appear from the side to have no wings or stub wings. I have captured a screen shot of the intersection. Judge for yourselves

[Bell]

bakinafew for an edit apparently the file is too large

Look it up at Google Maps, and then you can post a URL.

[chillzero]

Debate discussion split:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=98688

[Norseman]

Lee Purbaugh also explains in the same interview that the plane wasn't flying upside down.

Did you purposely choose to leave that out?

He also says it was about 300' in the air which would clash with other accounts of it nose diving out of the sky. At 300' AGL it would be hard for a 155' long plane to get into a position where it could strike the ground at the near 90 degree angle described by eyewitnesses which is disputed by the 40 degree angle in the plane's FDR.

He only says that he saw the bottom of the aircraft. He did not say anything about the position of the engines or the tail fin. He said the bottom of the aircraft was dark grey, that is consistent with the fact that Flight 93 was flying upside down just before it crashed.

This is confirmed by the eyewitness interviewed after the short clip with Lee Purbaugh in the CNN video Gravy Posted. That eyewitness, who must be Purbaugh's boss at the time, is very specific about how the aircraft was flying. He said the aircraft was flying completely upside down with the tail fin pointing down. He also said that the aircraft came down with an angle of more than 45 degrees, closer to 90 degrees.

As already pointed out by others in this thread it is difficult to estimate accurately the angle of the aircraft by eye only, especially when the aircraft is moving directly toward or away from you. We are talking about guesstimates here. The same goes for estimates of distances. While you are treating the angle and distance figures given by the eyewitnesses as the eyewitnesses had built in laser range finder and inclinometer in their eyes.

There are simple technics to make guesstimates more accurate, like Measuring Angle and Distance with your Thumb (http://www.vendian.org/mncharity/dir3/bodyruler_angle/). A noteworthy quote:
How "roughly, approximately, something like, about" is this?
You will often be within a factor of 2 or 3, and by using greater care, can get it under 20%.

Or like Angle Cards - A "business card" for measuring angle (http://www.vendian.org/mncharity/dir3/anglecard/). Another noteworthy quote:
First start out by just trying to do "is it more like 1 meter, or 10 meters, or 100 meters?". Then as your accuracy improves with practice, you can try to get within 50%, 25%, etc. A good habit to practice is giving bounds on your estimate - "Well, I am sure it is more than xxx, and I am sure it is less than xxx,... and, well, my estimate is xxx.". Even if all you are sure about to start with is that it is more than nothing, and less than a zillion.

Keep in mind that they had the aircraft in view for less than 3 seconds before it hit the ground.

In the telephone conversation the no-planer Jeff Hill taped, Lee Purbaugh said that the aircraft crashed 300 yards from him. When I measure the distance from the scrap yard to the crash site in Google Earth I get a distance in the area of 600 yards. He is off by a factor of two, but within the expected ball park.

In the same interview he says that the aircraft passed "5 and 3, 400 feet" above his head. Some simple calculations based upon FDR data gives a likely real height in the area of 1500 feet. Then he is at best off with a factor of 3. Also within the expected ball park.

The fact is that Lee Purbaugh's account quiet simply supports the fact that Flight 93 crashed right in front of him in Shanksville.

[tsig]

Proof that I am selling/profitting?

To date I do not sell anything 9/11 related. I have spent thousands of dollars in trips to Shanksville and have not charged anyone a single penny. When I am finished I will not charge anyone a penny either. I will release independent interviews like the one of Susan McElwain along with a compilation/documentary of the interviews. I will also release the entire unedited interviews to avoid all claims of taking anything out of context or misrepresenting an eyewitness.

Earlier I believed I asked for proof I will be profitting or an apology.

If you spent thousands traveling to Shanksville your travel agent is screwing you.

[tsig]

If I recall disclosing a National Secret without authorization is considered a high crime of treason which is punishable by _________ (ohhhh i forget this part, a little help? ;))

Do you ever do any of your own work? Just how lazy do you have to be to be a part of your movement?

[Norseman]

This is confirmed by the eyewitness interviewed after the short clip with Lee Purbaugh in the CNN video Gravy Posted. That eyewitness, who must be Purbaugh's boss at the time, is very specific about how the aircraft was flying. He said the aircraft was flying completely upside down with the tail fin pointing down. He also said that the aircraft came down with an angle of more than 45 degrees, closer to 90 degrees.


Posted in a different thread:
Purbaugh clearly stated it was not upside down so I'm not debating his story with people who choose to interpret it differently and claim someone that they can't even name is his boss.


To clear up the detail regarding the identity of the eyewitness mentioned in the bolded text in the quotes above.

The detail of the partly readable logo on his coverall was nagging me a bit, it did not fit the name of the scrap yard, Rollock Incoperated, so I discarded it as the name of the coverall producer or something like that. I was a little bit to quick on that detail when I made my assumption based upon the fact that he was standing close to the scrap yard on the road leading to the crash site, looking like someone working in a scrap yard and mentioning a coworker as Purbaugh did.

In fact he is most likely an employee of Rox Coal Incorporated in Somerset. That name fits the partly readable logo on his coverall, and he surly looks like a coal miner too.

Yes, I was most likely wrong in my assumption regarding the identity of the eyewitness. But that does not in any way change the point of my post. Or are you going to deny that both the coal miner and Lee Purbaugh described the same aircraft TC329.

[TC329]

Wow, you guys are right after all. There's no such things as small white UAV's which can fly so close to the ground. Thanks for helping me wake up!!


Houston2 (http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/14659066/detail.html)

http://www.click2houston.com/2007/1121/14658859_240X180.jpg



Wow, this plane fits the description of another small white UAV I've been hearing about over the past year. Weird.


Local 2 Investigates Police Secrecy Behind Unmanned Aircraft Test
By Stephen Dean

POSTED: 9:03 am CST November 21, 2007

WALLER COUNTY, Texas -- Houston police started testing unmanned aircraft and the event was shrouded in secrecy, but it was captured on tape by Local 2 Investigates.

Neighbors in rural Waller County said they thought a top-secret military venture was under way among the farmland and ranches, some 70 miles northwest of Houston. KPRC Local 2 Investigates had four hidden cameras aimed at a row of mysterious black trucks. Satellite dishes and a swirling radar added to the neighbors' suspense.

Then, cameras were rolling as an unmanned aircraft was launched into the sky and operated by remote control.

Houston police cars were surrounding the land with a roadblock in place to check each of the dignitaries arriving for the invitation-only event. The invitation spelled out, "NO MEDIA ALLOWED."

Trimmed for Rule 4 breach.

[rwguinn]

Wow, you guys are right after all. There's no such things as small white UAV's which can fly so close to the ground. Thanks for helping me wake up!!


Houston2 (http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/14659066/detail.html)

http://www.click2houston.com/2007/1121/14658859_240X180.jpg



Wow, this plane fits the description of another small white UAV I've been hearing about over the past year. Weird.

so now, 2007=2001?

good job, there....

[TC329]

so now, 2007=2001?

good job, there....


1) This wasn't supposed to be public now.

2) The government always releases information about every vehicle they have and never keep anything top secret for years before disclosing info on it if any.

Wow, you guys are grasping at straws now. How about just calling the story a hoax and claim Houston2 doesn't exist for the grand finale?

[TheRedWorm]

How does this fit into your idea of what happened on 9/11?

[Reheat]

Wow, this plane fits the description of another small white UAV I've been hearing about over the past year. Weird.

My gosh! You've discovered Santa's new delivery vehicle. Even PETA is really going to be angry that the reindeer now have no job. Shame on you for posting this Top Secret vehicle on a public forum. Kids all over the world are going to be disappointed this year because Rudolph is unemployed.

[rwguinn]

1) This wasn't supposed to be public now.

2) The government always releases information about every vehicle they have and never keep anything top secret for years before disclosing info on it if any.

Wow, you guys are grasping at straws now. How about just calling the story a hoax and claim Houston2 doesn't exist for the grand finale?
you sure it wasn't one of these?

[Jonnyclueless]

So how many missiles fit on that thing there TC?

[Damien Evans]

http://masklinnscans.free.fr/4chan/fail.jpg

[Corsair 115]

Its wings spanned 10 feet and it circled at an altitude of 1,500 feet. Operators from a private firm called Insitu, Inc. manned remote controls from inside the fleet of black trucks as the guests watched a live feed from the high-powered camera aboard the 40-pound aircraft.


Note the bolded portions. We're not exactly talking about a large, swift-moving aircraft, are we?

[A W Smith]

Dumbenick.. Did you even watch the video?
:dl:

[funk de fino]

1) This wasn't supposed to be public now.

2) The government always releases information about every vehicle they have and never keep anything top secret for years before disclosing info on it if any.

Wow, you guys are grasping at straws now. How about just calling the story a hoax and claim Houston2 doesn't exist for the grand finale?

Soooper secret stuff now just handed out willie nillie to Houston police?

Any sizes on the that thing yet? Speeds? Propulsion units?

British army have had similiar for years, no missiles though and very slow, I see similiar things every weekend down the aerodrome make a loud buzzy noise and there seems to be loads of geeks in anaoraks floating about

[Cl1mh4224rd]

That UAV TC329 posted is likely Boeing's and Insitu, Inc.'s ScanEagle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScanEagle
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/scaneagle/index.html

The thing is quite small... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:ScanEagleIraq.jpg

[Norseman]

That UAV TC329 posted is likely Boeing's and Insitu, Inc.'s ScanEagle.


The article TC329 quoted contained the following quote with a link to Insitu:
Operators from a private firm called Insitu, Inc (http://www.insitu.com/). manned remote controls from inside the fleet of black trucks as the guests watched a live feed from the high-powered camera aboard the 40-pound aircraft.

There is nothing secret about this, it is just Local 2 trying to make a sensational story out of a demonstration for a possible buyer.

[TC329]

The article TC329 quoted contained the following quote with a link to Insitu:


There is nothing secret about this, it is just Local 2 trying to make a sensational story out of a demonstration for a possible buyer.

Of the same type of craft described by Shanksville eyewitnesses (no bigger than my van) years ago which you all claimed didn't exist and couldn't exist and couldn't do this and can't do that despite not even knowing what type of craft these people saw (whom many of you have insulted) and now it proves you were wrong and these types of craft do exist. This info was not supposed to be public yet either.

Now all I need is the guy from Johnstown who claims to have seen UA93 (although according to the FDR the plane was 35,000 feet over Johnstown) to come in here and tell me about how I dont want his story and how his proves all the stoystown,indian lake, center city, etc witnesses wrong.... lol

And where's the other one that describes it as some weird optical illusion only created when the sun is in the a certain position and the angle is right and trees have to be in front of you and you need to be driving a 99 minivan and 757 turn into small white unmanned drone planes capable of flying 20-30' off the ground from a remote location.

Or maybe Mark to say he will debate me on Hardfire and then when presented with all the evidence squirms out and calls me a no planer and champions himself a victory.

This place is like a goldmine for the criminally insane.....lol

[DGM]

What was this little 40 lb. plane doing in Shanksville?

Does it carry large missiles?

[TheRedWorm]

How does this fit into your idea of what happened on 9/11?


Please, if you don't mind.

[TC329]

Please, if you don't mind.

It doesn't matter.

[Redtail]

Of the same type of craft described by Shanksville eyewitnesses (no bigger than my van) years ago which you all claimed didn't exist and couldn't exist and couldn't do this and can't do that despite not even knowing what type of craft these people saw (whom many of you have insulted) and now it proves you were wrong and these types of craft do exist. This info was not supposed to be public yet either.

Now all I need is the guy from Johnstown who claims to have seen UA93 (although according to the FDR the plane was 35,000 feet over Johnstown) to come in here and tell me about how I dont want his story and how his proves all the stoystown,indian lake, center city, etc witnesses wrong.... lol

And where's the other one that describes it as some weird optical illusion only created when the sun is in the a certain position and the angle is right and trees have to be in front of you and you need to be driving a 99 minivan and 757 turn into small white unmanned drone planes capable of flying 20-30' off the ground from a remote location.

Or maybe Mark to say he will debate me on Hardfire and then when presented with all the evidence squirms out and calls me a no planer and champions himself a victory.

This place is like a goldmine for the criminally insane.....lol

Proof that it existed in 2001?

[TheRedWorm]

It doesn't matter.



Then why bother saying anything?

[defaultdotxbe]

Then why bother saying anything?
gotta JAQ off somewhere

[Gravy]

Or maybe Mark to say he will debate me on Hardfire and then when presented with all the evidence squirms out and calls me a no planer and champions himself a victory.What a pathetic liar. I said I'd gladly debate Dom, as soon as he posts those interviews with the first responders and investigators, which he said he'd do. Doesn't sound as though he plans to, does it?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

How does this fit into your idea of what happened on 9/11?
It doesn't matter.


Beautiful... :rolleyes:

And how much time did you waste thinking about something that doesn't matter, TC329? Do you do this often with topics you feel are as vitally important to the freedom of the world as "9/11 Truth"?

[TheRedWorm]

gotta JAQ off somewhere


It was a rhetorical question, defaultdotxbe. What have I told you about thinking? Yeah, but honestly, I don't think I've ever seen such a clear case of it before!

[BenBurch]

My dog, but you truthers are funny! I built my first RC plane when I was 12.

And military drone aircraft go back to WW1.

It is not secret technology of any sort. Two modern things in this equation - gps and small digital sensor packages that mean you have a much easier time operating it when you are out of line-of-sight.

[Norseman]

Of the same type of craft described by Shanksville eyewitnesses (no bigger than my van) years ago which you all claimed didn't exist and couldn't exist and couldn't do this and can't do that despite not even knowing what type of craft these people saw (whom many of you have insulted) and now it proves you were wrong and these types of craft do exist. This info was not supposed to be public yet either.

And where's the other one that describes it as some weird optical illusion only created when the sun is in the a certain position and the angle is right and trees have to be in front of you and you need to be driving a 99 minivan and 757 turn into small white unmanned drone planes capable of flying 20-30' off the ground from a remote location.


Have it occurred to you that Susan McElwain saw a large white bird as described here:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3159495#post3159495

Just watch how she describes it in this video, start at 5:15:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM9CXo29syo

Notice especially how she describes the spoiler and then watch how this Kestrel spreads out it tail feathers at the start of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31Xw75hAwIc&feature=related

I agree with you that we with great certainty can forget about optical illusions and reflections from Flight 93. I did some calculations last week on how big Flight 93 would have been in here field of view on the horizon, and found that it would have covered about 1 degree of here view before it disappeared below the tree line in front of here. That would be less than half the width of my thumb when I hold it up in front of me with a fully stretched arm. That should not cause here to dive for cover, but a large white Red-tail Hawk, or similar bird, gliding low above here car from behind could.

The other witnesses saw the white business jet diverted to confirm the crash of Flight 93.

The only known UAV sent to the crash site was this one:
http://www.cmu.edu/cmnews/010927/010927_chopper.html
And that was after the crash, and it was not used.:)

But your UAV, TC 329, does not make any logical sense whatsoever in connection with Flight 93.

[Regnad Kcin]

It infuriates me. These loons babble on and their stories contradict each other. They can't bother to assemble a coherent narrative.Wouldn't that require coherence?

[Norseman]

Now all I need is the guy from Johnstown who claims to have seen UA93 (although according to the FDR the plane was 35,000 feet over Johnstown) to come in here and tell me about how I dont want his story and how his proves all the stoystown,indian lake, center city, etc witnesses wrong

According to the FDR, Flight 93's maximum altitude was about 10 000 feet when it passed Johnstown just before it crashed in Shanksville. That altitude was only held for a moment before it descended towards Shanksville. And just before that it was climbing from 5000 feet.

[uk_dave]

TC, why was your star witness so upset over a toy plane crashing in the woods?

[A W Smith]

so where is he going with this? a hobbyist plane with a ten foot wingspan that can travel no faster than 87 mph intercepts a Boeing flying at 500 mph?


oh thats right. it doesn't matter

:dl: