Here There Be Demons...

[homunculus]

I've posted about the problem- and solution-centred approach to philosophy/science etc. before, but a recent conversation (on IRC) with a Christian fundamentalist, got me thinking again. Among other fictions, this guy fervently believed in Demons (which he "described" as "fallen angels" - as if that clarifies anything!)

The questions I put him were, "How do you recognise a Demon when you see one?" and, "What criteria/procedures can separate genuine cases of posession, from (say) schizoid delusions?"

His replies were infuriating. After flatly proclaiming that Scripture was his only guide, and having me point out (very politely!) that this did not answer my questions, he eventually lost his temper, accusing me of being "foolish" since Demons can "assume any form or likeness" to decieve us...

Now, to this I had a (very reasonable, I thought) retort. He had effectively just admitted that there could not possibly be any way to tell ordinary, natural states of affairs from Demonic, supernatural ones (Demons, after all, can assume any form or likeness). From which follows, that despite all his confabulation, he had no idea "what" a Demon is, how such a thing might interact with our world, how we might spot one when it does...or anything, really...

Which made all his talk about "Demons" just empty word-strings, mere exhaust. What real-world observations could possibly evidence an entity neither of us could understand - and which apparently could be anywhere, any time, any thing! What actual facts might constitute a problem which this "Demon" explanation would solve?

All this could equally be applied to the gods, of course, or "life force", or "Earth energy" or "ghosts", or any of the other woo-woo favourites...

Paul.

[triadboy]

People like that live in a world of neurosis. This neurosis is manifested by the religion eating away at his mind. If you questioned him enough, he would easily believe YOU are a demon for putting evil thoughts in his head!

[homunculus]

People like that live in a world of neurosis. This neurosis is manifested by the religion eating away at his mind. If you questioned him enough, he would easily believe YOU are a demon for putting evil thoughts in his head!

Ha!

Sort of like the little boy who was convinced his toys would come alive - but only when he wasn't looking!

He hatched all kinds of contrived plots to catch them at it, but never managed it. With every failure, he only became more convinced of the cleverness of the toys...

Paul.

[kourama]

I remember a time in my life when I believed in this stuff. Looking back, I can understand how people can live with ideas that totally conflict with their reason.

I remember it being like this: imagine a page in a math book with the proposed problem at the top and the answer at the bottom. You have faith that the math book is correct, you see the question, you see the answer, and that tangled mess of greek symbols, equals signs and integrals in the middle looks pretty much like an explanation, but you're too tired to figure it all out, and it's late, and you have an 8:00am lecture tomorrow which is always too full, and you'll probably get a lousy seat or have to sit on the steps....

The thing is, he has faith in his source he remembers the answer: demons are real. The effort that is required to think things through from accepted facts to the conclusion: demons are real is just too difficult. Plus he's perhaps got a bible study tomorrow, and is so frutrated from self-denial and self-loathing that he figures he's too frail and human to figure it all out anyway.

Of course, I can't speak for everyone, but in my case wacko beliefs just sprang from intellectual laziness.

Anyway, to get back to the question: there is really nothing you can presetn to him to make him figure things out, there must be some personal motivation for him to re-examine the facts for himself.

[homunculus]

Anyway, to get back to the question: there is really nothing you can presetn to him to make him figure things out, there must be some personal motivation for him to re-examine the facts for himself.

To be honest, on the rare occasions I do get drawn into a debate in this area, it is more to sharpen my own ideas than to disabuse religionists of their illusions...

It's kind of "fun" (even though it is infuriating sometimes)!

Do you think I should just, like, get a life...?

Paul.

[Mike D.]

Paul,

I've read writings by believers in demonic possession that claim that demonic possession can be distinguished from other pathological mental conditions by the presence of such things as levitation on the part of the possessed person, supernatural strength, and the abilitiy to speak fluently in languages that the possessed person would not have had the opportunity to learn. It is claimed that exorcists sometimes encounter these phenomena in the process of conducting an exorcism.

Mike

[homunculus]

I've read writings by believers in demonic possession that claim that demonic possession can be distinguished from other pathological mental conditions by the presence of such things as levitation on the part of the possessed person, supernatural strength, and the abilitiy to speak fluently in languages that the possessed person would not have had the opportunity to learn...

Riiiiiiight.

I suppose it would be too much to expect some independantly corroborated, documentary evidence of this?

That film The Excorcist doesn't count!

Paul.

[Mike D.]

Originally posted by homunculus
I've read writings by believers in demonic possession that claim that demonic possession can be distinguished from other pathological mental conditions by the presence of such things as levitation on the part of the possessed person, supernatural strength, and the abilitiy to speak fluently in languages that the possessed person would not have had the opportunity to learn...

Riiiiiiight.

I suppose it would be too much to expect some independantly corroborated, documentary evidence of this?

That film The Excorcist doesn't count!

Paul.

Paul,

It's been a while since I've looked at any of this literature, and while there are certainly testimonials by alleged witnesses, I don't remember if any claims of the existence of independently corroborated, documentary evidence have been made. I guess someone would have to do a survey of the literature to see if any such claims have been made.

Mike

[Bentspoon]

Yeah there is always a lot of talk about the magical things that go on when a person is possessed. And yet, whenever there is one of those "documentary" "excorcism exposure" films on television, it is always just some person rolling their eyes and being belligerent while others drone incantations. All the levitation and magical stuff always happens somewhere else.

An idiot rolling around on the ground spitting out obscenities can be found in many bars on a Saturday night. Possession by demon rum says I.

It is just like TM flying. It is magical and mystical but have you seen it actually done. Laughable.

Bentspoon

[Correa Neto]

Demons, angels, ghosts, gods, gnomes et al.- theres no evidence for their existence (but the belief in them has affected -and in many cases guided- our culture).

People who belive that a given (usually bad) fact happened due to the works of the devil (or "god´s will') in many (if not most)cases are just taking out of their shoulders the responsability for their own acts. This "demonization" procces repeats itself through our history in all possible scales, ranging from an individual to a group of countries.

Something not going very well? Blame the devil, your neighbor, the muslims, the christians, the jews, the communists, the capitalists or the *place entity or religious/ethnical/political group of your choice here*. You have absolutely no responsability for it. Its someone else´s fault.

[hammegk]

Originally posted by Correa Neto
...You have absolutely no responsability for it. Its someone else´s fault.
Are you a lawyer?

Nevermind, it's a bit of an inside joke. :D Move along folks, nothing to see here.

[triadboy]

Originally posted by homunculus
Anyway, to get back to the question: there is really nothing you can presetn to him to make him figure things out, there must be some personal motivation for him to re-examine the facts for himself.

To be honest, on the rare occasions I do get drawn into a debate in this area, it is more to sharpen my own ideas than to disabuse religionists of their illusions...

It's kind of "fun" (even though it is infuriating sometimes)!

Do you think I should just, like, get a life...?

Paul.

I'm the same way. I love 'debating' xians - but I always ask, "Talking about this won't offend you, will it?" Of course, they say no. Then I probe them like a backwoods alien.

[Bikewer]

Actually, it's pretty easy to identify demons. They're the large, mishapen, green, scaly, toothy ones, as opposed to the vampires, which look just like ordinary people till they do that bumpy-face thing.

Gee, all you have to do is watch Buffy.....

[c4ts]

Homunculus, what your fundie acquaintance appears to be experiencing is a confusion of metaphor with reality. Demons are everywere, but they are not literal, in the sense that they are as real as flesh and blood. Therefore they are "manifest" in bad things that happen to people, as in disease or corruption. The metaphor itself is still real, the bad things are also real, so it may be easy to confuse the demons themselves with reality.

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by homunculus
I've posted about the problem- and solution-centred approach to philosophy/science etc. before, but a recent conversation (on IRC) with a Christian fundamentalist, got me thinking again. Among other fictions, this guy fervently believed in Demons (which he "described" as "fallen angels" - as if that clarifies anything!)

The questions I put him were, "How do you recognise a Demon when you see one?" and, "What criteria/procedures can separate genuine cases of posession, from (say) schizoid delusions?"

His replies were infuriating. After flatly proclaiming that Scripture was his only guide, and having me point out (very politely!) that this did not answer my questions, he eventually lost his temper, accusing me of being "foolish" since Demons can "assume any form or likeness" to decieve us...

Now, to this I had a (very reasonable, I thought) retort. He had effectively just admitted that there could not possibly be any way to tell ordinary, natural states of affairs from Demonic, supernatural ones (Demons, after all, can assume any form or likeness). From which follows, that despite all his confabulation, he had no idea "what" a Demon is, how such a thing might interact with our world, how we might spot one when it does...or anything, really...

Which made all his talk about "Demons" just empty word-strings, mere exhaust. What real-world observations could possibly evidence an entity neither of us could understand - and which apparently could be anywhere, any time, any thing! What actual facts might constitute a problem which this "Demon" explanation would solve?

All this could equally be applied to the gods, of course, or "life force", or "Earth energy" or "ghosts", or any of the other woo-woo favourites...

Paul.
Well, first I would question him to where he gathered his knowledge of demons. He might lie and say he learned it from the bible, you can say "there is no passage in the bible that talks about demon or satanic possession".

Second, you have to mention no evidence has ever been found that would suggest demons exist and also there is plenty of evidence to suggest demons do not and cannot exist. If he pulls a "How do you know", you can say "Common sense" and point out that "How do you know" is not reasoning to believe.

Nothing will really work. The person you had been talking with is obviously over the top and completely diluted. Poor little bugger, he could have grown up to make his meager existence of at least minimal worth... too bad he's been corrupted by religion. Hey, maybe he'll grow out it... (nah, thats being a bit too optimistic...)

[Yahweh]

Originally posted by Mike D.
Paul,

I've read writings by believers in demonic possession that claim that demonic possession can be distinguished from other pathological mental conditions by the presence of such things as levitation on the part of the possessed person, supernatural strength, and the abilitiy to speak fluently in languages that the possessed person would not have had the opportunity to learn. It is claimed that exorcists sometimes encounter these phenomena in the process of conducting an exorcism.

Mike
Welcome to the Land of Anecdote...

Demonic possession may or may not be distinguished from a pathological disease such as Schizophrenia (or Autism... hey, didnt that poor 9 year autistic boy died because the church was trying to drive the evil spirits out...).

Supernatural strength... nothing supernatural about it, maybe a bit extraordinary. Aside from crisis and emergency (and some illegal drugs), no one has ever summoned some kind of "superstrength" that could be described as supernatural.

Speaking in tongues... now, there has never been a single instance where a person began spontaneously speaking fluent Aramaic or other language without having been pre-disposed to it. This is what I like: "They began rambling in some kind of language, I think it was Russian... now I dont speak or know a single word or Russian, but I'm sure they were speaking flawless fluent Russian"... funny stuff...

[Some Friggin Guy]

It is just like TM flying. It is magical and mystical but have you seen it actually done. Laughable

Actually, I think I may have seen this.


Though, to be perfectly accurate, I'm not sure if the pilot was deeply meditating or was having some kind of siezure.


He was flying, though.


Well, actually, the co-pilot was, but that's not the point!

[calladus]

Originally posted by kourama
I remember a time in my life when I believed in this stuff. Looking back, I can understand how people can live with ideas that totally conflict with their reason.
As a Christian I believed devoutly in things such as demons or devils. Couldn't have angels w/out devils, right?

Believing in demons scared the s**t out of me - kinda like the adult version of the monster under the bed. Atheism lets me sleep a lot more soundly!

[calladus]

Originally posted by Yahweh

Nothing will really work. The person you had been talking with is obviously over the top and completely diluted. Yea! He ought'a cut back on what ever it is that he's bin drinkin'!

:wink8:

[Silicon]

Originally posted by Some Friggin Guy

He was flying, though.


Well, actually, the co-pilot was, but that's not the point!

You mean God was flying?

[Bookwyrm]

*wanders through*

Originally posted by Yahweh

Well, first I would question him to where he gathered his knowledge of demons. He might lie and say he learned it from the bible, you can say "there is no passage in the bible that talks about demon or satanic possession".

You mean except for this bit:

Luke as translated by the authors of the NIV Bible says:

26They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!" 29For Jesus had commanded the evil spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.
30Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"
31"Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
32A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into them, and he gave them permission. 33When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

Though this passage isn't particularly helpful for the fundy mentioned in the OP as it doesn't give any criteria to use to distinguish possession from strange/insane behavior with a purely natural cause.

*goes back to lurking*

[triadboy]

Originally posted by Bookwyrm
[BThough this passage isn't particularly helpful for the fundy mentioned in the OP as it doesn't give any criteria to use to distinguish possession from strange/insane behavior with a purely natural cause.[/B]

I've read the occupying forces in Jerusalem after the destruction was a Roman Legion whose guidon bore a pig. Perhaps this is a secret message to people about the hoped-for fate of these forces.

[imekon]

It took me a long time to pluck up the courage to discuss my exorcism with a medical counsellor. My christian friends had warned me that a secular doctor wouldn't understand and that my faith would be shattered.

My faith was shattered long before I did talk to a counsellor, so it didn't matter much to me. Imagine my surprise when it turns out that what happened to me was very easily explained, and that these people who told me I was possessed were so wrong and had no right to mess up my life.

[Flaherty]

Originally posted by homunculus
It's kind of "fun" (even though it is infuriating sometimes)!


Putting the fun back in fundamentalism!