There's no such thing as the "Paranormal"?

[woowoowoo]

Hi everyone,

OK, the point of this post is to seek the opinions of others.

We have all heard anecdotal evidence and stories for paranormal events or These anecdotal stories are as old as mankind, perhaps. By their very nature, these one off "unexplainable" events can not be reproduced in a laboratory environment and are therefore dismissed, "debunked" or simply ignored.

But what happens should one of us know of a "paranormal" event happening and it defies rational explanation?

I know of such an event happening to two witnesses.

There is no point me describing the event here as no one is going to believe it anyway and I could just be making the whole thing up, being an anonymous poster on the interweb. I have no evidence.

So let's assume I'm telling the truth when I say two people experienced something that is, in theory, against the known laws of physics.

The two people concerned:

Were independent witnesses to the same phenomenon happening at the same time.Both turned to each other to confirm they'd just experienced what they just experienced!

Both were sober; not on drugs

Both were wide awake, not asleep, not daydreaming, not in an "Asleep but actually you think you're wide awake" type state that the debunkers are very fond of!

Neither witness had any reason to lie to me (family members: I trust what they told me as much as you can trust anyone.)

Neither witness sought publicity or financial gain: so I can rule out fraud as a motive (the event was pretty mild: hardly likely to earn them a lucrative career on chat shows!)

The event happened in a London Council house: blaming it on environmental conditions such as "a chill in the basement" is out of the question. It happened in the front room of a council house with no history of "hauntings" or paranormal "phenomenon"

The event was backed up a few minutes later by a phone call to a London hospital to confirm that a dear friend of one of the witnesses had passed away roughly the same time as the event.

So, I know this "thing" happened and I know there's no rational explanation.

Debunking these two witnesses is not possible for me (any "rational" explanations become wildly insane: "Perhaps they were the victims of a hidden camera type show with a trick being played on them by a tv crew who had managed to hide away in their tiny council flat...")

So, I'm left unable to explain what happened and unable to provide evidence it happened. But, I'm personally satisfied that "paranormal events" can and do happen.

And I guess that a small percentage of the population have experienced similar events (An "spooky" thing happening at the time of a loved ones death).

Your opinions and thoughts would be welcome.

[Tristan Chi]

two people experienced something

I don't believe you! :p

[dacium2007]

Firstly, I think you should explain what happened. An outside view can look at things very differently, and alot of people here have had similair things happen and rational thinking has found highly likly answers. Is it actually a paranormal event, or something that is an extreme coincidence?

Usually there is a rational path of information, that is mixed with a coincidence(s). For example there was one case of 2 people dreaming their friend had died in a car crash, and waking up to find it was true. They dreamed the same thing because they had both been talking to the friend and knew he was going to drive. The rest was coincidence - they had probably had similair dreams before but they never came up.

Also to me it doesn't matter how many people were involved. What would matter to me is the people themselves. People who believe in woo-woo already are much more likly to think something paranormal happened. There are numerous instances in history (some mass gatherings) where heaps of people claim a paranormal activity occured, while only a minority of people claim they were there and saw no such paranormal activity.

[woowoowoo]

Ok, I will say that "something" (invisible) "slithered" down the wall of their front room. "It" made a terrible noise that scared the wotsits out of both of them.

(No it wasn't a poster falling of the wall :) )

At which point, after confirming they'd both heard it, the female witness said "Sarah has just died" and phoned the hospital to confirm.

[m_huber]

The whole problem with anecdotal evidence is that it is dependent on human senses. Unfortunately, our minds tell us thing happen that don't really happen. Simple illusions are incredibly common. An event such as you hint at could be explained by numerous factors in the building that may have caused your relatives to think that they saw/felt a ghost, when really it was something ordinary, but not often in the situation. (Hard to analyze with the sketchy description). The key feature to this story that makes it a little "spooky" is the fact that a friend died at around the same time. That may, though, be the key to the story. Assuming that they are not outright lying about the event (which does happen, especially if your relatives are anything like mine), then simply having an ill friend in the hospital may have triggered the thought process that would allow them to immediately interpret whatever they saw/felt as a ghost.

Or it could have been a ghost.

The whole deal with belief in such events is that it is a choice. Agent Mulder always kept the poster in his office, "I want to believe." If you have made up your mind, then no matter how detailed an explanation anyone gives, you will still be convinced that it was a ghost. I would warn you on this one, though, that staking your theological position on something somebody else said that they saw may not be the best bet. You might want to wait until you get a visitation for yourself before committing totally.

[Jimcalagon]

Ok, I will say that "something" (invisible) "slithered" down the wall of their front room. "It" made a terrible noise that scared the wotsits out of both of them.

(No it wasn't a poster falling of the wall :) )

At which point, after confirming they'd both heard it, the female witness said "Sarah has just died" and phoned the hospital to confirm.

Possibly some builders' rubble falling down the inside of the cavity wall? That would be my first guess.

Was it an old house or new?

I assume that Sarah was known to be very ill in hospital - otherwise how would they have known which hospital to phone? Did Sarah die at the exact time of the 'slither' or was it an hour or hours before?

I would guess that Sarah's condition was very much on the minds of the witnesses, there was an unexplained (but completely natural) noise which caused the female witness to voice her fears and phone the hospital.

[Tristan Chi]

And since the slithering was performed by an invisible entity, I assume that the experience was entirely audial, right? Wouldn't it then be more surprising if they hadn't both heard the same thing?

[woowoowoo]

Well, all I can say is that I trust the two witnesses as much as it's possible you can trust any adult you know and love (and who love you!) not to be totally making something up.

For me, the idea that they are lying is not an option.

They might be mistaken by an "illusion" but I've ruled that out based on my knowledge of them personally and the house involved.

If they'd heard a slight creak in a floorboard in a rickety old house followed by a door slam then I'd dismiss it.

The sound heard was frightening enough, loud enough and distinct/original enough to make them both turn to each other to ask "My God! Did you hear that?..."

I've got to go out now, I'll check this thread for opinions later.

Thanks.

[woowoowoo]

I should add that the sound was on the inside of the room! In a room off the ground (no kids outside banging on the wall, builders, cats, foxes etc etc.)

And I can prove none of this, of course!

[fls]

Hi everyone,

OK, the point of this post is to seek the opinions of others.

We have all heard anecdotal evidence and stories for paranormal events or These anecdotal stories are as old as mankind, perhaps. By their very nature, these one off "unexplainable" events can not be reproduced in a laboratory environment and are therefore dismissed, "debunked" or simply ignored.

But what happens should one of us know of a "paranormal" event happening and it defies rational explanation?

Your opinions and thoughts would be welcome.

Your story does not defy rational explanation. Rather, as is the nature of these circumstances, one can not determine what rational explanation accounts for the event or rule-out all possible explanations. And that is the information that would be necessary in order to label it as a paranormal event. What you 'know' is that the explanation is unknown. However, the leap from "I don't know the explanation" to "therefore there cannot be an explanation" is erroneous. The average person tends to be unfamiliar with the ways in which our minds conspire with the circumstances to create these mysteries, leaving them unskilled at making the evaluation. When the opportunity arises to adequately investigate these events, normal explanations are inevitably discovered.

It is not that we don't believe you. It is that we don't believe you or your friends are up to the job of truly eliminating all normal explanations. I'm not up to the job. Maybe nobody is. Although, if Joe Nickell stated he came across a situation he truly thought had to be without a normal explanation, I'd take his opinion very seriously. The difference between you and me is that when faced with "I don't know" I accept it as mere ignorance on my part. I have yet to be persuaded that others aren't similarly ignorant, despite protestations to the contrary, since the evidence has never indicated otherwise.

Linda

[RenaissanceBiker]

I think the unexplained sound and Sarah's death are coincindences. They knew this person Sarah was ill and in the hospital. They were concerned about her. So they associated this sound with something bad happening to her and then it was confirmed. There could have been any number of things that happened to make them think of her. I'll bet it wasn't the first time they called to check on her. They dismissed the others as instances as meaningless and attached meaning to the one that confirmed their fear.

How many other people died in London around that time that may have caused the noise? If you are going to assume it was a ghost, how do you know it was Sarah's? This ghostly manifestation and Sarah's death may also be a coincidence.

ETA: Welcome to the forum, Woowoowoo and the other new members here.

[Southwind17]

Let's consider what we seem to 'know' here:

Two people in a room, one, if not both, anticipating the death of a loved one, possibly of a superstitious disposition (why else was the hospital called?).
'Strange event' occurs (it could be anything seemingly abnormal - anything 'abnormal' fits the bill just as well as everything else 'abnormal').
Automatic reaction is often to read something into 'strange event'. What's the obvious conclusion to jump to?

Now, how many people die each day? And how many seemingly strange events occur each day? What's the probability of these coinciding? I don't know the answer, but I do know it will be a large number.

It's all down to a combination of expectation and probability. It's like watching 'Ghost Hunters' on TV. Strange that they always hear noises isn't it, just when they're hoping or expecting to!

[tsg]

So, I know this "thing" happened and I know there's no rational explanation.

No, you don't. You weren't there and only have their say so that anything happened.

[Denver]

Ok, I will say that "something" (invisible) "slithered" down the wall of their front room. "It" made a terrible noise that scared the wotsits out of both of them.

(No it wasn't a poster falling of the wall :) )

At which point, after confirming they'd both heard it, the female witness said "Sarah has just died" and phoned the hospital to confirm.

It is also common human experience to try to fill in the blanks when we are presented with partial data.

So for instance, these people heard something. Because they could not see anything, that determined it must be something 'invisible'. But wouldn't a more reasonable and ordinary explanation be that what they heard was simply out of view? Locating an unseen source of a sound is not as easy as it sounds (no pun intended). We have zones of ambiguity in our audio perception that can make it literally impossible to determine, with 100% accuracy, the direction that some sounds come from. (look up "sound localization ambiguity" for more info there).

But now that they've determined it was inivisible, they begin attributing intelligent elements to it: slithering. Now that they have "invisible slithering" in their minds, it reinforces the idea that something supernatural is involved. And since they have an acquaintance very ill in the hospital, well, the rest can write itself.

[JoeEllison]

They could just be wrong, which is much more likely than the laws of physics being violated.

[remirol]

I know of such an event happening to two witnesses.


Restated: two people told you something happened.

Ok, I will say that "something" (invisible) "slithered" down the wall of their front room.

Restated: two people heard a slithering noise from the wall of their front room.

So let's assume I'm telling the truth when I say two people experienced something that is, in theory, against the known laws of physics.

Gracious, let's not assume all that! Let's assume that two people told you they heard a slithering noise on a particular night and were unable to determine the source of that noise.

The two people concerned:
-- Were independent witnesses to the same phenomenon happening at the same time.
-- Both turned to each other to confirm they'd just experienced what they just experienced!
-- Both were sober; not on drugs
-- Both were wide awake, not asleep, not daydreaming, not in an "Asleep but actually you think you're wide awake" type state that the debunkers are very fond of!

Fair enough; these are all relatively reasonable assumptions.


Neither witness had any reason to lie to me (family members: I trust what they told me as much as you can trust anyone.)


The statement "nobody had any reason to lie to me" is almost meaningless, in general; usually the implied "because" the speaker is basing the statement on can also be a lie or false/incorrect assumption.

However, in this specific case I agree that there is little reason to doubt that they both heard a noise, as the claim by itself is far from extraordinary.

Neither witness sought publicity or financial gain: so I can rule out fraud as a motive (the event was pretty mild: hardly likely to earn them a lucrative career on chat shows!)


Unless, of course, they were counting on you to immediately spread it far and wide via word-of-mouth.

The event happened in a London Council house: blaming it on environmental conditions such as "a chill in the basement" is out of the question.

You don't even know what the environmental conditions were, though. You weren't there, and they didn't tell you. You cannot dismiss all such explanations related to "environmental conditions" in this fashion.

It happened in the front room of a council house

You can likely dismiss "the basement is cold" at this point, since it happened in the front room. ;)

with no history of "hauntings" or paranormal "phenomenon"

Past performance can often be no useful predictor of future results.

At which point, after confirming they'd both heard it, the female witness said "Sarah has just died" and phoned the hospital to confirm.

Why should this not be considered a complete coincidence?

Noises from the wall typically do not provoke one to think "my friend has just died" under normal circumstances, do they? It is likely that the female witness had Sarah's illness on her mind already and was thus predisposed to call up the hospital on any pretext to check on Sarah, whether that be unexplainable noise or offhand mention of something else.

So, I know this "thing" happened

No, you believe your friends when they said they heard a noise. You don't "know" anything -- you weren't there yourself.

and I know there's no rational explanation.

There is absolutely no logical support in your message for this statement.

There are a number of rational explanations for why you could hear a noise from a wall -- my first guess would be "Rat, mouse, or rodent inside the wall". I have myself previously heard slithering sounds inside walls that did indeed turn out to be rats/rodents when investigated.

Debunking these two witnesses is not possible for me

...Because you _want_ to believe. But the facts don't support the conclusion.

(any "rational" explanations become wildly insane: "Perhaps they were the victims of a hidden camera type show with a trick being played on them by a tv crew who had managed to hide away in their tiny council flat...")

This is a bit of a strawman, of course, as rational explanations would be rational. Hidden camera shows are not paranormal, but are ridiculously uncommon, and thus are also not a rational explanation either.

So, I'm left unable to explain what happened and unable to provide evidence it happened. But, I'm personally satisfied that "paranormal events" can and do happen.

Your threshold for belief is extremely low, I'm afraid; I'd say you were already a believer before this event even occurred.

[tsig]

Hi everyone,

OK, the point of this post is to seek the opinions of others.

We have all heard anecdotal evidence and stories for paranormal events or These anecdotal stories are as old as mankind, perhaps. By their very nature, these one off "unexplainable" events can not be reproduced in a laboratory environment and are therefore dismissed, "debunked" or simply ignored.

But what happens should one of us know of a "paranormal" event happening and it defies rational explanation?

I know of such an event happening to two witnesses.

There is no point me describing the event here as no one is going to believe it anyway and I could just be making the whole thing up, being an anonymous poster on the interweb. I have no evidence.

So let's assume I'm telling the truth when I say two people experienced something that is, in theory, against the known laws of physics.

The two people concerned:

Were independent witnesses to the same phenomenon happening at the same time.Both turned to each other to confirm they'd just experienced what they just experienced!

Both were sober; not on drugs

Both were wide awake, not asleep, not daydreaming, not in an "Asleep but actually you think you're wide awake" type state that the debunkers are very fond of!

Neither witness had any reason to lie to me (family members: I trust what they told me as much as you can trust anyone.)

Neither witness sought publicity or financial gain: so I can rule out fraud as a motive (the event was pretty mild: hardly likely to earn them a lucrative career on chat shows!)

The event happened in a London Council house: blaming it on environmental conditions such as "a chill in the basement" is out of the question. It happened in the front room of a council house with no history of "hauntings" or paranormal "phenomenon"

The event was backed up a few minutes later by a phone call to a London hospital to confirm that a dear friend of one of the witnesses had passed away roughly the same time as the event.

So, I know this "thing" happened and I know there's no rational explanation.

Debunking these two witnesses is not possible for me (any "rational" explanations become wildly insane: "Perhaps they were the victims of a hidden camera type show with a trick being played on them by a tv crew who had managed to hide away in their tiny council flat...")

So, I'm left unable to explain what happened and unable to provide evidence it happened. But, I'm personally satisfied that "paranormal events" can and do happen.

And I guess that a small percentage of the population have experienced similar events (An "spooky" thing happening at the time of a loved ones death).

Your opinions and thoughts would be welcome.

So the dead friend had nothing better to do? What a cheesy afterlife.

[Alice Shortcake]

If these two people had heard a mysterious noise in the house the day before Sarah's death would they have made a connection between the two events? Was the noise heard a few minutes before the phone call was made? A few hours? Was Sarah's condition so serious your witnesses were expecting her death, and therefore in an anxious state of mind that made them unusually conscious of noises they may not otherwise have noticed?

[Southwind17]

Restated: two people told you something happened.

Restated: two people heard a slithering noise from the wall of their front room.

Gracious, let's not assume all that! Let's assume that two people told you they heard a slithering noise on a particular night and were unable to determine the source of that noise.

Fair enough; these are all relatively reasonable assumptions.

The statement "nobody had any reason to lie to me" is almost meaningless, in general; usually the implied "because" the speaker is basing the statement on can also be a lie or false/incorrect assumption.

However, in this specific case I agree that there is little reason to doubt that they both heard a noise, as the claim by itself is far from extraordinary.

Unless, of course, they were counting on you to immediately spread it far and wide via word-of-mouth.

You don't even know what the environmental conditions were, though. You weren't there, and they didn't tell you. You cannot dismiss all such explanations related to "environmental conditions" in this fashion.

You can likely dismiss "the basement is cold" at this point, since it happened in the front room. ;)

Past performance can often be no useful predictor of future results.

Why should this not be considered a complete coincidence?

Noises from the wall typically do not provoke one to think "my friend has just died" under normal circumstances, do they? It is likely that the female witness had Sarah's illness on her mind already and was thus predisposed to call up the hospital on any pretext to check on Sarah, whether that be unexplainable noise or offhand mention of something else.

No, you believe your friends when they said they heard a noise. You don't "know" anything -- you weren't there yourself.

There is absolutely no logical support in your message for this statement.

There are a number of rational explanations for why you could hear a noise from a wall -- my first guess would be "Rat, mouse, or rodent inside the wall". I have myself previously heard slithering sounds inside walls that did indeed turn out to be rats/rodents when investigated.

...Because you _want_ to believe. But the facts don't support the conclusion.

This is a bit of a strawman, of course, as rational explanations would be rational. Hidden camera shows are not paranormal, but are ridiculously uncommon, and thus are also not a rational explanation either.

Your threshold for belief is extremely low, I'm afraid; I'd say you were already a believer before this event even occurred.

This is very good remirol; you'll go places here. And welcome! ;)

[Southwind17]

Hi everyone,

OK, the point of this post is to seek the opinions of others

Oh, OK, fair enough.

So, I know this "thing" happened and I know there's no rational explanation.

Oh, I see, so you're interest in others' opinions is ...?

Debunking these two witnesses is not possible for me (any "rational" explanations become wildly insane: "Perhaps they were the victims of a hidden camera type show with a trick being played on them by a tv crew who had managed to hide away in their tiny council flat...")

Oh, so any such opinions are worthless then!

So, I'm left unable to explain what happened and unable to provide evidence it happened. But, I'm personally satisfied that "paranormal events" can and do happen.

Oh, so you're not really interested in any opinions at all. I see.

And I guess that a small percentage of the population have experienced similar events (An "spooky" thing happening at the time of a loved ones death).

Your opinions and thoughts would be welcome.

Welcome! By whom? Oh I get it - you've got a fool-proof(!) case, and woe betide anybody who dares to challenge it. Or am I completely off beam here and you're seeking opinions on your intellectual approach to considering the seemingly unusual? Could be that.

...Because you _want_ to believe. But the facts don't support the conclusion.

Your threshold for belief is extremely low, I'm afraid; I'd say you were already a believer before this event even occurred.

I think woowoowoo's words are quite revealing, and I'm with you on this one remirol!

[remirol]

This is very good remirol; you'll go places here. And welcome! ;)

Heh. Thanks. I'm learning. ;) Though the 'new blood' is deceptive; I think I joined officially over a year ago, and have tended to be a lurker :boxedin: due to lack of time in general.