What about bigfoot or a yeti?

[Abdul Alhazred]

OK it's exactly not a supernatural or paranormal claim, but <u>The Skepical Inquirer</u> magazine published by CSICOP (which Randi is associated with) has spent a significant amount of effort debunking that such a thing exists.

What if I come up with one? Do I get a million dollars?

If the answer is yes, I will present my hairy, big footed self.

[arcticpenguin]

My guess is no; finding a previously undiscovered species would be new science, but it would not be either paranormal or pseudoscience. This is my guess, I am not an official spokesperson for JREF.

[Beleth]

As Bigfoot is not a "psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability", demonstrating the existence of such a creature would not be a qualifying act for the Challenge.

[Peter Morris]

Penta water also isn't "psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability" either, but Randi has invited them to apply for the prize, see:http://www.randi.org/jr/07-13-01.html etc

[ceptimus]

Penta water is pseudoscience though, and qualifies in that category. Bigfoot/Yeti is not (quite) pseudoscience.

[Peter Morris]

Define "pseudoscience"

Who decides exactly what is or is not acceptable for the test, and on what basis?

[Abdul Alhazred]

Originally posted by Peter Morris
Define "pseudoscience"

Who decides exactly what is or is not acceptable for the test, and on what basis?

Presumably Randi decides.

It seems to me that Randi's challenge is properly focused on scams that cost people money (like Penta water or dowsing) or beliefs that cause people to live their lives differently (psychic stuff in general).

<u>The Skeptical Inquirer</u> on the other hand, tends to sweat the small stuff. I don't lose money or live my life differently if I happen to be of the opinion that there's a large ape native to Oregon, even if I'm wrong.

[Beleth]

Originally posted by Peter Morris
Penta water also isn't "psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability" either, but Randi has invited them to apply for the prize, see:http://www.randi.org/jr/07-13-01.html etc
The rapid plant-growing ability the Penta people claim Penta water has is a paranormal ability, and that's why it qualifies.

The only abilities people have claimed for Bigfoot are existence and having large feet, neither of which are paranormal.

[neutrino_cannon]

Originally posted by Abdul Alhazred
<u>The Skepical Inquirer</u> magazine published by CSICOP (which Randi is associated with)

Randi cut any official associations with the organization to prevent them being affected by one of Gellor's frivolous lawsuits. Unless of course i'm behind the times.

[Rolfe]

I got this as the excuse when I threw Randi's challenge at an uppity homoeopath.

Basically, he declared that homoeopathy wasn't paranormal, but was real science, so it wasn't eligible. :rolleyes:

Of course Randi himself has declared that anyone who can tell homoeopathic water from ordinary water by any means they like (he forgot dowsing, which some homoeopaths actually use to select their remedy!) will win. Just like Penta water, really.

It's an intersting philosophical point though. To win, you have to demonstrate that the effect or power you have is repeatable under standardised testing. Anything which is repeatable under standardised testing isn't paranormal, it's a natural effect we just don't yet fully understand. So, by "winning", would an applicant automatically disqualify himself?

Rolfe.

[NoZed Avenger]

Winning wins. Period. Whether the demonstration turns out to be mainstrewam science ina few years or a bad acid trip -- does not effect the test results.

The test does not require them to do anything other than what both parties agree to. If their plants grow faster with Penta-Water (and that is the subject of the test), then they've met the challenge and get the money. Period.

You may also want to search for other, earlier threads on this topic.

N/A

[Rolfe]

Originally posted by NoZed Avenger
Winning wins. Period. Whether the demonstration turns out to be mainstrewam science ina few years or a bad acid trip -- does not effect the test results.

The test does not require them to do anything other than what both parties agree to. If their plants grow faster with Penta-Water (and that is the subject of the test), then they've met the challenge and get the money. Period.

You may also want to search for other, earlier threads on this topic.

N/A

I know, I know. It's just that the number of excuses the frauds turn up when faced with the challenge never ceases to amaze me.

The simple response "oh, I wouldn't enter because...." is enough to sort the deluded from the frauds, in my opinion. But that latest wriggle from the homoeopath was an interesting philosophical one.

Besides being (to me) an acceptable answer to a frequent question - do these medically qualified doctors who peddle homoeopathy believe what they say, sincerely, or are they just in it for the money? However much they may declare their sincerity, and maybe even believe it on one level or another, if the belief was sincere, they'd just be asking "where do I download the application form?".

Rolfe.