SIX hijackers on AAL77?

[A-Train]

Here is a fascinating talk given by a woman who was a flight attendant for American Airlines, and a close friend of many of those on AAL77, including stewardess Renee May.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7727057620927221858

She emphatically refutes the notion, popular among some truther crackpots, that AAL77 did not strike the Pentagon. But the most interesting part is when she addresses the phone call made by her close friend Renee May to May's mother. You can fast forward to minute 9 to hear this segment.

She spoke personally to May's mother, who reported that Renee had stated that there were six hijackers on board, not the five of the official story. The FBI questioners apparently rejected this evidence, and told May's mother that Renee must have been wrong.

Since Renee May was the only eyewitness to the hijacking of AAL77, how can the FBI decide that there were only five hijackers instead of the six reported by May? It makes you wonder how many of the other recipients of phone calls from the planes had their stories "corrected" by the FBI if they didn't agree with the story put out by Chertoff & Co. How about the 9/11 operator who said Ed Felt reported smoke and an explosion from UAL93? Or Deena Burnett reporting her husband's witnessing of guns in the possession of the hijackers? And by the way, have any of the passengers' phone calls reported the "correct" number of hijackers on board?

And finally, why has the media been completely silent about this anomaly? I don't recall any reports that May had reported six hijackers on AAL77.

[CptColumbo]

What "Chertoff & Co." are you refering to? There wasn't even a Department of Homeland Security in 2001, let alone Michael Chertoff being it's head.

Have you actually looked into why the FBI says there are 5 hijackers?

[DGM]

Here is a fascinating talk given by a woman who was a flight attendant for American Airlines, and a close friend of many of those on AAL77, including stewardess Renee May.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7727057620927221858

She emphatically refutes the notion, popular among some truther crackpots, that AAL77 did not strike the Pentagon. But the most interesting part is when she addresses the phone call made by her close friend Renee May to May's mother. You can fast forward to minute 9 to hear this segment.

She spoke personally to May's mother, who reported that Renee had stated that there were six hijackers on board, not the five of the official story. The FBI questioners apparently rejected this evidence, and told May's mother that Renee must have been wrong.

Since Renee May was the only eyewitness to the hijacking of AAL77, how can the FBI decide that there were only five hijackers instead of the six reported by May? It makes you wonder how many of the other recipients of phone calls from the planes had their stories "corrected" by the FBI if they didn't agree with the story put out by Chertoff & Co. How about the 9/11 operator who said Ed Felt reported smoke and an explosion from UAL93? Or Deena Burnett reporting her husband's witnessing of guns in the possession of the hijackers? And by the way, have any of the passengers' phone calls reported the "correct" number of hijackers on board?

And finally, why has the media been completely silent about this anomaly? I don't recall any reports that May had reported six hijackers on AAL77.
Well if there was a sixth hijacker he should be put to death. The sixth hijacker that is.:rolleyes:

[DGM]

But seriously, Don't you think the FBI might have checked into all the passengers. Maybe only five proved to be extremists. They might just check that sort of thing, right?

[Brainster]

Here is a fascinating talk given by a woman who was a flight attendant for American Airlines, and a close friend of many of those on AAL77, including stewardess Renee May.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7727057620927221858

She emphatically refutes the notion, popular among some truther crackpots, that AAL77 did not strike the Pentagon. But the most interesting part is when she addresses the phone call made by her close friend Renee May to May's mother. You can fast forward to minute 9 to hear this segment.

She spoke personally to May's mother, who reported that Renee had stated that there were six hijackers on board, not the five of the official story. The FBI questioners apparently rejected this evidence, and told May's mother that Renee must have been wrong.

Since Renee May was the only eyewitness to the hijacking of AAL77, how can the FBI decide that there were only five hijackers instead of the six reported by May? It makes you wonder how many of the other recipients of phone calls from the planes had their stories "corrected" by the FBI if they didn't agree with the story put out by Chertoff & Co. How about the 9/11 operator who said Ed Felt reported smoke and an explosion from UAL93? Or Deena Burnett reporting her husband's witnessing of guns in the possession of the hijackers? And by the way, have any of the passengers' phone calls reported the "correct" number of hijackers on board?

And finally, why has the media been completely silent about this anomaly? I don't recall any reports that May had reported six hijackers on AAL77.

The video is from the 2002 Conference on Political Assassinations, an annual convention of JFK/MLK/RFK "researchers". Ms May might have reported six hijackers to her mother; we only have T Carter's word for that. And some of her other claims are a little bizarre, such as supposedly she herself saw a person's arm at the Pentagon a few days later?

However, confusion about the number of hijackers was common; most of the passengers on Flight 93 reported three hijackers, not four, probably because Ziad Jarrah remained seated until the cockpit was open and the pilots were slain. In the heat of the moment is it surprising that a woman who has probably seen several people killed by a small group of men, might think it was six instead of four or five?

I did enjoy tweaking Mr Pentacon over at 9-11 Blogger (http://www.911blogger.com/node/12515) about this.

ETA: My bad, she does not say she saw the arm personally. I conflated two bits of what she said.

[dudalb]

Oh please, not the Mossad agents who parachuted off the planes crap again from A Train.

[Jonnyclueless]

So in order for an additional passenger to sneak onboard without checking in or showing any trail of their existence would mean that the crew of the plane was also in on it. Thus giving up their own lives and playing roles in this operation so that some old people could get rich.

Or, she could have simply mis-counted. Hmm, which could it be....

[MIKILLINI]

So there were hijackers, and the plane crashed into the Pentagon. Now imagine, if you will, A-train, how things go in tragedies; Early reports from interviews and eyewitness reports come in and they are are not entirely accurate. After more thorough investigations are carried out, there becomes a different assessment and information than what was initially claimed. You are grasping for straws.

[jhunter1163]

Wouldn't this so-called sixth hijacker have left DNA? They identified all of the passengers except an infant. Where's the extra DNA profile that this hijacker would have left?

Also, wasn't Barbara Olson on that flight? Did she say in her call how many hijackers there were?

[Slayhamlet]

Ah yes, the sixth hijacker was an obvious Mossad agent of Sephardic extraction who duped five "cavemen" Arabs into a suicide mission by pretending to be fanatically Islamic, but was able to survive by jumping out of the plane at the last minute via the nose gear door. Is that about right?

[MikeW]

Ms May might have reported six hijackers to her mother; we only have T Carter's word for that.
No, the Commission said that too (http://911myths.com/index.php/American_Airlines_Flight_77_Calls).

[dudalb]

Ah yes, the sixth hijacker was an obvious Mossad agent of Sephardic extraction who duped five "cavemen" Arabs into a suicide mission by pretending to be fanatically Islamic, but was able to survive by jumping out of the plane at the last minute via the nose gear door. Is that about right?


Yuppers,that's A Train's theory on 9/11.

[A-Train]

So in order for an additional passenger to sneak onboard without checking in or showing any trail of their existence would mean that the crew of the plane was also in on it. Thus giving up their own lives and playing roles in this operation so that some old people could get rich.

Or, she could have simply mis-counted. Hmm, which could it be....

I think you're suffering from cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). You don't seem to comprehend the possibility that some of the hijackers may have been American looking and acting, perhaps dressed in suits and ties like a businessman, who boarded the flight under their real names. Perhaps of the five Arabs on the manifest for AAL77, only one or two of them were who they said they were-- and were thus patsies who boarded the flights unwittingly and had nothing to do with the hijackings.

Some of the other "Arabs" may have been agents, blessed with dark skin, who had stolen the identities of real Arabs, and who would play the role of Arabs on the flight.

Remember Betty Ong's report of the seat numbers of the hijackers on AAL11. Two of them were assigned to "American" businessmen. Two others were assigned to Wail and Waleed al-Shehrri--- who of course we all know turned up alive and well in the Middle East, and thus were not on the flight in the first place.

[Slayhamlet]

I think you're suffering from cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). You don't seem to comprehend the possibility that some of the hijackers may have been American looking and acting, perhaps dressed in suits and ties like a businessman, who boarded the flight under their real names. Perhaps of the five Arabs on the manifest for AAL77, only one or two of them were who they said they were-- and were thus patsies who boarded the flights unwittingly and had nothing to do with the hijackings.

Some of the other "Arabs" may have been agents, blessed with dark skin, who had stolen the identities of real Arabs, and who would play the role of Arabs on the flight.

Remember Betty Ong's report of the seat numbers of the hijackers on AAL11. Two of them were assigned to "American" businessmen. Two others were assigned to Wail and Waleed al-Shehrri--- who of course we all know turned up alive and well in the Middle East, and thus were not on the flight in the first place.

I knew it!

:dl:

[A-Train]

But seriously, Don't you think the FBI might have checked into all the passengers. Maybe only five proved to be extremists. They might just check that sort of thing, right?

So the evidence doesn't matter, only that the FBI has decided you are an "extremist"?

And how does one decide who is an extremist? Was elite Israeli commando and AAL11 passenger Danny Lewin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_M._Lewin) an extremist? As far as I am concerned, he was/is.

Most of the 19 alleged Arab hijackers, on the other hand, were middle class professionals with no background of extremism of any kind.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I think you're suffering from cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance). You don't seem to comprehend the possibility that some of the hijackers may have been American looking and acting, perhaps dressed in suits and ties like a businessman, who boarded the flight under their real names. Perhaps of the five Arabs on the manifest for AAL77, only one or two of them were who they said they were-- and were thus patsies who boarded the flights unwittingly and had nothing to do with the hijackings.

Some of the other "Arabs" may have been agents, blessed with dark skin, who had stolen the identities of real Arabs, and who would play the role of Arabs on the flight.

Remember Betty Ong's report of the seat numbers of the hijackers on AAL11. Two of them were assigned to "American" businessmen. Two others were assigned to Wail and Waleed al-Shehrri--- who of course we all know turned up alive and well in the Middle East, and thus were not on the flight in the first place.
Could you please, for the love of Aristotle, try to stop making huge leaps in conclusions?

Given: We have anecdotal evidence of anecdotal evidence that there were six hijackers on the plane
* What other anecdotal evidence corroborates the above?
* What anecdotal evidence conflicts with the above?
* What empirical evidence corroborates the above?
* What empirical evidence conflicts with the above?

If we treat the statement, "There were six hijackers, not five, on AA77," as our hypothesis; what would falsify (be the null hypothesis) to the claim?

For the love of FSM, you're trying to justify whom you think the sixth was, without first proving there was a sixth.

[A-Train]

The video is from the 2002 Conference on Political Assassinations, an annual convention of JFK/MLK/RFK "researchers". Ms May might have reported six hijackers to her mother; we only have T Carter's word for that. And some of her other claims are a little bizarre, such as supposedly she herself saw a person's arm at the Pentagon a few days later?

No. Listen again. She didn't say she herself saw a person's arm at the Pentagon. What she said (7:35) was that a person's arm was found at the Pentagon and that "we buried it" in Washington DC.

By the way, since I now doubt your credibility, I'd like to know how you know this was from a 2002 Conference on Political Assassinations.

[T.A.M.]

Well since we have always doubted your credibility....


TAM:)

[MIKILLINI]

You don't seem to comprehend the possibility that some of the hijackers may have been American looking and acting, perhaps dressed in suits and ties like a businessman, who boarded the flight under their real names. Perhaps of the five Arabs on the manifest for AAL77, only one or two of them were who they said they were-- and were thus patsies who boarded the flights unwittingly and had nothing to do with the hijackings.

A-Train, if look up the definition of comprehension, just one section reads as follows; It involves the ability to make sense of the material.

This would indicate the ability to understand and accept the truth. Where are you going to get the truth? How are you going to know it's the truth? When will you realize it's the truth? Are you going to use facts to arrive at the truth or are you going to continue with the assumption that the Government was the perpetrator on 9/11?

Do you really understand what cognitive dissonance means?

[DGM]

So the evidence doesn't matter, only that the FBI has decided you are an "extremist"?

And how does one decide who is an extremist? Was elite Israeli commando and AAL11 passenger Danny Lewin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_M._Lewin) an extremist? As far as I am concerned, he was/is.

Most of the 19 alleged Arab hijackers, on the other hand, were middle class professionals with no background of extremism of any kind.
You wanted a scenario I gave you one. What is your proof that this was not investigated. Just because of what one person said?

[JCM]

Were there any eyewitnesses on AA77 that stated there were five?

[AMTMAN]

And how does one decide who is an extremist? Was elite Israeli commando and AAL11 passenger Danny Lewin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_M._Lewin) an extremist? As far as I am concerned, he was/is.

.

Do you have anything to back that up or is this opinion based upon your own bigotry?

[CptColumbo]

What kind of forces would be working against a person trying to exit a plane (from any location) going at the speed AA77 was traveling at?

[AMTMAN]

What kind of forces would be working against a person trying to exit a plane (from any location) going at the speed AA77 was traveling at?

Well first of all the aircraft is pressurized which means unless you're Superman you are not going to open the door. Now you could depressurize. However the doors on the 757 open forward which means the airflow would prevent you from opening them. Unless of course you’re Superman. There are the overwing exit hatches that open inward. The problem with them is that the second you step out that airflow is going to grab you and more than likely slam your boby into the horizontal stabilizer. Like I said on another thread, bailing out of an airliner like the 757 is just a unique way to commit suicide.

[SpitfireIX]

A-Train, I'm going to re-pose a question that you've repeatedly ducked in the past, because the answer utterly destroys your ridiculous "Israeli commando hijackers" fantasy. How did they get out of the plane without the passengers and flight attendants' noticing the depressurization?? I specifically request that you answer.

[A-Train]

Well first of all the aircraft is pressurized which means unless you're Superman you are not going to open the door. Now you could depressurize. However the doors on the 757 open forward which means the airflow would prevent you from opening them. Unless of course you’re Superman. There are the overwing exit hatches that open inward. The problem with them is that the second you step out that airflow is going to grab you and more than likely slam your boby into the horizontal stabilizer. Like I said on another thread, bailing out of an airliner like the 757 is just a unique way to commit suicide.


It might be suicide for you, but as I've demonstrated on this forum before, bailing out of an airliner is a routine maneuver for Navy SEALS, and probably for other commando units around the world.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?z=y&pwb=1&ean=9781400060368#EXC

Jumping out of commercial airliners is an operation, or op, we call a "D. B. Cooper." Using scheduled air traffic to insert into a hostile country, or a denied area, is a SEAL specialty.

Most people do not parachute on purpose from jet aircraft. The planes are too fast, and the turbulent air dragging in their wake can snap your spine and pop your hips from your pelvis. We were trained to jump from commercial airliners because they are ubiquitous and nonattributable. It is one thing to prohibit American military aircraft from flying over your country. It is quite another to close down your airspace to all commercial traffic. Libya, Syria, Cuba, and a host of other thug nations allow commercial flights to fly through their airspace. This is all the opening a SEAL Team needs. Unknown and unseen, a SEAL element can parachute into any place on earth. One might insert: that is, provided one survives the jump. The trick is to exit in correct body position and deploy your parachute after the appropriate delay. There are two principal types of SEAL parachute operations: HALO, or high altitude, low opening; and HAHO, high altitude, high opening.

In a HALO drop, you exit the aircraft at 35,000 feet on oxygen and open your parachute low, at 2,000 feet, to avoid detection. A jumper falling at terminal velocity, roughly 120 miles an hour, would scream in for a full three minutes before opening his parachute.

In a HAHO drop, jumpers exit the aircraft above 35,000 feet, but their parachutes are deployed after a brief delay, maybe three seconds, opening high instead of low-sometimes literally in the jet stream. The team floats under canopy at 33,000 feet, then groups together and glides in formation toward the target.

From Warrior Soul: Memoir of a Navy SEAL by Chuck Pfarrar

[SpitfireIX]

It might be suicide for you, but as I've demonstrated on this forum before, bailing out of an airliner is a routine maneuver for Navy SEALS, and probably for other commando units around the world.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?z=y&pwb=1&ean=9781400060368#EXC


And, as has been pointed out to you ad nauseam, this is only possible from an aircraft with rear air stairs. Anyone jumping from a side exit would be extremely likely to strike some part of the aircraft, no matter how skilled or physically fit her or she was.

In any case you still haven't explained how the passengers and flight attendants didn't notice the depressurization.

ETA: and as has been noted, Pfarrar mentions that the aircraft in question has rear air stairs.

[PhantomWolf]

And how exactly did these commandos get onboard? The remains of all of the passangers except one were found in the Pentagon, and the one was a toddler, hardly able to walk, let alone go commando on the air crew and jump out the nose wheel.

[AMTMAN]

It might be suicide for you, but as I've demonstrated on this forum before, bailing out of an airliner is a routine maneuver for Navy SEALS, and probably for other commando units around the world.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?z=y&pwb=1&ean=9781400060368#EXC

I was HOPING you would bring this up. If I'm not mistaken the airliner used was either an DC-9 series aircraft or a 727. The aft airstairs on these type aircraft are located in the empenage of the aircraft. Anyone exiting from the aft airstairs would be shielded by the fuselage itself along with the stairs. I doubt that any of these jumps were out the overwing exit hatches on a 757

[MIKILLINI]

Wow A-Train, wow. I wonder if the "6th" hijacker was seen parachuting down anywhere.
Maybe he was a master of disguise and could change himself into a light pole. Maybe one of those lying on the roadway was him. You should view those photos more closely.

[SpitfireIX]

Wow A-Train, wow. I wonder if the "6th" hijacker was seen parachuting down anywhere.
Maybe he was a master of disguise and could change himself into a light pole. Maybe one of those lying on the roadway was him. You should view those photos more closely.

:dl:

[A-Train]

A-Train, I'm going to re-pose a question that you've repeatedly ducked in the past, because the answer utterly destroys your ridiculous "Israeli commando hijackers" fantasy. How did they get out of the plane without the passengers and flight attendants' noticing the depressurization?? I specifically request that you answer.

Well, I have to admit I'm no Navy SEAL, or even a flight engineer. I really don't think it's fair for you to demand that I explain every detail of such a potential operation. We know from the phone calls that all the passengers on all four flights were herded to the back of the planes. Would they have noticed if a hatch or door in the bottom of the front of the plane was opened in the last ten minutes or so of flight?

And here's another question. How much depressurization would be necessary if the plane was at ten grand... eight grand.... or two grand? Remember, the transponders on three of the four planes were turned off, so we don't know their altitudes when such a bailout would have occurred.

[A-Train]

I was HOPING you would bring this up. If I'm not mistaken the airliner used was either an DC-9 series aircraft or a 727. The aft airstairs on these type aircraft are located in the empenage of the aircraft. Anyone exiting from the aft airstairs would be shielded by the fuselage itself along with the stairs. I doubt that any of these jumps were out the overwing exit hatches on a 757

So your argument is that while jumps from 9s and 727s can be routine, they are somehow completely impossible from 767s and 757s?

Really?

That's the best you can do? That's the best you can come up with?

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So your argument is that while jumps from 9s and 727s can be routine, they are somehow completely impossible from 767s and 757s?

Really?

That's the best you can do? That's the best you can come up with?
Stop with the http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/758346f7fbda67cec.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8510)

Go back to the basics; prove there was a sixth person.


Oh, wait, I'm getting a vision:
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/758346ecaca14d69c.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=8352)
You won't be able to do so.

[Corsair 115]

So your argument is that while jumps from 9s and 727s can be routine, they are somehow completely impossible from 767s and 757s?

Really? I suggest you look at some line drawings of the layout of different types of aircraft. Note the location of the exits, wings, and engines. That may give you a clue as to why.

I'd like to ask a question: at what speed did these purported commandos exit the aircraft? 300 mph? 400 mph? Jumping out a side exit into a 400 mph wind blast does not sound like a endeavour that would be good for one's health.

[LashL]

...Two others were assigned to Wail and Waleed al-Shehrri--- who of course we all know turned up alive and well in the Middle East, and thus were not on the flight in the first place.


No, they did not "turn up alive and well in the Middle East", and no, it is not true that they "thus were not on the flight in the first place."


Nice try, though.

[A-Train]

Go back to the basics; prove there was a sixth person.


So now I have to prove there was a sixth hijacker? In my opening post I showed that the only eyewitness to the events on the plane stated there were six hijackers. Shouldn't you have to prove that there were only five?

Otherwise I will assume that the authorities simply counted up the number of Arab names on the manifests and decided they had hijacked the plane. And people like you have simply accepted that conclusion as unassailable fact.

[PhantomWolf]

So now I have to prove there was a sixth hijacker? In my opening post I showed that the only eyewitness to the events on the plane stated there were six hijackers. Shouldn't you have to prove that there were only five?

Otherwise I will assume that the authorities simply counted up the number of Arab names on the manifests and decided they had hijacked the plane. And people like you have simply accepted that conclusion as unassailable fact.

Since all the passangers but one were accounted for in the ruins of the Pentagon, who else could have done it? Unless you are going to claim it was some sort of Hollywood balony where the hijackers snuck onboard in midflight using a stealth bomber, then it crashed with exactly the same number of people it took off with.

[Tbone]

So your argument is that while jumps from 9s and 727s can be routine, they are somehow completely impossible from 767s and 757s?

At the speed these planes were travelling at, yes. Glad we could clear that up. You ever wonder why these SEALs you love to quote always jump out of the back of airplanes, and not the side (or below it, for that matter)?

[MIKILLINI]

So now I have to prove there was a sixth hijacker? In my opening post I showed that the only eyewitness to the events on the plane stated there were six hijackers. Shouldn't you have to prove that there were only five?

Otherwise I will assume that the authorities simply counted up the number of Arab names on the manifests and decided they had hijacked the plane. And people like you have simply accepted that conclusion as unassailable fact.

We have proof there were only five hijackers, in fact, My tax dollars help fund governmental agencies and one of them is the FBI. Now if they didn't investigate what happened on 9/11, I would have fired them. So, what turned out to be the largest investigation ever in their history, they concluded there were 5 hijackers.
That's PROOF. Now you try to DISPROVE it. That means you have PROOF that their PROOF is not PROOF.

[Mangoose]

And some of her other claims are a little bizarre, such as supposedly she herself saw a person's arm at the Pentagon a few days later?


Not too bizarre, John Judge elsewhere wrote:

"She was taken, with other attendants and ground crews who had worked that route into the crash site to view the wreckage. She clearly recognized parts of the plane she had ridden in hundreds of times and identified items. She was also shown autopsy photos and forensic evidence photos which included a severed arm. From the bracelet on the arm she knew it was the remains of her best friend at work."


http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/f77FoF.html (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/f77FoF.html)

Thank you for posting this video. I find it hard not to be moved by her very personal account. It all becomes very real when you hear it from someone who's been through the loss and experience herself. Here is a real person who was affected by these events, and she has firsthand knowledge from what she saw at the Pentagon. So it pisses me off to see Craig Ranke callously wrote:

Useless, pointless garbage info that proves nothing. Not a single bit of evidence. So the government gave her a bracelet. So what? There isn't proof that the bracelet or the DNA came from the Pentagon. To accept this is to accept the word of the suspect. Pathetic.


Right.

[SpitfireIX]

Well, I have to admit I'm no Navy SEAL, or even a flight engineer. I really don't think it's fair for you to demand that I explain every detail of such a potential operation.


Your extraordinary claim; your burden of proof. Further, I didn't ask you to explain "every detail." I asked you to explain the two details (how they got out of the plane without killing themselves, and how the passengers and flight attendants didn't notice the depressurization) that apparently violate the laws of physics.

We know from the phone calls that all the passengers on all four flights were herded to the back of the planes. Would they have noticed if a hatch or door in the bottom of the front of the plane was opened in the last ten minutes or so of flight?


Yes, if it had caused depressurization. Further, as has been pointed out to you, there is no avionics bay hatch on a 757, and "they" couldn't have reached the cargo doors, as the doors would have been blocked by baggage and freight pallets. Further, the videos and pictures of United 175 show that all hatches are closed. Finally, you still have the problem of striking the aircraft.

And here's another question. How much depressurization would be necessary if the plane was at ten grand... eight grand.... or two grand?


Normal cabin pressure is 8,000 ft MSL. Even at 10,000 feet the sudden pressure drop would have been noticeable.

Remember, the transponders on three of the four planes were turned off, so we don't know their altitudes when such a bailout would have occurred.
.
No, you remember, A-Train, there was still approximate altitude information available from primary radar for the other three flights--we know they were never below 10,000 ft.until just before they crashed.

However, that's beside the point, because your Israeli commando "theory" (and I use the term loosely) can be conclusively disproven simply from examining the accurate transponder data for United 175. Here is the NTSB's plot (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc03.pdf) of altitude vs. time for the aircraft. Notice that it didn't pass through 10,000 ft until about 1 minute before the crash. So tell me, A-Train, did the Israeli commandos get the hatch open and all bail out within one minute, over Lower Manhatten while the aircraft was in a very steep and fast descent?? Or is this whole thing just a ridiculous anti-Semitic wet dream of yours?

[A-Train]

Here is the NTSB's plot (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc03.pdf) of altitude vs. time for the aircraft. Notice that it didn't pass through 10,000 ft until about 1 minute before the crash.

Would that be the same NTSB that released an animation showing AAL77 flying off to one side of the Citgo station, then released FDR data indicating it flew over a different side of the same Citgo station?

[Jonnyclueless]

Wow, jumping out of planes now. How do people come up with this crap??

On an interesting note. There was a flight in England where the wrong sized screws were used to fasten a cockpit window in place. During a flight, the window popped out of the frame. The pressure from the cabin pushit it forward ahead of the plane, and eventually s got sucked back behind the plane. But the pressure change sucked not only the cockpit door into the cabin, but sucked the pilot out the window. The crew was holding onto the captain by his legs while the rest of him was outside the plane. The co-pilot took a dive through heavy traffic to get him down to a low altitude, but they still assumed he was dead because he was not moving and they doubted he could survive out there. They had to decide whether to let him go or keep holding on. The decision was made to hold on to him. Not because they wanted to save his life, but because it was determined him falling out of the side of the plane would damage the engines and cause more problems. The captain actually ended up living thanks to the co-pilot getting the plane low enough, but the point being that jumping out of the side of such a plane is suicide.

[CptColumbo]

Wow, jumping out of planes now. How do people come up with this crap??

On an interesting note. There was a flight in England where the wrong sized screws were used to fasten a cockpit window in place. During a flight, the window popped out of the frame. The pressure from the cabin pushit it forward ahead of the plane, and eventually s got sucked back behind the plane. But the pressure change sucked not only the cockpit door into the cabin, but sucked the pilot out the window. The crew was holding onto the captain by his legs while the rest of him was outside the plane. The co-pilot took a dive through heavy traffic to get him down to a low altitude, but they still assumed he was dead because he was not moving and they doubted he could survive out there. They had to decide whether to let him go or keep holding on. The decision was made to hold on to him. Not because they wanted to save his life, but because it was determined him falling out of the side of the plane would damage the engines and cause more problems. The captain actually ended up living thanks to the co-pilot getting the plane low enough, but the point being that jumping out of the side of such a plane is suicide.
Here's some more details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_5390

[Z]

OK, A-Train, this is the part where you admit you were mistaken, apologize, and move on.

[Firestone]

Remember Betty Ong's report of the seat numbers of the hijackers on AAL11. Two of them were assigned to "American" businessmen. Two others were assigned to Wail and Waleed al-Shehrri--- who of course we all know turned up alive and well in the Middle East, and thus were not on the flight in the first place.The story that Betty Ong gave seat numbers of the hijackers not corresponding to the Al Qaeda members is based on one uncorroborated story in the Boston Globe.

Actually, the full transcript of her phone call shows that she did give the correct seat numbers.

Ong also named Daniel Lewin as the murdered passenger, so your claim that Lewin was a hijacker is a stupid and outrageous lie.

Details in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2369639&postcount=17).

[The Doc]

Well, I have to admit I'm no Navy SEAL, or even a flight engineer. I really don't think it's fair for you to demand that I explain every detail of such a potential operation.

Dude, you made the claim. It's your job to prove it whether you think it's fair or not.

[chillzero]

I think it would be reasonable to think that a person in such a stressful situation could either mis-count, or perhaps count an innocent person amongst the hijackers if she considered another passenger to be acting suspiciously. We can never know how people reacted and what they tried to do that day.

[Dave Rogers]

I think we're all missing something important here. There were clearly six hijackers. How many points are there on a Star of David? I think you can see where I'm going here. Six hijackers proves that the Jews did 9-11. Case closed.

Am I learning to think like you yet, A-train?

Dave

[funk de fino]

That he continues to make these ludicrous claims despite being told and shown by aircraft technicians/engineers and pilots that it is impossible, leads me to conclude that this is one truther firmly in the Liar category

[T.A.M.]

I think it would be reasonable to think that a person in such a stressful situation could either mis-count, or perhaps count an innocent person amongst the hijackers if she considered another passenger to be acting suspiciously. We can never know how people reacted and what they tried to do that day.

A whisper of sanity in a shout of truther crap...thank you Chill

TAM:)

[apathoid]

(......757 bail out rubbish...........)




Haven't we been over this before? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2858221#post2858221)


Yes, if it had caused depressurization. Further, as has been pointed out to you, there is no avionics bay hatch on a 757, and "they" couldn't have reached the cargo doors, as the doors would have been blocked by baggage and freight pallets.Further, the videos and pictures of United 175 show that all hatches are closed. Finally, you still have the problem of striking the aircraft.


And even if they did somehow get into the cargo bay from the cabin(actually a snap on a 767), short of "hot-wiring" the door control wiring, you can't open the cargo door from the inside(757&767).

So lets review 757 exit possibilities. A-Train, feel free to chime in whenever...

Entry doors(6):cannot be opened in-flight, regardless of pressurization.

Overwing emergency exits(4): cannot be open while pressurized. Passengers may notice egress. Egress very probably deadly at any speed, let alone 500 mph.

Avionics equipment hatch(1): not accessible from the cabin, unless floorboards are removed. Cannot be open while pressurized.

Fwd accessory hatch(1): not accessible from the cabin. period.

Cargo doors(2):not accessible from the cabin, unless floorboards are removed. No access to door control from inside the aircraft.

Jackscrew compartment, landing gear doors: not accessible from the cabin. period.

Sliding cockpit windows(2): Cannot be open when pressurized, wing will be a problem upon egress.


Am I missing any AMTMAN? Good thing there were no MD-11s, 727s, DC-9s, or MD-80s involved on 9/11. A-Train would be in heaven.

[apathoid]

However the doors on the 757 open forward which means the airflow would prevent you from opening them. Unless of course you’re Superman.


Hell, you have to damn near be Superman to get them open with absolutely no wind or slipstream. I honestly don't know how the FAs get the open and closed sometimes. :D

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

So now I have to prove there was a sixth hijacker? In my opening post I showed that the only eyewitness to the events on the plane stated there were six hijackers. Shouldn't you have to prove that there were only five?Go re-read (just read?) post #16 and you'll have your answer.

EPIC FAIL
http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_7583461af84bb7687.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=5085)


Otherwise I will assume that the authorities simply counted up the number of Arab names on the manifests and decided they had hijacked the plane. And people like you have simply accepted that conclusion as unassailable fact.
And you know what they say about "assuming", it makes you look like a *********** moron.

[SpitfireIX]

Would that be the same NTSB that released an animation showing AAL77 flying off to one side of the Citgo station, then released FDR data indicating it flew over a different side of the same Citgo station?


You can't refute this damning evidence, so you're reduced to spreading FUD about it. The animation to which you refer was preliminary, and contained an orientation error. In any case, by your logic, any evidence provided by any government agency can automatically be ignored, because we can always find some report or study published by that agency at some time that contains at least one obvious error.

Further, we have the FDR data from United 93 and American 77, so we don't need any radar data to know their altitude profiles.

Finally, here is the NTSB study (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf) of the primary radar data from American 11. Using statistical methods to plot a trend lline for the data as the NTSB did, we can get a reasonably accurate picture of the actual altitude profile. Even if we were to take the worst of the outliers as being accurate, however, the aircraft was still never below 10,0000 ft MSL until just a few minutes before it crashed.

So, A-Train, we have three NTSB studies of the three aircraft that hit their targets. Each study is derived from a different data source (Mode C transponder data, primary radar data, and FDR data), and each shows that none of the aircraft descended below 10,000 ft MSL until just a few minutes before impact. So please explain how likely it is that all three of these studies would contain egregious errors that happen to be highly inconvenient to your Israeli commando theory.

[Par]

Well, if A-Train ever manages to show that his anti-Semitic fantasy is possible, then we can look forward to him presenting some evidence in its favour.

[sackett]

I feel like that kitten: "WHAT in the name of GOD is going ON!"

No I don't. Trutheroid beliefs are like cheap cigars: fifty for a nickel and none of them worth a damn.

[AMTMAN]

So your argument is that while jumps from 9s and 727s can be routine, they are somehow completely impossible from 767s and 757s?

Really?

That's the best you can do? That's the best you can come up with?

You really are picking a fight with the wrong guy. I have almost ten years working on commercial aircraft, fourteen if you count military time. What do you have? The fact that you buy into these paranoid little fantasies tells me you don't have much.

What you are guilty of is cheery picking of information. You are either jumping on this sort of stuff without doing your homework. Or you do your homework and you purposely leave important information out. If it's the former it means you are lazy. If it's the latter it means you are deceitful.

You read a story about Navy SEALS jumping out of commercial airliners and you try and use it as proof that the hijackers bailed out. Conveniently ignoring the fact that these jumps were made out of aircraft with aft air stairs which shielded them from the worst of the slip stream. You also ignore the fact that when they do HALO/HAHO jumps out of military aircraft they use aft cargo ramp from which to jump.

Nothing is impossible; you can try about anything once. Trying to jump from a 757 overwing door is one of those things you try ONCE. Why do you think DB Copper choose the route of exit he did? Or those Navy SEALS for that matter.

[AMTMAN]

Haven't we been over this before? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2858221#post2858221)




Am I missing any AMTMAN? Good thing there were no MD-11s, 727s, DC-9s, or MD-80s involved on 9/11. A-Train would be in heaven.


You forgot the nosegear door. ;)

[AMTMAN]

Hell, you have to damn near be Superman to get them open with absolutely no wind or slipstream. I honestly don't know how the FAs get the open and closed sometimes. :D

Tell me about it! It always amazes me when some petite FA or gate agent opens a door on a 757. What's really fun is when the cabin cleaners on night try and close the L1 door and get it out of sequence. Then you get to move the stairs over to the L2 door to open it back up. Murphy's Law dictates that this usually happens when it's raining out.

[A W Smith]

So the evidence doesn't matter, only that the FBI has decided you are an "extremist"?

And how does one decide who is an extremist? Was elite Israeli commando and AAL11 passenger Danny Lewin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_M._Lewin) an extremist? As far as I am concerned, he was/is.

Most of the 19 alleged Arab hijackers, on the other hand, were middle class professionals with no background of extremism of any kind.


OK A-Train heres a little game you can play to pass the time. I want you to pick through this DNA chart and point out to us which sample is the (your)suspected sixth hijacker. and get back to us with your conclusion. keep in mind that all this DNA evidence has been accounted for.

http://www.correctedbyreality.com/research/wtc/pentagonscene.exe

[AMTMAN]

Not too bizarre, John Judge elsewhere wrote:

"She was taken, with other attendants and ground crews who had worked that route into the crash site to view the wreckage. She clearly recognized parts of the plane she had ridden in hundreds of times and identified items. She was also shown autopsy photos and forensic evidence photos which included a severed arm. From the bracelet on the arm she knew it was the remains of her best friend at work."


http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/f77FoF.html (http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/f77FoF.html)

Thank you for posting this video. I find it hard not to be moved by her very personal account. It all becomes very real when you hear it from someone who's been through the loss and experience herself. Here is a real person who was affected by these events, and she has firsthand knowledge from what she saw at the Pentagon. So it pisses me off to see Craig Ranke callously wrote:




Right.

John Judge really isn't much of a researcher if you ask me. He also talked aoubt fighters based at Anacosta Naval Air Station. The only problem is that there's no runway at Anacostia Naval Station capable of handling fighters.

< http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/UQPC061002.html >

As for Craig Ranke he's nothing more than a fraud looking to sell DVD's.

[SpitfireIX]

You can't refute this damning evidence, so you're reduced to spreading FUD about it. The animation to which you refer was preliminary, and contained an orientation error. In any case, by your logic, any evidence provided by any government agency can automatically be ignored, because we can always find some report or study published by that agency at some time that contains at least one obvious error.

Further, we have the FDR data from United 93 and American 77, so we don't need any radar data to know their altitude profiles.

Finally, here is the NTSB study (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf) of the primary radar data from American 11. Using statistical methods to plot a trend lline for the data as the NTSB did, we can get a reasonably accurate picture of the actual altitude profile. Even if we were to take the worst of the outliers as being accurate, however, the aircraft was still never below 10,0000 ft MSL until just a few minutes before it crashed.

So, A-Train, we have three NTSB studies of the three aircraft that hit their targets. Each study is derived from a different data source (Mode C transponder data, primary radar data, and FDR data), and each shows that none of the aircraft descended below 10,000 ft MSL until just a few minutes before impact. So please explain how likely it is that all three of these studies would contain egregious errors that happen to be highly inconvenient to your Israeli commando theory.


A-Train, you haven't explained the above, yet you've posted elsewhere. Kindly respond.

[A-Train]

A-Train, you haven't explained the above, yet you've posted elsewhere. Kindly respond.

So, A-Train, we have three NTSB studies of the three aircraft that hit their targets. Each study is derived from a different data source (Mode C transponder data, primary radar data, and FDR data), and each shows that none of the aircraft descended below 10,000 ft MSL until just a few minutes before impact. So please explain how likely it is that all three of these studies would contain egregious errors that happen to be highly inconvenient to your Israeli commando theory.I can reply along two veins. First, if you read the excerpt from Chuck Pfarrar's book that I've posted here several times, he states that HAHO and HALO jumps can be made from above 30,000 feet. Your argument was that the passengers would have "noticed" the depressurization at such a high altitude. I only suggested that they could have jumped from a lower altitude requiring less depressurization.

Secondly, I'd like to know how the NTSB did an altitude study using Mode C data, primary radar data, and FDR data from the flights.

We know the only plane with Mode C data was UAL175, which left its transponder on throughout. The radar data would have been saved by the ATC Center handling the plane. Why has it not been released to the public?

As for primary radar data, I'd love for someone to explain to me how you can get any altitude information out of that.

As for the FDRs, we know the two black boxes from the WTC crashes mysteriously vaporized into non-existence. As for data from the other two flights, I question the chain of custody of that evidence-- especially after the cockamamie farce that came out of the CVR from UAL93.

Sorry, but the government's evidence is suspect to me. I don't automatically accept it without corroboration, as you apparently do. As far as I'm concerned, the altitudes of the planes throughout their flights remains an open question.

[Jonnyclueless]

And you're still ignoring the fact that there was no rear door on any of the planes from which to jump, leaving only the option to jump into the engines and die a lovely death.

Oh that, and the fact that you are simply making it up and have absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that someone jumped out of the plane. Of course ignoring how absurd the claim even is to begin with.

[Jonnyclueless]

Oh and yeah two black boxes "mysteriously" vaporized. I wonder if those two 110 story buildings crashing down and burning for 3 months straight would have anything to do with that? Must be a mystery! BTW, I suggest A-train, that you check the specs for black boxes to see what they are capable of surviving.

[AMTMAN]

I can reply along two veins. First, if you read the excerpt from Chuck Pfarrar's book that I've posted here several times, he states that HAHO and HALO jumps can be made from above 30,000 feet. Your argument was that the passengers would have "noticed" the depressurization at such a high altitude. I only suggested that they could have jumped from a lower altitude requiring less depressurization.


We keep pointing out the huge holes in this paranoid little fantasy of yours yet you seem not to be able to let go. Why is that? Reading that twisted little holocaust denial festival over on another thread I have a feeling I know why.

[AMTMAN]

Secondly, I'd like to know how the NTSB did an altitude study using Mode C data, primary radar data, and FDR data from the flights.



Considering your lack of knowledge in this subject area you wouldn't know what they were talking aobut anyway.

[AMTMAN]

I
As for the FDRs, we know the two black boxes from the WTC crashes mysteriously vaporized into non-existence. As for data from the other two flights, I question the chain of custody of that evidence-- especially after the cockamamie farce that came out of the CVR from UAL93.
.


This is another case where you display your lack of knowledge. A lot of people seem to think that FDR/CVR are indestructible, they are not. You have two aircraft slam into the WTC. One traveling at a high rate of speed. They are subjected to incredible forces in the initial impact, subsequent fire and eventual collapse of the WTC. When the WTC collapsed those recorders were buried under tons of debris. You drop a one ton piece of concrete or steel onto a FDR/CVR it will not survive.

Then there's the issue of even finding it. It would have been the proverbial finding a needle in a haystack. Now lets say for the sake of argument you did find them and there was recoverable data. What exactly do you think they would have learned?

[firecoins]

Israeli commando supermen working for Bush were responsible for the attacks on 9/11/01. Just amazing!. And they did this without evidence. Its blows my mind man! This is just as well backed as space beams, invisible bombs and Norman Minetta's timeline.

[AMTMAN]

Israeli commando supermen working for Bush were responsible for the attacks on 9/11/01. Just amazing!. And they did this without evidence. Its blows my mind man! This is just as well backed as space beams, invisible bombs and Norman Minetta's timeline.

Don't you mean JJJJJOOOOOSSSSS!!!!!!!!

[A-Train]

Oh and yeah two black boxes "mysteriously" vaporized. I wonder if those two 110 story buildings crashing down and burning for 3 months straight would have anything to do with that? Must be a mystery! BTW, I suggest A-train, that you check the specs for black boxes to see what they are capable of surviving.

They should have all survived the crashes.

Events that would damage the recorders sufficiently to make them unreadable are extremely rare. NTSB spokesperson Ted Lopatkiewicz said that he couldn't recall a domestic case before 9/11/01 in which the recorders were not recovered. 7 (http://www.911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html#ref7) The recorders are designed to survive the kinds of impacts that happened at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
The FAA has placed durability requirements on the recorders and their casings to survive severe impact and fire

The storage medium of each recorder is located in a protective capsule, which must be able to withstand an impact of 3,400 Gs (3,400 times the force of gravity). Additionally, each must also survive flames at 2,000 F for up to 30 minutes, and submersion in 20,000 feet of saltwater for 30 days. Typically, to increase their chances of survival, the recorders are located in the tail section of the aircraft, which usually sustains the least impact in a crash. 8 (http://www.911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html#ref8)

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/blackboxes.html
They are encased in very strong materials, like titanium, and insulated so as to withstand a crash impact. Wells Morrison, the FBI’s second in command at the Flight 93 crash scene, later comments, “It was strange. The black boxes are right next to each other on the aircraft [UAL93], but one was found thirteen feet deeper into the crater than the other.… We were surprised, quite honestly, that we didn’t find them sooner.”
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0972103163/centerforcoop-20

[Good Lt]

Additionally, each must also survive flames at 2,000 F for up to 30 minutes, and submersion in 20,000 feet of saltwater for 30 days. Typically, to increase their chances of survival, the recorders are located in the tail section of the aircraft, which usually sustains the least impact in a crash.

So this describes what happened at WTC? Fires, building collapses and piles of smoldering rubble covering the boxes for weeks?

It DOESN'T??

They are encased in very strong materials, like titanium, and insulated so as to withstand a crash impact. Wells Morrison, the FBI’s second in command at the Flight 93 crash scene, later comments, “It was strange. The black boxes are right next to each other on the aircraft [UAL93], but one was found thirteen feet deeper into the crater than the other.… We were surprised, quite honestly, that we didn’t find them sooner.”

(X-files theme)

This proves nothing.

[AMTMAN]

They should have all survived the crashes.

Once again you put on your blinders because you can't let go of your paranoid little fantasy. As I have already pointed out FDR/CVR's are not indestructible. Also as I have already pointed out even if they had somehow survived finding them among thousands of tons of debris would have been quite a task. And I'm wondering what you think would have been found on them that would be so earth shattering.

[A W Smith]

They should have all survived the crashes.

Your homework assignment


take two data recorder boxes
put one inside a concrete recycling mill (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_recycling)
put another on top of an 83 story building
put a 27 story building on top of that
initiate collapse of buildings
start concrete recycling crushing machine
compare consistency of concrete output between crushing machine and building collapse
note that the crushing machine concrete has been reduced to 1 1/2 inch gravel
note that the building collapse concrete is crushed to powder
attempt to retrieve remains of data recorders from both experiments.
get back to us with the results. if anyA reminder. Your previous homework assignment (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3157390&postcount=62)is overdue, You will be getting an incomplete.

[Jonnyclueless]

"each must also survive flames at 2,000 F for up to 30 minutes"

And yet don't the Wooers point out how the debris was still burning 3 months later? I think that might count as a wee bit longer than 30 minutes.

[MIKILLINI]

Sorry, but the government's evidence is suspect to me. I don't automatically accept it without corroboration, as you apparently do. As far as I'm concerned, the altitudes of the planes throughout their flights remains an open question.

It's only in question to you and a scant few others, A-Train. As long as you are believing commandos jumped out of the airliner, you may as well try to figure out where the 6th light pole is here.
They claim 5, the same number of hijackers on flight 77, but some people believe there 6 light poles. Perhaps this was the 6th hijacker in disguise.

http://www.loosechangeguide.com/images/image036.jpg

Pretty clever, to not only disguise himself as a light pole, but do it in the form of a cross. Very, very clever.

[Reheat]

He, he, he! Gotcha!