have they found anything?

[edteach]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.

[Puppycow]

All expenditures of money are expenditures that could be used elsewhere. I think this is a pretty good one.

[Jimcalagon]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.

I'm trying to think of a polite reply to this without including the words "drop" and "ocean". I'll get back to you.

[Rob Lister]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.

SETI receives no government support. It is entirely privately funded. If you don't like it, don't donate.

[edteach]

its a waist of time and I wont donate

[ravdin]

its a waist of time and I wont donate

Your contribution will be sorely missed.

[Fnord]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.


This thread is a waste of bandwidth that could be used elsewhere. Like in an on-line course that teaches correct spelling, proper grammar, and appropriate punctuation.

It's a waste of time and I won't reply.

;)

[NorfolkAtheist]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.

You're going to look pretty foolish when we finally do make contact and the aliens end up telling us the secret to running our "autos with out oil."

[JAStewart]

I think that SETI is a decent idea, but I just don't think I actually know what it is doing. I dunno if its a waste of money or not, if it was the only thing searching for aliens then maybe it would be worth it but otherwise I dunno.

[tofu]

the aliens end up telling us the secret to running our "autos with out oil."

"Simple," they'll say, "just use the sap of the common elibo tree which grows in most pod-stalk forests."

"uh, we don't have those" we'll say.

(75 years later)

"LOL! you guys are screwed then!" they'll say.

[JAStewart]

Wouldn't contact with Aliens be somewhat futile, based on the fact that the difference in time between us and the other life be so vast? (like, based on the time it would take for the signal to travel?)

[tofu]

"contact" in this context, mostly means just knowing that someone else is out there. Back and forth communication isn't going to happen. I think there are three different categories of signals that we might find:

1. those that are incidental to the operation of a civilization - basically, radars and such. These are easy to find because of their power, but give us no information at all.

2. messages that they send to themselves - like their version of TV. This sounds like it'd be great, but in reality, we would have almost no hope of understanding them, or putting them into any kind of context. I'd love to be proven wrong though. Note that it's also quite likely that an advanced society compresses or encrypts all of its communications, and by definition those would be indistinguishable from random noise (though still possibly detectable). A really advanced civilization might even communicate between colonies or ship-to-colony via optical wavelengths, which would be so highly directional that we have little chance of seeing them. I think this category of signal is the least likely for us to find.

3. a message that an advanced civilization sends out specifically to alert the rest of the galaxy that it exists - as in the movie Contact. This would be the holy grail for SETI, because this kind of message would be designed to be decoded, and designed to be interesting.

At any rate, none of those situations involves communication with the aliens. Sure, if we find one, we'd start sending transmissions back. But then, in hundreds of years, when our signal gets to them, they would have to get lucky to hear us.

The most important thing about SETI would be knowing we're not alone - and that is certainly important enough to justify the effort.

[Radrook]

Wouldn't contact with Aliens be somewhat futile, based on the fact that the difference in time between us and the other life be so vast? (like, based on the time it would take for the signal to travel?)

In the film CONTACT the aliens provided a means to get around the signal time delay problem.

[JAStewart]

Ah right. Well I watched Contact, the movie, and thought that it was pretty boring. This was like, 8 years ago or something though.

[rwguinn]

These folks who say it's a waste of time and mone make me think of a fellow I went Elk hunting with, once.
After 2 hours of climbing and bushwaking, we got to a saddle about a half hour before dawn. He looked around, procalimed "There's no elk here - let's go!"
I let him, and less than an hour later was filling my Deer tag at that location.
(Since I had to muscle it down the hill by myself, I didn't share, either!)
Never went hunting with that guy again, nor did anybody else in the party..

[T'ai Chi]

What are SETI's accomplishments so far? What are their 'deliverables'? Do we know more about 'ET' now than when they started?

[CFLarsen]

What are SETI's accomplishments so far? What are their 'deliverables'? Do we know more about 'ET' now than when they started?

Have you asked them?

[T'ai Chi]

These folks who say it's a waste of time and mone make me think of a fellow I went Elk hunting with, once.
After 2 hours of climbing and bushwaking, we got to a saddle about a half hour before dawn. He looked around, procalimed "There's no elk here - let's go!"
I let him, and less than an hour later was filling my Deer tag at that location.
(Since I had to muscle it down the hill by myself, I didn't share, either!)
Never went hunting with that guy again, nor did anybody else in the party..

Yikes. I hope the ETs don't read this and think that we're going to hunt them down.

I see what you're saying, but

a) we know elk exist, it isn't an extraordinary claim
b) elk hunting doesn't cost millions of dollars
c) one can use your analogy to argue that we should continue believing in gods, and just about every other topic

[CFLarsen]

Yikes. I hope the ETs don't read this and think that we're going to hunt them down.

I see what you're saying, but

a) we know elk exist, it isn't an extraordinary claim
b) elk hunting doesn't cost millions of dollars
c) one can use your analogy to argue that we should continue believing in gods, and just about every other topic

What you are suggesting is that we stop funding science.

[rwguinn]

Yikes. I hope the ETs don't read this and think that we're going to hunt them down.

I see what you're saying, but

a) we know elk exist, it isn't an extraordinary claim
b) elk hunting doesn't cost millions of dollars
c) one can use your analogy to argue that we should continue believing in gods, and just about every other topic

Might I suggest that you use the space between the ears for something other than a hatrack?
1.It's a BIG da*n universe. The odds are that something exists out there. Just because we know elk exist does not mean that we can find them at first glance.
2. You've never gone hunting, have you:D. A hunt is a substantially larger piece of my budget than SETI is of the Federal budget (Especially since it is mostly private funding)
3. No--it means we should never stop searching for answers. Patience is required
And you missed the more impartant part of my analogy--I filled a DEER tag. Sometimes the answers we get are not the ones we sought--but are useful in their own way. It is called "serendipity"

[T'ai Chi]

Might I suggest that you use the space between the ears for something other than a hatrack?


Certainly. And I'd consider your suggestion with the same attentiveness that I consider all other heckles by random pseudoskeptics. Fair?


1.It's a BIG da*n universe. The odds are that something exists out there.


Then anything you want to exist can exist if you're claiming that. It is the typical

big universe --> high probability of anything existing


3. No--it means we should never stop searching for answers.


Well I agree with that; I'm all for research. But you gotta wonder when to stop as a foolish way to spend valuable resources when it looks like no answers are coming in.

[fuelair]

its a waist of time and I wont donate
With, truly, no reference to your topic - only to your forum name - I do so hope you are not actually involved in education in any way!!!:)




Hadn't seen TC was here - but should have expected it. Same message - just different reason.

[rwguinn]

Certainly. And I'd consider your suggestion with the same attentiveness that I consider all other heckles by random pseudoskeptics. Fair?



Then anything you want to exist can exist if you're claiming that. It is the typical

big universe --> high probability of anything existing



Well I agree with that; I'm all for research. But you gotta wonder when to stop as a foolish way to spend valuable resources when it looks like no answers are coming in.
So, who gets to decide if a line of research is "valuable"?
You?

Just to let you know--research ALWAYS pays back much, much more than its cost.
If your type had been in charge of the space program (a useless endevor, certainly) we'd all have 5 channels on our vacuum tube TV's (no satellites!), big black rotary phones in every house, and the internet would only be a Science Fiction background.
No video games, no Ipods, and many more people dying from heart attaqcks and cancer--not to mention the crippling effects of joint injuries--no cat scans, no joint replacements,

[Olowkow]

I have come to the conclusion that some people just do not put a high value on the rational or on reality. This is similar in nature to the low esteem I have for the supernatural. However, the former seem to feel insult when this is pointed out to them, while I feel pride when I am deemed a realist.

What is real here is the need for man to explore, to invent, to think. This is why SETI exists. Curiosity and wonder are built into our species and it is part of the reason we still exist as a life form. Of course, watching I Love Lucy reruns may be less of a "waist of time" for the OP.

I suspect that the OP would marvel at the stupidity of owning or admiring expensive art, or at the inanity of musical talent. But this is what makes us human. The equipment they have is some of the most exquisite stuff in the art of electronics. You can even get PC software which doubles as a screen saver that helps with the computer time searching for a signal.

I think it is quite cool. As for the budget, it is on the wane unfortunately:

http://openseti.org/Budget.html

[Soapy Sam]

In all honesty, if SETI announced a definite, repeatable hit tomorrow, I can't imagine being more than mildly surprised. I doubt it would fundamentally affect my life, or anyone else's. A number of books would be written, some by woos claiming previous contact, some by scientists discussing probabilities.
If the signal contained usable information ("Contact" style), that would be something else, but most probably it would be the equivalent of "Reality TV", only with more legs.

[MilwaukeeMike]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.

I agree, at least with moving the money to other areas of research. I still think there could be life out there, but come on, do we really think we are going to find them by searching for radio signals. I saw a show on this and humans on a galactic level would be considered slugs compared to the possible life out there. Are we to assume life that could be millions of years more advance than us still using radio as communication? They could be using something we cannot even fathom. I think a more plausible idea is there is life out there and it is on a micro biotic level.

[bigred]

So, who gets to decide if a line of research is "valuable"?
You?I think he's expressing his viewpoint, as are you and all of us on this thread - in fact I think that's the point of this site, for the most part.

Just to let you know--research ALWAYS pays back much, much more than its cost.I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this.


If your type had been in charge of the space program :rolleyes: "his type?" So since he questions SETI's usefulness, surely he would've questioned the entire space program's usefulness? What evidence do you have for this? Has he done so in the past?

Also, the space program from the start pretty much produced immediate, tangible benefits. What has SETI done in that regard?


No video games, no Ipods, You say that like it's a bad thing.





What is real here is the need for man to explore, to invent, to think.
...all which can be (and for almost all of man's existance, has been) done w/o SETI's existance.

Curiosity and wonder are built into our species and it is part of the reason we still exist as a life form. No argument there...

I suspect that the OP would marvel at the stupidity of owning or admiring expensive art, or at the inanity of musical talent. :rolleyes: More lame and unjustified cheap shots.

And in fact I have marvelled at the stupidity of owning or admiring expensive art - when it was owned or admired because of its price, something which has nothing to do with how good a given piece of art is. Pretentiousness in art (esp paintings and such) is all the rage.

You can even get PC software which doubles as a screen saver that helps with the computer time searching for a signal. Is that still around? Yeah I thought that was pretty cool too.

PS and FYI, I'm all for SETI. I just think it's pointless and does nothing for a "pro SETI" viewpoint to rip on someone because they dared to question it.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why is it people want to talk in ignorance?

The Planetary Society is the prime sponsor of SETI research http://planetary.org/special/seti .

It is fully self-funded by its supporters and volunteers. They make the decision about what they will do. It's not your money they spend. It's not the government's money they spend.

When freeking sports players get millions of dollars a year, what the PS spends is insignificant.

When the UK was cancelling its space program ISTR a comment that they could actually have funded a very good one if they spent the equivalent of what was been spent in the country on advertising laundry detergents.

Priorities anyone?

:mad::mad:

[The Gnomon]

The Planetary Society is the prime sponsor of SETI research http://planetary.org/special/seti .

It is fully self-funded by its supporters and volunteers. They make the decision about what they will do. It's not your money they spend. It's not the government's money they spend.



Just think - If they redirected their billions to global warming and world peace, they could make the world a utopia! :boggled:

Certainly the world would be a better place if we could each tell everyone else what to do with his/her money and time. Somewhere in the multiverse, we would all be gods.

In this particular instantiation of the multiverse, however, we are, with some limitations, free to devote time and money to whatever we wish, no matter how worthwhile. The advantage of this is that we dissipate our energies in a variety of directions rather than have a powerful authority focus our energy on a few worthless projects (e.g. wars). The disadvantage is that we run the chance of opening new avenues of interest, inquiry and understanding, thus undermining the authority of the rulers. :eek:

BTW - I demand you give up your hobbies, as they do not please me.

[tumnus]

Then anything you want to exist can exist if you're claiming that. It is the typical

big universe --> high probability of anything existing

Well I agree with that; I'm all for research. But you gotta wonder when to stop as a foolish way to spend valuable resources when it looks like no answers are coming in.

Indeed, big universe. Chances of anything near us is probably quite remote. But it cant hurt to try and take a look, rather than sit on our bottoms. That's one of the good qualities of humans, that they think of ways of finding out about stuff. How long has it been going on for now? twenty, thirty years? That's not very long, (unless you think the earth is 6000 years old or so) and there's a lot to look at.

They're funding themselves, its a drop in the ocean in terms of resources (I like when the fellow compared it to the amount sports stars earn!), so what's the big deal. An they're curious, because they don't know one way or the other, and would like to at least try and find out.

Of course, some people have all the answers already, so they can keep sitting on their bottoms.

[JHA]

This is another expen. of money that could be used else where. like looking for alturnitive sources of energy, ways to run our autos with out oil.

There is a way; it's called "pushing". :D

Why do you think so many cars have heated rear windows?

Looking for ET hasn't been exactly futile; it got the distributed computing idea off the ground and now there are dozens of very worthy projects in which one could participate. I particularly like the one that analyses climate data; that could lead to better decision-making by our glorious leaders and the avoidance of (very) expensive mistakes.

There are also several involving medical research ... hope y'all get cracking soon on one or the other of these.

[Richard Masters]

All expenditures of money are expenditures that could be used elsewhere. I think this is a pretty good one.

I personally like SETI, but I understand why others wouldn't want to pay for projects like it and NASA

[Ottis]

In all honesty, if SETI announced a definite, repeatable hit tomorrow, I can't imagine being more than mildly surprised. I doubt it would fundamentally affect my life, or anyone else's.......

The definite existence of ETL would answer one of the basic questions that I've had since childhood. I believe it would make a HUGE difference in many peoples outlook on life and our place in the universe.
I'm not saying anything against Soapy Sam, I just don't understand his mindset..

[Radrook]

It wouldn't affect my concept of my place in the universe at all.

[godless dave]

I agree, at least with moving the money to other areas of research. I still think there could be life out there, but come on, do we really think we are going to find them by searching for radio signals. I saw a show on this and humans on a galactic level would be considered slugs compared to the possible life out there. Are we to assume life that could be millions of years more advance than us still using radio as communication?

Why do you assume they would be millions of years more advanced than we? Even if they are, they weren't always that advanced. At some point in their development, they may have used radio. Those signals would still be traveling through space.

[Radrook]

They might all be living in tents and wearing loin cloths.

[amb]

The late Carl Sagan had an input in SETI. For that reason alone, in memory of the man it should be continued.
If restrictions were placed on Christopher Columbus, perhaps America would not have been colonised.

[El Greco]

The definite existence of ETL would answer one of the basic questions that I've had since childhood.

What was that question ? Whether there are aliens out there ? I've decided a long time ago to believe that statistically there must be. And that also we won't be making any kind of contact in my lifetime.

I believe it would make a HUGE difference in many peoples outlook on life and our place in the universe.

I don't think so. Maybe for a little while, but as soon as people realize we can't pick up a phone and talk to them, everything will slowly return back to normal.

Unfortunately I don't even know whether man will ever make contact with an alien civilization or we'll disappear from the universe without ever having that chance.

[TeslaPRG]

When we look at the tiny amount of money being spent on SETI compared to what we spend on our own self destruction SETI is actually insanely under funded even with our private donations. I believe that any discovery in this area would definitely be the most profound discovery since the theory of evolution in helping mankind understand itself. Critics of SETI I have discovered also criticize other research science. Science should not have to be focused on helping enterprise exclusively, it's o.k. for us to learn for the sake of knowledge.

paul

[Radrook]

The late Carl Sagan had an input in SETI. For that reason alone, in memory of the man it should be continued.
If restrictions were placed on Christopher Columbus, perhaps America would not have been colonised.

I thought America had been already colonised by the Indians when Christopher showed up.

[Unalienable]

http://www.zenfilm.org/productionhouse/Horton.jpg

We are here!
We are here!
We are here!
We are here!

[amb]

I thought America had been already colonised by the Indians when Christopher showed up.
Perhaps I should have added; colonised by a superior civilization. A more advanced one. That's evolution, survival of the strongest or fittest. That's the way it works
Same thing here in Australia. When Captain Cook landed here, the Aboriginals were still living as they did 40 thousand years ago. And would still be doing so today.

[CFLarsen]

That's evolution, survival of the strongest or fittest. That's the way it works

Not "strongest". Just "fittest".

[amb]

This is what theist find too hard to accept. The cold, cruel, fact of evolution by natural selection. Survival of the fittest. 99% of all earth life has in the 3-4 billion years of it's existence become extinct. Extinction is the norm, not the exception.

[godless dave]

I thought America had been already colonised by the Indians when Christopher showed up.

Settled but not colonized. There was nobobdy living here when the first wave of American Indians showed up.

[Radrook]

Settled but not colonized. There was nobobdy living here when the first wave of American Indians showed up.


Finally someone caught the fine distinction between the twain.

[amb]

Nevertheless. more advanced societies conquer less advanced ones. Been like that since the year dot.[ Most of the time.] From time to time some societies revert back because of corruption. Look at Mugabe in ex-Rhodesia.

[Soapy Sam]

The definite existence of ETL would answer one of the basic questions that I've had since childhood. I believe it would make a HUGE difference in many peoples outlook on life and our place in the universe.
I'm not saying anything against Soapy Sam, I just don't understand his mindset..

You're not alone there:D

Look, you would be interested. So would I, though to a lesser extent. My argument is that most people have more pressing interests and would care very little if at all.

Lets be clear what we're talking about.
SETI are searching for patterned radio signals from extra terrestrial sources, which are not produced by known natural process- ie not pulsars or whatever.
This, they infer, would imply the existence of ET intelligent life.

First , that inference is not rock solid. There could be natural processes we know nothing about that might produce an apparent signal. In fact that's exactly what happened when Jocelyn Bell discovered the first pulsar. But let's ignore that. Assume they find something "real".

How far away is the source? If it was "in our backyard", we would have found it before now, without SETI. The larger the sphere we search, the higher the chance of a find- but also the further back in time that signal originated.
The highest probability is that we find signals thousands, or tens of thousands of years old. In that case, the chance of ever communicating with the source is zero. Each message would take longer than recorded human history.

Let's say we get amazingly lucky and find a source less than 100 light years away. We must now translate the signal . That won't happen in a week or a year, as we have no referents. (In the case of the novel "Contact", the message deliberately included such referents, making it easy to break. Any real message from space is likely to be a communication between two aliens (probably alien machines) that we happen to intercept, not a message tailored for us. Let's say after a decade we have enough of a sample to send a simple response."Hi! We're here!" We will get no answer in my lifetime, or probably in yours, unless you are very youthful indeed. (I'm nearly 53 and that is a factor in "understanding my mindset").

Surely, it would be fantastic to know there is other intelligence out there, but practically how would it affect you personally? And you are actually interested in such matters. I guarantee the majority of people are not. They care about what happens to their family, their neighbourhood, maybe their country, but they don't give a damn about what happens ten thousand miles away. Why would they care what happens 100 light years away?

My bet is that after a brief flurry of interest in the press, most of it ill informed, the whole issue would be left to the scientists in a matter of weeks.
ETA- Except for the conspiracy theorists, who would create an industry denying it was real.


Obviously a deliberate "Contact" scenario is very different. In that case I think I'd be as excited as anyone else. But how likely is that?

[Radrook]

People already believe in extraterrestrials-God and his angels and it definitely has had a deep impact on their lives. : )

[Soapy Sam]

Quite. But that is as you say, belief. Belief has a far greater impact on some lives than knowledge.
If SETI had a contact, it would be a scientific fact- which would be of little interest to those who believe in angels.

[Elvis666]

[QUOTE=bigred;3326775]I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this./QUOTE]

For one, they pioneered the practical application of distributed computing over the Internet by donated CPU cycles. Those same techniques are now being used in research with more "down-to-earth" benefits.

[Radrook]

Strange that someone who claims to love factual accuracy should consider it a virtue to blatantly misrepresent a group of people that way.

BTW

Denying existence of something doesn't prove it doesn't exist. Absence of proof doesn't constitute proof of absence. That's a basic given. To smugly assert otherwise is unscientific- a mind-set which is supposedly anathema to atheists.

[amb]

A needle in a giant haystack. I wish it wasn't so. But I doubt there is any intelligent life within at least 100-200 light years away. That's not to say there's NO life closer to us, there may well be marine life under the frozen oceans of Titan or other moons in our own back yard. But intelligence may be very rare. Intelligence enough to send radio signals into the cosmos are probably a factor of 1 in a million.

[godless dave]

Strange that someone who claims to love factual accuracy should consider it a virtue to blatantly misrepresent a group of people that way.

BTW

Denying existence of something doesn't prove it doesn't exist. Absence of proof doesn't constitute proof of absence. That's a basic given. To smugly assert otherwise is unscientific- a mind-set which is supposedly anathema to atheists.


What post are you responding to?

[Radrook]

What post are you responding to?

Post number 51

[godless dave]

What part of post 51 blatantly misrepresented a group of people?

[Kilgore Trout]

Quite. But that is as you say, belief. Belief has a far greater impact on some lives than knowledge.
If SETI had a contact, it would be a scientific fact- which would be of little interest to those who believe in angels.

I'm not so sure.. I think it might get a few people thinking, especially if certain questions or ideas are given much thought. Such as, if there are aliens, was there an alien version of Jesus? It would also seem that God didn't create the universe just for us.

I'm not saying the pope is going to throw his hands up in the air and say they had a good run, but it's all over now. Some will just deny it outright, some nutters may even say it's the word of God, but I think there would be a few that give it serious thought with respect to their beliefs.

I might be overestimating the number of people that this affects, but I think it will to some extent anyway.

[Radrook]

It would definitely have a great impact on all religious people since their views about their place in the universe might have to be modified to accommodate that discovery. There is nothing in the Bible, for example, that tells us that we are the only material creatures with intelligence in this vast universe. In fact, some have suggested that certain scriptures which refer to the host of heavens is referring to those extraterrestrials. However, for those religionists who vehemently insist that Man alone reflects the divine image, it will definitely require a complete about face if they are proven wrong.

Issues such as the following would immediately emerge:
Should these creatures be considered our spiritual brothers? An investigation as to whether they in fact do reflect God's image in terms of love justice wisdom and power determine the conclusion. For example, if the aliens turn out to be hostile to mankind then they will be seen as a race of sinful beings perhaps influenced by Satan or their equivalent of one. If they are benign, then they will be not so readily evaluated and the evaluation will be between being our spiritual equals or else somehow our inferiors.

All this would depend on their moral standards and how those moral standards affect their individual members and other creatures they might chance to come in contact with.

But most importantly in this religious evaluation would be whether they do or they do not believe in a creator. If they don't, and claim to never have, never have, then they will be perceived as our spiritual inferiors. If they do, then the nature of that belief will have to be examined and evaluated. What kind of deity do they worship. Is there concept so alien as to be irreconcilable with the Christian one? Or does it describe essentially the same God from a different but yet acceptable perspective?

[amb]

I agree with physicist Paul Davies. Seti is a good thing but very much doubt it will ever find other intelligent creatures. It's like dropping a nail clipping into the Pacific ocean.
Even if some life form is ever found, how do we communicate if it's 100 light years away.
We say ''hello how are you'', their response ''not bad'' will take 100 years to get here. Very hard to hold a conversation. At best, future generations may know that we are not alone in this infinate universe. If only for that purpose, then it's worth it.

[Safe-Keeper]

a) we know elk exist, it isn't an extraordinary claimThe existence of elk as a species was not in question - the existence of elk in the hunting area was.

Perhaps I should have added; colonised by a superior civilization. A more advanced one. That's evolution, survival of the strongest or fittest. That's the way it worksAppeals to tradition and nature constitute logical fallacies. I subscribe to a Scandinavian-wide history magazine, and this issue featured a quote from a physician who said it was perfectly natural that half of the country's children died before the age of eight, and that it was pointless to worry about this since it was the way nature worked.

b) elk hunting doesn't cost millions of dollarsChristianity costs billions of dollars, doesn't it? Have you proven the existence of God yet?

c) one can use your analogy to argue that we should continue believing in gods, and just about every other topicNo, because SETI doesn't really believe in aliens. SETI says there might be aliens out there, technically, and that we should investigate the possibility. This is a far cry from believing in a specific god. Look at it this way: if SETI suddenly sat down and wrote a book describing what the aliens looked like, where they lived, how their mindsets worked, how they evolved and what wars and other struggles and triumphs they went through, what they wanted of us, and how their civilization would end - all without having seen a single alien or even finding proof they existed in the first place - then it would be a decent comparison to Christendom. As it stands, though, the SETI stance is more reminiscent of agnosticism.

We say ''hello how are you'', their response ''not bad'' will take 100 years to get here. Very hard to hold a conversation. At best, future generations may know that we are not alone in this infinate universe. If only for that purpose, then it's worth it.How far can our stronger radio signals travel, anyhow? I heard in a documentary (Life Without People, or whatever it was called) that they dissipate into background noise after only a light year or two?

Even if some life form is ever found, how do we communicate if it's 100 light years away.I don't really care too much, to be honest. I'd be overwhelmed enough to realize there was intelligent life out there to get to the communication bit:).

[amb]

The existence of elk as a species was not in question - the existence of elk in the hunting area was.

Appeals to tradition and nature constitute logical fallacies. I subscribe to a Scandinavian-wide history magazine, and this issue featured a quote from a physician who said it was perfectly natural that half of the country's children died before the age of eight, and that it was pointless to worry about this since it was the way nature worked.

Christianity costs billions of dollars, doesn't it? Have you proven the existence of God yet?

No, because SETI doesn't really believe in aliens. SETI says there might be aliens out there, technically, and that we should investigate the possibility. This is a far cry from believing in a specific god. Look at it this way: if SETI suddenly sat down and wrote a book describing what the aliens looked like, where they lived, how their mindsets worked, how they evolved and what wars and other struggles and triumphs they went through, what they wanted of us, and how their civilization would end - all without having seen a single alien or even finding proof they existed in the first place - then it would be a decent comparison to Christendom. As it stands, though, the SETI stance is more reminiscent of agnosticism.

[quote]How far can our stronger radio signals travel, anyhow? I heard in a documentary (Life Without People, or whatever it was called) that they dissipate into background noise after only a light year or two?I'm not to sure about radio signals, but light travels for billions of years without dissipating.

[Radrook]

....

No, because SETI doesn't really believe in aliens. SETI says there might be aliens out there, technically, and that we should investigate the possibility. This is a far cry from believing in a specific god.

True, they don't claim because they aren't sure.


Look at it this way: if SETI suddenly sat down and wrote a book describing what the aliens looked like, where they lived, how their mindsets worked, how they evolved and what wars and other struggles and triumphs they went through, what they wanted of us, and how their civilization would end - all without having seen a single alien or even finding proof they existed in the first place - then it would be a decent comparison to Christendom.

False analogy. Christianity doesn't operate on the basis of non-proof as you describe. The basis for Christian belief in God is described by Paul in the letter to the Roman congregation:

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

So did the Hebrews:

Psalm 19:1
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.


As it stands, though, the SETI stance is more reminiscent of agnosticism.

....

True.

[davefoc]

I don't have anything to add to this thread. Mostly I just wanted to get subscribed to it.

El Greco pretty much summed up my thoughts. Probably there's some sentient technologically capable life out there but I think it's very unlikely to be detected in my lifetime.

As time as gone on, my various readings on this subject have gradually reduced my expectation of any kind of extraterrestrial contact. Based on an article in Scientific American that I read a few years ago it seems that only stars in a narrow band of the milky way are viable for life as we know it. Then for life to exist as we know it some rather fortuitous circumstances need to surround the planet that life exists on. And I suspect that they don't occur very often. And just the simple fact that SETI has been listening for a long time and hasn't found anything is beginning to provide negative evidence for the existence of civilizations near enough for us to detect.

[amb]

Because of the almost infinite number of galaxies out there there is bound to be, somewhere a life producing planet orbiting a sun similar to our own.
But if our earth is any example animal life, let alone intelligent animal life, would be almost impossible. Seti will not ever find another earth. Sure there may be billions of planets with simple life like bacteria in existence. The chance of another earth forming and intelligent beings evolving is probably a trillion to one chance.
A few years ago a very good book was released titled; ''Rare Earth.'' by two respected scientists named, Prof. Peter D. Ward and Astronomer Prof. Donald Brownlee of University of Washington in Seattle. I thoroughly recommend this book to inquiring minds such as mine.

[Radrook]

As a theist I see no difficulty whatsoever in there being life. Any type of life, whether intelligent, or non intelligent since from my standpoint that all depends on God's decision.

However, I do recognize that there are many areas in our universe which seem to be hostile to life as we know it. Such as the inner galactic regions where radiation is too intense due to the density of number of stars found there. Or on those planets recently discovered which display extremely elongated elliptical orbits which would cause them to be showered by lethal radiation on one extreme while freezing on the other. Or On planets whose orbits are too near their star making them veritable ovens. Or on planets that might be circling some cepheid variable, those stars which expand and shrink in response to what appears to be some inner core instability which makes the tug and war between outward radiation and gravity a dramatic one. All these conditions seem to mitigate against most earth-based forms of life being able to exist there.

[amb]

I on the other hand being an atheist believe no god is necessary for the start of life in any planet if the conditions are right. Like I said in my previous post, bacterial life could be in more abundant places than Drake ever imagined , perhaps in our own solar system. After all there have been more than a couple of life starting cycles right here on earth after catastrophic collisions with huge asteroids that extinguished all life that had maneged a toehold beforehand and had to start over. But Animal life is an entirely different matter and needs billions of years to evolve with a steady state sun like ours which according to a few astronomers are rare in our galaxy.

[godless dave]

Because of the almost infinite number of galaxies out there there is bound to be, somewhere a life producing planet orbiting a sun similar to our own.
But if our earth is any example animal life, let alone intelligent animal life, would be almost impossible. Seti will not ever find another earth. Sure there may be billions of planets with simple life like bacteria in existence. The chance of another earth forming and intelligent beings evolving is probably a trillion to one chance.

That's still pretty good odds.

But Animal life is an entirely different matter and needs billions of years to evolve with a steady state sun like ours which according to a few astronomers are rare in our galaxy.


Yellow stars like our sun are among the most common in the universe.

[Old Bob]

Hi, why bother with setti, when we know the gov. works with ET. The moon rockets saw saucer's sitting on the edge of a crator watching them. So many people have had contact, can't all be stupid. Our spirit guides say they are real. The Gov. next act may be a false ET. invasion, time will tell. Cheers Old Bob

[amb]

That's still pretty good odds.




Yellow stars like our sun are among the most common in the universe.I thought suns like ours are quite rare. Yellow suns are very common, but their mostly giants and short lived unlike our sun which will probably live in the vicinity of 10 billion years. Even if your right, it;s complement of planets have to be something like our solar system. With gas giants like Jupiter and rocky planets like earth at just the right distance from it's sun to have any chance of life evolving.

[Soapy Sam]

Hi, why bother with setti, when we know the gov. works with ET. The moon rockets saw saucer's sitting on the edge of a crator watching them. So many people have had contact, can't all be stupid. Our spirit guides say they are real. The Gov. next act may be a false ET. invasion, time will tell. Cheers Old Bob

Bob is this a wind-up, or are you serious? Honestly, I can't tell, not knowing you.

Whichever- welcome to the forum.

[Jimbo07]

That's still pretty good odds.

With an estimated 100 billion stars in our galaxy (1x1011), you would need only ten galaxies to get 1 trillion (1x1012). Now, I don't know how many galaxies there are, but let's use the conservative estimate of 4 million (probably billions)

Galaxy Estimate (http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=40)

and pull 1 in 1000 stars as "candidates" out of my butt...

(1x1011x4x106)/(1x103x1x1012) = 400 potential civilizations!

Not bad! Too bad we're too far apart to meaningfully communicate. My guess is that the number of planets with something resembling life is actually much higher... but that's a guess.

[amb]

Jimbo that's what I perceive as well. because of the astronomical numbers we are dealing with, the odds greatly favour probably millions of other life bearing planets scattered throughout the cosmos. But the nearest one to us may be in the Oder of anything between 1 to 5 or higher billion light years away.

[Radrook]

We were discussing this recently and my son said the following:

"If numbers determine probability, and probability is so great due to the astronomical numbers involved, then we should expect the vacuum to be abuzz with their communications. Yet we are met with an unnerving deathly silence instead."

Given the eons that transpired before we appeared in recent universal history and developed signal-detection abilities some type of communication signal should be easily evident.

We have to remember that our star is a second-generation star supposedly produced from the material of another star that went supernova. Prior to that there was a universe with billions of galaxies each containing billions of stars with who knows how many planets in orbit about them.

Our sun is said to be approx. five billion years old. If indeed the top estimates of fifteen-billion years for the age of our universe is correct, then that leaves a full ten-billion years prior to the sun's ignition for civilizations to develop. A billion is a thousand-million. So that means that ten-times a thousand-million years transpired before our sun ignited its fusion engine. Two-thousand-million years more for the earth to take form. Three-thousand-million more for us to get to the present.

That by itself makes the silence even more eerie.

BTW

I am aware of the diverse conditions of the universe prior to the sun's appearance as a second generation star. So please deduct whatever time is necessary from my estimates.

[davefoc]

An interesting thought Radrook, but it has a flaw I think.

Signal intensity will fall off with distance. At some point the intensity of the signal falls below the local noise level for that particular frequency and the signal becomes undetectable.

So there could have been lots of civilizations that have come and gone that produced a signal that passed us by that can't be distinguished from the noise.

This is a somewhat complicated issue that I know only a little bit about. I don't remember the numbers now but I don't think SETI has much hope of detecting a signal from a planet that is much more than 50 light years away which of course is a minuscule distance compared to the distances of the galaxy and the size of the galaxy is minuscule compared to the overall universe.

Even at those kind of distances a civilization with really large antennae that they have decided to aim at us is required or a civilization that is sending out massively powerful signals omnidirectionally is required.

I wish I could remember more of the actual numbers here but whatever the actual distances that allowed for the likely detection of a signal they were hugely less than the size of the galaxy. This is one of the reasons that I think it is so unlikely that SETI will ever detect a sentient civilization.

[thesyntaxera]

This is total speculation, and laugh if you must..but...

What if looking for radio signals is the wrong way to go...perhaps radio transmission is just the first step in communication?

For instance, lets say the LHC validates the Higgs field hypothesis...couldn't it hypothetically be concievable that the field itself could transmit data or communications with a suffciently advanced technology...or perhaps something utilizing entanglement of electrons?

I was just thinking about this after watching some Borg episodes...don't mind me...

[davefoc]

This is total speculation, and laugh if you must..but...

What if looking for radio signals is the wrong way to go...perhaps radio transmission is just the first step in communication?

For instance, lets say the LHC validates the Higgs field hypothesis...couldn't it hypothetically be concievable that the field itself could transmit data or communications with a suffciently advanced technology...or perhaps something utilizing entanglement of electrons?

I was just thinking about this after watching some Borg episodes...don't mind me...

Right now the only two kinds of signals that might be used from what I know would be electro-magnetic and neutrino beams. I've never heard of anybody actually proposing a neutrino beam but it seems at least conceivable since there have been at least proposed experiments to see if neutrinos could be produced in one place, transmitted through the earth and detected at another location.

But there have been suggestions that there are other possibilities than the microwave frequencies that are mostly commonly scanned by SETI efforts. One such idea is optical laser pulses. This is a technical paper about the possibility:
http://seti.harvard.edu/oseti/tech.pdf

I didn't read through the whole thing but they propose that detection of emitters within a radius of about 1000 LY is possible.

Here is a document that I found discussion the detection range limits for different kinds of earth produced electro magnetic radiation:

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/astronomy/faq/part6/section-12.html

The actual table is about 2/3 of the way through the paper. I put a copy of the table below:

-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Source | Frequency | Bandwidth | Tsys | EIRP | Detection |
| Range | (Br) |(Kelvin)| | Range (R) |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
AM Radio | 530-1605 kHz | 10 kHz | 68E6 | 100 KW | 0.007 AU |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
FM Radio | 88-108 MHz | 150 kHz | 430 | 5 MW | 5.4 AU |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
UHF TV | 470-806 MHz | 6 MHz | 50 ? | 5 MW | 2.5 AU |
Picture | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
UHF TV | 470-806 MHz | 0.1 Hz | 50 ? | 5 MW | 0.3 LY |
Carrier | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
WSR-88D | 2.8 GHz | 0.63 MHz | 40 | 32 GW | 0.01 LY |
Weather Radar| | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Arecibo | 2.380 GHz | 0.1 Hz | 40 | 22 TW | 720 LY |
S-Band (CW) | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Arecibo | 2.380 GHz | 0.1 Hz | 40 | 1 TW | 150 LY |
S-Band (CW) | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Arecibo | 2.380 GHz | 0.1 Hz | 40 | 1 GW | 5 LY |
S-Band (CW) | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Pioneer 10 | 2.295 GHz | 1.0 Hz | 40 | 1.6 kW | 120 AU |
Carrier | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+

Notice that a one terawatt signal transmitted from a Arecibo sized antenna is required to reach a range of 150 light years.

So you not only have to envision an advanced civilization. You have to envision an advanced civilization that decides to construct a vastly powerful transmitter, a massive antenna and the desire to use them to engage in what is likely to be only one way communication with a fellow advanced civilizaton.

Seems like a long shot to me.

[amb]

I believe you have better odds at winning lotto than Seti has of finding intelligent lifeforms of any kind.

[thesyntaxera]

Right now the only two kinds of signals that might be used from what I know would be electro-magnetic and neutrino beams. I've never heard of anybody actually proposing a neutrino beam but it seems at least conceivable since there have been at least proposed experiments to see if neutrinos could be produced in one place, transmitted through the earth and detected at another location.....snip....

Thanks for the information. It really put's into perspective the difficulty and improbability of the task before them.

I am still hopefull, and I will still be running my seti @home just in case.

To bring up another idea...the drake equation...how respectable is it? I have read that there could potentially be as many as 30 billion earth like planets in our galaxy, and it just makes me wonder...

[amb]

Thanks for the information. It really put's into perspective the difficulty and improbability of the task before them.

I am still hopefull, and I will still be running my seti @home just in case.

To bring up another idea...the drake equation...how respectable is it? I have read that there could potentially be as many as 30 billion earth like planets in our galaxy, and it just makes me wonder...
With all due respect to Mr Drake, I believe he is wrong. If that number was correct we would by now be telling our visitors to go away, there would be literally thousands of them knocking on our doors. Anyway, I think he mentions that number for the whole universe, not our galaxy alone which has an estimated 3 billion stars.

[davefoc]

With all due respect to Mr Drake, I believe he is wrong. If that number was correct we would by now be telling our visitors to go away, there would be literally thousands of them knocking on our doors. Anyway, I think he mentions that number for the whole universe, not our galaxy alone which has an estimated 3 billion stars.

from the wikipedia article on the milky way:
The stellar disk of the Milky Way galaxy is approximately 100,000 light years in diameter, and is believed to be, on average, about 1,000 light years thick.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way_galaxy#cite_note-7) It is estimated to contain at least 200 billion stars[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_way_galaxy#cite_note-8) and possibly up to 400 billion stars,Still, based on my understanding 30 billion earth like planets sounds like way too many. The likely habitable location range for an earth like planet in our solar system is just a little beyond the earth and a little closer to the sun than the earth. So even if earth like planets occur occasionally they have to have an orbit radius that is pretty close to earth's to be habitable for advanced life similar to us. (I guess the range is somewhat larger if we're only talking bacteria or maybe creatures that are vastly different than us).

But that's not enough they have to be in the habitable zone of the galaxy and this places additional restrictions on the number. Too far from the galactic center and not enough heavy elements for life. Too close and radiation fries your brains.

[Old Bob]

Hi thanks for the welcome, no it's not a windup Google the Apollo transcripts. If you want to hear your spirit guides don't ingest cannola oil flouride or sweetner as the first two bugger your chi. We have 11 underground bases and I would think some would be involed with ET. Cheers Old Bob from down under.

[davefoc]

-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Source | Frequency | Bandwidth | Tsys | EIRP | Detection |
| Range | (Br) |(Kelvin)| | Range (R) |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
AM Radio | 530-1605 kHz | 10 kHz | 68E6 | 100 KW | 0.007 AU |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
FM Radio | 88-108 MHz | 150 kHz | 430 | 5 MW | 5.4 AU |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
UHF TV | 470-806 MHz | 6 MHz | 50 ? | 5 MW | 2.5 AU |
Picture | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
UHF TV | 470-806 MHz | 0.1 Hz | 50 ? | 5 MW | 0.3 LY |
Carrier | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
WSR-88D | 2.8 GHz | 0.63 MHz | 40 | 32 GW | 0.01 LY |
Weather Radar| | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Arecibo | 2.380 GHz | 0.1 Hz | 40 | 22 TW | 720 LY |
S-Band (CW) | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Arecibo | 2.380 GHz | 0.1 Hz | 40 | 1 TW | 150 LY |
S-Band (CW) | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Arecibo | 2.380 GHz | 0.1 Hz | 40 | 1 GW | 5 LY |
S-Band (CW) | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------+
Pioneer 10 | 2.295 GHz | 1.0 Hz | 40 | 1.6 kW | 120 AU |
Carrier | | | | | |
-------------+--------------+-----------+--------+--------+-----------
Just redisplayed table above for easier reading, AU = astronomical unit (avg. distance of earth to sun), LY = light year

[thesyntaxera]

Well..Mr. Drake didn't come up with the 30 billion number...that I pulled from this article on space.com:

30 Billion Earths? New Estimate of Exoplanets in Our Galaxy
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/jupiter_typical_020128.html

It sounds like they are looking for solar systems such as ours by identifying jupiter like planets that function as a "protector" for potential inner planets.

So how many Jupiters are out there orbiting Sun-like stars in the Milky Way Galaxy?

"At least a billion, but probably more like 30 billion," Lineweaver told SPACE.com.

And the math behind that?

"There are about 300 billion stars in our galaxy. About 10 percent (or 30 billion) are roughly Sun-like," he explained. "At least 5 percent (1.5 billion) but possibly as many as 90 percent or 100 percent (about 30 billion) of these have Jupiter-like planets."

These estimates would vary based on exactly what you call Jupiter-like or Sun-like, Lineweaver said.

What about Earths?

The calculations, which are part of a paper that has been submitted to the journal Astrobiology, don't bear directly on worlds like our own. But with what's known of planet formation, some speculation is possible.

"A reasonable guess is the same number of Earths as Jupiters," Lineweaver said.

That, however, depends heavily on how one defines Earth-like. If one includes rocky planets in general, like Mercury, Venus and Mars, "then they are probably more common than Jupiters," he said. If, however, you mean rocky planets with liquid water at the surface, "then we really can't answer that very well. They may be as common as Jupiters, or they may be much less common."

Alan Boss, an expert in planetary system formation at the Carnegie Institution of Washington, said the new calculations for Jovian twins seem reasonable. Trying then to estimate the number of Earth-like planets requires "a leap of faith, but one which appears to be plausible," he said.

"As the veil covering the unseen portions of discovery space is lowered in the next decade, I expect we will find that Jupiter-like planets are commonplace," said Boss, who was not involved in the new study. "Whether or not that also means Earth-like planets are common can only be proven by NASA's Kepler mission."

Kepler, recently approved to launch in 2006, will monitor 100,000 stars for telltale dips in light indicating an Earth-sized planet in an Earth-like orbit has crossed in front of the star. While it would not take photographs, Kepler could provide the first census of planets that have the potential to support life.

Though the article doesn't provide much in the way of actual fact, it is an interesting thought to ponder...the kepler mission they mention toward the end looks promising, maybe then we will have a better picture?

[davefoc]

The issue of how many earth like planets there are in the galaxy depends on how one defines earth like planet.

If earth like means a planet capable of sustaining complex life the number might be very small.

Here's an article that represents a pessimistic view:
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-01o.html

The gist of it is that the life sustaining earth like planet needs to be in a solar system with a sun similar to ours and in a nearly circular orbit about the same distance the earth is from the sun.

It also needs to be in a galaxy habitable zone and here's where stuff takes a very pessimistic turn. The solar system can't be too close to the center (brain frying radiation and too many comets) and it can't be too far away (not enough heavier elements) and it can't be in the galaxy arms (similar problems to being too close to the galactic center) and it can't be in an orbit around the galactic center that causes it to transition into the arms.

So if this guy is right don't be looking for that message from E.T. any time soon. We might be the only sentient life in our galaxy and most probably the only sentient life within range of any kind of advanced civilization transmitters.

[Radrook]

To be earhlike in the truest sense of the word they would also need a moon of adequate density and distance in order to stabilize their axis rotation angle. Otherwise they will have a chaos of weather and seasons as these planets wobble erratically. In fact, rotational instability due to lack of a stabilizing moon is one hypothesis put forth in an attempt to explain the factors leading Mars' present condition.

[amb]

Not forgetting for a moment all the coincidences that produced life here.
I think bacterial life is even greater than Drakes equation. But animal life, let alone intelligent animals like us are a rarity not a common occurrence.

[thesyntaxera]

Not forgetting for a moment all the coincidences that produced life here.
I think bacterial life is even greater than Drakes equation. But animal life, let alone intelligent animals like us are a rarity not a common occurrence.

In this vein, yesterday I was looking about on google video and happened across a channel 4 documentary series I hadn't seen for awhile...it was the "What we still don't know.." series, particularly the "are we alone" segment:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7086762533420568365

In the video some folks make the case that life is not a coincidental/chance occurrence but something that was inevitable through chemistry given the vastness of space, and the timescales involved.

Anyway...they make and interesting case...

[Radrook]

Is it possible for impossibility to be inevitable?

[thesyntaxera]

Is it possible for impossibility to be inevitable?

I guess that depends...

[amb]

In this vein, yesterday I was looking about on google video and happened across a channel 4 documentary series I hadn't seen for awhile...it was the "What we still don't know.." series, particularly the "are we alone" segment:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7086762533420568365

In the video some folks make the case that life is not a coincidental/chance occurrence but something that was inevitable through chemistry given the vastness of space, and the timescales involved.

Anyway...they make and interesting case...
Martin Rees is a world wide treasure. Listen to his speech on astronomy on the same site, the man is a genius.
The are we alone segment makes a lot of sense also. After all, look up at the sky, the process of molecular self-assembly is common place in our universe.
The countless stars and galaxies which arose spontaneously by a process of self-assembly is proof of that. So life has to be possible in countless worlds. Even intelligent life. But earth life-like planets must still be very rare. There may be thousands in our galaxy alone, but where do you look in such a vast cosmos? It's like looking for a needle in a haystack the size of Texas.

[Radrook]

I guess that depends...


Is it possible for all possibilities to be inevitable then?

[thesyntaxera]

Is it possible for all possibilities to be inevitable then?

Again, I guess it all depends...

What do you think?

[Radrook]

Again, I guess it all depends...

What do you think?


That depends. : )

[davefoc]

...

Notice that a one terawatt signal transmitted from a Arecibo sized antenna is required to reach a range of 150 light years.

So you not only have to envision an advanced civilization. You have to envision an advanced civilization that decides to construct a vastly powerful transmitter, a massive antenna and the desire to use them to engage in what is likely to be only one way communication with a fellow advanced civilizaton.

Seems like a long shot to me.

I wanted to revisit this because I assumed something that was wrong when I made my original post.

The transmit power that is listed in the table is EIRP (Effective Isotropic Radiated Power). This value takes into account the gain of the antenna. For a transmitting antenna this is the ratio of power transmitted in a particular direction to the power that would have been transmitted if the antenna had radiated omnidirectionally. A spot light could be seen to have gain in the same way.

I did a calculation based on the formulas they supplied to see how powerful a transmitter would need to be with an Arecibo sized antenna to achieve the one terawatt output they listed assuming a 2ghz signal. According to my possibly incorrect calculations the hypothetical extraterrestrial sentient being only needs a 250KW transmitter and attach it to an Arecibo sized (305 meters) antenna and aim it at earth and his signal should be detectable with the Earth's Arecibo antenna when the earth's Arecibo's antenna is pointed at him and receiving on the right frequency.

Of course, even with the much reduced transmitter power required we're still expecting a lot from our extraterrestrial radio building alien. He needs to not only build his giant antenna but he has to aim it and only very limited aiming either for receive or transmit is possible with the Arecibo antennae on earth since it is built into the ground. Overall still a big long shot to detect a signal from as far away as 150 LY's I think.

[Jimbo07]

Talk of exotic communications frequencies (or even methods) discounts the idea that ETI wants to be found. If it did, it might be reasonable to search the Water Hole:

The Water Hole (http://www.setileague.org/general/waterhol.htm)

[amb]

Simple life on Earth seems to have emerged quite quickly, whereas it took nearly 3 billion years for multi cellular organisms to come on the scene. This disparity of timescales suggests that there may be severe barriers to the emergence of any complex life. Intelligence could therefore be exceedingly rare even if simple life were widespread. Certainly our own emergence was the outcome of time and chance. What would have happened if the dinosaurs hadn't been wiped out? Evolution may have followed a completely different path. The chain that led to mammalian evolution that led to us may have been foreclosed. We can't say whether any other species would have taken our role.
Some scientists claim that even in a complex biosphere, the emergence of intelligent life was a fluke. I will stick to my hypothesis that intelligent life out there is exceedingly rare.
That's not to say we are alone. Just one of perhaps a thousand other intelligent lifeforms in the cosmos. Only because of the trillions of other galaxies out there.

[Soapy Sam]

The answer to the specific question of dinosaur extinction may well be that (had the rock not hit) a technical civilisation could have existed by 60MY ago. The ornithomimids show a very high brain / body mass ratio.

Your general point is correct though. The Drake - type calculations concentrate on space and tend to ignore time. The probability of two civilisations evolving near enough to one another in both space and time to allow even lightspeed communication is not great.
My own suspicion is like yours. Simple life in some form may be relatively abundant, but intelligence may be extremely rare, with the combination of two intelligences as near neighbours in spacetime simply being vanishingly improbable.

[shadron]

Some of the useful aspects of SETI:

Definition and refinement of requirements for such a search - this will help with the organization of other low probability, high-payoff searches, such as for earth-bound asteroids.

Improved listening gear (they've made several advances into miniaturizing and organizing radio gear, how to handle interference, multiple channel recording, etc).

On-the-side discoveries - several "false alarms" have turned out to be interesting discoveries in their own rights. Can we put pulsars in this category, or were they too early?

Developments in distributed computing - all the PCs running protein folding have outrun all other computer projects in terms of computer power used, developed on the SETI model.

It is the classic small effort expended to reach a low probability goal, with a relatively large payoff if it happens. Besides, how else are we to resolve Fermi's paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)?

[amb]

S.Sam Is probably right. Both Fermi and Drake fail to take s/time in their calculations.
There could have been and gone hundreds of civilizations before our own. Seeing that our sun is a second generation star and and seeing that all the first generation stars consisted of mostly hydrogen and no carbon until the first supernovas spewed the elements for planet building into the cosmos billions of years ago. Even if life started much earlier on some galaxy far, far away, it would be from at least a second generation star, never a first. That could mean that given the flukes required for intelligence, we may well be one of the first to arrive or there may be some civilizations out there just thousands of years older or younger. Either way, we may never have contact with another civilization.

[Jimbo07]

Intelligence: A Rare Cosmic Commodity (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080410-am-intelligence-model.html)

Now, the idea that SETI will be fruitless (at least with regards to ETI), resonates with me and my feelings of how the universe is unfolding. I have a story in mind about continuing to search for (but never finding) ETI, even if humans had colonies on other planets.

However... these are just feelings, and I'm making no claim to data...

Is Watson simply pulling the 10% figure out of his posterior?

Without reading his actual article, I don't know...

[jammonius]

The seti search is the functional equivalent of dipping your toe into the Pacific Ocean for about .000001 of a nanosecond while hoping a dolphin touch it. And that might be an overstatement.

[Seismosaurus]

Er, the Drake equation does factor in time. That's why the final term of it is the time a civilisation can be expected to endure.

[amb]

The seti search is the functional equivalent of dipping your toe into the Pacific Ocean for about .000001 of a nanosecond while hoping a dolphin touch it. And that might be an overstatement. Another good example would be a homeopathy medicine.
Diluted down to one billionth part of a teaspoon of water.
Not that I don't believe there's life out there, there's bound to be life somewhere considering the size of our galaxy let alone the universe.
So far things look a little bleak to say the least, in our vicinity anyway.
But it's still worth every cent that's spent, because we are an inquiring creatures that have to know one way or the other. Life may be in abundance out there, but it may be only bacterial type. Intelligence may be rarer than hens teeth. All the more reason to protect our environment and the health of planet Earth. :eye-poppi

[Radrook]

I don't if if they ever wil or won't find intelligent or non-intelligent ET life. One thing I do know for sure however, if they ever do find life, whatever its form might chance to be, it won't be there due to an infinite sequence of happy accidents.

[davefoc]

I don't if if they ever wil or won't find intelligent or non-intelligent ET life. One thing I do know for sure however, if they ever do find life, whatever its form might chance to be, it won't be there due to an infinite sequence of happy accidents.

??

[amb]

I don't if if they ever wil or won't find intelligent or non-intelligent ET life. One thing I do know for sure however, if they ever do find life, whatever its form might chance to be, it won't be there due to an infinite sequence of happy accidents. Please don't tell us that if life is found out there ''god did it''
All it it needs is one in a trillion chance and still be possible considering the almost infinite size of the cosmos and almost infinite number of galaxies out there. :eye-poppi

[Radrook]

Please don't tell us that if life is found out there ''god did it''
All it it needs is one in a trillion chance and still be possible considering the almost infinite size of the cosmos and almost infinite number of galaxies out there. :eye-poppi

So happy accidents become happier the more material you provide. I don't buy that.

BTW

Astronomers have never claimed that the universe is infinite.

[Jimbo07]

it won't be there due to an infinite sequence of happy accidents.

I fully agree!

i) The universe has a finite lifespan, so barring a "bouncing" universe, the idea of an infinite sequence of events is almost impossible...

ii) Not all of the accidents will have been happy!

:D

[amb]

So happy accidents become happier the more material you provide. I don't buy that.

BTW

Astronomers have never claimed that the universe is infinite. And neither do I.
I said almost infinite.
There are billions of stars in our galaxy alone, and there are billions of galaxies out there. The possibilities are endless
therefore almost infinite.

[amb]

I fully agree!

i) The universe has a finite lifespan, so barring a "bouncing" universe, the idea of an infinite sequence of events is almost impossible...

ii) Not all of the accidents will have been happy!

:D The more than 90% of life that has become extinct throughout earth's history is testimony to that.

[Jimbo07]

The more than 90% of life that has become extinct throughout earth's history is testimony to that.

You're a 1D10T! Nothing became extinct. Satan put those bones there to test our faith. Plus, oil has an abiological origin.

I pray for you! :mad:



















;)

[amb]

You're a 1D10T! Nothing became extinct. Satan put those bones there to test our faith. Plus, oil has an abiological origin.

I pray for you! You mean I can still be saved from damnation by your prayers? Thank you, thank you. I will buy you a beer if we ever meet.:p



















;)[/QUOTE]

[Jimbo07]

You mean I can still be saved from damnation by your prayers? Thank you, thank you. I will buy you a beer if we ever meet.:p

No, no, no. It's all more complicated. See, I pray that God will help you see the error of your own ways. Then it is up to you to open your heart to our saviour so that, through your own actions, He can save you from damnation. I mean, you can lead a horse to water, but a pinch in time is worth two in the bush!

Plus, the search for SETI is exactly the same as the search for God. If you don't believe my pastor, then you should believe the actress dressed as a scientist I saw in a movie!

...

Seriously, I'd love that beer!

:alc:

[amb]

No, no, no. It's all more complicated. See, I pray that God will help you see the error of your own ways. Then it is up to you to open your heart to our saviour so that, through your own actions, He can save you from damnation. I mean, you can lead a horse to water, but a pinch in time is worth two in the bush!

Plus, the search for SETI is exactly the same as the search for God. If you don't believe my pastor, then you should believe the actress dressed as a scientist I saw in a movie!

...

Seriously, I'd love that beer!

:alc:
Except that Seti may one day find that needle in a haystack.
The search for ''God'' is doomed to failure from the start.
Something that doesn't exist will never be found.
I would believe the actress before any pastor any time. Unless the pastor is discussing non religious matters. :p

[shadron]

No, no, no. It's all more complicated. See, I pray that God will help you see the error of your own ways. Then it is up to you to open your heart to our saviour so that, through your own actions, He can save you from damnation. I mean, you can lead a horse to water, but a pinch in time is worth two in the bush!

Plus, the search for SETI is exactly the same as the search for God. If you don't believe my pastor, then you should believe the actress dressed as a scientist I saw in a movie!

...

Seriously, I'd love that beer!

:alc:

Here's salt on the tail of your hops. Back to the mine!

The difference between SETI and God is the difference in shelling out ten dollars for a sweepstakes ticket and lending the same amount to your uncle to assist him in his research. In fact, that analogy applies in several ways.

[Jimbo07]

I see I took my joke too far...

[shadron]

Everything to excess!!

[Radrook]

I fully agree!

i) The universe has a finite lifespan, so barring a "bouncing" universe, the idea of an infinite sequence of events is almost impossible...

ii) Not all of the accidents will have been happy!

:D

True-but sufficiently numerically happy to get the job done while the unhappy ones not so drastically unhappy as to prevent the happy ones from mimicking a guiding mind.

[Jimbo07]

as to prevent the happy ones from mimicking a guiding mind.

a mind made of scrambled eggs, maybe...

[Radrook]

a mind made of scrambled eggs, maybe...

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

[Jimbo07]

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

Well, to be fair, it's not my case, because I am insufficiently expert to advance original thinking on the subject. That said...

I imagine there's a difference between 'wonderfully complex' and 'irreducibly complex' (the ID claim). Irreducible complexity has been dealt with many times, and many here would no-doubt call it bunk.

However, to borrow your phrase, wonderful complexity is not addressed often-enough. The body (forget human, just horse, chicken, etc.) is phenomenally intricate. We're barely able to wrap our pea-brains around it, and the brain still holds secrets... but these things aren't inscrutable. Complex, intricate and barely able do not mean unable. Some of the things that we have figured out suggest some strength and flexibility, but also a remarkable fragility! Key systems have little (or no) redundancy. There are so many failure modes that some are still unknown. They are energy inefficient.

In short, the body may have been designed by engineers, perhaps even clever ones, but they didn't have a robust Quality Assurance Process! :D

[shadron]

ISO-9000, 6 Sigma Darwinism?

[Leftus]

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

All I hear geologists say is how wonderfully complex planet Earth is and marvelling at the way plate tectonics work. You probably do the same until someone mentions Flat Earth. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

[godless dave]

All I hear scientists say is how wonderfully complex nature is and marvelling at the way organisms are put together. You probably do the same until someone mentions ID. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

There is no contradiction.

[amb]

The only contradictions are found in the babble, not biology or abiogenesis.

[Radrook]

All I hear geologists say is how wonderfully complex planet Earth is and marvelling at the way plate tectonics work. You probably do the same until someone mentions Flat Earth. Then you panic and shift into the heckling and jeckling mode. It's that type of self-contradiction which seriously weakens your case.

Why would I panic when some ignoramus mentions a flat earth? Furthermore, what does such an imbecilic idea have to do with the possibility or impossibility of ID? NOTHING! They are mutually- exclusive completely unrelated topics. Trying to merge them is illogical. Comes under the term-obfuscation. Or perhaps begging the question? One thing is for sure, it definitely isn't cogent reasoning.

BTW

To me the belief in abiogeneisis is babble as it is to certain scientists who disagree with it despite their complete understanding of its unwarranted and unprovable assumptions.

[excerpt:


In The Beginning Was The Word
"The idea of a universal mind or Logos would be, I think, a fairly plausible inference from the present state of scientific theory."

Arthur Eddington,
(Astrophysicist): Heeren, F. 1995. Show Me God. Wheeling, IL, Searchlight Publications, p. 233.


Excerpt


Evolution Roulette
"What gambler would be crazy enough to play roulette with random evolution? The probability of dust carried by the wind reproducing Durer's 'Melancholia' is less infinitesimal than the probability of copy errors in the DNA molecule leading to the formation of the eye; besides, these errors had no relationship whatsoever with the function that the eye would have to perform or was starting to perform.
There is no law against daydreaming, but science must not indulge in it."

Pierre-Paul Grasse,
French zoologist in 'Evolution of Living Organisms' (New York: Academic Press, 1977),

Excerpt


I Give Up!
"If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural forces and radiation, how has it come into being?
There is another theory, now quite out of favor, which is based upon the ideas of Lamarck: that if an organism needs an improvement it will develop it, and transmit it to its progeny.
I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation.
I know this is an anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."

Dr. H. S. Lipson,
F.R.S. Professor of Physics, University of Manchester, UK, 'A physicist looks at evolution', Physics Bulletin, 1980, vol 31,


http://unmaskingevolution.com/4-abiogenesis.htm

Bolding mine

[I Ratant]

"I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this."
"Well, here we are at the top of the mountain. No elk here, let's go home".

[Radrook]

"I can't wait to hear how SETI has done this."
"Well, here we are at the top of the mountain. No elk here, let's go home".

I don't think that SETI searches can ever justyify such a statement. SETI searches
are too meager and the top of the mountain seems to be forever beyond reach.

[amb]

The thing is, how do you search for a needle in a huge double sized haystack?

Billions of targets in our galaxy alone and life as we know it is so an unlikely event that if it did find intelligent life it would be regarded as a million to one shot.
Even life based on silicone for example would show some signs of intelligence that would be recognised by us if it exists.

I'm of the opinion that the cosmos is teeming with life. But it's only bacterial in nature or very primitive one celled at best.

[Radrook]

Just recently a planet that might be a candidate for haboring our type of life was discovered. The problem is that it's 20 light years distant. Since light travels at approx 186,000 mps that means that two-way communication would have to be at forty-year intervals. It also means that if there is intelligent life there they either haven't developed the technology yet, aren't interested in communicating, or else are communicating in some manner we havent been able to detect. The overall impression I get is that these overwhelming distances indicate that we were never meant to have contact with such beings if indeed they do exist.

[shadron]

Just recently a planet that might be a candidate for haboring our type of life was discovered. The problem is that it's 20 light years distant. Since light travels at approx 186,000 mps that means that two-way communication would have to be at forty-year intervals. It also means that if there is intelligent life there they either haven't developed the technology yet, aren't interested in communicating, or else are communicating in some manner we havent been able to detect. The overall impression I get is that these overwhelming distances indicate that we were never meant to have contact with such beings if indeed they do exist.

<hysterical reaction that radrook expects from me>The "impression you get"? You mean the Bible doesn't say? Oh, my, you're on your own, huh? I guess were supposed to assume that since god made them so far away we're not supposed to communicate and ask sticky questions like, "Do they have souls? Do they need to be saved, or did they pass their big test? Do they even have a religious concept at all? What do they think of the Big Bang, or evolution? Why are they not mentioned in Genesis, as all important things are?"

If we do find someone at that distance and they are communicating, I think we'll just send them wikipedia one page at a time, and read what they send, and eventually we'll sort of catch up to each other. But don't worry - you'll have at least 20 years to prepare.</hysteria>

[amb]

<hysterical reaction that radrook expects from me>The "impression you get"? You mean the Bible doesn't say? Oh, my, you're on your own, huh? I guess were supposed to assume that since god made them so far away we're not supposed to communicate and ask sticky questions like, "Do they have souls? Do they need to be saved, or did they pass their big test? Do they even have a religious concept at all? What do they think of the Big Bang, or evolution? Why are they not mentioned in Genesis, as all important things are?"

If we do find someone at that distance and they are communicating, I think we'll just send them wikipedia one page at a time, and read what they send, and eventually we'll sort of catch up to each other. But don't worry - you'll have at least 20 years to prepare.</hysteria>
Or the problem of what do they look like?
What if their intelligent dinosaurs? would that mean god is not really in our image? And that the babble is after all just that?

[Jimbo07]

Or the problem of what do they look like?
What if their intelligent dinosaurs? would that mean god is not really in our image? And that the babble is after all just that?

They've got this covered. "His Image" is a metaphorical statement... :boggled:

[Radrook]

<hysterical reaction that radrook expects from me>The "impression you get"? You mean the Bible doesn't say? Oh, my, you're on your own, huh? I guess were supposed to assume that since god made them so far away we're not supposed to communicate and ask sticky questions like, "Do they have souls? Do they need to be saved, or did they pass their big test? Do they even have a religious concept at all? What do they think of the Big Bang, or evolution? Why are they not mentioned in Genesis, as all important things are?"

If we do find someone at that distance and they are
communicating, I think we'll just send them wikipedia one page at a time, and read what they send, and eventually we'll sort of catch up to each other. But don't worry - you'll have at least 20 years to prepare.</hysteria>

Please note that whenever someone expresses his views on this subject that person doesn't necessarily do it in order to provoke any type of negative reaction but simply wishes to express his views as he sees things. I for example don't assume anyone here is trying to get me to react hysterically or in any other way when I read anything that goes contrary to my view. So why should anyone assume that about any of my views?

My opinion is simply my opinion. Now, if my opinion is perceived as a serious affront to other opinions and is viewed as being some type of challenge-then rest assured it isn't meant that way. It's simply my opinion which I feel I have a right to express as much as anyone else without coming under immediate attack. Hope that clears up things a little.

BTW

The questions asked here aren't insurmountable obstacles fact, they are easily answerable. But for me to do so would deviate the thread into the religious. However, if you wish to address those points feel free to post it in the religious forum and I'll be glad to respond to those supposedly insurmountable issues

.

[Radrook]

Or the problem of what do they look like?
What if their intelligent dinosaurs? would that mean god is not really in our image? And that the babble is after all just that?

The answer to your query is given in the minister's sermon in the film: "Village of the Damned" The film is on the free-film category on Comcast on Demand. The film is about extraterrestrial life-so it fits in nicely with the thread.

[amb]

I watched that movie years ago. I can't recall that scene.
I will try and watch it again. Great film as I recall. I love SF if not too outrages.

[Radrook]

I watched that movie years ago. I can't recall that scene.
I will try and watch it again. Great film as I recall. I love SF if not too outrages.

I enjoy well-written sci fi as well. Christopher Reeves, may he rest in peace, gave a fine performance as one of the children's foster parents. The sermon explanation comes approximately in the middle of the film where it has become clear to the towns-people that something is definitely wrong with the children.

[amb]

''The Day The Earth Stood Still'' In my humble opinion is still ranked as one of the best S/F movies ever.
I also loved the original ''Time Machine'' with Rod Taylor as the lead.

[Radrook]

''The Day The Earth Stood Still'' In my humble opinion is still ranked as one of the best S/F movies ever.
I also loved the original ''Time Machine'' with Rod Taylor as the lead.

Those two are my favorites as well. Also the following ones:

Forbidden Planet, War of the Worlds, Aliens. The series "Twighlight Zone" had some good Sci Fi episodes. "To Serve Man" was a good one.

[amb]

The original Star Trek was also a great series with a great story line in each episode.

I used to watch ''Twilight Zone'' [Rod Serling as narrator] religiously.

[JoeyDonuts]

I heard the Arecibo Radiotelescope actually received a reply from star cluster M13...alien television excerpts. A couple minutes' worth of the Zaphod Beeblebrox Show followed by an infomercial for prime swampfront timeshare property on Dagobah.

"Limited time offer this is. Act now you must."

[amb]

How does one invest in this opportunity of a lifetime?? I have my credit card on standby.

Please post instructions ASAP. ;)

[The Drain]

How does one invest in this opportunity of a lifetime?? I have my credit card on standby.

Please post instructions ASAP. ;)

There's two ways.
1. Take over Arecibo during the middle of the day when all astronomers are asleep and fire off your credit card details into the cosmos
2. Or you can send me your credit card details and I will pass them on.

[amb]

I think I'll wait for something a bit more tangible.

[JoeyDonuts]

I think I'll wait for something a bit more tangible.

Beaming your CC info into the cosmos...hmm interesting.

It begs the question though...what if our first contact from another civilization was that your card had been declined?

I wonder if you could dispute the charges if some intergalactic identity thief decides to place an order for 500 cases of Saurian Brandy and a lifetime subscription to Pon Farr Uncensored on your Discover.

If you believe any of this, I've got a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.

[Gravy]

I heard the Arecibo Radiotelescope actually received a reply from star cluster M13...alien television excerpts. A couple minutes' worth of the Zaphod Beeblebrox Show followed by an infomercial for prime swampfront timeshare property on Dagobah.

"Limited time offer this is. Act now you must."
The one that gets me is "Heads on: apply directly to the foreheads!"

[CrikeyBobs]

I imagine there's a difference between 'wonderfully complex' and 'irreducibly complex' (the ID claim).

As an example, a fractal (eg The Mandelbrot set) is most certainly "wonderfully complex", but its complexity can be reduced to very simple arithmetic, involving repeated applications of multiplication and addition. And fractals are not restricted to the abstract world of virtual art, there are also fractals in nature (Fractal#In_nature)

[Radrook]

How is the eye reducibly complex?

[Cainkane1]

Wouldn't contact with Aliens be somewhat futile, based on the fact that the difference in time between us and the other life be so vast? (like, based on the time it would take for the signal to travel?)
Is ancient literature worthless because we no longer have contact with Herodotur or Socrates? If we could contact aliens we would have a lot to share even if we could never meet in person.

[amb]

Sure. We send a message and we receive a response 500 years later. Quite a conversation starter that is.

[Radrook]

Dawkins warned that perhaps it would be better not to try to communicate.

[amb]

What will happen to religion if the impossible ever happens and an alien civilization does make contact with us?
I think it will be the greatest comedy act of all time watching the fundies scramble for an explanation. :D

[Radrook]

What will happen to religion if the impossible ever happens and an alien civilization does make contact with us?
I think it will be the greatest comedy act of all time watching the fundies scramble for an explanation. :D


What is it that you believe fundies believe that prevents their accepting God having created other creatures on other planets?

[amb]

Fundies believe in an Earth centered universe. They reluctantly accepted that the Earth orbits the sun. In their sacred scriptures, it states that God made Adam and Eve in their image. Nowhere in the babble [Genesis] does it state that God also made OOraku and AAnnau on a planet far, far away.
Imagine if ET making contact with us knows nothing of any gods yet they would be at least 1oo-3oo thousand years ahead of us on the evolution path, both biological and technology wise.
This very question was asked of a high ranking church official decades ago. His response was. '' Well, if they do not know of Jeebuse's sacrifice here on Earth, we would have to teach them about the good news of the gospels.'' Imagine that. ET traveling for perhaps hundreds of light years to be bible bashed by some fundy organization.

[Radrook]

Fundies believe in an Earth centered universe. They reluctantly accepted that the Earth orbits the sun.

Can you please provide the name of this denomination or denominations that still refuse to accept that the earth isn't the center of the universe? The reason I ask is because in all my years as spiritual disciplinarian : ) I have yet to meet one. I do know there are people who think the earth is flat. But they aren't religiously motivated.

In their sacred scriptures, it states that God made Adam and Eve in their image. Nowhere in the babble [Genesis] does it state that God also made OOraku and AAnnau on a planet far, far away.

That's because the Bible is a book for mankind and about it's place and responsibilities on this earth. The Bible actually does mention extraterrestrial non- human beings-angels.
In fact, it speaks of an invasion by those beings and their genetic experiments with mankind during Noah's day. So it isn't at all quiet about non-human life-forms. It's silence in reference to material non-human or extraterrestrial human life-forms doesn't prove that they don't exist. It merely might be that he chooses not to mention them.


Imagine if ET making contact with us knows nothing of any gods yet they would be at least 1oo-3oo thousand years ahead of us on the evolution path, both biological and technology wise.
This very question was asked of a high ranking church official decades ago. His response was. '' Well, if they do not know of Jeebuse's sacrifice here on Earth, we would have to teach them about the good news of the gospels.'' Imagine that. ET traveling for perhaps hundreds of light years to be bible bashed by some fundy organization.

There are ignoramuses who claim to know but know NOTHING. Or who claim expertise in Christian biblical teachings but when questioned reveal they are charlatans. The persons or person you just described fits that description. There are millions of fundamentalists who don't hold the views you describe. So it is a misrepresentation to describe them that way.

bTW
Your purposeful misspellings don't really convey anything other than your need to
mock, chortle, denigrate, and generally attempt to annoy those who consider those words sacred. In view of your chosen festering modus operandi I am forced to use the ignore option in order to clear my screen. In any case, nice try but no cigar.

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Can you please provide the name of this denomination or denominations that still refuse to accept that the earth isn't the cen