Did you once believe in Conspiracy Theories?

[Undesired Walrus]

Yes, it's another thread by everyones favourite Walrus (Or your undesired walrus).

I once was a believer in JFK and a casual observor of the Moon 'Hoax'. I think it all ended at 16/17, as it will for most of the truthers today.

I want to know whether most of you felt what I did when you were educated on the issue. I remember most of all disappointment, and rebellion. But my rebellion was only emotional, a sort of 'But it must have been!' way.

It was a BBC documentary that got me off JFK, and I just remember feeling very unsatisfied, as the alternative was very boring and pointless.

This is the latest in my 'Why do people believe Conspiracy Theories' series.

[Unsecured Coins]

I'd say the only thing I don't really have enough information on is JFK. I really don't know what to think about that.

[e^n]

I was a big fan (still am really) of Bill Hicks, and of course 'everyone knows' that JFK was a conspiracy. Once I started really reading into it though and understanding the leaps in logic required I quickly changed my mind.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

None of the choices apply directly to me, but in junior highschool and early highschool I certainly had more favorable opinions on the ideas of the Illuminati, etc

[Dave Rogers]

To be honest, 9-11 is the only one I've seriously considered, and after actually looking at the evidence I'm rather embarrassed about having even considered it. I've looked at the evidence for JFK and I don't buy it for a moment. Pearl Harbor doesn't even begin to formulate a plausible hypothesis, Apollo hoax likewise, and centuries of Bavarian Illuminati controlling the world just seems like a bad piece of fiction. I'm sure I must have some non-evidence-based beliefs, but they aren't in conspiracy theories and never have been.

Dave

ETA: I'm too old for Sonic the Hedgehog to have lived under my stairs. Andy Pandy, now...

[Brainster]

I was definitely a JFK-conspiracy believer in my younger years; thought that Nixon was behind it and found confirmation with some obvious CT-thought patterns. Yes, this grainy photo of a bum looks exactly like E. Howard Hunt. And of course Nixon chose Ford for his replacement vice president; Ford was on the Warren Commission and helped to cover up the inside job!

I wouldn't say I was diligent about researching it, though; it was just something I believed without putting a lot of effort into it. Now of course, I recognize my folly.

[peteweaver]

Used to believe in conspiracy theories, but then again I once believed in Father Christmas, well, till I pulled his beard off in a toy shop...

[Par]

In answer to the original question: Yes, I did once believe in conspiracy theories – from the ages of around eleven to fifteen.

I wasn’t passionate about any of them. I merely came to believe them somewhat casually due to being utterly unaware of how to think critically or how science worked or why. A desire for the excitement of extraordinary explanations also played a part and I was further indirectly encouraged my also less-than-critical mother who – while not a conspiracy theorist per se – is to this day still prone to unnecessarily conspiratorial explanations.

From what I can remember, I was somewhat credulous of the “face on Mars” thing, a spectrum of cryptozoology, various UFO and black helicopter crap, weird spiritual (but not religious) claims, nonsense about the pyramids and a passing interest in the moon hoax business. Whether or not I truly believed any of them, however, is a different matter. None of them were overtly political, or at least not politically held; although, at the time, I approached practically all political issues from the default position of “Britain, America and their racism are the cause of everything that is wrong with the world and everything in the third world is noble and organic and pure and spiritual”.

I was still somewhat prone to flights of irrationality until relatively recently – around four of five years ago. At that point I started to take an interest in analytic philosophy which in turn led me to critical thinking, logic, science and to more broadly explore the thoughts of a number of rationalists I already respected due to their writings espousing atheism.

My desire to believe conspiracy theories dissipated along with my feelings of rebellion and youthful angst, or at least when I realised that those feeling had been misdirected.

One positive thing about my soirée with the fantastical is that I can still remember, to some degree at least, how I thought and how I would feel and behave when faced with rational explanations that contradicted my beliefs; it helps me to understand – if not sympathise with – some of our resident crackpots (namely the apparently adolescent contingent).

[Undesired Walrus]

I was definitely a JFK-conspiracy believer in my younger years; thought that Nixon was behind it and found confirmation with some obvious CT-thought patterns. Yes, this grainy photo of a bum looks exactly like E. Howard Hunt.

huh?

[Reality Believer]

There are so many more options. I think that big Pharma is out to fleece the populace by bribing doctors to over prescribe / unnecessarily prescribe medications.

[MikeW]

huh?
Read up on "The Three Tramps (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm)".

[MarcoPolo]

Am I the only one that was duped by the <insert favorite religion> conspiracy theory for several of my younger years? I broke free Christianity (Catholic, Christian, Lutheran, and a few others. My parents couldn't decide which one was right) of that one about 10 years ago.

[Undesired Walrus]

Read up on "The Three Tramps (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/3tramps.htm)".

Is the American word for tramp a 'bum'?

Ha.

[Par]

Is the American word for tramp a 'bum'?



You know, some British people feign ignorance of all things American in order to make ole’ Blighty and its culture appear more aloof and independent than they really are. (They’d likely refer to Dr. Pepper as “fizzy Benylin”.) But you wouldn’t know anything about that, would you?!

[dudalb]

Am I the only one that was duped by the <insert favorite religion> conspiracy theory for several of my younger years? I broke free Christianity (Catholic, Christian, Lutheran, and a few others. My parents couldn't decide which one was right) of that one about 10 years ago.

Religion might be nonsense, but is does not fit the defination of Conspiracy Theory.
For a while I bought into the JFK Conspiracy crap,but in my defense I always tended toward the more plausible ones: The Mafia because of Bobby Kennedy going after them as AG,or Cuba in retaliation for the attempst on Castro. But I have abandoned even those.

[stilicho]

None of the choices apply directly to me, but in junior highschool and early highschool I certainly had more favorable opinions on the ideas of the Illuminati, etc
Yeah, loved reading Robert Anton Wilson, etc. Sort of like a Bavarian alternative to Lord Of The Rings--Tolkien was popular in my junior high--so picking out R.A.W. was a way to be different, I think.

[maxpower1227]

Sadly, I used to give some credence to all of them: JFK, Waco, OK City, 9/11, Pearl Harbor, the CFR/Bilderbergers/Trilat, the Clinton body count... you name it. Once I saw the PM piece on the Pentagon CT I started to come around. Other debunking sites pushed me further toward the edge of reason. By the time I found out about the Moon Hoax I couldn't believe I bought any of this garbage.

[Billdave2]

I must admit that I had my doubts about JFK when I was in my pre-teen years. I also really wanted to believe in bigfoot, the loch ness monster and the whole cryptozoology thing. But then I got older and realized that there was just no way on JFK. I still wish cryptozoology was real, but know that it is pure woo.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Yeah, loved reading Robert Anton Wilson, etc. Sort of like a Bavarian alternative to Lord Of The Rings--Tolkien was popular in my junior high--so picking out R.A.W. was a way to be different, I think.
Okay, I can't say I read The Illuminatus Trilogy as anything but humorous fiction. Was really just using the name Illuminati as a way to describe the general hidden world gov't idea more than anything. :)

[CptColumbo]

I once collected them, because I thought they were interesting. However, I never fully believed in them.

[EventHorizon]

I once believed in the JFK conspiracy theory; I had studied it from the age of a about 12 to....well, I've read Bugliosi's book so I guess you could say I still study it. I even wrote a history term paper about it and it was at this time I started to doubt it. In fact I considered completely doing a 180 and changing my thesis to change the paper from a pro to anti-conspiracy paper. I didn't really have time to change it all though (and I was a lazy bastard in high school) so I didn't do it. But anyway, the more and more I studied it the more and more convinced I became that Oswald did it. In fact, I would say I am 100% sure that Oswald did it. Quite a change from when I was younger.

[Disbelief]

In a past life I used to believe in conspiracies, but I have progressed beyond that in this one.

[T.A.M.]

I didnt vote, as there was no "yes, when I was in grade 2" was not an option in the poll.

TAM:)

[ryanebelhar]

Used to believe in JFK until recently. When I was in middle school I was convinced that Area 51 housed the aliens that crashed at Roswell.

[Shrinker]

I want to say yes, but there's no option for my stuff. There should have been an 'other'.

[Btodd]

I was a big fan (still am really) of Bill Hicks, and of course 'everyone knows' that JFK was a conspiracy. Once I started really reading into it though and understanding the leaps in logic required I quickly changed my mind.

Me too. I was huge fan of Bill Hicks, and since all I had ever heard about JFK were the conspiracy points, and I was in my early twenties, I think I believed it in the young, ignorant and rebellious sense.

I went back and watched some old video of him recently, and cringed in quite a few parts. He's still my all-time favorite standup, but if he had lived long enough to witness 9/11, I think he would have been a Twoofer (although he would have been much older, so maybe he would have grown out of it). He was convinced of a JFK conspiracy, and that the government 'shot fire' into the compound in Waco, murdering all of those inside. Hell, he might have LED the 9/11 Twoof movement. He was from Austin, so he and Alex Jones would have been tight!:D

Having delved into the 9/11 conspiracy deeply, I now know how such fabrications thrive, and I would imagine that if I studied the JFK thing intently, I would see the same patterns of quote mining, ignoring facts, and appeals to our mistrust of authority.

[contra]

Man, I used to be such a conspiracy theorist when I was in my early teens.
Moon hoax, hiding UFO's, NWO, JFK...

Actually the turning point was the 9/11 conspiracy theory.
I remember looking at sites about it a few months later, where they went on about how the dust expanding out from the WTC after they fall should have been at over 1000 degrees if it was obeying gas laws. I remember emailing them telling them their error that none of what they were saying was really true; and that they should correct it.

3 days later the site mysteriously went down, and then eventually redirected to the homeland security homepage. Thats right, the owner of the site, instead of being shown wrong, decided to imply a conspiracy that they were taken down without ever saying that.

At that point they lost all credability, so I decided to look into the ones I thought were true, and found out I had been fed lies.

Now I'm 22 and look back on those days and see what I fool I was for only looking at one side and not questioning anything.

[Vincent Vega]

Thermite = Magic Bullet = waving flag (or no stars).

I became familiar with the pseudo science (better known as *****) involved in conspiracy theory 'evidence' with the Moon Landing Hoax early on. I saw the same techniques used in the CT analysis of the JFK assassination. So when the "No plane hit the Pentagon" crowd started up, I knew we were dealing with the same type of kooks.

That said I was totally into the Bermuda triangle, UFOs, Bigfoot, and the Loch Ness Monster when I was a wee lad. The world has seemed so much smaller since.

[Chedda]

JFK for a short while. Damn you Oliver Stone!

[OldTigerCub]

I have to admit I gave some credibility to a conspiracy in the JFK assassination. There seemed to be enough doubt about the way the autopsy was handled, raised mostly by Dr. Cyril Wecht, a well respected pathologist. That and the eyewitness accounts that seemed to indicate the possibility of a shooter in the area behind the "grassy knoll".
The fact that it happenned so long ago though, even if a conspiracy was uncovered, it would make little difference today. It made reading about a possible conspiracy interesting reading to me, but little more.

[SYLVESTER1592]

My two cents...

I bought the 911 conspiracy and JFK, but then again I also trust what I see in the news. I tend to buy into the arguments that convince me first and become critical after that. It's very hard to change your point of view, especially when there is a limited amount of information (in Europe at least) and a massive propaganda bombardment trying to convince you of the conspiracy. The media doesn't help either, since a conspiracy is a much more juicy story. The question whether it's true or not is irrelevant in that perspective and the responsibility for finding or presenting the truth is brushed off by the mainstream media.

It's really the more critical minds of others, their patience and willingness to explain the evidence that helped me check and made me see the flaws in the conspiracy. I like to think I have become more critical, but I wouldn't dare to say I could not be fooled again. I was basically angry after finding out it was all a big lie. The anger was directed at the people trying to push the lie and at myself for buying into it. I felt sorry for others that still believed it was true and I guess it made me less tolerant for the suggestive tone, stubborn propaganda and closed minded supporters of the CT's.

I still feel sorry for others that still believe in these CT's but I'm not angry anymore. I'm more weary of the hardcore supporters spewing the same arguments over and over again even after they have been told (and have understood) that their interpretation of the facts is incorrect. Like dealing with badly behaving, ill mannered 6 year-olds insisting that their imaginary world is real.

I hate to think that I may have been just as annoying. I still hope to find someone who is genuinely convinced that he/she "does not know the truth" and wants to find out what is true and what isn't. Someone who can be convinced to shift their point of view based on evidence. I probably shouldn't hold my breath...

SYL :)

[LastChild]

I once believe UBL was behind 9/11 and Saddam Hussein had WMD's.

But hey... I was young.

[CptColumbo]

I used to really follow the Jack the Ripper theories. Lost interest after the 100th anniversary, and saw there were simpler solutions.

[NikZeta302]

When I was 12 I believed in the moon hoax junk, 15 I thought the government LIHOPed 9/11, now I see it as all junk.

[eeyore1954]

I believed Chariots of Fire after i watched it (movie from the mid 70's about aliens coming to earth a long time ago). i still like to believe in aliens but doubt if any ever visited earth.

[CptColumbo]

I believed Chariots of Fire after i watched it (movie from the mid 70's about aliens coming to earth a long time ago). i still like to believe in aliens but doubt if any ever visited earth.I think (hope) you've mixed up the title. Are you thinking of Chariots of the Gods? Otherwise, a movie about early Olympians being attacked by aliens sounds pretty kicka$$.

[Reality Believer]

I believed Chariots of Fire after i watched it (movie from the mid 70's about aliens coming to earth a long time ago). i still like to believe in aliens but doubt if any ever visited earth.
You mean "Chariots of the Gods". "Chariots of Fire" was a bunch of pasty white dudes running around in their underwear.

Edit: CaptColumbo beat me to it!

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I don't know if I ever had a strong belief in a conspiracy theory, per se, but there were a number of fringe beliefs that I had at least passing interest in: UFOs (Roswell, Area 51), ghosts, etc. Unsolved Mysteries was, I think, one of my favorite shows as a kid. ;)

I remember looking at "evidence" for the multiple gunmen variation of the JFK assassination CT: a grainy, zoomed-in, color-enhanced shot of the Grassy Knoll, which supposedly showed a man in a police officer's uniform and a wisp of smoke, which would have been from the gun he had just fired. I remember having a feeling more along the lines of, "Huh... Interesting," rather than confirmation or validation.

Still, on rare occasions, I'll try to look up photos or videos of alleged ghosts or UFOs and aliens, just to creep myself out. :)

[BenBurch]

I believe that George W. Bush, or somebody who was looking out for his interests, conspired with members of the Supreme Court to prevent the counting of legal ballots in the state of Florida in December 2000. :eye-poppi

[Totovader]

Used to believe in JFK- and maybe aliens... but when I started actually looking into it, I was pretty disappointed: "What? That's boring..."

[snagswolf]

I used to believe there was a conspiracy with JFK. I never really bought in any one specific theory, but I just couldn't believe that a single bullet could cause that much damage and still be in the intact condition it was it.

But after watching the Discovery Channel documentary where they recreated the shot, and their bullets pretty much matched the 'magic bullets' trajectory and condition, my last doubts faded away.

I'm a late comer to the Vince Foster case, but any time you have a former lead prosecutor in a case claim that there's a coverup, there seems to be something wrong.

[eeyore1954]

You mean "Chariots of the Gods". "Chariots of Fire" was a bunch of pasty white dudes running around in their underwear.

Edit: CaptColumbo beat me to it!You are correct and the funny thing is while i was typing it i wanted to make sure I didn't type the wrong name and did anyway

[Crazy Chainsaw]

I have to admit I entertained an interest in the 9/11/conspiracy, theories until about 30 seconds into talking personally with Dr. Steven E. Jones. That was all it took to bring me back to sanity.

[eeyore1954]

What about flight 800? Although I was never convinced about the missile theory at least it seemed believable to me .

[Gazpacho]

I was open to JFK conspiracy theories until, not long ago, I heard a JFK theorist say "There are just too many unanswered questions."

No thanks. A washed-up communist killing an anti-communist president to make his mark on history is enough for me.

[OldTigerCub]

I used to believe there was a conspiracy with JFK. I never really bought in any one specific theory, but I just couldn't believe that a single bullet could cause that much damage and still be in the intact condition it was it.

But after watching the Discovery Channel documentary where they recreated the shot, and their bullets pretty much matched the 'magic bullets' trajectory and condition, my last doubts faded away.

I'm a late comer to the Vince Foster case, but any time you have a former lead prosecutor in a case claim that there's a coverup, there seems to be something wrong.

I was open to JFK conspiracy theories until, not long ago, I heard a JFK theorist say "There are just too many unanswered questions."

No thanks. A washed-up communist killing an anti-communist president to make his mark on history is enough for me.

Welcome to the forum, Gazpacho and snagswolf. Both of your posts echo a lot of the evidence that convinced me that Lee Harvey could very well have pulled off just what he did. And all by himself. Motive, opportunity and means all fall into place.

[Kiosk]

JFK is the only one I ever bought into. It's odd - you only ever seem to hear the conspiracy side of things, so I kind of grew up just assuming, as others have said, that "everyone knew" it was a conspiracy. Even Woody Allen, in his great 60s stand-up routines, had a JFK crack (albeit the one lame joke in his whole set) - he said a friend of his was "busy working on a non-fiction version of the Warren Report." I think the last time I read any of that stuff, LBJ was the one being fingered.

I only let that vague credulity fall into disuse once I'd become something of a CT collector, and started to recognise the smell. To be honest, it doesn't really bother me anyway - even if he'd been shot from 15 angles by LBJ, Castro, Nixon, Kruschev, the KKK, the Communists, George Bush's grandfather, Paul McCartney, NWO Kitty and TEH JEWS, what does it matter now? That said, it's still the only major CT where, if it turned out to be true, I would not drop my cup of tea in amazement.

[Gravy]

A good friend of mine grew up with and remained friends with Jim Garrison, the New Orleans DA who tried the only JFK assassination case (Costner played him in the movie "JFK").

I wasn't a JFK conspiracy believer, but neither did I know much about it. I became intrigued about 20 years ago when my friend recommended Garrison's book "On the Trail of the Assassins." There was much in it that seemed very suspicious, such as important characters dying suddenly just days after Garrison announced his investigation. I thought, "Wow, there's a lot more to this JFK thing than I knew."

Since the book was written by Garrison, who was known as a grandstanding publicity-seeker, I thought I'd better read more. Over the next few years I read a lot more, decided that Garrison was full of crap, and learned things that my friend hadn't told me, such as Garrison's history of unsuccessful, vindictive prosecutions and his sometimes disabling psychiatric problems. (Sadly, my friend said Garrison became increasingly paranoid as he got older, although he held a Circuit Court judgeship until he died.)

That's as close as I've come to believing one of the popular conspiracy theories.

[Bell]

Yes, it's another thread by everyones favourite Walrus (Or your undesired walrus).

I once was a believer in JFK and a casual observor of the Moon 'Hoax'. I think it all ended at 16/17, as it will for most of the truthers today.

I want to know whether most of you felt what I did when you were educated on the issue. I remember most of all disappointment, and rebellion. But my rebellion was only emotional, a sort of 'But it must have been!' way.

It was a BBC documentary that got me off JFK, and I just remember feeling very unsatisfied, as the alternative was very boring and pointless.

This is the latest in my 'Why do people believe Conspiracy Theories' series.

Probably the same BBC documentary did it for me. After seeing it proved there was no need for a magic bullet, and Oswald could indeed have made the shot. It angered me at first, because it could not be debunked. But allready being introduced to the world of 9/11 denial (and knowing how absurd it all is) I realised how CTs work, and that the JFK one would be no different.

[Bell]

What about flight 800? Although I was never convinced about the missile theory at least it seemed believable to me .

Could also have to do because those alternative theories got a lot of media coverage. And not to forget the NTSB holding a press briefing explaining what happened to TWA800, including a part -provided by the CIA- about the speed of sound (ie people saw the firey trail going up for a few seconds, and then suddenly heard the explosion... missle!!).

[gumboot]

I honestly don't even remember ever been exposed to a conspiracy theory until I was in my early 20's. I was aware, in a vague sort of way, that they existed, but I knew nothing of details.

I also don't remember ever believing in Santa or the tooth fairy or any of the usual children's fare.

I was raised a Christian, initially. At the age of eight I decided it was time to see what this Bible thing was all about, and after reading that book from cover to cover (it took some time) I rejected religion in all its many forms.

Since then the only things I've really actually "believed in" is the things I consider the founding values of my culture - "freedom", "the rule of law", and all that sort of stuff.

I've always felt, since a young age, that things are rather very simple. I don't know where that idea comes from, but whenever I look at anything, once I get my head around it, it just seems straight forward. The one thing all those "beliefs" - be they religion or conspiracy theories or superstition - have in common is they unnecessarily complicate things. Whenever I'm presented with a complicated interpretation of events I instinctively respond "no, there's got to be a simpler explanation than that". Thus far I've never been wrong on that count.

-Gumboot

[gumboot]

Could also have to do because those alternative theories got a lot of media coverage. And not to forget the NTSB holding a press briefing explaining what happened to TWA800, including a part -provided by the CIA- about the speed of sound (ie people saw the firey trail going up for a few seconds, and then suddenly heard the explosion... missle!!).


Let's not forget that for quite some time the FBI also believed the missile theory had legs.

-Gumboot

[NeoRicen]

Well when I saw JFK I kinda believed, didn't think much of it. But when I did finally actually decide to look into it I realized I was wrong and that's that I suppose.

[funk de fino]

You mean "Chariots of the Gods". "Chariots of Fire" was a bunch of pasty white dudes running around in their underwear.

Edit: CaptColumbo beat me to it!

This one made me chuckle. Eric Liddle was a Scot which is sometimes like being classed as an alien in the UK

Not for long though hopefully, roll on independance

[Dave Rogers]

Let's not forget that for quite some time the FBI also believed the missile theory had legs.

That's nothing, apparently one of our Stundie candidates thought WTC2 had legs!

Dave

[Obviousman]

I am always open to a conspiracy theory - if there is evidence to support such a belief. I might also have a belief in a theory without evidence (because it suits my mindset) but I have to be clear that I have absolutely no evidence for those theories, and they are merely unsupported beliefs.

[Obviousman]

That's nothing, apparently one of our Stundie candidates thought WTC2 had legs!

Dave

Clams got legs! Clams got legs!

(Now we have to kill him...)*


* From a BC comic. If you don't understand, don't bother - the moment would be lost.

[snagswolf]

I think what sets most of us here apart from the truthers is that while we may have believed in conspiracies at one time, when we were presented with the evidence that proved them wrong, we abandoned them.

[firecoins]

Used to believe in JFK until recently. When I was in middle school I was convinced that Area 51 housed the aliens that crashed at Roswell.
There were never any aliens at area 51. The aliens were stored at L Ron Hubbard's house.

[snagswolf]

Did you know Al Gore was born nine months after the Roswell Incident?

It's true.

And it would explain a lot. ;)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

JFK for a short while. Damn you Oliver Stone!

Mee too. I saw the film when I was around 14 and it convinced me. Not that I was ever very invested in it. I disgarded it the moment I heard the counter arguments.

[BenBurch]

What about flight 800? Although I was never convinced about the missile theory at least it seemed believable to me .

I'm the crank who made them at least consider meteorite and space debris as an causative agent. :D

[Drudgewire]

Oh did I ever. :o

[timhau]

JFK is the only one I ever bought into. It's odd - you only ever seem to hear the conspiracy side of things, so I kind of grew up just assuming, as others have said, that "everyone knew" it was a conspiracy.

Same as me, then. Up until the night (it was a 40-somethingth anniversary of the assassination) I happened to listen to a call-in show with a Finnish radio/TV personality who claims to have cracked the case. Listening to it, I quickly realized that the guy is nuts, and that his solution includes just about everyone who was in the state of Texas that day except for JFK, Jackie, and Lee Harvey Oswald. A little bit later, I saw Posner's Case Closed mentioned someplace, got hold of it and read it. It's actually amazing how much of all that "But everyone knows that ...!" stuff is false.

[Coffee]

There are so many more options. I think that big Pharma is out to fleece the populace by bribing doctors to over prescribe / unnecessarily prescribe medications.

I work in the health care industry. I've seen some things that make me think there's something to what you're saying. Conspiracy? Maybe. Unethical? definitely.

[PhantomWolf]

Nope, they have never really appealed to me. JFK was a passable movie, but on seeing it all I could think was, what a load of tripe, and that was before I bothered semi-studying the case. Being a space buff, the Apollo Hoax has been a joke since I first knew about it (Watching the imfamous Fox programme and spent most of it feeling like throwing things at the TV because I could explain the issues based on my basic knowledge of the time.) Finally having watched the events of 9/11 live as they happened (from just before the second impact) I never considered it possible that it was anything other that what it looked like, a deliberate terrorist attack, since then and having studied it a lot more, I am totally convinced that it happened as advertised.

[Dr Harry Rein]

Same as me, then. Up until the night (it was a 40-somethingth anniversary of the assassination) I happened to listen to a call-in show with a Finnish radio/TV personality who claims to have cracked the case. Listening to it, I quickly realized that the guy is nuts, and that his solution includes just about everyone who was in the state of Texas that day except for JFK, Jackie, and Lee Harvey Oswald. A little bit later, I saw Posner's Case Closed mentioned someplace, got hold of it and read it. It's actually amazing how much of all that "But everyone knows that ...!" stuff is false.

I also believed in JFK assasination conspiracies when I was younger, but probably without much conviction. I read a book called Best Evidence, which put forward the idea that Kennedy's body had been surgically altered somehow prior to the autopsy to make it look like all the shots came from the back. However, the author was never really able to establish when, by whom, and how this alteration took place, since the body was never really left alone. In the end, the author came up with this incredibly complicated scenario in which the coffin carrying Kennedy's body was switched with a body bag somehow, just like the old shell game. Just didn't make a lot of sense.

Then, I read Posner's Case Closed. What a breath of fresh air of common sense!!

[timhau]

I read a book called Best Evidence, which put forward the idea that Kennedy's body had been surgically altered somehow prior to the autopsy to make it look like all the shots came from the back. However, the author was never really able to establish when, by whom, and how this alteration took place, since the body was never really left alone. In the end, the author came up with this incredibly complicated scenario in which the coffin carrying Kennedy's body was switched with a body bag somehow, just like the old shell game. Just didn't make a lot of sense.

You know, that's what's bothered me about this JFK thing from way before the Posner book was even published. If there's a super-powerful 'they' who have all the power to falsify presidential autopsies and change JFK's daily schedules and whatnot, why the heck would they kill him in broad daylight using some incredibly complicated scheme where a million and one things could go wrong? Why not just slip him some poison with his evening tea, falsify the autopsy, and call it a brain aneurysm or something? Same result, nowhere near as many variables in the situation, and way fewer potential whistleblowers. And what's more, you could get away with no investigative commissions, because nobody even knows there was a murder.

[Stellafane]

For whatever reason, I was never a big believer in any conspiracy, not even as a kid. Maybe it's because I'm attracted to simple things (as befitting my simple mind), and conspiracies always seemed way more complicated than reality. Plus, almost every last one of them is incredibly pointless and stupid. You have to believe that given the choice of doing something that takes only one step or a million, people will chose the million every time.

[Corsair 115]

...Same result, nowhere near as many variables in the situation, and way fewer potential whistleblowers. And what's more, you could get away with no investigative commissions, because nobody even knows there was a murder.But you're neglecting the fact that the folks who commit such conspiracies are huge fans of Rube Goldberg. The more complex a plan, the more they like it!

[Fnord]

No, I knew "Conspiracy Theory" as a game before I found out that there are people who take this stuff seriously.

A bunch of us at the dorm got bored, so we invented a game. The rules are:

1) Pick any three news headlines at random.
2) Link them together in a conspiracy.
3) The one with the most defensible theory wins the round.

Later, we included almost any topic along with news headlines.

If only I'd had the foresight that Steve Jackson did when he came up with the card game called "Illuminati."

[Hawk one]

No, I knew "Conspiracy Theory" as a game before I found out that there are people who take this stuff seriously.

Yep, you know it's a game. You wouldn't at all dream about accusing atheists of declaring war on christians (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100807) when one single person shoots some Christian people, without even knowing whether or not that lone shooter is religious. Certainly you will wait until the facts are in (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3230788#post3230788) before making such a sweeping statement like that. Because you're not at all the kind of person who'd think up bizarre conspiracy theories, are you?

[Fnord]

Yep, you know it's a game. You wouldn't at all dream about accusing atheists of declaring war on christians (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100807) when one single person shoots some Christian people, without even knowing whether or not that lone shooter is religious. Certainly you will wait until the facts are in (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3230788#post3230788) before making such a sweeping statement like that. Because you're not at all the kind of person who'd think up bizarre conspiracy theories, are you?


I have not accused Atheists of declaring war on Christians. I posted...


It's now a shooting war, as both sides have opened fire.

LINK (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22174890/)

We're often ridiculed for being weak-minded victims. Now we'll be ridiculed for being gun-toting hypocrites.

Sorta reminds me of the time I threw someone through a plate-glass window after he and his buddies attacked me for bringing a Bible to school.

They left me alone after that, but used my act of self-defense as "evidence" for "Typical Christian Hypocrisy."


As for the facts, I did post after they were in. We in the Christian community have our own channels of communication outside the popular media. It seems that the shooter had discarded his Christian faith after all ...

Scrut, seems to me, from his words, that he had become an Ex Christian.


Originally Posted by the article you linked
Matthew Murray wrote on an Internet message board of how he hated Christians between attacks on a mission center and church on Sunday, according to Denver-area media reports.


A former roommate took this photo of Matthew Murray performing in a December 14, 2002, Christmas program.

1 of 2 "You Christians brought this on yourselves," Murray wrote at 11:03 a.m. on Sunday, CNN affiliate KUSA reported on its Web site.

"I'm coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. ...God, I can't wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don't care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you ... as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world," the KUSA report quoted from the final posting.

Thankfully, most people who discard their faith don't choose to go on a killing spree.


Thankfully, most people who discard their faith don't choose to go on a killing spree.

DR


So ... if one shoe fits an Atheist's foot, perhaps he should wear both.

Deal with it.

[SpitfireIX]

Like others, I once believed in some of the more plausible versions of JFK conspiracies, having only ever heard the conspiracist side. Then I came across a statement by Tom Clancy that Oswald could easily have made the shots, and that the conspiracy theories were all BS. That made me reconsider, but I didn't really study the issue seriously until I got involved with moon-hoax debunking in 2003.

My father (a now-retired secondary-school teacher of industrial education and social studies) used to tell me that FDR and his advisers knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time, but I never believed him because even from an early age, I knew a lot about the subject, and the LIHOP theories just didn't make any sense (an unsuccessful Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor would have worked just as well for the purported purpose; as would a Japanese attack on the Philippines). The last couple of times my dad's brought it up, I've called him on this and other points, and he's retreated to an I'm-just-asking-questions position.

[Skeptic Guy]

I think (hope) you've mixed up the title. Are you thinking of Chariots of the Gods? Otherwise, a movie about early Olympians being attacked by aliens sounds pretty kicka$$.

When I was young, which I no longer am, I believed in aliens (Chariot of the Gods), the Bermuda Triangle, and the JFK conspiracy...man was I an idjit.

[procrastinate maybe]

I used to believe in woo conspiracies when I was about 12-13 years old. Thankfully I grew the rest of my frontal lobe and left such nonsense with the faeries.

[danielk]

Does socialism count?

[GStan]

I've believed in a number of conspiracies over the years, but as I've continued to read objectively on both sides of issues, most of them are no more than fun for the imagination, and do not make any real world practical sense.

I have had alot of difficulty letting go of the JFK conspiracy, but I confess that I have not read nearly as much pro-Oswald material as I have pro-conspiracy. I plan to get around to it (but debunking 911 truthers has proven to be much more fun.) While I can't pinpoint why, I have a gut feeling that reading the above-referenced Buglosi book could convince me that it is probable that Owsald was the lone assassin, but will not completely remove the all of the smell that surrounds the case. I'll have to wait and see.

Additionally, while I haven't read anything about UFO/Alien stuff, I have personally observed what I interpreted to be UFOs on two separate occasions in the past 15 years. I plan to detail my observations on another thread soon to try to get an earthly explanation for what I witnessed.

For 9/11, I believed the conspiracy was plausible for about 1 hour last year as I watched Loose Change. Then I read the Loose Change Viewer Guide. Oh well, it was an interesting hour anyway.

Keep up the great work JREFers!:D

[Irony]

I have not accused Atheists of declaring war on Christians. I posted...

As for the facts, I did post after they were in. We in the Christian community have our own channels of communication outside the popular media. It seems that the shooter had discarded his Christian faith after all ...

So ... if one shoe fits an Atheist's foot, perhaps he should wear both.

Deal with it.

Methinks this may become the next "If I see a man on a plane with a gun, I'll kill him."

You posted before any story of his motives had hit the media. If you did have some other source you certainly didn't show it. Furthermore, your post clearly shows that you consider this to be some sort of side battle in a greater atheist assault on Christianity, when it's clear to everyone without a massive persecution complex that it was a lone nut acting on a personal grudge. Hence, you believe in a conspiracy theory.

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Does socialism count?
As it has been implemented or as stateless-socialism?

[danielk]

As it has been implemented or as stateless-socialism?
Certainly not stateless, but obviously not as implemented either. Because, you know, that was so totally not true socialism. That the experiment horribly failed once is by no means sufficient reason not to try again. :p

Anyway, more to the point, I think there are definitely some conspiracy undertones to socialist thinking. They are a bit more intelligent than your average twoofer, and generally don't pin it down on a group of people but an abstract concept, namely capitalism, but it's still very much a theory which poses without much justification a single cause as the root of all evil. The most glaring example is in my opinion the crackpot idea which constituted the ideological foundation of Eastern Germany: That Nazism was somehow a natural extension of capitalism, or the next step if you like. Pretty much the only evidence for this is that some big names in the industry supported Hitler, but you have to distort the social context and ignore large chunks of Nazi ideology to make it all fit, and even then it's a very weak idea. I think stuff like that is evidence of a conspiracy-happy mindset.

Well, I only brought it up because it's the closest I ever came to conspiracy theories, and to religion for that matter.

[Oliver]

I never believed in CT's - even if I was highly skeptical after
watching loose change. And I'm still skeptical about the JFK
incident. There are too much open questions for me to take
a side ... Maybe once all Data is published ...

[Undesired Walrus]

And I'm still skeptical about the JFK
incident. There are too much open questions for me to take
a side ... Maybe once all Data is published ...

What open questions would these be?

[Pardalis]

Not to mention that most (98%) of the information was released in the early 90's.

http://www.nsa.gov/jfk/

I guess Oliver will have to wait 'til 2017 for the rest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination#Sealing_of_assassina tion_records