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View Full Version : Reichstag Fire - Nazi plot?


Horace Wheeljack
15th November 2007, 01:46 PM
Hi,

The Reichstag Fire is mentioned a lot on this forum but i cant find a thread specifically about it so i thought i would start one. Before i looked into it i was under the impression that the Nazi's were probably involved but on examing the evidence it seems unlikely that this is the case.

Historians are fairly split on whether Van der Lubbe acted alone or it was a Nazi plot. The evidence presented by supporters of the Nazi plot theory is based largely on the testimony of Karl von Ernst, Hans Bernd Gisevius, Franz Haider and a memo from the Prussian police 6 hours before the fire that discussed the rounding up of Communists.

The problem with the evidence is that Karl von Ernst's testimony turned up after he died so there is no way of verifying it. Gisevius' testimony at Nuremberg implicates Goebbels as the chief plotter but for someone who was gathering evidence of Nazi crimes he has nothing other than this claim which doesnt corroborate with Ernst's or Haider's. Franz Haider's testimony, also at Nuremberg, is an anecdote where he claims that Goring claimed at a luncheon in 1942 that "the only one who really knows about the Reichstag is I, because i set it on fire" with that Goring is said to slap his thigh, Goering may or may not have said this but the slap on the thigh may even suggest he was joking if he said it all. The memo from the Prussian police also proves nothing, it doesnt mention the Reichstag fire and it's very possible that Hitler was going to attack the communists with the election less than two weeks away.

On the other hand, the evidence for Van der Lubbe acting alone is very strong. He is caught red-handed and confesses to being solely responsible. He claims this throughout the trial. The four men tried with Van der Lubbe are acquitted but Van der Lubbe is guillotined. At the trial no witnesses report anyone other than Van der Lubbe at the scene. The Reichstag officials who apprehend him claim no one else was present. The postal worker who enters and exits the building just prior to the fire witnesses nothing. It begs the question, if it was a Nazi plot to frame the Communists why didnt they make it look like a communist plot?

Other evidence that suggests Van der Lubbe acted alone is the evidence from Martin Sommerfeldt, Goring's press officer, who reports on Gorings plans to frame the communists after the fire.

Goebbels diary reveals his reaction to news of the fire, he records how he thought it was a prank call from Ernst Hanfstaengl who had been playing tricks on him all week (those crazy Nazi's!).

Rudolph Diels was head of the Prussian political police and he argued with Hitler after reporting to him that he believed Van der Lubbe acted alone, Diels claims Hitler ridiculed him and insisted that it must have been a Communist plot.

It's also hard to believe that corroborating testimony wouldnt have become available from the significant amount of people involved in such a plot (planners, aides, operatives).

I think on the evidence available the case for a Nazi plot is extremely weak.

I would appreciate any comments, information, criticisms anyone has of my quick analysis.

dudalb
15th November 2007, 01:51 PM
Although I am not passionate about it, I tend to the "The Nazis did not plot it,but they sure as hell used it as a excuse for what they would have done anyway" school.
If the Reichstag fire had not happened,the Nazis would have found another excuse.

Horace Wheeljack
15th November 2007, 02:00 PM
They definitely used it as an excuse. Thats not debatable. They imprisoned 4000 communists and Hitler was able to pass the Enabling Act which led to a one-party Nazi state. It was pure opportunism. I just dont think there's enough evidence to claim, like many people do, that the Nazi's carried out the fire themselves.

contra
15th November 2007, 02:04 PM
Not only do some claim the Nazi's caused the fire.... conspiracy theorists almost consider it historically accurate....

CptColumbo
15th November 2007, 02:05 PM
It's one of those events that we will never know all the facts about. I certainly wouldn't put it passed the Nazis to be involved, there just isn't sufficient evidence against them and enough evidence to rule out other possibilities

Horace Wheeljack
15th November 2007, 02:19 PM
You can never rule out other explanations but isnt the the best explanation with the evidence we do have that Van der Lubbe acted alone?

rcronk
16th November 2007, 10:55 AM
I have friends who believe in the Nazi conspiracy theory so I'd like to know the answer too. So it looks like there's not enough evidence either way to get a definitive answer, but Horace is asserting that the evidence leans toward no Nazi conspiracy but just opportunism. Does everyone else think that's a fair assessment? I want to get a feel for what to tell my CT friends without having to put in days of research sifting through what I'm sure would be biased information. Hey, I'm lazy. :)

Nick Terry
16th November 2007, 11:37 AM
The consensus today among historians of the Third Reich is that the Nazis did not set the Reichstag on fire themselves. Any controversy over the issue happened about 40+ years ago; and became quite embroiled, since East Bloc propaganda put out forged documents to "prove" Nazi complicity.

Richard Evans relegates the Nazi-Reichstag CT to a footnote in The Coming of the Third Reich. The main-text narrative is entirely based around the lone-arsonist explanation and describing Nazi opportunism.

Anyone trying to argue by analogy that the Reichstag fire 'proves' that gummints have a tendency to stage false-flag ops is resting their argument on quicksand.

rcronk
16th November 2007, 02:02 PM
Thanks Nick - excellent!

JCM
16th November 2007, 08:15 PM
Hi,
On the other hand, the evidence for Van der Lubbe acting alone is very strong. He is caught red-handed
Anyone have more information on exactly how he was caught red-handed? Wasn't he rolling on the ground naked or is that a myth?

bofors
17th November 2007, 12:07 AM
Anyone trying to argue by analogy that the Reichstag fire 'proves' that gummints have a tendency to stage false-flag ops is resting their argument on quicksand.

Good thing we have Operation Himmler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler

... and specifically the Gleiwitz incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

... to fall back on then.

Oliver
17th November 2007, 01:14 AM
I just dont think there's enough evidence to claim, like many people do, that the Nazi's carried out the fire themselves.


Exactly. There'S simply not enough evidence to claim that
it was a false flag - even if it really wouldn't be a surprise
either. And Historians agree on this fact that there isn't
any evidence blaming the Nazi's no matter how evil they
were.

The Reichstagsbrand was my personal reason to consider
Alex Jones as pretty inaccurate - to put it mildly.

gtc
17th November 2007, 02:08 AM
Good thing we have Operation Himmler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler

... and specifically the Gleiwitz incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

... to fall back on then.

Please explain how two false flag operations (stipulating for the moment that they were indeed false flag operations) conducted by one single fascist regime over 60 years ago proves that governments in general have a tendency to conduct false flag operations.

Nick Terry
17th November 2007, 02:39 AM
Good thing we have Operation Himmler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler

... and specifically the Gleiwitz incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

... to fall back on then.

Not much of a fallback to create any kind of analogy with 9/11. As if anyone ever believed that Polish troops had really raided a German radio station cross-border. Besides which, border clashes and raids are absolutely routine in history; very rarely do they provoke wars of their own accord.

The other gaping hole in twoofer logic implied in this 'fallback' position is that Gleiwitz happened within hours of an all-out German invasion. It's sort of why no one believes it was the real casus belli. It's also why 9/11 is not analogous to Gleiwitz.

Shame about the Reichstag fire, tho'. Sure must be hard on the poor twoofer dears that (a) there has been no Enabling Act passed in direct response to 9/11 and (b) they are relying on out-dated views last current when William Shirer published The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.... in 1960.

Oliver
17th November 2007, 10:55 AM
Is there any evidence for the Reichtagsfire yet from some dubious
Pro-False-Flag sources. I would like to see it...

Par
17th November 2007, 11:20 AM
Anyone trying to argue by analogy that the Reichstag fire 'proves' that gummints have a tendency to stage false-flag ops is resting their argument on quicksand.

Good thing we have Operation Himmler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Himmler

... and specifically the Gleiwitz incident: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

... to fall back on then.


An analogue of that argument is:

Charles Manson – a person – displayed a tendency to kill people. Therefore, Professor Stephen Hawking – being a person – has a tendency to kill people.

Oliver
17th November 2007, 03:49 PM
An analogue of that argument is:

Charles Manson – a person – displayed a tendency to kill people. Therefore, Professor Stephen Hawking – being a person – has a tendency to kill people.


That's basically correct - even if the Nazi's are a special kind
of group in contrast to other groups or governments...

Horace Wheeljack
18th November 2007, 03:31 AM
Anyone have more information on exactly how he was caught red-handed? Wasn't he rolling on the ground naked or is that a myth?

He was caught by a Reichstag official stripped from the waist up using his shirt as a fire lighter.