Man tasered to death in Canada

[Ryokan]

Robert Dziekanski, 40, was traveling to join his mother, who lives in British Columbia, when he ended up spending about 10 hours in the airport's arrivals area, The Canadian Press said.

The video shows Dziekanski, who had never flown before, becoming agitated. It then shows Mounties purportedly shocking Robert Dziekanski with a Taser device after confronting him. Dziekanski did not speak English.

Source, with video. (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/15/taser.death/index.html?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCText)

Longer video here. (http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2007/11/15/518353.html)

What a really, really sad story.

[Puppycow]

That's pretty heavy, Bro.

[MG1962]

That is truely sad. A lack of communication had to end like this. You can here the officers screaming for him to stay still - Obviously he had no idea. It would be interesting to see the coronors report as what exactly killed him

[kerikiwi]

It seems obvious that his problem was far beyond not speaking English, or 'becoming agitated', or there being a lack of communication. His behaviour was insane.
Why would someone in such a fragile mental state be allowed to get in such a situation?

[Ryokan]

It seems obvious that his problem was far beyond not speaking English, or 'becoming agitated', or there being a lack of communication. His behaviour was insane.
Why would someone in such a fragile mental state be allowed to get in such a situation?

What, huh? Did you see the movies? Did he seem to be a threat when they tasered him?

And be allowed? Should they have tasered him earlier?

[Matthew Best]

I don't see what there is to disagree with in kerikiwi's post. The situation shouldn't have been allowed to escalate that far. I don't see that kerikiwi is advocating tasering at any stage, let alone earlier than it actually happened.

[Ryokan]

I don't see what there is to disagree with in kerikiwi's post. The situation shouldn't have been allowed to escalate that far. I don't see that kerikiwi is advocating tasering at any stage, let alone earlier than it actually happened.

If I misinterpreted what kerikiwi said, then I'm sorry. But to me it looked like he put the blame on the guy who was tasered.

[Matthew Best]

Well, we'll have to wait for kerikiwi to weigh in, but I still don't see that he is blaming the victim. Who do you think is being held responsible in the following sentence:

Why would someone in such a fragile mental state be allowed to get in such a situation?

[fuelair]

Translated -at least the way I talk/think: If a person is not competant to handle the type of stress situation you will find in any normal airport (stress/crowds, cross/badly located information, insufficient information, etc) they should have someone who is traveling with them or they should not be making such a trip.

I seem to recall a very similar incident in the US about two months ago that ended similarly. Woman/flight/hold-over/inappropriat behavior, death. She should not have been on a flight unaccompanied either.

[TX50]

Isn't having to spend 10 hours in arrivals rather strange?

[Dancing David]

It seems obvious that his problem was far beyond not speaking English, or 'becoming agitated', or there being a lack of communication. His behaviour was insane.
Why would someone in such a fragile mental state be allowed to get in such a situation?

Freedom is freedom.

[BPSCG]

Okay, I really have no desire to watch someone getting electrocuted, so someone please tell me:
Had he stopped acting agitated, and they continued tasering him anyway? I thought one shot with a taser incapacitates just about anyone.
Did there appear to be enough security people around that they could have subdued him without tasering him?I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet a nickel that airport security people don't get the training that police do in handling disruptive people.

[Dancing David]

I don't see what there is to disagree with in kerikiwi's post. The situation shouldn't have been allowed to escalate that far. I don't see that kerikiwi is advocating tasering at any stage, let alone earlier than it actually happened.


People are free or they aren't

There is a slippery slope in the defintion of 'fragile mental state'.

Either we allow people freedom, including those with mental illnesses and the appearnce of mental illness, or we don't.

In a free society the bar is deliberately set high for what constitutes 'harm to self or others'.

Otherwise we get crazy stuff like family trying to hospitalize mom because they don't like the way she is spending her money. Or trying to hospitalize the kids because they don't like their choices.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.

[Cainkane1]

It may not have been the tasering. The same thing happened here in Georgia a few times and in all cases the subject was near death from something else. Mostly heart attacks caused by drugs or in poor helth in general.

[erlando]

What a really really sad story.

The problem as I see it is, that one of the officers is heard asking "Can I shoot him?" before they approach the guy. It's almost if they are predetermined to use force.

The problem gets worse when they further punish the guy for not complying (you should think that officers working in an international airport would be used to non-english speakers) by having three officers pinning him down - one with his knee on the neck of the poor man.

Judging by this video this is clearly an example of use of excessive force.

Maybe he should not have been put in that situation. But can you really tell how you would handle a situation you've never been in before. This was his first time flying. I could very well imagine how confusing and stressful that would be, especially when you've been waiting for 10 hours for your mother to pick you up.

Yes, he broke some stuff. But he was at no time a risk to the officers.

[erlando]

Okay, I really have no desire to watch someone getting electrocuted, so someone please tell me:
Had he stopped acting agitated, and they continued tasering him anyway? I thought one shot with a taser incapacitates just about anyone.
Did there appear to be enough security people around that they could have subdued him without tasering him?
I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet a nickel that airport security people don't get the training that police do in handling disruptive people.

1: He was tasered the first time when he was standing with his arms down his sides. Second time he is tasered he is laying down screaming in pain.

2. Four officers responded to the incident. I don't think they would have had a problem subduing him without resorting to the taser.

ETA: This was the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and not airport security.

[Dancing David]

Translated -at least the way I talk/think: If a person is not competant to handle the type of stress situation you will find in any normal airport (stress/crowds, cross/badly located information, insufficient information, etc) they should have someone who is traveling with them or they should not be making such a trip.

I seem to recall a very similar incident in the US about two months ago that ended similarly. Woman/flight/hold-over/inappropriat behavior, death. She should not have been on a flight unaccompanied either.

Since when?

People are people. There is no requirement that people should have a keeper or not.

Think of all the freedom that surrounds choices everyday. Are you going to give everyone a keeper who makes a choice? Or just the ones that are marked because they have a mental illness or the appearance of a mental illness?

Many people are killed who don't have to be because fools drive way over the speed limit.

Should they have a keeper?

Many people are killed by people who drink excessively and then get behind the wheel of a car.

Should they have a keeper?

People buy toxic household chemicals and then inadvertantly kill or damage themselves.

Should they have a keeper?

many people spend their money unwisely and borrow unwisely.

Should they have keepers?

Why should people with a mental illness or the appearance a mental illness , developmental disability be any differenet than anybody else.

Everyone has to meet the same criteria for competancy and freedom.

I'll tell you what, look up some info on menatl health treatment around the world and see what happens when people with a mental illness don't have freedom and treatment.

They get locked in jails, they get killed, they get abused. Many countries (including some very prominent world powers) abuse their mentally ill people, they lock them away in jail style settings, their families abandon them, they are thrown away.

All in the name of protecting them.

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

They could have wrestled him to the floor, but this, too has risks. The general idea is that it's less dangerous, for everyone involved, to Taser the suspect than it is to grapple with them. Police officers have been overpowered and disarmed while wresting with suspects. Almost everyone who is Tasered recovers quickly with no long term health problems. However, complications can arise in isolated cases, and suspects have died. It is a "less than lethal" weapon, like the baton or pepper spray (both of which have also caused isolated fatalities).

It's unfortunate that this person died, and I'm not defending the level of force used, just trying to explain the position of law enforcement. An inquest will be done, and I'm sure use of force guidelines will be reviewed.

[Vorticity]

My shallow understanding is that most law enforcement agencies have a stated policy that tasers should only be used when, in the absence of tasers, a gun would otherwise have been used.

Therefore, every time an officer uses a taser, it is an explicit claim that they would have been justified in using lethal force with their sidearm.

Does anybody think that these officers would have been justified in simply pulling out their pistols (assuming they had some) and shooting the guy?

[Matthew Best]

Maybe they would have got a bit further if they'd just got hold of a translator? It's an international airport - surely they must have one available who could be there within ten hours?

[wahrheit]

10 hours in the airport's arrivals area,

Does that mean that he was still inside the security area of arrivals, the part of the airport where only passengers can go that went through security check (at the departure airport)? If so, police would have known that he can not be armed with a weapon or anything.

[Bikewer]

This popped up on another board I subscribe to. There is some indication that the fellow had mental problems, and was running amok prior to the confrontation with police.

The use of the Taser is not as an alternative to shooting, though in some cases out-of-control individuals who might well have been shot have been successfully controlled with the Taser.
Most all the deaths associated with the device have been shown to be the result of Cocaine Intoxication Syndrome, which occurs when individuals high on coke engage in violent physical activity. After being subdued, they may simply die. This was well-described prior to the invention of the Taser.
Does not sound like this was involved here, but other things can go wrong as well, though more rarely. Generally, the device causes voluntary muscles to go into seizure. The pulse lasts for 5 seconds, and can be repeated if necessary.
Normally, with a good "hit", the subject just seizes up and falls over, wherupon he can be cuffed.
As soon as the pulse ceases, movement is again possible. We are encouraged to take advantage of the 5-second incapacitation to cuff the individual quickly, as repeated applications can be physically exhausting.
It will be interesting to see if the medical examiner determines a cause of death in this case.

[kerikiwi]

Freedom is freedom.

And this would include the freedom to face the consequences of your actions.
Whether or not the taser caused the death, and whether or not even a single use was justified, a person who is in such a condition that his/her insane behaviour threatens others should not be able to get in such a situation.
The limits to freedom are where the freedom of others is infringed.

[Molinaro]

I have no problem with him being tasered. Police should not be forced to manhandle someone when they have don't have to. Even if you don't speak english, having 4 cops stand in front of you -- saying something -- should be enough of a hint that you should put your hands behind your head and act submissive.

To those who didn't watch the video.. the guy picked up and smashed a computer. Then he grabbed a chair and heaved it.

The police had every right to expect violence, since he already resorted to violence.

[Bikewer]

Here's another consideration as to why police may currently be more inclined to zap a suspect rather than just grabbing and wrestling...HIV.
A rather large percentage of suspects are in the "Positive" category, and a "rasslin match" often involves a bit of bodily-fluid transfer.

Every copper I know carries some sort of antiseptic hand cleaner and rubber gloves as well.

[BPSCG]

Isn't having to spend 10 hours in arrivals rather strange?

To those who didn't watch the video.. the guy picked up and smashed a computer. Then he grabbed a chair and heaved it.From one who didn't want to watch the video, thank you.

The story doesn't explain why he was stuck for ten hours at the arrivals area. It strikes me that a lot of people would start smashing furniture under those circumstances, even if they did speak English. Think about the last time you "lost it." Did it take ten hours? Or did it just take three seconds when some @#$% cut you off and almost ran you off the road?

I'm inclined to think the RCMP dropped the ball here. In ten hours, you'd think someone could have figured out what language he was speaking and gotten a Pole to translate. This was Vancouver, BC, not Sioux Falls, South Dakota.

[BPSCG]

A rather large percentage of suspects are in the "Positive" category, and a "rasslin match" often involves a bit of bodily-fluid transfer.Evidence? Regarding the HIV-ness of "a rather large percentage of suspects"?

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

This was very big news in Poland...all the news channels had it as a top story.

Tragic, just tragic. So stupid and so preventable.

If anyone nearby had just happened to speak Polish.

[Corsair 115]

First, as a Canadian, let me say that American media is late to this story — the event in question happened a month ago. It's been in the headlines here several times since it occurred. It became a front-page, lead item again on Wednesday with the release of this video.

I suggest hitting Canadian news sites for info on this story. Start with this (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/14/bc-taservideo.html) most recent page at the CBC's web site. There are links on the right side of that page with more background and related material. Here's (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071116/taser_friday_071116/20071116?hub=Canada) the most recent article on CTV's web site. Again, there are background and related links on the right.

The CBC National News had a long, in-depth piece on the entire incident on Wednesay night's broadcast. You can view the report online here (http://www.cbc.ca/national/blog/video/crimejustice/a_deadly_landing.html). It runs twenty minutes.

(For Americans not familiar with Canadian network news, the CBC National News broadcast runs one hour, from 10-11 p.m. ET. It has about twenty or so minutes of coverage of the main news stories of the day; the remainder of the hour is filled with longer pieces, such as the one linked above, and with discussion and analysis panels, interviews, and so forth. CTV has its national news broadcast at 11 p.m. ET and it runs a half-hour.)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I wouldn't say the US media are "late" to this story because it's the same deal in Poland- it only became major news a few days ago and only now that the video has been released has everyone talking about it.

[JCM]

Talk about Dudley-do wrong.
http://www.stuffucrave.com/image/dudleybobble.jpg

[Corsair 115]

I wouldn't say the US media are "late" to this story because it's the same deal in Poland- it only became major news a few days ago and only now that the video has been released has everyone talking about it.It's been covered here since it happened last month. The release of the video just brought it back to the fore again.

In any case, I strongly suggest anyone interested in this story check out the link to the long CBC report I poster earlier.

[pvicente]

This was very big news in Poland...all the news channels had it as a top story.

Tragic, just tragic. So stupid and so preventable.

If anyone nearby had just happened to speak Polish.

I watched the video, and this looks more like a case of "If anyone had just tried to help him...", he was alone, he was clearly in distress and trying to get someone's attention but the police didn't even try to help him. They just walked in and zapped him, why?
I can think of 2 explanations for that:

1 - Someone in charge ordered the officers to get rid of him quickly, instead of helping him.

2 - The officers were sent in to solve the situation, but they decided to just zap him instead of making an effort, maybe because there was a football game on T.V.,or because it was almost time to get off duty, or because they were just feeling lazy that day.

Anyway heads must roll over this, the only question is which ones? The people in charge or the officers on the scene, or both?
More than a case of "police brutality" this is a case of "police laziness", banning tasers is not the answer, if an officer is sloppy and negligent with a taser he will be so with a baton or a gun, putting those responsible behind bars for a long,long time is.

[erlando]

I have no problem with him being tasered. Police should not be forced to manhandle someone when they have don't have to. Even if you don't speak english, having 4 cops stand in front of you -- saying something -- should be enough of a hint that you should put your hands behind your head and act submissive.

To those who didn't watch the video.. the guy picked up and smashed a computer. Then he grabbed a chair and heaved it.

The police had every right to expect violence, since he already resorted to violence.

So, you think it's perfectly reasonable to taser someone after using all of 24 seconds on non-violent conflict resolution? The officers cannot have been ignorant to the fact that the person they were facing was having great trouble understanding what they were saying.

I surely don't want to go to any country where you're in charge..

Watching the report from CBC just strengthens my impression that this is a horrible example of police-officers using unnecessary and excessive force. They killed an innocent man. They should be punished.

Also the failure of the Vancouver airport personnel to show some simple empathy to help either Robert or his mother is a disgrace. CEO Larry Berg should be ashamed of himself for "not feeling embarrassed".

[fuelair]

So, you think it's perfectly reasonable to taser someone after using all of 24 seconds on non-violent conflict resolution? The officers cannot have been ignorant to the fact that the person they were facing was having great trouble understanding what they were saying.

I surely don't want to go to any country where you're in charge..

Watching the report from CBC just strengthens my impression that this is a horrible example of police-officers using unnecessary and excessive force. They killed an innocent man. They should be punished.

Also the failure of the Vancouver airport personnel to show some simple empathy to help either Robert or his mother is a disgrace. CEO Larry Berg should be ashamed of himself for "not feeling embarrassed".

A) yes it was - that level of violence can easily escalate to human targets . The first rule for first-responders is protect yourself.

B) if you cannot behave in a functional manner, you are right -you don't want to be anywhere I am in charge.

C) I would not support any penalty for the officers in this specific situation.
In the US one I noted, a reprimand would be placed in their folders for not arranging things so the woman could not maneuver into a position such as caused her death. But nothing prior to that was actionable.

D) It is hard to be empathetic when you are responding to someone doing things any competant person would not do - unless they were a terrorist trying to draw attention away - and officers away - from an area so activity could occur un- or less noticed.


I do not, by the by, assume the airport authorities considered that - but any security people should or they do not belong in security.

[slingblade]

I figure the police simply have a new deadly weapon. I consider myself warned.

[qayak]

I figure the police simply have a new deadly weapon. I consider myself warned.

Tazers were allowed because they were touted as "safe weapons for dangerous criminals." What they have become is dangerous weapons for safe people.

This incident is despicable and along with the execution style killing of a 20 year old man in police custody in Houston, BC, goes a long way to destroying the credabilty of the RCMP. In that incident, the RCMP's own blood spatter expert testified that the incident could not have happened the way the police were trying to say it did. The officer was not being choked by the 20 year old, he was standing behind the victim with his gun pointed, point blank, at the back of the man's head. And, surprise, surprise, the video camera that was by law supposed to record the room wasn't.

In this airport case, it was only the video that prevented the police from getting away with this killing. And we have only the cameraman's insistance that the video be returned and his going public with the fact that it existed, to thank for the incident coming to our attention.

And YVR has a role to play in this. How can a man be in a secure area in the airport for 10 hours and no one ask him what he is doing there? How could he leave the secure area and then come back in without anyone noticing?

Also, it is an international airport with flights from every corner of the world and they couldn't find someone who spoke Polish?

[pvicente]

A) yes it was - that level of violence can easily escalate to human targets . The first rule for first-responders is protect yourself.
Yes the police should protect themselves, but they should at least try to their jobs with a minimum of effort and competence too.
Watch the video again, the officers just walked in, surrounded him and zapped him, anyone could see that the man was desperate and trying to get someone's attention but they didn't tried to help him, to communicate with him, nothing.
They just didn't want put more effort in it than the necessary to point the taser and press the trigger.
They were lazy and negligent, that should get you in trouble in any kind of job, worse than that, they killed someone with their incompetence and that should get them a long prison sentence.

[Checkmite]

Evidence? Regarding the HIV-ness of "a rather large percentage of suspects"?


I'm not sure what percentage of suspects are HIV positive; however, the point still stands, because it is standard procedure for just about everyone (probably even where you work, too - read those info boards) that all body fluids encountered should be treated as if they are contaminated with HIV, Hep B, and/or the worst thing you can think of.

[erlando]

A) yes it was - that level of violence can easily escalate to human targets . The first rule for first-responders is protect yourself.

B) if you cannot behave in a functional manner, you are right -you don't want to be anywhere I am in charge.

C) I would not support any penalty for the officers in this specific situation.
In the US one I noted, a reprimand would be placed in their folders for not arranging things so the woman could not maneuver into a position such as caused her death. But nothing prior to that was actionable.

D) It is hard to be empathetic when you are responding to someone doing things any competant person would not do - unless they were a terrorist trying to draw attention away - and officers away - from an area so activity could occur un- or less noticed.


I do not, by the by, assume the airport authorities considered that - but any security people should or they do not belong in security.

You disgust me.

[BPSCG]

...it is standard procedure for just about everyone (probably even where you work, too - read those info boards) that all body fluids encountered should be treated as if they are contaminated with HIV, Hep B, and/or the worst thing you can think of.Contaminated with Keith Olberman? :xtongue

[Dancing David]

And this would include the freedom to face the consequences of your actions.
Whether or not the taser caused the death, and whether or not even a single use was justified, a person who is in such a condition that his/her insane behaviour threatens others should not be able to get in such a situation.
The limits to freedom are where the freedom of others is infringed.

And what prior behaviors would indicate that this person was going to do that? Or do you just presume that a person who appears mentally ill or is mentally is incapable.

Just presuming is a mistake, how do you know that this person was a threat prior to acts they take that indicate a threat?

[Fitter]

Anyway heads must roll over this,

I hope you don't mind if we wait to hear from the 4 inquests into the matter.

[kerikiwi]

And what prior behaviors would indicate that this person was going to do that? Or do you just presume that a person who appears mentally ill or is mentally is incapable.

Just presuming is a mistake, how do you know that this person was a threat prior to acts they take that indicate a threat?

Neither you nor I know about any prior behaviours, but I would hazard a guess that a 40 year old man, with no English, travelling alone to Canada to live with his mother, has something going on in his life. It is highly unlikely that a previously healthy person would, without any prior symptons, exhibit such insane behaviour.
And yes, a person who is mentally ill is incapable of functioning in a fully independent healthy way. Else s/he could not be described as mentally ill.

I didn't 'just presume' anything, any more than you did, when you wrote about people's freedom to make choices.
I repeat, the limits to freedom are where the freedom of others is infringed.

[Stout]

Being a cop has got to be one tough job. Your "customers" hate you, the general public holds you in contempt, until they need you then suddenly you're their best friend, every shift you're exposed to the dregs of society and, as mentioned above, even a relatively minor scuffle can result in serious injury.

Having said that though, this is one instance where the police overreacted and the spin that the "higher ups" seem to be putting on here doesn't help public confidence in the RCMP either.

Had they just demanded his passport, even through the use of mime in case the tazeree didn't understand the word passport, the RCMP could quickly have determined what language he was speaking.

The reason the man was in the secure area for 10 hours is...His mother told him to meet her by the baggage carousels, not knowing that they were in a secure area where she wouldn't have access to. So he waited, and waited...Did he have and Canadian money to buy anything, even water, out of a vending machine? were there even any vending machines in the secure area ( even though I've been through that area several times, I can't say I've noticed any vending machines )

So if you factor the possibility of thirst and hunger with the fact that he was a smoker and was probably going through withdrawal, add in his lack of ability to communicate, plus his worry about the apparent no show of his mother....you can see how this guy might be a little stressed here.

Yea..I know smashing office furniture isn't the best way to cope with frustration and no doubt the police were thinking they were about to confront a violent offender, but still. zapping him after only being on the scene for 24 seconds....Score one point for the NWO is out to control you side.

[erlando]

Neither you nor I know about any prior behaviours, but I would hazard a guess that a 40 year old man, with no English, travelling alone to Canada to live with his mother, has something going on in his life. It is highly unlikely that a previously healthy person would, without any prior symptons, exhibit such insane behaviour.


So you find it unusual that a 40 year old from eastern Europe doesn't speak English? Let me tell you that it's not unusual for even young people to not be able to speak any English at all. I can name several countries in Europe where people as young as 20 years old cannot speak English.

And for the "going to live with his mother" part. Is it really that unusual that a person would be staying with family when immigrating to a new country? It's called "helping", you know.

And even if he wasn't completely healthy is that reason enough for police officers to taser him after 24 seconds? I don't think so.

[qayak]

Being a cop has got to be one tough job. Your "customers" hate you, the general public holds you in contempt, until they need you then suddenly you're their best friend, every shift you're exposed to the dregs of society and, as mentioned above, even a relatively minor scuffle can result in serious injury.

I disagree. Many people may dislike the police but I think the general public holds them in high regard until they do something like this. These people know what they are up against when they sign on for the job, they know they will be dealing, mainly, with a certain element of society.

I don't think being a cop is harder than any of a number of other jobs. I am expected to be perfect in my job. Any mistake I make, I pay for. When there is a problem, the onus is on me to correct it. When I screw up, I pay. My superiors will not protect me from a screw up, they will expect me to take full responsibility.

I don't think police get too little leeway for their mistakes, they get too much. The general public is disgusted after seeing the video and are only asking that the police get held to a reasonable standard which they themselves are held to everyday.

[qayak]

Neither you nor I know about any prior behaviours, but I would hazard a guess that a 40 year old man, with no English, travelling alone to Canada to live with his mother, has something going on in his life.

He was being "sponsored" by his mother which means she is responsible for him. She has to provide everything for him so he is not a burden on Canadian society. It would make sense that he live with her until he gains employment and gets his feet under him.

[shuize]

One need not speak a word of English to know not to flip out in a secure area, least of all an airport. I'm having a hard time generating much sympathy for someone who doesn't grasp that relatively simple concept and then dies as a result of not complying with the police.

[Dancing David]

Neither you nor I know about any prior behaviours, but I would hazard a guess that a 40 year old man, with no English, travelling alone to Canada to live with his mother, has something going on in his life. It is highly unlikely that a previously healthy person would, without any prior symptons, exhibit such insane behaviour.
And yes, a person who is mentally ill is incapable of functioning in a fully independent healthy way. Else s/he could not be described as mentally ill.

Thank you, I function quite well when I am depressed. You perhaps want to redefine your terms, 'healthy' people have all sorts of functionsal impairments, some have learning diabilities, others just really bad habits.

Still they have a functional imapirment that is not caused by a mental illness.

But then I suppose anyone who emigrates for employement should be considered mentally ill.

And you are quite wrong, people who are not mentally ill engage in unreasonable behaviors all the time.

You are just creating a magic category that you think means certain people should have a keeper.


I didn't 'just presume' anything, any more than you did, when you wrote about people's freedom to make choices.
I repeat, the limits to freedom are where the freedom of others is infringed.

And again you are saying that a person's freedom should be infringed just because you say so. What makes you think that this individual needed a keeper?

No evidence that an individual was any sort of threat prior to the incident, yet they need someone to mind them.

You are making an assertion after the fact.

[BPSCG]

There don't appear to be any nonstop flights from Warsaw to Vancouver. So he presumably was competent enough to change planes somewhere, or was able to ask for and receive help at the connection airport.

[Lonewulf]

I honestly think that there is too little information available to give a psychiatric diagnosis on this individual. He could have just snapped and had a severe lapse in judgment. He could have been off his meds and had a mental disorder. I don't know, and I daresay, neither does anyone in this thread.

[kerikiwi]

It is astonishing how people can read things that have not been said!
These things I didn't say, and it takes quite a bit of contortion to think I did:

."So you find it unusual that a 40 year old from eastern Europe doesn't speak English?"

No, not at all unusual. But unusual that a 40 year old with a mother living in Canada, who was going to live with said mother, had no English.


."And even if he wasn't completely healthy is that reason enough for police officers to taser him after 24 seconds? I don't think so."

I didn't suggest any such thing. Please don't be ridiculous.


."But then I suppose anyone who emigrates for employement should be considered mentally ill."

See above.

."And you are quite wrong, people who are not mentally ill engage in unreasonable behaviors all the time."

How can I be wrong when I never suggested that? But I do discriminate between 'unreasonable' and 'irrational', while allowing that there are borderline examples.

."You are just creating a magic category that you think means certain people should have a keeper."

No. Just the recognition that some people need protecting from some other people, unfortunate though those other people might be.


I am not making a psychiatric diagnosis at all. Just suggesting that certain factors indicate that it is likely this individual had a previous history of instability, and that the insane behaviour should not necessarily be treated with surprise.
Note that I have made no comment on how he should have been dealt with once he went out of control.

[Dancing David]

It is astonishing how people can read things that have not been said!
These things I didn't say, and it takes quite a bit of contortion to think I did:

."So you find it unusual that a 40 year old from eastern Europe doesn't speak English?"

No, not at all unusual. But unusual that a 40 year old with a mother living in Canada, who was going to live with said mother, had no English.


."And even if he wasn't completely healthy is that reason enough for police officers to taser him after 24 seconds? I don't think so."

I didn't suggest any such thing. Please don't be ridiculous.


."But then I suppose anyone who emigrates for employement should be considered mentally ill."

See above.

Neither you nor I know about any prior behaviours, but I would hazard a guess that a 40 year old man, with no English, travelling alone to Canada to live with his mother, has something going on in his life. It is highly unlikely that a previously healthy person would, without any prior symptons, exhibit such insane behaviour.
And yes, a person who is mentally ill is incapable of functioning in a fully independent healthy way. Else s/he could not be described as mentally ill.


."And you are quite wrong, people who are not mentally ill engage in unreasonable behaviors all the time."

See what you wrote above.


How can I be wrong when I never suggested that? But I do discriminate between 'unreasonable' and 'irrational', while allowing that there are borderline examples.

."You are just creating a magic category that you think means certain people should have a keeper."

No. Just the recognition that some people need protecting from some other people, unfortunate though those other people might be.

And with no evidence you say this person needs a keeper.



I am not making a psychiatric diagnosis at all. Just suggesting that certain factors indicate that it is likely this individual had a previous history of instability, and that the insane behaviour should not necessarily be treated with surprise.
Note that I have made no comment on how he should have been dealt with once he went out of control.

[Stout]

Qayak..I could very well be off the mark with that comment about the general public holding the police in contempt. In my defense all I can say is that I spend a fair amount of time with people under 30 ( I'm 45 ) and in this age group distrust of authority seems rampant.

Lonewulf..You raise a very valid point there...We have absolutely no idea what was going on in Robert Dziekanski's head at the time. I won't torture you with a link, as I'm getting my information from a CBC site's comments section, and there's 1700 comments but when I scanned through it Polish people who commented, and could understand what Robert Dziekanski was saying are suggesting he acted the way he did in order to attract the attention of the police seeing as how he's been unsuccessful in getting aid from the CBSA.

[kerikiwi]

DD if you could be more specific, I could clarify.
You are still misinterpreting and/or misrepresenting, what I wrote.

[Dancing David]

DD if you could be more specific, I could clarify.
You are still misinterpreting and/or misrepresenting, what I wrote.

Whatever, I have spent enough urine, I don't want to have a contest.

[erlando]

."So you find it unusual that a 40 year old from eastern Europe doesn't speak English?"

No, not at all unusual. But unusual that a 40 year old with a mother living in Canada, who was going to live with said mother, had no English.

How does a mother living in Canada for the past eight years have anything to do with the sons ability to speak English?

."And even if he wasn't completely healthy is that reason enough for police officers to taser him after 24 seconds? I don't think so."

I didn't suggest any such thing. Please don't be ridiculous.


No you did not. I jumped to conclusions. I apologize.

I'm getting my information from a CBC site's comments section, and there's 1700 comments but when I scanned through it Polish people who commented, and could understand what Robert Dziekanski was saying are suggesting he acted the way he did in order to attract the attention of the police seeing as how he's been unsuccessful in getting aid from the CBSA.


That just makes the situation even more tragic. :(

[Corsair 115]

There was an interesting article which appeared in the Toronto Star newspaper today. A review by a pair of Canadian Press reporters of taser use by RCMP officers between early 2002 and early 2005 showed that in three-quarters of the 563 cases examined, the suspect being tasered had no weapon.

So it would seem that the taser, rather than being a last choice alternative to the use of a firearm (which is how the taser was originally touted for law enforcement) has instead become seen as an easy way to get a suspect to comply.

The Star's web site doesn't have an online version of the article up yet.

[BPSCG]

There was an interesting article which appeared in the Toronto Star newspaper today. A review by a pair of Canadian Press reporters of taser use by RCMP officers between early 2002 and early 2005 showed that in three-quarters of the 563 cases examined, the suspect being tasered had no weapon.

So it would seem that the taser, rather than being a last choice alternative to the use of a firearm (which is how the taser was originally touted for law enforcement) has instead become seen as an easy way to get a suspect to comply.

The Star's web site doesn't have an online version of the article up yet.Anyone know of any statistics regarding death rates from taser use? If I'm not mistaken, prior to widespread use of tasers, police would often use a baton to choke a violent person into submission. Inevitably, people sometimes died as a result; my recollection was that tasers were supposed to be a safer alternative.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I speak Polish.

From what I can make out of the video, the poor man sounds like he is speaking Russian allthough it could be a heavy local accent. He seems to be cursing at the onlookers and telling them to get away from him. At one point, I heard "they won't let me" and what sounds like "F---- complain!" and "yeah, yeah" and then "Police, police" when the cops come and when they taser him.

I suppose it is possible he was trying to attract attention but it's hard to tell from the video.

For what it's worth, I would take him for mentally ill, too.

[Dan O.]

Also, it is an international airport with flights from every corner of the world and they couldn't find someone who spoke Polish?

http://www.languageline.com/
$3.95/minute, over 170 languages.

[quixotecoyote]

Anyone know of any statistics regarding death rates from taser use? If I'm not mistaken, prior to widespread use of tasers, police would often use a baton to choke a violent person into submission. Inevitably, people sometimes died as a result; my recollection was that tasers were supposed to be a safer alternative.


This is just my impression, but when they started being introduced the message I was getting was a safer alternative to guns.

Now that people are dying is when I hear that they are supposed to be better than choking/beating.

[shuize]

This is just my impression, but when they started being introduced the message I was getting was a safer alternative to guns.

Now that people are dying is when I hear that they are supposed to be better than choking/beating.


I'm not that old, but I remember several incidents of "sleeper holds" going wrong and suspects dying when I was a kid. It seems like tasers started to become much more common right around that same time.

[ponderingturtle]

There was an interesting article which appeared in the Toronto Star newspaper today. A review by a pair of Canadian Press reporters of taser use by RCMP officers between early 2002 and early 2005 showed that in three-quarters of the 563 cases examined, the suspect being tasered had no weapon.

So it would seem that the taser, rather than being a last choice alternative to the use of a firearm (which is how the taser was originally touted for law enforcement) has instead become seen as an easy way to get a suspect to comply.

The Star's web site doesn't have an online version of the article up yet.

So you think that they should use their batons more when faced with unarmed individuals?

[ponderingturtle]

This is just my impression, but when they started being introduced the message I was getting was a safer alternative to guns.

Now that people are dying is when I hear that they are supposed to be better than choking/beating.

There are times when they are an alternative to guns, with armed suspects it would be more able to be used than a club. But that does not mean that they where always seen as worse than much more physical methods, which are also more dangerous for the officers.

[Abooga]

There are times when they are an alternative to guns, with armed suspects it would be more able to be used than a club. But that does not mean that they where always seen as worse than much more physical methods, which are also more dangerous for the officers.

Five guys agains that poor fella... did they actually need to use anything apart form their bare hands? Come on...

[ponderingturtle]

Five guys agains that poor fella... did they actually need to use anything apart form their bare hands? Come on...

You obviously have no experiance trying to get noncompliant people to do things with out hurting them. The taser might well have been the least risky thing to use.

[shuize]

I'm fairly certain that had the police spent more time trying to calm the guy down and while trying to reason with him he'd picked up a chair and threw it into the side of some innocent person's head, the very same people who are crying about "excessive force" now would be up in arms demanding to know why the police let such dangerous situations get out of control when there's a perfectly acceptable, non-lethal tool capable of stunning such individuals into submission.

[Phrost]

I don't think being a cop is harder than any of a number of other jobs. I am expected to be perfect in my job. Any mistake I make, I pay for. When there is a problem, the onus is on me to correct it. When I screw up, I pay. My superiors will not protect me from a screw up, they will expect me to take full responsibility.

When you screw up, do people die?

[Dan O.]

You mister shuize are obviously totally ignorant of the situation. If you had watched the video or bothered to read this thread you would have known that your statement was fallacious.

[erlando]

I'm fairly certain that had the police spent more time trying to calm the guy down and while trying to reason with him he'd picked up a chair and threw it into the side of some innocent person's head, the very same people who are crying about "excessive force" now would be up in arms demanding to know why the police let such dangerous situations get out of control when there's a perfectly acceptable, non-lethal tool capable of stunning such individuals into submission.

By that logic anyone being confronted by the police should be tasered right off the bat just in case? Because you never know...

[Jimbo07]

You mister shuize are obviously totally ignorant of the situation. If you had watched the video or bothered to read this thread you would have known that your statement was fallacious.

Unlike everyone else in this thread... :rolleyes:

1% conversation, 99% speculation. Wait for the inquiries.

Everyone has an opinion, it seems.

[Dan O.]

Wait is the operative term in this incident...

Emergency radio logs leaked to CTV British Columbia show a 12-minute gap from when Dziekanski lost consciousness and when B.C. Ambulance arrived.

The airport has its own paramedics who could have been at the scene within two minutes, but the airport supervisor did not call them, CTV British Columbia reported.

[Abooga]

You obviously have no experiance trying to get noncompliant people to do things with out hurting them. The taser might well have been the least risky thing to use.

I´ve worked as a security guard, unarmed and in the roughest parts of Liverpool (UK). (Didn´t enjoy it though). So I know what it can be like (even if I never had a really bad confrontation, but I saw a few CCTV vids where my colleagues reduced big crazy thieves just by grappling with them. (I´m not talking about armed robbers)

In the OP case, looking at the video, it does look like they could have reduced him easily with just their bare hands. I´d have done it.

And I suscribe with what erlando said.

[ponderingturtle]

I´ve worked as a security guard, unarmed and in the roughest parts of Liverpool (UK). (Didn´t enjoy it though). So I know what it can be like (even if I never had a really bad confrontation, but I saw a few CCTV vids where my colleagues reduced big crazy thieves just by grappling with them. (I´m not talking about armed robbers)

In the OP case, looking at the video, it does look like they could have reduced him easily with just their bare hands. I´d have done it.

And I suscribe with what erlando said.

A thief is generaly not an emotionaly disturbed person like the individual here.

[Abooga]

A thief is generaly not an emotionaly disturbed person like the individual here.

... You haven´t been to Kensington or Toxteth in Liverpool, have you?

[Jimbo07]

Wait is the operative term in this incident...

It is fair for the public to ask questions (such as why weren't paramedics called?), even to demand an inquiry. However, once the inquiry is called, if the public are not willing to wait for the results, they enter into the realm of speculation. Worse, there are people on radio talkshows and teh internets who will try to armchair QB the inquiry, while not in posession of all the information. It was always thus.

B.C. Calls an inquiry... (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/19/bc-taserinquiry.html)

[technoextreme]

I´ve worked as a security guard, unarmed and in the roughest parts of Liverpool (UK). (Didn´t enjoy it though). So I know what it can be like (even if I never had a really bad confrontation, but I saw a few CCTV vids where my colleagues reduced big crazy thieves just by grappling with them. (I´m not talking about armed robbers)

In the OP case, looking at the video, it does look like they could have reduced him easily with just their bare hands. I´d have done it.

And I suscribe with what erlando said.
Ahhh so you have no idea what you are talking about. People who are on drugs and mentally disturbed people are the two most dangerous people to fight against. My mother worked with the one end of the insanity spectrum. These people could sit on a stove and burn themselves without even noticing. Of course these were people who were constantly supervised.

[wahrheit]

If this guy was so mentally ill, weird, agressive, — how come he made it on board of that airplane? Why didn't he cause a commotion during the long flight? (At least I haven't heard or read about anything like this happening, maybe I missed it, though.)

[Garrette]

Ahhh so you have no idea what you are talking about. People who are on drugs and mentally disturbed people are the two most dangerous people to fight against. My mother worked with the one end of the insanity spectrum. These people could sit on a stove and burn themselves without even noticing. Of course these were people who were constantly supervised.And I have set up and managed security departments in multiple hospitals, two of which were strictly psychiatric hospitals and all of which contained a psychiatric ward.

While I would hold off on a final conclusion until an investigation were completed, I would lean heavily toward Abooga's analysis in the interim. If no further evidence were forthcoming and I were forced to rely solely on this video, I would at minimum provide severe administrative discipline to my security officers and likely fire the lead and/or whoever fired the taser.

There was not nearly enough attempt at verbal de-escalation, and every single move the officers made was made in such a fashion as to appear threatening. Whether that was their intent or not is irrelevant; it was the result, and officers in that situation need to know how to maximize the opportunity for a nonviolent resolution.

Simultaneously, I'd be all over the head of the airport for not providing services to this man long before the situation arose.

[Corsair 115]

So you think that they should use their batons more when faced with unarmed individuals?The point I was making is that tasers are, apparently, being used in a manner quite different from the manner in which their adoption was originally argued, that is, a safer alternative to firearms. I don't recall the adoption of tasers being touted as a replacement for batons or physical restraining by police officers (though it is certainly possible my recollection is incorrect).

[Phrost]

The problem with this is that the public in general has an unrealistic understanding of just about anything to do with Law Enforcement, much less their inability to magically protect violent people from hurting themselves and/or others.

[qayak]

When you screw up, do people die?

Yes.

[qayak]

I like how this thread has been spun so a person who started out as a Polish immigrant is now a drugged out, psychopath.

Even the RCMP are bound by the use of force laws. I think, with the video, they are going to have trouble convincing an independant inquirer that they acted legally. However, in Canada, there is no independant inquiry, the police investigate themselves so they'll walk.

[Fitter]

However, in Canada, there is no independant inquiry, the police investigate themselves so they'll walk.

Not this time. (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/20/day-taser.html) I also believe the BC coroner is doing an independent inquest into the incident.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I like how this thread has been spun so a person who started out as a Polish immigrant is now a drugged out, psychopath.

Even the RCMP are bound by the use of force laws. I think, with the video, they are going to have trouble convincing an independant inquirer that they acted legally. However, in Canada, there is no independant inquiry, the police investigate themselves so they'll walk.

I believe it was a very tragic misunderstanding caused by a failure to communicate but based on the video, I wouldn't rule out that the guy had mental problems or was drugged out. The way he was talking and behaving, I would immediatly think he was taking drugs or needed to be taking drugs.

[fuelair]

You disgust me.
And that should concern me because?:D:rolleyes:

[erlando]

And that should concern me because?:D:rolleyes:

Well, you decide... ;)

Just to be clear; my disgust was/is directed at your opinion on this matter. I doubt I would be disgusted by you as a person if we ever met. :)

[Professor Yaffle]

I agree with Corsair. I remember when tasers were first being mooted as an option for the police. All the public debate around them was centred on them being a safer alternative to firearms in situations where firearms would have been used in the past. Opponents were worried that there would soon become a much lower threshold for the use of a taser, and that it would be vulnerable groups (especially the mentally ill) which would bear the brunt of the change. They also worried that the taser would become a substitute for proper training in how to deal with people in distress and calm them down.

[Tokenconservative]

That's pretty heavy, Bro.

Don't misunderstand me, Bro!!!

[Bikewer]

Out of control people must be dealt with in some way. If one can "de-escalate" a person in some sort of crisis, fine. Training in this is ongoing and increasingly popular. Our department is in the process of having all personnel "CIT" (Crisis Intervention Team) certified. (I am)

Sometimes, especially in the case of a severe psychotic episode or drug use, it's not possible.

Police have a continuum of force to use in such cases, ranging from simple hands-on techniques up through chemical sprays, batons, Tasers, etc., with the ultimate being deadly force.
The baton is, if used according to current training techniques, less dangerous than it used to be. Used to be we were simply told to hit them over the head, or to attack joints and bony structures. This often resulted in brain damage and/or severe, permanent injuries.

The same can be said of physically wrestling with the individual. Especially in the case of drug-fueled (notably PCP!) rages, the individual may be virtually unstoppable by means of normal pain-inducing techniques.
Chemical sprays can be quite effective, but again extremely violent or psychotic people may be only slightly affected.
The Taser, normally, results in a full-body "charly-horse" condition where the individual is rendered essentially incapable of moving during the 5-second pulse. He can be safely handcuffed or otherwise restrained during this period.
It is a tool for controlling out-of-control individuals with a much smaller chance of causing them severe harm than any of the other traditional methods.

Unfortunately, sometimes these individuals die. There was just a case ruling this morning where a young psychotic individual died as a result of his psychotically-fueled hyperactivity.
They Medical Examiner ruled that death was due to this hyperactive state rather than police actions.

[erlando]

Out of control people must be dealt with in some way. If one can "de-escalate" a person in some sort of crisis, fine. Training in this is ongoing and increasingly popular. Our department is in the process of having all personnel "CIT" (Crisis Intervention Team) certified. (I am)

Have you seen the video? How would you as a certified CIT-member rate the performance of the four RCMP-officers?

[annexw]

I have seen the video and I'm completely muddled at what to think.

It seems to be excessive force, but I have no police/security training so I'm not sure what they were supposed to do other then talk him down, which given his lack of english would have been hard, but they could have found someone who spoke Polish/Russian.

But if you don't speak polish/Russian, is his speech that obvious as one of those languages?

The one thing that gets me is the reports of the one officer asking "if he could taser him" (I didn't hear shoot, but maybe I'm wrong), which to me says that police thought he was out of control before they got their (the breaking of the computer possibly?) and the office was trying to make sure they were on the same page. That does not, to me, say that they were going to taser him regardless of what happened.

I'm waiting to see what the inquest says before I make up my mind. In general I trust the RCMP and I would not like that to change. That being said, if they did something wrong here, I would like to see the guidelines reflected in that.

I just don't know where the line comes in protecting the individual and protecting the officers.

[Bikewer]

Having now watched the video, I'm inclined to think the use of the Taser was justified. The actions of the individual in the early bit, building his "barricade" and throwing furniture around would certainly indicate that he was potentially violent.
The lack of communication exacerbates things, but it's also true that he appears to be trying to back away from the officers, possibly to flee into what's probably a crowded terminal.
In these cases, you want to contain the incident to as small an area as possible, to eliminate the possibility of the individual harming bystanders.
The comments by the apparently-18-year-old "witness" are neither illuminating or helpful, the lad obviously has no experience with such incidents.
What he describes as "raising his arms in surrender" appeared to me to be violently dismissive of the officers. The guy's demeanor in general was agitated and combative.
Even after the Taser is applied, the officers have to fight with the guy to control him.

It would not surprise me to see a medical examiner's finding of death due to psychotic agitation, but who knows? He's a heavy-set middle-aged fellow....Possibly a coronary.

[qayak]

Having now watched the video, I'm inclined to think the use of the Taser was justified. The actions of the individual in the early bit, building his "barricade" and throwing furniture around would certainly indicate that he was potentially violent.

yeah and in the early bit a woman walks up and talks to him and he calms down. He was a real threat!! :rolleyes:

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

yeah and in the early bit a woman walks up and talks to him and he calms down. He was a real threat!! :rolleyes:

He seems to tell her to go away. Allthough he could be talking to himself or commenting on the crowd around him because he says it in plural.

I'm not sure but I think he's saying "I won't let you accuse me" at the start of the video. Maybe he thought he was being held for a crime?

[Corsair 115]

Beyond the use of the taser, there's still the question of how he was allowed to remain some ten hours in a supposedly secure area without anyone noticing. That wouldn't seem to speak well of the level of security. Folks who have arrived usually don't hang around airports for ten hours, they usually collect their luggage and continue on their way.

[shuize]

Beyond the use of the taser, there's still the question of how he was allowed to remain some ten hours in a supposedly secure area without anyone noticing. That wouldn't seem to speak well of the level of security. Folks who have arrived usually don't hang around airports for ten hours, they usually collect their luggage and continue on their way.


I can certainly agree with that. Instead of focusing all the attention on the tasering, which seemed justified once the police were called in, the real question is how the hell that guy was allowed to wander around a secure area for hours without someone getting suspicious.

[erlando]

I simply cannot wrap my head around whow people can say the tasering was justified. Is it really ok in people's head that police officers use force after trying just 24 seconds without force? Yes they have a right to protect themselves but they were not being attacked.

This to me is nothing but showing (the officers') total disrespect for fellow humans. It disgusts me to a degree where I'm inclined to just wipe the north american continent off the map of my travel destinations. It makes me afraid that I'll somehow find myself in the same situation where noone helps me and the police has carte blanche to just subdue me with force without anyone thinking it's wrong.

Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart European.

[shuize]

I simply cannot wrap my head around whow people can say the tasering was justified. Is it really ok in people's head that police officers use force after trying just 24 seconds without force? Yes they have a right to protect themselves but they were not being attacked.

This to me is nothing but showing (the officers') total disrespect for fellow humans. It disgusts me to a degree where I'm declined to just wipe the north american continent off the map of my travel destinations. It makes me afraid that I'll somehow find myself in the same situation where noone helps me and the police has carte blanche to just subdue me with force without anyone thinking it's wrong.

Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart European.


Ask yourself how your police deal with someone who is out of control. I don't know where you are, but I've heard stories from friends about German police ...

As I mentioned in the other taser thread, I asked that question of my Japanese students. Their eventual response was, "They hit them with their batons." My guess is that uncooperative and combative people get dealt with forcefully in most places and, if we're really being honest with ourselves, we'd have to admit that tasers probably save more deaths and serious injuries than they cause. But, as Carl Sagan used to say, I could be wrong.

[Abooga]

I simply cannot wrap my head around whow people can say the tasering was justified. Is it really ok in people's head that police officers use force after trying just 24 seconds without force? Yes they have a right to protect themselves but they were not being attacked.

This to me is nothing but showing (the officers') total disrespect for fellow humans. It disgusts me to a degree where I'm inclined to just wipe the north american continent off the map of my travel destinations. It makes me afraid that I'll somehow find myself in the same situation where noone helps me and the police has carte blanche to just subdue me with force without anyone thinking it's wrong.

Maybe I'm just a bleeding heart European.

Don´t be so afraid. I went to the US last summer and it was fine. I actually got pulled over in a Highway by a very nice officer who considering I was foreign only issued a "warning" note even though I was clearly speeding (110mph in a 70mph road). If you have that negative image of the US, you should go, you´ll be surprised by how nice and open people generally are. (Except in N.Y...)

You can find bad cops anywhere. Go to any eastern european country, like the Czech Republic or Poland and you´ll see some really scary cops... used to having absolute authority from their not so distant "commie" past..

[erlando]

Ask yourself how your police deal with someone who is out of control. I don't know where you are, but I've heard stories from friends about German police ...

It's this "out of control" that gets me, really. I have no problem with police officers protecting themselves from violent persons. If you physically attack or try to attack a police officer you have it coming and tasers might be ok at that point. They are certainly better than firearms.

But up until that point it shouldn't be necessary to use force. Police officers should be trained to talk to people. At least give people more than 24 seconds of chance to make their case.

Just today in danish news there's a story about the danish police getting more training in dealing non-violently with mentally unstable persons. We've had a very unfortunate incident where guns were used which should have been resolved non-violently. The point being that the goal is not less force, the goal is no force.

[erlando]

Don´t be so afraid. I went to the US last summer and it was fine. I actually got pulled over in a Highway by a very nice officer who considering I was foreign only issued a "warning" note even though I was clearly speeding (110mph in a 70mph road). If you have that negative image of the US, you should go, you´ll be surprised by how nice and open people generally are. (Except in N.Y...)

You can find bad cops anywhere. Go to any eastern european country, like the Czech Republic or Poland and you´ll see some really scary cops... used to having absolute authority from their not so distant "commie" past..

I've been to the States just this past summer and I have no grudge with the people there. Very nice and very curious to know about Europe and such.

But coming into the States is a very scary deal indeed. We flew into Denver Airport and while we were waiting at immigration the area was surrounded by four heavily armed border police officers with assault rifles at the ready. That's paranoia taken to the extreme.

Maybe I'm just not used to guns but seeing that doesn't make me feel safer. It scares me.

And I agree that you can find bad cops anywhere. Maybe that was why Robert acted the way he did. He's been brought up in communist Poland an might not have the greatest trust in the police...

[TX50]

Maybe I'm just not used to guns but seeing that doesn't make me feel safer. It scares me.



But where have you been in Europe? British police are routinely armed with
SMGs at big airports. German cops are too. French gens d'armes patrol
railway stations in camouflage combat suits and military assault rifles. Most
European cops routinely go on patrol with sidearms, and have done so for
years.

[Dancing David]

I have worked with some 'good old boy' officers who one would not think gave a crap about the people they work with. But they do, I have seen them descalate tense situtaions, I have seen them be very calm in the face of threats and agression. There are officers who should not be cops, but in the main they behave professionally and act carefully.

[Rob Lister]

It disgusts me to a degree where I'm inclined to just wipe the north american continent off the map of my travel destinations.

Oh, wow, we're saddened so.

[erlando]

But where have you been in Europe? British police are routinely armed with
SMGs at big airports. German cops are too. French gens d'armes patrol
railway stations in camouflage combat suits and military assault rifles. Most
European cops routinely go on patrol with sidearms, and have done so for
years.

I've been all across Europe and I think there's a difference in the "feel" and presence of heavily armed police.

The feel I got from the american border patrol was that I was a potential criminal/terrorist and they would shoot me if I as much as stepped out of line. That's not a nice feeling.

It's obviously a difference in culture.

[erlando]

Oh, wow, we're saddened so.

Maybe you should be. The immigration at the border is the first impression travelers get of your country. It might not be the right impression as a whole but it's the one that sticks.

But as a typical american you apparently don't give a hoot about the rest of the world. That's your loss.

[Rob Lister]

Maybe you should be. The immigration at the border is the first impression travelers get of your country. It might not be the right impression as a whole but it's the one that sticks.

But as a typical american you apparently don't give a hoot about the rest of the world. That's your loss.

1) It's not my country. I live in Virginia. Nevertheless, stay away from the U.S. too.

2) I give a hoot only insofar as the visitors are not loony, as was this case.

[Abooga]

You´re right, erlando, the first impression when passing through the security checks is quite negative, if only because of the loooong time they make you wait and queue, while being stared at by suspicious officers while you try not to look too nervous so they won´t take you to interrogation or something. But much of that is necessary, don´t you think? There really are some nutters out there who love to blow up things...

Where in Europe are you from, erlando? If you don´t mind me asking. Here in Spain cops do bring out the guns and even aim them at you in traffic controls when they think they need to...

...

There is one thing that I´ve been thinking about recently. It has to do with the accusations of police brutality (usually accusations of torture of arrested suspects) that are routinely issued against the "spanish occupation forces" (as the basque independentists would call them). It just surprises me how, in the year 2007 there still is no law that forces policemen to record every single moment that one spends detained, from the police car to the cell, to whichever place they want to take you.
Why not, if the technology is already available?
Does this measure exist in any country?
Anyone knows?
Wouldn´t that be a great way to protect citizens from those nasty "rotten apples"? And to clear the image of the police, if those torture accusations are unfounded...
I just think this measure should be a must, in a civilized country.

New thread perhaps, since it has no direct relation with the OP?

[erlando]

You´re right, erlando, the first impression when passing through the security checks is quite negative, if only because of the loooong time they make you wait and queue, while being stared at by suspicious officers while you try not to look too nervous so they won´t take you to interrogation or something. But much of that is necessary, don´t you think? There really are some nutters out there who love to blow up things...


Yeah, well.. Seeing as I come right from a plane where I had to take off my shoes and belt and was patted down just to get on board I think the risk of me blowing something up right there is not that great..

Of course the immigration officers have to be vigilant, no doubt. I didn't mind the questions. I even chatted to the guy about roller coasters. But there's a long way from being vigilant to being right out intimidating.


Where in Europe are you from, erlando? If you don´t mind me asking. Here in Spain cops do bring out the guns and even aim them at you in traffic controls when they think they need to...


I'm from Denmark. Our police has to write a weapons usage report if the gun leaves the holster. I think there would be a public outrage if a police officer drew his gun needlessly during a traffic stop! :eek:

[Lonewulf]

Wow.

So there are people in this thread that actually support talking to someone for 20 seconds, and then immediately shooting them with a taser because there's that ever so slight chance that it might have been the "only way" to de-escalate the situation. Of course, it doesn't matter if it killed someone, because he was "loony". Who cares if someone that's loony dies, after all?

I am thoroughly saddened.

[Corsair 115]

I'm from Denmark. Our police has to write a weapons usage report if the gun leaves the holster.I know the Metro Toronto Police have to do the same thing, and I think a lot of other police forces in Canada have to as well.

[dglas]

The clip doesn't give us the whole story, but on the face of it, it didn't look like he was armed or aggressively trying to hurt people. He was approached by someone and didn't harm her. Seems like a talker situation to me.

Now, if the guy was just trying to keep people away from him and not taking aggressive action towards others unless they approached, it seems to me the thing to do would be to keep people away from him and wait for a translator before deciding what to do, or perhaps someone equipped with tools/training more appropriate to the situation than tasers.

But then, I have no professional training. :)

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Wow.

So there are people in this thread that actually support talking to someone for 20 seconds, and then immediately shooting them with a taser because there's that ever so slight chance that it might have been the "only way" to de-escalate the situation. Of course, it doesn't matter if it killed someone, because he was "loony". Who cares if someone that's loony dies, after all?

I am thoroughly saddened.

What you said.

If I was there, my first thought would be that the man was on drugs or mentally ill and I still wouldn't rule it out yet...but even assuming this was the case, it is still a heartbreakingly senseless and entirely avoidable death.

And there's no one to blame for it but the police and, to a lesser extent, the airport staff. I hope they go to prison for a long, long time.

As for "loony" behavior, think how you would react if, among other things, you were stuck in an airport for ten hours. Ten hours. That's like your worst airport and airplane delay/ customs nightmare/ airport staff, airline company, etc. screwup story multipled it by a dozen.

Most of us lose our minds over a lot less at the airport.

[LashL]

I know the Metro Toronto Police have to do the same thing, and I think a lot of other police forces in Canada have to as well.

Yes, that is certainly the case for the TPS and numerous other police forces in Ontario. They are required to file "use of force" reports every time they draw their weapons. (I can't speak for other provinces but I suspect that they have similar provisions.)


ETA: As for the larger question that is the subject of this thread, I don't think we have complete enough information yet to make a determination as to the propriety or impropriety of the police response. The result, we probably all agree, was unfortunate. But whether the police were justified or not in their response is still an open question that will not be answered for several months at least (and maybe years). Given that we live in a democratic society where one is innocent until proven guilty, I'm okay with that.

[Lonewulf]

ETA: As for the larger question that is the subject of this thread, I don't think we have complete enough information yet to make a determination as to the propriety or impropriety of the police response.
Why? What information would make the tasering justified?

What would have justified the second tasering while he was on the ground and unable to resist?

[CptColumbo]

Theoretically he had just got off a plane that came from Poland, with possibly a stop on the east coast of North America or in western Europe (or maybe they went the other way around), so there might have been another Polish speaker on board that could have helped the security staff and the RCMP. In the ten hours he was held, they were unable to find a translator (even the relatives he was meeting) to help?

[Blue Mountain]

Theoretically he had just got off a plane that came from Poland, with possibly a stop on the east coast of North America or in western Europe (or maybe they went the other way around), so there might have been another Polish speaker on board that could have helped the security staff and the RCMP. In the ten hours he was held, they were unable to find a translator (even the relatives he was meeting) to help?
(Bolding mine) He was not held at the airport, at least not by security or staff. The man was waiting for his mother by the baggage carousel as she had asked him to. Unfortunately, the carousel was in a secure area that his mother could not get to.

Three times his mother when to the CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency) desk in the public area asking for information about her son. All they did (apparently) was check a computer and notice that he had not yet checked in with the immigration desk in the secure area. Which was true; he was waiting for his mother some unknown distance away. I think he was waiting for her so she could assist him with the process at the immigration desk. After all, she speaks English fairly well, and her assistance would have been valuable.

According to the CBC news story linked to earlier, no one from CBSA bothered to walk from the public area to the secure area to see if there was a middle aged man waiting there.

[Stout]

He was actually waiting by the baggage carousel because that's where his mother told him to meet her. Mom was unaware that the baggage carousel , in international arrivals was in a secure area that she wouldn't be able to access. If only the CBSA had taken the few minutes to do something civilised, like letting her page her son in a language he'd understand, or escorting her through the secure area so she could look for him in the area she was supposed to meet him in, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I can't say that I'm anti-taser when it's compared to the other "non-lethal" alternatives like choke holds, batons, or a punch in the head, but in this case it sure looks like the police had decided on the taser as a course of action before they've even had a chance to personally assess the situation. I don't want sort of attitude to become the norm.

Any sort of info on the amount of head injury cases caused by unsupported taserees falling to the ground, paralysed, and unable to control their descent to the floor ? In all the online taser videos I've seen where there's a lone officer tasering a suspect ( example, Utah traffic stop guy ) the officer seems happy to just let the suspect fall as they may.

[Molinaro]

What a bunch of bleeding heart blowhards.

They guy picked up and smashed a computer on the ground.

He trew a chair at someone who was trying to talk to him.

I would expect the police to have heard about that before they walked up to him.

Oh but they didn't wait for him to take violent action against the police before tasering him.. poor misunderstood bad guy. :rolleyes:

I sure as hell don't want the police to wait for the guy to walk over and pick up something to throw at them. He turned and walked away from them and got what he deserved.. a tasering.

Death is certainly not what he deserved, nor is it what the police would have expected to hapen.

[Lonewulf]

What a bunch of bleeding heart blowhards.
Better than being a heartless asshat that doesn't mind gunning down people without even attempting communication.

Go back under your bridge.

[Molinaro]

They tried to talk, he turned and started moving away from them.

Enough of this nonsense of police wasting their time hand-holding crimminals. Bag the perp then get onto the next one.

[Lonewulf]

They tried to talk, he turned and started moving away from them.
Sure, so go ahead and shoot him, and then shoot him again while he's on the ground. Makes perfect sense.

Bag the perp then get onto the next one.

And this demonstrates how people like you think.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that would make you different from a "perp" and him is that apparently, you would have the badge.

Go back under your bridge, you ignorant buffoon.

[Molinaro]

Sure, so go ahead and shoot him, and then shoot him again while he's on the ground. Makes perfect sense.


Yes it does, rather than let him make a run for it -- potentialy endangering the public any further. He already demonstrated violent behaviour. Does he have to succeed with his violence against a person before the police get to stop him?

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that would make you different from a "perp" and him is that apparently, you would have the badge.

English please? (you/perp/him) ??

[Lonewulf]

Yes it does, rather than let him make a run for it -- potentialy endangering the public any further. He already demonstrated violent behaviour. Does he have to succeed with his violence against a person before the police get to stop him?
"Succeed with his violence against a person"? Oh, so he attacked someone?

No, wait, he didn't.

Cops should probably tazer everyone they arrest. After all, they MIGHT resist, and that's a no-no! :jaw-dropp

Man, police have grown into big wusses, and so have people like you. You can't take the heat by actually trying to talk to someone, because they MIGHT just grow violent? :rolleyes: That's just hilarious. Either they're the biggest wusses in the world, or they were just wanting to tase someone. I'm thinking the latter.

English please? (you/perp/him) ??

That was in English. I may have typoed in a few words that didn't belong, but if that means you couldn't understand what I had written, then I highly suggest you get yourself an education in reading comprehension. Because you would desperately need it.

Heh, by the way, hope we never meet. You'd probably taser me because disagreeing with you MIGHT just mean I'm a PCP-laden guy that's ready to make your skull my bitch. Then you'd taser me AGAIN just in case I might actually manage to get away, because after all, even though I'm helpless, getting away would be a no-no. Then, when I die of a heart attack, you can pat yourself on the back and be heralded as a hero. After all, even though you outnumbered an individual and obviously had the upper hand and could have solved the whole thing through actually talking with me -- isn't it killing someone that really makes you feel good?

[Molinaro]

"Succeed with his violence against a person"? Oh, so he attacked someone?

No, wait, he didn't.

He picked up the computer, was prevented by the attached cables from heaving it at the person who was trying to talk to him, so he smashed it at his own feet instead. Then he picked up a chair and threw that at the person who was trying to talk to him.

I guess it helps your argument when you pretend stuff didn't hapen.

Cops should probably tazer everyone they arrest. After all, they MIGHT resist, and that's a no-no! :jaw-dropp

Makes sense, if you ignore the actions of the person in question and decide that it applies to everyone in general. :rolleyes:

That was in English. I may have typoed in a few words that didn't belong, but if that means you couldn't understand what I had written, then I highly suggest you get yourself an education in reading comprehension. Because you would desperately need it.

Sorry for being French. I blame my parents. And it still makes no sense to me.

[CptColumbo]

He was actually waiting by the baggage carousel because that's where his mother told him to meet her. Mom was unaware that the baggage carousel , in international arrivals was in a secure area that she wouldn't be able to access. If only the CBSA had taken the few minutes to do something civilised, like letting her page her son in a language he'd understand, or escorting her through the secure area so she could look for him in the area she was supposed to meet him in, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I can't say that I'm anti-taser when it's compared to the other "non-lethal" alternatives like choke holds, batons, or a punch in the head, but in this case it sure looks like the police had decided on the taser as a course of action before they've even had a chance to personally assess the situation. I don't want sort of attitude to become the norm.
I'm in agreement with you there.

I would think that the international arrivals area would have had previous experience with language problems and/or be trained in ways to handle them without resorting to calling police.

I recently had to book a room with a hotel in Mumbai, it was one of the most frustrating experiences I've ever had. Mainly due to having it all resolved with a person I thought said his name was "Steve" at one point, but getting disconnected accidently. Then no one there knew someone named "Steve" and refused to ask if anyone had been helping someone in the US with booking a room. I've had to book hotels in foreign countries before so I was used to language problems, but to have it compounded with incompetence tried my patience. It all got resolved without anyone yelling, but I had to have a shot of good whiskey after.

[Dan O.]

I sure as hell don't want the police to wait for the guy to walk over and pick up something to throw at them. He turned and walked away from them and got what he deserved. a tasering.

What version of the video did you watch? There are some that have been edited that might give a different view of the events.

Try to describe the exact setting at the time the first taser is fired. Post the URL of the video and the time stamp for when the taser is fired so we know we are looking at the same scene.

[qayak]

Yes it does, rather than let him make a run for it -- potentialy endangering the public any further. He already demonstrated violent behaviour. Does he have to succeed with his violence against a person before the police get to stop him?

We are talking about an airport here! There are no secret passages for this man to disappear into. There will be no high speed chases with exploding cars and downed helicopters.

Have you ever been to YVR? This guy wasn't going anywhere and he was not a threat to anyone.

[Lonewulf]

He picked up the computer, was prevented by the attached cables from heaving it at the person who was trying to talk to him, so he smashed it at his own feet instead. Then he picked up a chair and threw that at the person who was trying to talk to him.
I didn't see that. I saw him throwing objects at the windows for attention, though. I did not see him throw anything at actual individuals.

I guess it helps your argument when you pretend stuff didn't hapen.
I saw the video. I did not see him actually attack anyone.

Makes sense, if you ignore the actions of the person in question and decide that it applies to everyone in general. :rolleyes:
I did not ignore the actions of the person in question. Police came in, very threatening. He backed away. To you, backing away is hostile enough to deserve TWO taserings, to the point of killing the victim.

Makes sense. :rolleyes:

Sorry for being French. I blame my parents. And it still makes no sense to me.
Then your reading comprehension is so crippling that I might as well throw you on ignore now to save time.

[Stout]

One would think that CBSA officers in international arrivals would be sensitive to language issues but my experience being subjected to a little extra scrutiny and having to wait in line to be scrutinized while watching other people go through the process at YVR convinces me that the CBSA agents are not sensitive to this as an issue.

I witness CBSA agents committing the typical faux pas of talking louder when faced with language issues. Having said that though, I have to speculate that sometimes, some people feign a lack of understanding in hopes that they may get away with something.

When the CBSA agent was checking me out, I could only describe the process as surreal.

Agent: Do you have a switchblade knife in your bag ? ( this was my checked luggage she was on about )
Me: No
Agent: do you have a knife in your bag?
Me: yes, it's a dive knife, a little one ( 3 inch blade ) with a blunt tip and serrated edge
Agent: Are you sure it's not a switchblade?
Me: Let's open the bag and have a look
Agent: No..why does the knife show a bright spot half way along it's length when we look at the bag with the X-ray machine

The bag was right there, under the machine, we were both looking at the X-ray

Me: I don't know...let's open the bag
Agent: No. does the knife have a hole in the blade?
Me: No, what do you mean?
Agent reaches into her pocket and flips open a pocket knife that had a hole in the blade.
Me: Why does your knife have a hole in the blade
Agent: I don't know
Me: Let's open the bag and have a look
Agent. No...you can go.

Cut to me walking away, bewildered , wondering just what the heck was going on there.

So I'm not surprised that the CBSA were ignorant of Robert's plight and no doubt thought that dealing with him was not in their job description.

I don't figure Robert was a flight risk, seeing as he had 10 hours to leave of his own accord yet chose to stick around.

[Corsair 115]

One would think that CBSA officers in international arrivals would be sensitive to language issues but my experience being subjected to a little extra scrutiny and having to wait in line to be scrutinized while watching other people go through the process at YVR convinces me that the CBSA agents are not sensitive to this as an issue. One can only wonder what's going to happen in two years' time when the 2010 Winter Olympics take place.

[Corsair 115]

To follow up on the story, the CBSA (Canadian Border Security Agency) today released a report which included a timeline of Dziekanski's movements. From a CTV News (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20071126/cbsa_dziekanski_071126/20071126?hub=TopStories) online article about the report:

At 3:30 p.m. on Oct. 13, he arrived at the airport on a flight from Frankfurt.
Dziekanski was processed through primary border inspection at 4:09 p.m.
According to footage captured by surveillance cameras, he then proceeded in the direction of the immigration secondary area. However, footage is limited and there are only two shots of Dziekanski.
Instead of arriving at the immigrant secondary area, Dziekanski walked to the baggage area, where his mother mistakenly thought she would be able to meet him.
At about 7 p.m., Dziekanski's stepfather called the CBSA area at the airport to locate his wife's son, but officials couldn't find him.
Dziekanski apparently stayed in the baggage area for more than six hours, before he attempted to leave at 10:40 p.m. A border services officer directed him to the secondary inspection area.
His bags were processed and cleared, and he was then taken to immigration's secondary area to have his identification papers processed.
No translators who spoke Polish were available, but he was helped by an official who had a limited vocabulary in the language.
At 11:30 p.m. an official paged the public area to notify anyone waiting for Dziekanski, but his mother had already been told to go home.
Zofia Cisowski called border officials at 2:10 a.m. on Oct. 14. But at that time, Dziekanski was either already dead or being confronted by the RCMP.
A CBC News article on the report can be read here (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/11/26/bc-cbsareport.html).

[ponderingturtle]

Where in Europe are you from, erlando? If you don´t mind me asking. Here in Spain cops do bring out the guns and even aim them at you in traffic controls when they think they need to...

But they are much more friendly about it.

[ponderingturtle]

Wow.

So there are people in this thread that actually support talking to someone for 20 seconds, and then immediately shooting them with a taser because there's that ever so slight chance that it might have been the "only way" to de-escalate the situation. Of course, it doesn't matter if it killed someone, because he was "loony". Who cares if someone that's loony dies, after all?

I am thoroughly saddened.

So how long to you talk to someone you have no language with and how has allready demonstrated violent behavior?

[erlando]

So how long to you talk to someone you have no language with and how has allready demonstrated violent behavior?

As long as it takes to get a translator. This took place in the international arrivals area of a major airport. So one would think that a translator would be relatively easy to find.

And you at least try a non-violent approach for more than 24 seconds, violent behaviour or not.

[Lonewulf]

So how long to you talk to someone you have no language with and how has allready demonstrated violent behavior?

You're right, ponderingturtle! This post demonstrates your TRUE intelligence!

If you can't speak someone's language and has demonstrated violent behavior, you immediately act intimidating and then, as soon as they back away 5 seconds after attempting "peaceful intimidation", SHOOT THEM AS MANY TIMES AS POSSIBLE JUST TO MAKE SURE! YEAH!

Then, if they die, you can put another notch on your belt.

[Corsair 115]

So how long to you talk to someone you have no language with and how has allready demonstrated violent behavior?Violent towards things, not people. A subtle but perhaps important distinction.

[ponderingturtle]

Violent towards things, not people. A subtle but perhaps important distinction.

But when someone is out of control and violent even if not hurting any person yet, well do you wait for them to hurt people?

[Dan O.]

Which incident are you talking about now? From what I remember of the Vancouver tape, the man was backed up to the counter, appeared to have his hands visible on the counter and the officers were spread out surrounding him. The situation was contained and non violent... until one of the police officers fired his taser for jollies.

[ponderingturtle]

Which incident are you talking about now? From what I remember of the Vancouver tape, the man was backed up to the counter, appeared to have his hands visible on the counter and the officers were spread out surrounding him. The situation was contained and non violent... until one of the police officers fired his taser for jollies.

Ah so all that they needed to do was grapple with him.

[Dan O.]

What is it with you and violence all the time? What's wrong with getting a translator and communicating?

[Lonewulf]

What is it with you and violence all the time? What's wrong with getting a translator and communicating?

It's the only way to be a real man. Wimps actually try to negotiate, real men zap people.

[ponderingturtle]

What is it with you and violence all the time? What's wrong with getting a translator and communicating?

So how long to they keep him like that? what more violent actions does he need to comit while not complying with them to justify force?

[quixotecoyote]

So how long to they keep him like that? what more violent actions does he need to comit while not complying with them to justify force?



Yes, why didn't he just comply with the orders he can't understand? That idiot! :rolleyes:

[ponderingturtle]

Yes, why didn't he just comply with the orders he can't understand? That idiot! :rolleyes:

It is impossible to tell what securty people want with you after you smash a computer when they surround you I see, you can not ever make a guess.

[Dan O.]

So how long to they keep him like that? what more violent actions does he need to comit while not complying with them to justify force?

How about long enough to bring in a translator so they can command him to peacefully submit to arrest or until he shows he is not going to remain quiet.

But no, the cops deploy the tasers as a quick fix. That action resulted in escalation and a death in this case. The cops should not be given a pass on their decision to use force when no force was required.

[quixotecoyote]

It is impossible to tell what securty people want with you after you smash a computer when they surround you I see, you can not ever make a guess.


Apparently to stick barbs in him and cripple him with electricity. Too bad he wasn't able to guess.