Things that have to be faked, forged or lies in order for there to be an 'Inside Job'

[Undesired Walrus]

I think a collection of certain factual accuracies collected after 9/11 would be a good resource for our truther friends


1 KSM has to be either lying or forced. The recent audio tape of KSM has to be either forced, or him fabricating evidence.
2 Ramzi Bin Al-Sib must have lying about the evidence he showed Yosri Fouda, such as flight manuals in 2002.
3 KSM has to be lying when he told Yosri Fouda 'Yes I did it'. Ditto Ramzi Bin Al-Sib
4 It has to be a coincidence that Ramzi Bin-Al Sib appeared alongside Ziad Jarrah and Marwan Al-Sheihhi in a video made during 1999. It is a coincidence that two of those men were on the flight manifests of planes that flew into the south tower and the ground.
5 Ramzi Bin Al-Sib knows the names for the targets used on 9/11 in messages sent back and forth, as does KSM. (University, Law etc) They must have made their stories up together before their capture. Or this point is mute if the investigators told Ramzi what KSM called them and he 'played along'.
6 It is a coincidence Marwan Al-Sheihhi sung a song about Jihad at the wedding in 1999, as is a coincidence that his friend Ramzi Bin Al-Sib read a palestinian poem about Jihad and called the Jews evil at the same event, and then ended up in the plane that flew into the south tower.
7 It is a coincidence Al-Sheihhi was remembered by a library worker in Germany saying that soon thousands of unbelievers would be dead
8 The German Authorities investigation of the hijackers is fake, forced etc. Ziad Jarrah did not send a fairwell note. Ziad Jarrah did not phone his girlfriend early at 5am on 9/11, or it was a coincidence. It is a coincidence he told his girlfriend that he did not want to leave this world 'The conventional way' and said there was no better way than jihad.
9 It is a coincidence he was found in 2000 in the UAE with an overlay of the Qur'an on his passport, flight manuals and religous tapes. Or made up.
10 It is a coincidence Ramzi Bin Al-Sib tried four times to get a Visa to the US in the years leading up to 9/11.
11 All the above is invalid because the NWO looked for people to inflight harm on America and then 'got rid of them' (As told by Avery) on the planes or something.
12 It is a deliberate ploy by the NWO to choose long flights with a lot of fuel for the four hijacked planes, as they know we will be fooled by Ramzi Bin Al-Sibs admission that Atta chose long flights as they had more fuel.
13 Atta and Jarrah's voiceover on the planes is fake.
14 The 'Get out of here! Mayday! Mayday!' on UA93 is fake.


More please...

[Furi]

Gravity has to be faked

Conservation of Mass/Energy must be faked

most Physical rules and constants outside of the field of Sub Particle and Astrophysical dimensions have to be faked (and some of them within that field) you know to allow for the nukes and space beams etc.

[Mangoose]

The phone call from Jeremy Glick would have to be fake
The phone call from Tom Burnett would have to be fake
The phone call from Mark Bingham would have to be fake
The phone call from Ed Felt would have to be fake
The phone call from Elizabeth Waino would have to be fake
The phone call from Betty Ong would have to be fake

Ad nauseum.

[Undesired Walrus]

-Osama Bin Laden has to be lying when he claims responsibilty. Again and Again.

-It has to be somehow possible to get the hijackers to film suicide videos of themselves and also appear on the passenger manifests on 9/11.

[JAStewart]

Mark Roberts

[firecoins]

The 12,000 plus office workers who escaped the twin towers without seeing any bombs.

The lack of bombs.

Reality would have to be faked.

The hundreds of thousands who saw the events in NY unfold live would have to be lying.

Airplane parts in NY and the Pentagon.

[snagswolf]

The New York Fire Department would have to be complicit in a conspiracy that killed over 300 of their members.

[Boone 870]

Sandy Dahl, wife of Flight 93 pilot Jason Dahl, would have to be lying about hearing her husband's voice on the CVR recording from Flight 93.

[AMTMAN]

The airlines and insurance companies would have to be in on it.

[slyjoe]

DNA evidence.
ATC Radar and Radio evidence.
Clean up crews at ground zero and what they saw.
Damn near everything.

The list is just too long.

[snagswolf]

WTC 7 would have to be wired with explosives, AND random debris from the towers would have to damage it enough to convince firefighters and demolition experts that it was about to fall on its own.

[Mangoose]

Here are all the things that would have to be faked, if a plane didn't crash at the Pentagon. In LCFC, Dylan says, "Those who believe a 757 did hit are fueled by the damage path [light poles 1-5, VDOT camera pole, tree - sheared branches, diesel generator, fence], wreckage outside the building, and eyewitness testimony". So:

The damage to five light poles would have to be faked
The damage to the VDOT pole would have to be faked
The tree on the road would have to have branches sheared off intentionally to suggest where the engine hit
The damage to the generator would have to be faked
The damage to the fence would have to be faked in a similar way
Plane debris would have to be planted on the scene
Eyewitnesses would have to be planted or reliably deceived

To that, I would add:

The FDR would have to be faked and/or planted
The security videos would probably have to be faked
The Doubletree video would have to be faked (if there was a flyover)
The blips on the radar would have to be faked (if nothing was headed towards the building)
The damage to Lt. Kevin Shaeffer's lungs (atomized jet fuel) would have to be faked
Body parts of children would have to be planted at the scene
Body parts that could be identified by DNA to the passengers of the plane would have to be planted, or fool the medical examiners.

[snagswolf]

The people who blew the towers inexplicably waiting until most people were evacuated before they pushed the button.

[twinstead]

A lot of truthers I know have absolutely NO idea just how much evidence there is to support the official story.

To many of them, they just think the government told us it was 19 hijackers, and we believe them because we are mindless sheep. End of story.

[Dave Rogers]

The answer, as always, is "It depends". What scenario are we talking about here? Because whichever choice from a nearly infinite variety of scenarios it may be, the conspiracy theorist will always claim to have been talking about a different one. Everything listed above, for example, could be dismissed by a CT'ist who simply claims that everything played out as is generally understood except that Tim Osman the CIA asset was in charge of everything. Then, as soon as your back's turned, he'll start ranting about thermite.

For CD there's a huge amount that has to be faked, starting with the bowing perimeter columns in the Trinity Church video. For the Pentagon no-planers, there's all the clearly identified bits of 757 in the debris field. For the Shanksville no-planers, there's everything, without exception, that was found at Shanksville. For Ace Baker, there's the very nature of reality. For Max Photon, even that probably isn't enough. It depends.

Dave

[Undesired Walrus]

A lot of truthers I know have absolutely NO idea just how much evidence there is to support the official story.

To many of them, they just think the government told us it was 19 hijackers, and we believe them because we are mindless sheep. End of story.


That's because none of them, Dylan included, have actually read chapters 3-8 in the 9/11 commission. I'm sure Dylan has skimmed it, but he probably just gets to the parts he can poke holes in. It goes into exhaustive detail, and is supported by 2.5 million documents from various agencies around the world, and 6000 hours of audio information.

Truthers often wonder why KSM gave up so much. The point is, that they cannot have read the report, as they would know that KSM does not give up any information that puts Al Qeada at risk, and the report notes this, and has evidence to show he is most likely lying.

[1337m4n]

And don't forget all the people who would have to be "in on it":

--FDNY
--Air traffic controllers
--Protec
--NJ Port Authority
--The inventor of voice morphing technology
--The guys who planted the explosives
--The guys who planted the light poles
--The guys who planted the black box
--The guys who planted all the debris
--Pentagon security guards
--All kinds of first responders

and I'm sure I'm missing a lot more. All these people would have to be lying or silenced.

[Redtail]

Every video camera with audio and/or any audio equipment in the area would have to be confiscated, all of them would have to have the sounds of the CD charges edited out, all of the owners/operators of said equipment would have to be intimidated, paid off, or otherwise in on it so that they never mention that this happened.

[contra]

Not to mention the live news feeds you have had to censor out the sound of the explosives and such.
So that means TV controllers and audio engineers would have had to be in on it too.

[chillzero]

And don't forget all the people who would have to be "in on it":


There's a thread for that list already, and I would hate to have to merge this one with that. I htink they'll do better as separate lists.

[leftysergeant]

The buildings would have to be brought down with explosives that do not cause deformation of the broken ends of columns so that the iron workers (all unionized, from what I can tell) and the fire fighters would not recognize the anomolies.

[stilicho]

The SEC and the CBOE internal investigations into the put options on UAL and AMR were faked. They found out it was Cheney involved and slammed the lid down hard. Deutsche Boerse AG is in on it too. Among a number of relatively neutral onlookers in the financial arena.

Oddly, the CT crew concentrate on AMR and UAL while Citigroup's put options were probably more "suspicious".

Amazing how the Bush Administration killed its own constituents and investors instead of, say, shooting Hillary Clinton and blaming it on al-Qaeda. Are these guys dumb or what?

[Orphia Nay]

There's a thread for that list already, and I would hate to have to merge this one with that. I htink they'll do better as separate lists.

For posterity's sake, here's a link to that thread, called "My favorite list":

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68842

[defaultdotxbe]

The answer, as always, is "It depends". What scenario are we talking about here? Because whichever choice from a nearly infinite variety of scenarios it may be, the conspiracy theorist will always claim to have been talking about a different one. Everything listed above, for example, could be dismissed by a CT'ist who simply claims that everything played out as is generally understood except that Tim Osman the CIA asset was in charge of everything. Then, as soon as your back's turned, he'll start ranting about thermite.

For CD there's a huge amount that has to be faked, starting with the bowing perimeter columns in the Trinity Church video. For the Pentagon no-planers, there's all the clearly identified bits of 757 in the debris field. For the Shanksville no-planers, there's everything, without exception, that was found at Shanksville. For Ace Baker, there's the very nature of reality. For Max Photon, even that probably isn't enough. It depends.

Dave
i was just goign to post somethign liek this

"inside job" is so vague it can mean anything from hologram planes and space lasers to the CIA funding al qeada without OBL even knowing where his money is coming from

[chillzero]

For posterity's sake, here's a link to that thread, called "My favorite list":

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=68842

I meant this one:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=98724

sorry for not clarifying.

[A-Train]

KSM has to be either lying or forced. The recent audio tape of KSM has to be either forced, or him fabricating evidence.
2

3
KSM has to be lying when he told Yosri Fouda 'Yes I did it'. Ditto Ramzi Bin Al-Sib

Nothing coming from the incarcerated KSM has any credibility, since the circumstances of him imprisonment, interrogation, etc. are secret. The 9/11 Commission didn't get to interview KSM; they didn't get to see a video or even see a transcript of his questioning. As detailed by David Ray Griffin in Debunking 9/11 Debunking, the Commission only got to see a summary of the interrogations prepared by a CIA agent! Even Kean & Hamilton admitted this was unsatisfactory.... but they decided to go with this "evidence" anyway-- what other choice did they have?

If you don't understand the worthlessness of testimony from someone under these circumstances, do some reading on Stalin's show trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Trials) of the 1930s. The Nuremberg Trials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre) and the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Israel also fall into this category.


It has to be a coincidence that Ramzi Bin-Al Sib appeared alongside Ziad Jarrah and Marwan Al-Sheihhi in a video made during 1999. It is a coincidence that two of those men were on the flight manifests of planes that flew into the south tower and the ground.
5
Ramzi Bin Al-Sib knows the names for the targets used on 9/11 in messages sent back and forth, as does KSM. (University, Law etc) They must have made their stories up together before their capture. Or this point is mute if the investigators told Ramzi what KSM called them and he 'played along'.
6
It is a coincidence Marwan Al-Sheihhi sung a song about Jihad at the wedding in 1999, as is a coincidence that his friend Ramzi Bin Al-Sib read a palestinian poem about Jihad and called the Jews evil at the same event, and then ended up in the plane that flew into the south tower.
7
It is a coincidence Al-Sheihhi was remembered by a library worker in Germany saying that soon thousands of unbelievers would be dead
8
The German Authorities investigation of the hijackers is fake, forced etc. Ziad Jarrah did not send a fairwell note. Ziad Jarrah did not phone his girlfriend early at 5am on 9/11, or it was a coincidence. It is a coincidence he told his girlfriend that he did not want to leave this world 'The conventional way' and said there was no better way than jihad.
9
It is a coincidence he was found in 2000 in the UAE with an overlay of the Qur'an on his passport, flight manuals and religous tapes. Or made up.
10
It is a coincidence Ramzi Bin Al-Sib tried four times to get a Visa to the US in the years leading up to 9/11.

Your problem with all this analysis is that you don't know if these people did these things, or if they were done by others who had assumed the identities of these people for the purpose of framing them. Furthermore, you don't seem to understand the concept of patsies, that some people can be manipulated to unwittingly do things that later implicate them for a crime.
Atta and Jarrah's voiceover on the planes is fake.
14
The 'Get out of here! Mayday! Mayday!' on UA93 is fake.

You don't have one shred of evidence that it was Atta saying "We have some planes..." on AAL11. It could have easily been the real hijackers, who were not Arab at all. Same goes for the Mayday call on UAL93.

Why was "Atta" so stupid as to key the mike to transmit this over the frequency? But it makes perfect sense if the real hijackers wanted to sound like heavily accented foreigners, i.e. Arabs, for the purpose of framing them.

As for the Mayday call from UAL93: That, like all transmissions over an ATC freq, was recorded. Why aren't we allowed to listen to it, to hear if it sounds like the voice of Jason Dahl or the other pilot? Answer: their loved ones would not recognize the voice. That's why we can hear "We have some planes...." on the internet, but the "Mayday" call is kept from us.

[A-Train]

The phone call from Jeremy Glick would have to be fake
The phone call from Tom Burnett would have to be fake
The phone call from Mark Bingham would have to be fake
The phone call from Ed Felt would have to be fake
The phone call from Elizabeth Waino would have to be fake
The phone call from Betty Ong would have to be fake

Ad nauseum.

What on earth are you talking about? These phone calls are real, and none of them validate the official story of 19 Arabs hijacking planes. None of them!

Tom Burnett reported the hijackers had guns. Ed Felt reported white smoke and an explosion. Betty Ong also reported a gun, and reported hijackers coming from the seats assigned to Isreali commando Daniel Lewin, as well as one Edmund Glazer. The rest of them more or less reported hijackings carried out by "Middle Eastern looking" men armed with knives.

Taken as a whole, the phone calls prove that the planes were indeed hijacked by dark-skinned men who had knives. This may suggest the official story, but it can just as well point to a hijacking by gun wielding professionals, some of whom were playing the role of Arabs for the purpose of framing Arabs for the 9/11 attacks.

[Arus808]

Nothing coming from the incarcerated KSM has any credibility, since the circumstances of him imprisonment, interrogation, etc. are secret.


Stop spreading this lie. KSM has admitted on video BEFORE his capture, that he was apart of the 911 planning.

What part of "before" do you have a hard time understanding?

[Good Lt]

9-11 has to be an inside job or faked for it to be an inside job.

;)

[Arus808]

What on earth are you talking about? These phone calls are real, and none of them validate the official story of 19 Arabs hijacking planes. None of them!

that's a lie. many of the callers described their hijackers. many of the callers who knew there was hijack didn't happen to be in the part of the plane where the highjackers were.

Tom Burnett reported the hijackers had guns.
which the hijackers could have told the passengers they had. They also reported to having a bomb as on one of the planes. does that mean that the hijackers were stating that was true? No. Its an intimidation tactic.

Like bank robbers going into a bank with their hand in their pocket and claming to have a gun on them, but none was ever seen.



Ed Felt reported white smoke and an explosion.

Oh, I could say alot of things can cause an explosion and white smoke. Ever see what happens when a fire extinguisher goes off?

Betty Ong also reported a gun
dont twist her words. She was told by the hijackers they had gun SHE never saw a gun.


and reported hijackers coming from the seats assigned to Isreali commando Daniel Lewin, as well as one Edmund Glazer. The rest of them more or less reported hijackings carried out by "Middle Eastern looking" men armed with knives.

Oh gee, let me guess, she could have been mistaken maybe? The passengers moved around when the planes take off?

On a nearly empty flight, you dont hitnkg people move from their seats to grab ones that are empty and have no one sitting next to them.

Gee, have you ever flown before?

Taken as a whole, the phone calls prove that the planes were indeed hijacked by dark-skinned men who had knives. This may suggest the official story, but it can just as well point to a hijacking by gun wielding professionals, some of whom were playing the role of Arabs for the purpose of framing Arabs for the 9/11 attacks.

Stop with your anti-semitic BS. THERE is more than enough evidence, beyond those phone calls tha prove those 19 men were the hijackers aboard those planes.

[Firestone]

Betty Ong also reported a gun, and reported hijackers coming from the seats assigned to Isreali commando Daniel Lewin, as well as one Edmund Glazer. You lie once again, A-Train.

I have posted this at least three times, but I gladly repost it.

The story that Betty Ong gave seat numbers of the hijackers not corresponding to the Al Qaeda members is based on one uncorroborated story in the Boston Globe.

Actually, the full transcript of her phone call shows that she did give the correct seat numbers.

Ong also named Daniel Lewin as the murdered passenger, so your claim that Lewin was a hijacker is a stupid and outrageous lie.

Details in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2369639&postcount=17).

[Undesired Walrus]

Nothing coming from the incarcerated KSM has any credibility, since the circumstances of him imprisonment, interrogation, etc. are secret. The 9/11 Commission didn't get to interview KSM; they didn't get to see a video or even see a transcript of his questioning. As detailed by David Ray Griffin in Debunking 9/11 Debunking, the Commission only got to see a summary of the interrogations prepared by a CIA agent! Even Kean & Hamilton admitted this was unsatisfactory.... but they decided to go with this "evidence" anyway-- what other choice did they have?

....But the 9/11 commission got 6000 hours of audio tapes, and 2.5 million pages of documents.


Your problem with all this analysis is that you don't know if these people did these things, or if they were done by others who had assumed the identities of these people for the purpose of framing them. Furthermore, you don't seem to understand the concept of patsies, that some people can be manipulated to unwittingly do things that later implicate them for a crime.

Ah, the old truther tactic. If something doesn't fit with my belief, it must be fake.

The question is, do you have any evidence whatsoever that these people did not do these things? You need to produce that before you can discredit their statements.

As for the Mayday call from UAL93: That, like all transmissions over an ATC freq, was recorded. Why aren't we allowed to listen to it, to hear if it sounds like the voice of Jason Dahl or the other pilot? Answer: their loved ones would not recognize the voice. That's why we can hear "We have some planes...." on the internet, but the "Mayday" call is kept from us.

No, you can actually hear 'mayday', 'mayday'. Maybe you should do some research.

Their loved ones have heard their voices, their last groans and last cries, and recognised them.

[A-Train]

You lie once again, A-Train.

I have posted this at least three times, but I gladly repost it.

The story that Betty Ong gave seat numbers of the hijackers not corresponding to the Al Qaeda members is based on one uncorroborated story in the Boston Globe.

Actually, the full transcript of her phone call shows that she did give the correct seat numbers.

Ong also named Daniel Lewin as the murdered passenger, so your claim that Lewin was a hijacker is a stupid and outrageous lie.

Details in this post (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2369639&postcount=17).

You know, Firestone, the difference between you and me is that you start with the official story as presented by the Commission, and then work your way backwards; I start with the raw evidence and work forwards. You are entitled to believe the air-brushed official story of this phone call if you wish, but when you start calling me a liar, it's time to respond and nip this myth of yours in the bud.

First of all, the story in the Boston Globe is not "uncorroborated." It is based on an interview with Craig Marquis, who actually took Ong's call. He recalled the seat numbers that had been relayed to him by Ong herself, which included the seats of Lewin and Glazer. That's about as corroborated as you can get-- a first hand account from someone who spoke to an eyewitness in real time.

I have read through the post of yours that you refer to, including the passages from the Commission Report, and I invite others to do so. I don't see any evidence of a "transcript" of Ong's call. You seem to have decided that the conclusions drawn by Nydia Gonzalez are equivalent to what happened on the plane. That's a far cry from saying Ong reported this or that.

From your post (bolding yours)

Also at 8:33 A.M., Gonzalez received a report from Ong providing the first indication of a fatality on board. Gonzalez passed the information on to Marquis at 8:34 A.M. as follows:
"They think they might have a fatality on the flight. One of our passengers, possibly on 9B, Levin or Lewis, might have been fatally stabbed."
...
8:35 A.M. Gonzalez confirmed the details of a report by Ong regarding the identity of one of the hijackers: "He's the one that's in the-he's in the cockpit. Okay you said Tom Sukani? Okay-Okay and he was in 10B. Okay, okay, so he's one of the persons that are in the cockpit. And as far as weapons, all they have are just knives?"Sorry, but no reasonable person can read the above and come to the conclusion that Ong reported Lewin being stabbed. This is the conclusion that was drawn by some employees who took this call and Sweeney's. It is understandable that they could not conceive of an "American" businessman like Lewin supposedly was would kill an Arab, so they naturally decided the reverse must have happened.

In addition, it is silly that Ong herself would have named Lewin as a victim. How is a flight attendant going to know the names of people on the flight under such circumstances?

[A-Train]

No, you can actually hear 'mayday', 'mayday'. Maybe you should do some research.

Their loved ones have heard their voices, their last groans and last cries, and recognised them.

Oh really? Well I guess since you've obviously done your research, you can clue me in by telling me how you know this. You know, by providing a source? Maybe you can also clarify whose voice it was saying "Mayday"-- was it Jason Dahl's or Leroy Homer's?

All I know is that the voice of "Atta" can be heard (http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/nation/061704-12s.htm) on the internet; while the "Mayday" from UAL93 cannot.

[pomeroo]

You know, Firestone, the difference between you and me is that you start with the official story as presented by the Commission, and then work your way backwards; I start with the raw evidence and work forwards. You are entitled to believe the air-brushed official story of this phone call if you wish, but when you start calling me a liar, it's time to respond and nip this myth of yours in the bud.

First of all, the story in the Boston Globe is not "uncorroborated." It is based on an interview with Craig Marquis, who actually took Ong's call. He recalled the seat numbers that had been relayed to him by Ong herself, which included the seats of Lewin and Glazer. That's about as corroborated as you can get-- a first hand account from someone who spoke to an eyewitness in real time.

I have read through the post of yours that you refer to, including the passages from the Commission Report, and I invite others to do so. I don't see any evidence of a "transcript" of Ong's call. You seem to have decided that the conclusions drawn by Nydia Gonzalez are equivalent to what happened on the plane. That's a far cry from saying Ong reported this or that.

From your post (bolding yours)

Sorry, but no reasonable person can read the above and come to the conclusion that Ong reported Lewin being stabbed. This is the conclusion that was drawn by some employees who took this call and Sweeney's. It is understandable that they could not conceive of an "American" businessman like Lewin supposedly was would kill an Arab, so they naturally decided the reverse must have happened.

In addition, it is silly that Ong herself would have named Lewin as a victim. How is a flight attendant going to know the names of people on the flight under such circumstances?


You are the person whose imaginary super-commandos planned to exit the doomed airliners through the landing gear, so it is never possible to ascertain exactly what you're trying to suggest. Are you now pretending that flight attendant Ong didn't have a list of passenger names? Are you pretending that Lewin stabbed the jihadist? I suspect that your latest invention has many of us confused.


http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?entity=betty_ong

[Alt+F4]

All I know is that the voice of "Atta" can be heard (http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/nation/061704-12s.htm) on the internet; while the "Mayday" from UAL93 cannot.

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are things only true/real when they appear on the Internet? There are no photos of my birth on the Internet or elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure I'm alive.

[Undesired Walrus]

Oh really? Well I guess since you've obviously done your research, you can clue me in by telling me how you know this. You know, by providing a source? Maybe you can also clarify whose voice it was saying "Mayday"-- was it Jason Dahl's or Leroy Homer's?

All I know is that the voice of "Atta" can be heard (http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/nation/061704-12s.htm) on the internet; while the "Mayday" from UAL93 cannot.

I recommend you first go through the moussaui trial, and you will find both their mayday call on a zip file entitled 'Flights', and Ziad Jarrah informing the crew they had a bomb on board.

When the FDR was played in court, the wife of Dahl heard his moaning in pain on the floor, and mentioned she could not tell Paul Greengrass of this fact, when he incorrectly noted in United 93 that Dahl died instantly. She knew otherwise.

Do your research, it is embarrassing.

[leftysergeant]

All of A-Train's posts would suggest that there are other persons than militant muslims willing to do suicide missions. To date, I have not heard of an american terrorist not a part of some white nationalist group who is willing to do so. nor do I recall any substantiated claim that Mossad is in the habit of doing so.

I guess that leaves us with radical Muslims as suspects.

[A-Train]

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Are things only true/real when they appear on the Internet? There are no photos of my birth on the Internet or elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure I'm alive.

Both of these transmissions were made over the ATC frequency. Therefore they were recorded.

I do not believe either one of these transmissions were made by who the official story says they were. I believe they were both made by the real hijackers.

In the case of "Atta" from AAL11, I find it hard to believe he would have keyed the mike to transmit his message to the passengers over the ATC frequency. I find it more likely the real hijacker intentionally broadcast over the frequency, using a bogus Arab accent and pigeon English, to frame Arabs as the hijackers.

In the case of the "Mayday" call from UAL93, I suspect that too was made by a hijacker, trying to feign a cockpit struggle with knife-wielding amateurs, when in reality the pilots were already dead, shot in the head with the guns Tom Burnett saw.

The point is this: They can release the recording of Atta, because no one can credibly stand up and say, "I knew him and that's not his voice..." Atta is an Egyptian. Even if Atta's father-- you know, the man who said that his son was afraid of flying, and had been framed by the Mossad (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=kite&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go)-- came out and said it was not his son's voice, he would be ignored; or it would be claimed the voice was Alomari's, Alshehhri's, etc.

But if they released the "Mayday" tape, it would be heard by many Americans who knew Dahl and Homer. These people could say, "that's not his voice," and the official story would be in big trouble.

And that's why I'm suspicious that only one of the two transmissions has been released.

[twinstead]

B
The point is this: They can release the recording of Atta, because no one can credibly stand up and say, "I knew him and that's not his voice..." Atta is an Egyptian. Even if Atta's father-- you know, the man who said that his son was afraid of flying, and had been framed by the Mossad (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/searchResults.jsp?searchtext=kite&events=on&entities=on&articles=on&topics=on&timelines=on&projects=on&titles=on&descriptions=on&dosearch=on&search=Go)-- came out and said it was not his son's voice, he would be ignored; or it would be claimed the voice was Alomari's, Alshehhri's, etc.


Ah, you must be one of those people who believe the parents of those accused of crimes who refuse to accept that their loved-one could EVER commit such a horrible crime, so that must mean they were framed.

That's just naive.

[bynmdsue]

What the hell is "pigeon" English?

[Slayhamlet]

Ah, you must be one of those people who believe the parents of those accused of crimes who refuse to accept that their loved-one could EVER commit such a horrible crime, so that must mean they were framed.

That's just naive.

Atta's father (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/07/19/atta.father.terror/index.html) sounds like such a reasonable fellow, doesn't he?

[twinstead]

Atta's father (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/07/19/atta.father.terror/index.html) sounds like such a reasonable fellow, doesn't he?

Fine upstanding citizen he is...

Yup. So much so that any reasonable person could rationalize using his words as evidence that Atta wasn't one of the hijackers...:rolleyes:

[PhantomWolf]

Add in the Secret Service Logs, the Whitehouse Phong Logs, the NEADS tapes....

[twinstead]

What the hell is "pigeon" English?

What language do you think pigeons in the US, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand and Canada speak, anyway?

[PhantomWolf]

What the hell is "pigeon" English?

It's a mix of languages, usually a native tongue and English, the major one was a mix of English, Portugese and Chinese that evolved in usage with Chinese traders.

Here's a list of Papua New Guinean Pidgin words (http://www.june29.com/HLP/lang/pidgin.html).

[Slayhamlet]

It's a mix of languages, usually a native tongue and English, the major one was a mix of English, Portugese and Chinese that evolved in usage with Chinese traders.

Here's a list of Papua New Guinean Pidgin words (http://www.june29.com/HLP/lang/pidgin.html).

I think he knows that. He was making fun of the misspelling.

[PhantomWolf]

I think he knows that. He was making fun of the misspelling.

Well with only 16 posts under his/her belt and no smilies of any kind, I have no idea if this is the case or not, so opted on the side of caution. ;)

[bynmdsue]

Ohhh,Pidgin English. A-Train's mistake reminds me of someone repeating something he overheard at a party,but not completely understanding what's going on.

Isn't this "the Mossad exiting the landing gear" fellow?

[Slayhamlet]

Ohhh,Pidgin English. A-Train's mistake reminds me of someone repeating something he overheard at a party,but not completely understanding what's going on.

Isn't this "the Mossad exiting the landing gear" fellow?

Yep. He's funny. In the point and laugh at kind of way, I mean.

[A-Train]

What the hell is "pigeon" English?

Examples:

“Ladies and gentlemen, here is the captain, please sit down. Keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb aboard.” -"Ziad Jarrah" from UAL93

"We have some planes....." -"Mohammed Atta" from AAL11

Now, are we really to believe both of these guys had such equally crummy English? And that they both, coincidentally, pressed the wrong button so as to broadcast on the frequency, instead of to the passengers in the cabin? And isn't it kind of silly for the hijacker/pilot to speak to the passengers in this way, when the hijackers in the cabin can just speak directly to them?

Or was this just a ploy by the real hijackers, who knew exactly which button they were pressing, to advertise to the ATC controllers, "look, these planes have been hijacked by a bunch of A-rabs with atrocious grammar..."

I'll choose the latter. If you think about it, you will too.

[PhantomWolf]

Well since the two knew each other very well and likely used the same materials to train with, I wouldn't at all be surprised if they both made the same mistake because they just learned it wrong and one passed the mistake to the other. We're not talking about completely separate individuals who randomly made the same mistake. The same is likely true of their English, since they would have spoken it together in practice, they likely would not have picked up incorrect usages.

[Boone 870]

A-Train, Why don't you ask Apathoid or AMTMAN if it's as simple as pushing the wrong button when attempting to broadcast in the passenger cabin?

[Corsair 115]

“Ladies and gentlemen, here is the captain, please sit down. Keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb aboard.” -"Ziad Jarrah" from UAL93

"We have some planes....." -"Mohammed Atta" from AAL11

Now, are we really to believe both of these guys had such equally crummy English? And that they both, coincidentally, pressed the wrong button so as to broadcast on the frequency, instead of to the passengers in the cabin?Are we really to believe that during the Battle of Midway a Japanese scout plane found the American aircraft carriers but when its crew went to transmit the location their radio wasn't working? That's far too much of a coincidence, obviously the Japanese lost the battle because it was an inside job.

[Reheat]

A-Train, Why don't you ask Apathoid or AMTMAN if it's as simple as pushing the wrong button when attempting to broadcast in the passenger cabin?

He's not really interested in the truth as it was thoroughly discussed and explained in detail to him just a couple of months ago. He's only interested in the "troof".

EVERYONE who flies has screwed-up the use of an Intercom Panel. It is not extremely uncommon particularly by someone who is new to the equipment.

There's one consistent thing about A-Train, which is also true of several other troofers, as well. No matter how many times he's "slam dunked" on one of his fantasies, he goes away only to return later with the same junk, over and over again.....:mad:

ETA: IIRC, Apathoid even posted photos of the Intercom Panel to show how easy it was to either place it in the wrong position or forget where it was placed when transmitting. Nah, not good enough for "teh troof."

[Undesired Walrus]

The stupid is too much!

[leftysergeant]

Examples:

“Ladies and gentlemen, here is the captain, please sit down. Keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb aboard.” -"Ziad Jarrah" from UAL93

"We have some planes....." -"Mohammed Atta" from AAL11

Now, are we really to believe both of these guys had such equally crummy English?

I believe that was one of the criticisms leveled against both of them at flight school. Since English is the lingua franka of aviation, I am sure most people would think it a significant issue. Perhaps some of the instructors and classmates were not concerned just with their ability to follow instructions, but to understand or ask for instructions. No, the way they talked was not unusual. They probably spoke far better English than does an American any other language. (It doesn't take much effort.)

And that they both, coincidentally, pressed the wrong button so as to broadcast on the frequency, instead of to the passengers in the cabin?


And this strikes you as odd because....?

And isn't it kind of silly for the hijacker/pilot to speak to the passengers in this way, when the hijackers in the cabin can just speak directly to them?


Are you going to give more respect to the dweeb standing there among you or to the lunatic who has just taken his life into his hands and cannot be reached to bring him under your control? You have to understand that in tense situations, where you have siezed power in an improper manner, image means a lot. When you're sitting in the cockpit with the stick or yoke or whatever in your hands, you kind of have symbolic as well as actual power.


Or was this just a ploy by the real hijackers, who knew exactly which button they were pressing, to advertise to the ATC controllers, "look, these planes have been hijacked by a bunch of A-rabs with atrocious grammar..."

Strategicly, that would be a stupid move when you are likely to be intercepted on recognition before you are anywhere near your target. Surprise matters in an operation of this sort. Coming in without any warning at all would be so much more disorienting to the targetted people than would the anticipation of the impact. The more dazed and surprised and uninformed the target is the more effective the terror induced by the act.

I'll choose the latter. If you think about it, you will too.

I think not. I am role playing this in my head to see how I might do it differently. (I do this professionally, you know.)

The only thing I can see wrong with the operation, in terms of the stated mission, was not concentrating more on communications procedures.

[Firestone]

You know, Firestone, the difference between you and me is that you start with the official story as presented by the Commission, and then work your way backwards; I start with the raw evidence and work forwards. You are entitled to believe the air-brushed official story of this phone call if you wish, but when you start calling me a liar, it's time to respond and nip this myth of yours in the bud.

First of all, the story in the Boston Globe is not "uncorroborated." It is based on an interview with Craig Marquis, who actually took Ong's call. He recalled the seat numbers that had been relayed to him by Ong herself, which included the seats of Lewin and Glazer. That's about as corroborated as you can get-- a first hand account from someone who spoke to an eyewitness in real time.

I have read through the post of yours that you refer to, including the passages from the Commission Report, and I invite others to do so. I don't see any evidence of a "transcript" of Ong's call. You seem to have decided that the conclusions drawn by Nydia Gonzalez are equivalent to what happened on the plane. That's a far cry from saying Ong reported this or that.

From your post (bolding yours)

Sorry, but no reasonable person can read the above and come to the conclusion that Ong reported Lewin being stabbed. This is the conclusion that was drawn by some employees who took this call and Sweeney's. It is understandable that they could not conceive of an "American" businessman like Lewin supposedly was would kill an Arab, so they naturally decided the reverse must have happened.

In addition, it is silly that Ong herself would have named Lewin as a victim. How is a flight attendant going to know the names of people on the flight under such circumstances?Oy vey!

It took you nine months to finally answer!
But instead of a sweet little baby, all you managed to produce is confirmation of what I wrote then:

No, you are not "reporting what Betty Ong reported in her phone call from AAL11".

You are cherry picking information and ignoring everything that doesn't suit you.

There is no "raw evidence" whatsoever for your silly "Israeli parachutists"-phantasy. Prejudice is not "raw evidence", dear A-Train.

Not only is your silly "Israeli parachutists"-phantasy physically impossible (as people who actually know what a Boeing 767 looks like have told you many times), it is also known that at least three of the four flight were not on automatic pilot when they crashed.
The video's of some of the hijackers shown by Al-Jazeera are further raw evidence of who did it.
And of course we have poor Betty Ong reporting that "Levin or Lewis" was stabbed. You simply ignoring it doesn't make it go away.

In short, my conclusion from nine months ago still stands:

You have nothing, A-Train, but your delusions.