Fake Ron Paul Currency seized

[Cleon]

Linky (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/16/illegal-ron-paul-currency-seized/):


EVANSVILLE, Indiana (AP) — Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/candidates/ron.paul.html).


Agents also took records, computers and froze the bank accounts at the "Liberty Dollar" headquarters during the Thursday raid, Bernard von NotHaus, founder of the National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act & Internal Revenue Code, said in a posting on the group's Web site.


The organization, which is critical of the Federal Reserve, has repeatedly clashed with the federal government, which contends that the gold, silver and copper coins it produces are illegal. NORFED claims its Liberty Dollars are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value like the U.S. dollar.



I find it amusing that the Paul campaign seems to be attracting the real nutbars--the Twoofers, the neo-Nazis (Stormfront), now these bozos.

Look, Paul people, if you want people to accept Paul as a serious candidate--he's gotta distance himself from his base of supporters. 'Cause right now, his base of supporters make the Larouchites seem reasonable.

[Oliver]

Linky (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/16/illegal-ron-paul-currency-seized/):

I find it amusing that the Paul campaign seems to be attracting the real nutbars--the Twoofers, the neo-Nazis (Stormfront), now these bozos.

Look, Paul people, if you want people to accept Paul as a serious candidate--he's gotta distance himself from his base of supporters. 'Cause right now, his base of supporters make the Larouchites seem reasonable.


So what? Paul doesn't have anything to do with the Liberty-Dollar
nor the Stormyfronties. Why even start a new thread among the
10 other Paul-Thread's? :p

[Donal]

He took money from Stormfront.

He's a regular guest on the Alex Jones show, another Stormfront supporter.

I can give you that Paul doesn't really have a clue about a lot of the people that are sending him the checks he cashes. Of course, that is just another way he is like all the other politicians.

[Darth Rotor]

He took money from Stormfront.

He's a regular guest on the Alex Jones show, another Stormfront supporter.

I can give you that Paul doesn't really have a clue about a lot of the people that are sending him the checks he cashes.
Really? Money from Stormfront?

Do you have something more than an assertion to back that up? That's an interesting statement.
Of course, that is just another way he is like all the other politicians.
I'll bet the over on that.

DR

[JEROME DA GNOME]

How is the currency Fake?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Look, Paul people, if you want people to accept Paul as a serious candidate--he's gotta distance himself from his base of supporters. 'Cause right now, his base of supporters make the Larouchites seem reasonable.

You look desperate!

You are claiming that gold is fake currency!

Was anyone here charged with presenting FAKE currency?

If not your, OP title is a LIE.

Have you checked into his pedophilia cannibalistic habits?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Curious that the Feds would seize property that was being used to fight the monopoly of currency.

[WildCat]

How is the currency Fake?
Either it's a bad copy of coinage Paul put out himself, or Cleon used "fake" instead of "illegal".

[WildCat]

BTW, which of those seized metals "are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value"?

Last I checked, value of gold, silver, and copper have been pretty volatile.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

BTW, which of those seized metals "are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value"?

Last I checked, value of gold, silver, and copper have been pretty volatile.

When you hold gold it rises with the fall of the dollar. The gold in your pocket today will retain purchasing power over time; were as the Fed dollar loses purchasing power over time.

[WildCat]

The gold in your pocket today will retain purchasing power over time; were as the Fed dollar loses purchasing power over time.
The price of gold has been known to fall, and few keep dollars under their pillows. Dollars get invested, whereas gold just sits somewhere while it's fortunes rest on the ebbs and flows of the commodity markets.

[ChristineR]

The $20 coins were redeemable for 15 USD worth of silver or less than 20 green paper USD. They were selling their coins to their buddies for less than 20 USD and urging people to spend them on 20 USD worth of goods and services, and then offering to redeem them from irate merchants for less than 20 USD.

The coins were designed to confuse people and into thinking that they were legal tender; which they are not. Had they been designed to look like anything but actual US coins they would have been legal.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The $20 coins were redeemable for 15 USD worth of silver or less than 20 green paper USD. They were selling their coins to their buddies for less than 20 USD and urging people to spend them on 20 USD worth of goods and services, and then offering to redeem them from irate merchants for less than 20 USD.

The coins were designed to confuse people and into thinking that they were legal tender; which they are not. Had they been designed to look like anything but actual US coins they would have been legal.

Really?

What were they charged with?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The price of gold has been known to fall, and few keep dollars under their pillows. Dollars get invested, whereas gold just sits somewhere while it's fortunes rest on the ebbs and flows of the commodity markets.

Do you and I have the right to trade goods between each other?

Do you and I determine the value within that trade?

Gold is a reasonable way to save. Saving dollar is foolish.

[brodski]

Really?

What were they charged with?

Apparently violating federal bans on circulating alternative currency, mail fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering.

[WildCat]

Do you and I have the right to trade goods between each other?

Do you and I determine the value within that trade?
Nothing to do with the story at hand.

Gold is a reasonable way to save. Saving dollar is foolish.
Suppose you bought $10,000 in gold in January of 1980. What was it worth 20 years later? Now compare/contrast to anything from the DJIA or even a lowly bank CD over that time period.

Now, you were saying...?

[ChristineR]

Really?

What were they charged with?

All that info came from their website. See http://www.libertydollar.org/legal/pdf/paper_legal.pdf Also read about their "associate" program to learn how you can get $20 for less than $20 and "How to Spend" for tips on how to deceive people into believing that the coins are actually worth 20 USD. The exchange of the 20 LD for less than 20 USD you can read about here: http://www.libertydollar.org/ld/faqs/convertibility.htm

[Pardalis]

How is the currency Fake?

Well it had Ron Paul's face on it for starters.

[ChristineR]

The virtues of precious metals is a complex subject, but the fact is that the $20 coin had only $15 worth of metal value. The government apparently had no objection to the paper notes as they were not mistaken for real dollars. There are many private currencies; the most widely used is probably the Ithaca Hour (http://http://www.ithacahours.org//) which is worth whatever the buyer and the seller agree upon. The coins were FAKE in the sense that they were designed to be deceptive. Had they called them Zorkmids and stayed away from confusing phrases like LIBERTY and TRUST IN GOD then they'd still be in business.

[Kirk Olson]

First they ignore you...

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Nothing to do with the story at hand.

Yet relevant to what you wrote.


Suppose you bought $10,000 in gold in January of 1980. What was it worth 20 years later? Now compare/contrast to anything from the DJIA or even a lowly bank CD over that time period.

Now, you were saying...?

Why not 1976?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

First they ignore you...

Bingo!

[brodski]

Why not 1976?

Because that wouldn't make his point. His point is that the perceived value of shiny- but largely useless- metals can fluctuate to the detriment of their collectors.

[ChristineR]

Look, if you think you can make money trading in precious metals, go for it. Just don't give someone an ounce of silver and try to tell them it's worth $20, 'cause it ain't.

[WildCat]

Why not 1976?
I start it when Volcker ushered in the current practices of the Fed.

Notice the price runup prior to 1980 Jerome? This was the last time the gold nuts ran up the price of gold. But that was in response to double-digit inflation. A similar surge has happened recently, I wouldn't expect the price of gold to stay that high for very long.

But you put your money where you want.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Look, if you think you can make money trading in precious metals, go for it. Just don't give someone an ounce of silver and try to tell them it's worth $20, 'cause it ain't.

I think their attempt was to disrupt the monopoly that the private government protected banks have on the trade between individuals.

[WildCat]

I think their attempt was to disrupt the monopoly that the private government protected banks have on the trade between individuals.
There's where you go wrong.

[Ravenwood]

Lets see, US code says in article § 5103. Legal tender
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

And according to the US mint:
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/index.cfm?flash=yes&action=press_release&id=710
-from the above website:
"Under 18 U.S.C. § 486, it is a Federal crime to pass, or attempt to pass, any coins of gold or silver intended for use as current money except as authorized by law. According to the NORFED website, "Liberty merchants" are encouraged to accept NORFED "Liberty Dollar" medallions and offer them as change in sales transactions of merchandise or services."

Looks like they are up the creek on this one & the feds have all the evidence they need...

[JEROME DA GNOME]

But you put your money where you want.

You know that money is just a recite for past labor and trade?

Money should be nothing more than a convenience of transaction.

Those that profit from others transactions are little more than larcenists.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Lets see, US code says in article § 5103. Legal tender
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.

What you need to do to validate your thinking here is to find the definition of "debt" in this part of the code.

[WildCat]

You know that money is just a recite for past labor and trade?
Yes.

Money should be nothing more than a convenience of transaction.
Yes, so why do you want to use an inflation hedge as money?

Those that profit from others transactions are little more than larcenists.
Who does this, and are they adding value to the transaction?

[ChristineR]

I think their attempt was to disrupt the monopoly that the private government protected banks have on the trade between individuals.

No, it wasn't. Their "attempt" was to make them and their friends money by getting $20 worth of goods for $15 worth of silver. Had they simply made a private currency which was clearly not legal tender (like the Ithaca Hours) they would still be in business. There are many such private currencies and some, like the Hours, are specifically and openly designed to interfere with the normal practices of commerce and federal reserve monopoly. They were simply hiding their counterfeiting behind political rhetoric so that they would have someone to blame once they were thrown in jail where they belong and their friends were stuck with a bunch of $20 coins that are only worth $15.

[Ravenwood]

What you need to do to validate your thinking here is to find the definition of "debt" in this part of the code.

“Debt” is defined in paragraph (12) [enacted as (11)] as a liability on a claim. The terms “debt” and “claim” are coextensive: a creditor has a “claim” against the debtor; the debtor owes a “debt” to the creditor. This definition of “debt” and the definition of “claim” on which it is based, proposed 11 U.S.C. 101 (4), does not include a transaction such as a policy loan on an insurance policy. Under that kind of transaction, the debtor is not liable to the insurance company for repayment; the amount owed is merely available to the company for setoff against any benefits that become payable under the policy. As such, the loan is not a claim (it is not a right to payment) that the company can assert against the estate; nor is the debtor’s obligation a debt (a liability on a claim) that will be discharged under proposed 11 U.S.C. 523 or 524.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

“Debt” is defined in paragraph (12) [enacted as (11)] as a liability on a claim. The terms “debt” and “claim” are coextensive: a creditor has a “claim” against the debtor; the debtor owes a “debt” to the creditor. This definition of “debt” and the definition of “claim” on which it is based, proposed 11 U.S.C. 101 (4), does not include a transaction such as a policy loan on an insurance policy. Under that kind of transaction, the debtor is not liable to the insurance company for repayment; the amount owed is merely available to the company for setoff against any benefits that become payable under the policy. As such, the loan is not a claim (it is not a right to payment) that the company can assert against the estate; nor is the debtor’s obligation a debt (a liability on a claim) that will be discharged under proposed 11 U.S.C. 523 or 524.

Is this the same code?

[ZenFountain]

It gets dug out of the ground in Africa, or someplace. Then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility. Anyone watching from Mars would be scratching their head.

Warren Buffet on the economic productivity of gold.

[ZenFountain]

How to use the Liberty Dollar:

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

:boggled:

[Solitaire]

Bingo!

Rats! I was just two spaces away from winning on Mohandas Gandhi Quotes bingo.

Anway... I know Ron Paul dollars are worthless. But I wonder how many Sam Brownbacks (http://www.brownback.com/s/) I have to spend to get a Gisele Bundchen. (http://english.sabah.com.tr/9906654AAD1A49DBB75F8157551A0084.html)

[WildCat]

Warren Buffet on the economic productivity of gold.
Basically, it's "Oooh! Shiny!"

Say that in a Kelly Bundy voice.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I really don't get setting currency values on the Gold Standard. Why not the Platinum Standard? The Oil Standard? The Prostitute Standard? What makes gold so uber special?

[WildCat]

What makes gold so uber special?
If it wasn't special, would leprechauns hide it?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The Prostitute Standard?

SWEET!!!

[Oliver]

This is from the Washington Post Blog:

A Paul campaign spokeswoman, Kerri Price, said yesterday that while Paul also supports abolishing the Federal Reserve, the campaign "does not have any affiliation with Liberty Dollars at all." von NotHaus confirmed this, saying that he knows Paul because they "move in the same circles" but that he had expressly not talked with Paul about his plans for the special coins so as not to violate federal election rules.

Source: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/16/post_203.html?hpid=topnews

[brodski]

I really don't get setting currency values on the Gold Standard. Why not the Platinum Standard? The Oil Standard? The Prostitute Standard? What makes gold so uber special?

Nah, you want the golem standard.

[Kerberos]

SWEET!!!

It seems that way right up till the point where you consider how the 5 or 10 cent prostitutes must look like. I'll stick to coins and bills, that you very much.

[Oliver]

First they ignore you...


:D Exactly! And we passed the "ridicule you" stage as well...
Ron Paul for president 2008! :)

Oh - and Ron Paul has nothing to do with the RP-Dollar:

A Paul campaign spokeswoman, Kerri Price, said yesterday that while Paul also supports abolishing the Federal Reserve, the campaign "does not have any affiliation with Liberty Dollars at all." von NotHaus confirmed this, saying that he knows Paul because they "move in the same circles" but that he had expressly not talked with Paul about his plans for the special coins so as not to violate federal election rules.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/11/16/post_203.html?hpid=topnews

[Cleon]

:D Exactly! And we passed the "ridicule you" stage as well...
Ron Paul for president 2008! :)

With Lyndon Larouche as his running mate! It could happen! :rolleyes:


Oh - and Ron Paul has nothing to do with the RP-Dollar:Yes, you just posted that same quote three posts ago. Posting it again in the same thread accomplishes nothing other than wasting bandwidth and disk space.

It still doesn't detract from what I said: if the Paul campaign wants to be taken seriously, he really needs to distance himself from the crackpots. Instead, he seems to be depending on them for his base of support.

[WildCat]

It seems that way right up till the point where you consider how the 5 or 10 cent prostitutes must look like. I'll stick to coins and bills, that you very much.
Once at work I was offered the services of 2 prostitutes... for $3 total.

I guess that would make them $1.50 hookers, and it was overpriced believe me!

[Oliver]

With Lyndon Larouche as his running mate! It could happen! :rolleyes:

Yes, you just posted that same quote three posts ago. Posting it again in the same thread accomplishes nothing other than wasting bandwidth and disk space.

It still doesn't detract from what I said: if the Paul campaign wants to be taken seriously, he really needs to distance himself from the crackpots. Instead, he seems to be depending on them for his base of support.


I apologize for not realizing that I already posted the WP-Blog-Article.
And he does distance himself from "crackpots", Truthers, Neo-Nazis
Coin-Makers etc...

So which groups are you referring to?

[brodski]

:D Exactly! And we passed the "ridicule you" stage as well...
Ron Paul for president 2008! :)


OMG, I've just realised, first we ignored Dylan Avery, then we ridiculed him...

Being ignored and then ridiculed is no indicator of success. I am reminded of a quote abort wearing eh mantle of Galileo.

[Cleon]

And he does distance himself from "crackpots", Truthers, Neo-Nazis
Coin-Makers etc...

Not really, no.

[Oliver]

OMG, I've just realised, first we ignored Dylan Avery, then we ridiculed him...

Being ignored and then ridiculed is no indicator of success. I am reminded of a quote abort wearing eh mantle of Galileo.


Ehm, no. The CT-Subforum always ridiculed Dylan. There's a difference. :p

Not really, no.


How so? He clearly says that he doesn't believe in Inside Jobs,
his Campaign and the RP-Dollar guy both stated that they don't
have anything in common. And Ron's stance on racism is contrary
to the Stormfronties....

What's left?

[brodski]

Ehm, no. The CT-Subforum always ridiculed Dylan. There's a difference. :p


Yes, but prior to the LC thread, we ignored him.

[Oliver]

Yes, but prior to the LC thread, we ignored him.


No, the Forum didn't know who he is prior to the thread. There is a difference
as well. But to get back on topic - what's the difference between the Liberty
Dollar and the Disney Dollar which indeed is an accepted currency in Disney
resorts... ?

[ChristineR]

If you leave Disney world and you have extra Disney Dollars, what do you get back?

Is the Disney dollar designed to look like US Currency, or does it have Mickey Mouse's face on it?

[brodski]

No, the Forum didn't know who he is prior to the thread. There is a difference
as well. But to get back on topic - what's the difference between the Liberty
Dollar and the Disney Dollar which indeed is an accepted currency in Disney
resorts... ?

The Disney dolors are not at attempt a counterfeiting and fraud. Using $15 of silver in order to produce a "coin" claimed to be worth $20 in order to rip off business owners, and then offering to buy it back at $15 is out and out fraud.

[brodski]

Is the Disney dollar designed to look like US Currency, or does it have Mickey Mouse's face on it?

To be fair, the Liberty Dolor had a Micky Mouse candidate on it ;)

[ChristineR]

To be fair, the Liberty Dolor had a Micky Mouse candidate on it ;)

I'm laughing so hard that I hate to contradict you. The Ron Paul money was a novelty and a publicity gimmick, but most of the coins had a picture of a woman wearing a crown, similar to the Statue of Liberty, and very much like the old silver dollar coins and the U.S. Mint collectibles.

You can see it here (http://web.archive.org/web/20070113180144/http://www.libertydollar.org/catalog/)--you can run, but you can't hide from the Wayback Machine!

http://web.archive.org/web/20070113180144/http://www.libertydollar.org/catalog/

[Oliver]

The Disney dolors are not at attempt a counterfeiting and fraud. Using $15 of silver in order to produce a "coin" claimed to be worth $20 in order to rip off business owners, and then offering to buy it back at $15 is out and out fraud.


It is no fraud. You can get the Ron Paul Dollars for
lousy $1,175.00 a piece:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ron-Paul-Dollar-Gold-Liberty-Services-NORFED-1-oz-RARE_W0QQitemZ110194674230QQihZ001QQcategoryZ3360Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I really should sell my RP-Dollars as well - seems to be
a good time to do so...

[brodski]

It is no fraud.

I think we'll let the courts decide that one.

[ChristineR]

It is no fraud. You can get the Ron Paul Dollars for
lousy $1,175.00 a piece:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Ron-Paul-Dollar-Gold-Liberty-Services-NORFED-1-oz-RARE_W0QQitemZ110194674230QQihZ001QQcategoryZ3360Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I really should sell my RP-Dollars as well - seems to be
a good time to do so...

You should sell them. The inherent value is about $785; the rest is numismatic and collector's value. That's not likely to ever be higher. Note the the face value of this coin is $1000, more than it's inherent value.

After the election is over and all this is a footnote the numismatic and collector's value will drop precipitously so your Ron Paul dollars will be worth less than their face value. I don't know if you were one of those lucky enough to get the coins for less than their face value, but I urge you not to try and spend them as tender.

[OneShotKi11]

Wow I want some RP dollars then!!!!

[KoihimeNakamura]

Oliver, I know we have said, ad infinitum, that he appeared (maybe still does, i'm unsure) on Alex Jones's radio show. That is not distancing yourself.

[Oliver]

Oliver, I know we have said, ad infinitum, that he appeared (maybe still does, i'm unsure) on Alex Jones's radio show. That is not distancing yourself.


So what? The BBC-"9/11 ConspiracyFiles" - producer was on AJ's show
as well. Does this make him a Conspiracy Nut,too? You're talking BS.
Paul isn't agreeing with AJ's "Yo, Gubmint did WTC7&9/11". In no way.

What's so hard to stick to the facts??? :confused:

[KoihimeNakamura]

Er. One of them is a news producer and not running for office. One is. What's the difference, Oliver?

[Oliver]

Er. One of them is a news producer and not running for office. One is. What's the difference, Oliver?


The difference is that Paul can speak on Iran's national TV as
long he doesn't agree with Iran. Just appearing on Iran's national
TV doesn't!!!! mean "Agreeing with Iran's national TV". :boggled:

Guess what. Serious Democrats and Republicans are appearing
on FAUX-News channel debates!!!111!!1OMG1!!. How reputable is that? :rolleyes:

Same thing.

[KoihimeNakamura]

No, it's not, and I'll spell it out for you

When a politican speaks on a press show, they are gathering support, whether for them, or their positions. (or, resigning, which is an interesting variant on gathering support.. by discharging it.)

[JEROME DA GNOME]

No, it's not, and I'll spell it out for you

When a politican speaks on a press show, they are gathering support, whether for them, or their positions. (or, resigning, which is an interesting variant on gathering support.. by discharging it.)

You seem to be pretending that questions such as: "When did you stop beating your wife?", do not exist.

[KoihimeNakamura]

I am not, but most politicans are aware of what show has what demographic.

[Checkmite]

It is no fraud. You can get the Ron Paul Dollars for
lousy $1,175.00 a piece:

Careful: that's $1,175 in evil Federal Reserve Notes.

[CyberCecil]

No, the Forum didn't know who he is prior to the thread. There is a difference
as well. But to get back on topic - what's the difference between the Liberty
Dollar and the Disney Dollar which indeed is an accepted currency in Disney
resorts... ?

So, then would you demand that your local gas station or restaurant accept the Disney Dollars as legal currency? After all, Disney accepts them and one Disney Dollar is bought for one US dollar. Never mind that you cannot deposit them into your bank and that they have value only for those who decide they do, namely Disney.

Why should anyone take a Liberty Dollar just because you say they are worth $20.00? It does not matter what they are made from, they are only worth the metal value regardless of what anyone says. Just try to buy groceries for a pinch of gold dust and see what happens.

If you or others want to accept these coins for trade that is your right, but do not try and claim that it is the same as legal US tender.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

So, then would you demand that your local gas station or restaurant accept the Disney Dollars as legal currency?

It is not a demand.

It would be a free transaction between two people.

Can you trade a baseball card with your friend for a bicycle tire tube?

[UnrepentantSinner]

How is the currency Fake?

I know this is from the OP, but just to emphasize the point - it's not currency, therefore if people are trying to use it as such, it would be fake.

It is not a demand.

It would be a free transaction between two people.

Interesting because from the "how to use" quotes ZenFountain posted it looks more like an attempt to scam people out of $5.

5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait.

[Kerberos]

It is not a demand.

It would be a free transaction between two people.

Can you trade a baseball card with your friend for a bicycle tire tube?

No it's fraud. Trying to pass of 15 dollars worth of silver ias 20 dollars worth of silver is a crime.

[ZenFountain]

Mr. von NotHaus was interviewed by The New York Sun via telephone on Saturday following disclosures that the Liberty Dollar, a gold- and silver-based currency marketed by anti-government activists as an alternative to the greenback, drew the federal government's scrutiny because the coins resembled official currency produced by the U.S. Mint.

Full Article (http://www.ct.gov/dob/cwp/view.asp?a=2235&q=297928)

Gee, how could they ever accuse Mr. von NotHaus of that?

http://i6.tinypic.com/6lc4flz.gif

$1 USD coin.

http://i13.tinypic.com/6jogbi0.png

Gold liberty dollar.

Liberty Services was apparently warned multiple times by the US Mint prior to the raid to change their coin design because of concerns it could be confused with official US tender, but it's obvious now the goal was to stir up controversy and draw in the feds. Add to that the fraud that was afoot with the exchange rates and you have nothing more than an anti-government gadfly who has potentially robbed customers of $20 million. What caught my eye immediately from the wiki entry for Liberty Dollars:

Liberty Dollars are currently sold or exchanged for about US$7 over the spot price of silver (as of July 15, 2007).

Frad? No way! Phoenix silver coins are sold for a mere $0.50-$0.75 (depending on quantity) over the spot price of silver per ounce to cover minting and distribution cost. Please explain how Liberty Services was not running some kind of racket.

There are plenty of other examples of alternative currencies that the federal government has no problem with:

Phoenix Dollars (http://www.phoenixdollar.com/p_dollars)

http://i5.tinypic.com/8e09n43.gif

Ithaca Hours (http://www.ithacahours.org/)

http://i14.tinypic.com/6wpya2r.jpg

Digital Gold Currencies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_gold_currency)

What's this you say?

US Mint Gold Buffalo (http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/buffalo24k/)

http://i7.tinypic.com/7272ut4.jpg

What a shocker this whole case is...:boggled:

[UnrepentantSinner]

I haven't purchased one in years, but I have a number of 1 oz. silver Eagles I got from legitimate dealers. I think the premium was a buck or two and the face value is $1.

[snagswolf]

:D Exactly! And we passed the "ridicule you" stage as well...
Ron Paul for president 2008!
No, I'd say the 'ridicule you' stage is still going on.

And will continue to go on long after Ron Paul gets thrashed in the primaries.

[snagswolf]

The difference is that Paul can speak on Iran's national TV as
long he doesn't agree with Iran. Just appearing on Iran's national
TV doesn't!!!! mean "Agreeing with Iran's national TV". :boggled:
Ron Paul is a U.S. Congressman and a candidate for President. The problem with him appearing on Alex Jones is that by doing so he adds legitimacy to that group. Jones and his minions are using the fact that a U.S. Congressman and presidential candidate is spending time on their show, to attempt to make their claims more believable.

And the fact that Ron Paul can't understand that makes me question his decision making skills, and leads me to conclude I don't want him anywhere near the power of the Presidency.

Guess what. Serious Democrats and Republicans are appearing
on FAUX-News channel debates!!!111!!1OMG1!!. How reputable is that? :rolleyes:

Same thing.
The fact that you can't tell the difference between FOX News and a group that is claiming (without proof) that the government murdered 3000 of its own citizens, says more about you than it does about FOX News.

[Kerberos]

Gee, how could they ever accuse Mr. von NotHaus of that?


You've misspelled "nuthouse".

[Solus]

I wonder what a ron paul dollar or coin would be worth on ebay? And where are the pictures?

[OneShotKi11]

Ron Paul is a U.S. Congressman and a candidate for President. The problem with him appearing on Alex Jones is that by doing so he adds legitimacy to that group. Jones and his minions are using the fact that a U.S. Congressman and presidential candidate is spending time on their show, to attempt to make their claims more believable.

And the fact that Ron Paul can't understand that makes me question his decision making skills, and leads me to conclude I don't want him anywhere near the power of the Presidency.

In no way does he add legitimacy to that group so just get that idea out of your head!

Do you think Alex jones/Twoofers are more legitimate now that Ron Paul was on The Alex Jones show?

Do you think anyone who believed 9/11 wasnt an inside job now believes it is because Ron Paul was on The Alex Jones show?

All candidates should be bashed for appearing on the fox news network going by that logic! Everyone knows what they do and how terrible of a company they are. yet you arent bashing them for appearing on this monster of a network!

He went on the show of a supporter nothing more nothing less! He constantly states that he does not believe in those silly conspiracy theories, and most are just mad that twoofers are twisting Ron Pauls internet popularity into there favor because he did appear on the show.

Are you not use to twoofers twisting anything they can to make them look legitimate?

[snagswolf]

In no way does he add legitimacy to that group so just get that idea out of your head!
Sure he does. It's very clear he does by the way they talk about him on their website.

Do you think Alex jones/Twoofers are more legitimate now that Ron Paul was on The Alex Jones show?

Do you think anyone who believed 9/11 wasnt an inside job now believes it is because Ron Paul was on The Alex Jones show?
I think that anyone who's not familiar with the 9/11 conspiracies, and comes upon that website and sees that U.S. Congressman and presidential candidate Ron Paul is a frequent guest to the program, will certainly give more credence to what is claimed there.

All candidates should be bashed for appearing on the fox news network going by that logic! Everyone knows what they do and how terrible of a company they are. yet you arent bashing them for appearing on this monster of a network!
I know that in your little fantasy world, FOX News is equal to Alex Jones. But they're not. They're a legitimate news organization who happens to present the news from a conservative viewpoint.

I understand that your liberal viewpoint and limited scope forces you to put anything you disagree with in the same group, but that's not reality.

He went on the show of a supporter nothing more nothing less! He constantly states that he does not believe in those silly conspiracy theories, and most are just mad that twoofers are twisting Ron Pauls internet popularity into there favor because he did appear on the show.
I've seen video of Paul standing in front of a truther crowd, and when asked about 9/11, agreeing with them that there should be another 9/11 investigation.

He's pandering.

Are you not use to twoofers twisting anything they can to make them look legitimate?
Sure. But it is Ron Paul who is giving them the opportunity to use him to make them look legitimate.

If you and I can understand what the truthers do, why can't Ron Paul?

[corplinx]

In Ron Paul's america, currency will be left up to the states to decide along with abortion, voting rights, and crystal meth.

[OneShotKi11]

I understand that your liberal viewpoint and limited scope forces you to put anything you disagree with in the same group, but that's not reality.

I must say you are stupid based on that quote. YOu have no idea why i support Ron Paul nor do you know many of my views or political outlook!

As for needing a new 9/11 investigation i believe we do need one for the same reasons Ron Paul does. Not because of what the twoofers say happened that day or any conspiracy theory, but because of the many failures in our national security!
YOu see him (Ron Paul) say we need a new investigation and assume its for the same reasons twoofers call for one, but that is evidence of your own limited scope and inability to be truely critical.
While on the other hand i heard ROn Paul say we needed a new investigation and then researched his reasons why only to find out low and behold i agree with him.
Dont assume so much and one day you might be able to be as close minded as you claim my ideals are!

People like you only see whats in red and then pass judgment.

Ron Paul, Twoofers, Ron Paul, Twoofer, 9/11 Invesigation, Twoofer, Conspiracy theory....OMG Ron Paul is a nut run!!!!!:boxedin:

[Donal]

Isn't the federal government's power to print currency in the Constitution?

So, what are the Freepers whining about?

[snagswolf]

I must say you are stupid based on that quote. YOu have no idea why i support Ron Paul nor do you know many of my views or political outlook!

As for needing a new 9/11 investigation i believe we do need one for the same reasons Ron Paul does. Not because of what the twoofers say happened that day or any conspiracy theory, but because of the many failures in our national security!
YOu see him (Ron Paul) say we need a new investigation and assume its for the same reasons twoofers call for one, but that is evidence of your own limited scope and inability to be truely critical.
While on the other hand i heard ROn Paul say we needed a new investigation and then researched his reasons why only to find out low and behold i agree with him.
Dont assume so much and one day you might be able to be as close minded as you claim my ideals are!

People like you only see whats in red and then pass judgment.

Ron Paul, Twoofers, Ron Paul, Twoofer, 9/11 Invesigation, Twoofer, Conspiracy theory....OMG Ron Paul is a nut run!!!!!:boxedin:
Well, anyone who considers FOX News to be comparable to Alex Jones, is a close-minded liberal.

If Ron Paul would have answered that question the way you claim he believes, there wouldn't be a problem. If he would tell those nuts that he thinks 9/11 should be investigated, but not for the nutty reason they do, then he would be being honest.

But he didn't. He decided to pander to them. And he goes on Jones' show, knowing full well what Jones preaches, and never calls Jones on his lunacy. Sure, when he's away from that audience he'll deny that he believes what they do. It's called hypocrisy and pandering to your audience.

And I made no claim as to why you supported Ron Paul.

[OneShotKi11]

Well, anyone who considers FOX News to be comparable to Alex Jones, is a close-minded liberal.

If Ron Paul would have answered that question the way you claim he believes, there wouldn't be a problem. If he would tell those nuts that he thinks 9/11 should be investigated, but not for the nutty reason they do, then he would be being honest.

But he didn't. He decided to pander to them. And he goes on Jones' show, knowing full well what Jones preaches, and never calls Jones on his lunacy. Sure, when he's away from that audience he'll deny that he believes what they do. It's called hypocrisy and pandering to your audience.

And I made no claim as to why you supported Ron Paul.


Clearly your bias is acting up again!
For if im not mistaken you said that it would be ok for Ron Paul to say we need a new investigation ....
"If he would tell those nuts that he thinks 9/11 should be investigated, but not for the nutty reason they do, then he would be being honest."

YOu then state "but he didnt" without actually researching anything, again you just assumed.
I have seen ROn Paul multiply times tell them that he does not believe for the same reasons they do. Yet they continue to support him!!!

What people dont talk about is how many twoofers hate Ron Paul and talk about not voting for him because he doesnt believe 9/11 was an inside job. How come nobody talks about this??

YOu people just try and link him to as many negative things as possible, for what reasons i dont know. Lets talk about the hardcore twoofers who hate Ron Paul because he doesnt believe what they believe.

Has anyone actually seen who loosechange911.com advertises for as president? They actually have a banner for him up somewhere, but i can tell you this.....It isnt Ron Paul!

So please continue to state things without actually knowing the truth and then pretend them to be fact. Please continue to add 2+2 together and providing the answer as 4, yet still getting the answer marked wrong on the test because you didnt show how you came to that conclusion.

Please before you make your next post, think about what you are going to say and ask yourself....
DO i actually know if this is true?

Again please read around the red!!!!

[Cleon]

Well, anyone who considers FOX News to be comparable to Alex Jones, is a close-minded liberal.

You just accused a Ron Paul supporter of being a liberal. :boggled:

Try not to let your knee jerk so hard...You might throw something out.

[Donal]

When any candidate gets softball questions tossed at him on any channel or program, they get skewered here and most other political discussion groups.

However, when the debate is being moderated and broadcasted by, say FOX News, you really can't rail on any one candidate unless they are being treated better than the opponents.

What Ron Paul does is go in for those sweetheart lovefests on the Alex Jones Show. Listen to the broadcasts. And there is no way Paul doesn't know what Jones preaches and stands for.

While Paul doesn't regurgitate their crap, he certainly has no problem accepting their support and money.

[rikzilla]

Linky (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/16/illegal-ron-paul-currency-seized/):



I find it amusing that the Paul campaign seems to be attracting the real nutbars--the Twoofers, the neo-Nazis (Stormfront), now these bozos.

Look, Paul people, if you want people to accept Paul as a serious candidate--he's gotta distance himself from his base of supporters. 'Cause right now, his base of supporters make the Larouchites seem reasonable.

Damn Cleon!

I go away for a few months and I come back to find you have allowed the invasion of illegal Paulian aliens! OMG! Liberty Dollars!!!! I thought that particular form of idiocy was isolated to the Wyoming badlands of 1995. I never had an inkling Paul was so skilled that he could pull obscure and marginalized conspiracists out of an aparent time-warp. What's next? Will he announce David Koresh as his running mate?

I'm flabbergasted! But I'm also quite relieved! Oliver has become a Paulian! My powers of logical deduction have never before been quite so validated! I literally had that fine fellow pegged correctly long, long ago.

Oh look! Chris Hitchens is on CNN! His British monotone is unmistakeable.....geez...it looks as if Rick Sanchez will be forced to translate his mumblings!! I love that guy, his ability to annoy the religious by just being honest is...well...skeptic-gold!

-z

[ServiceSoon]

You just accused a Ron Paul supporter of being a liberal.
Duh, political positions are like a circle. When you get so far right you eventually get back on the grid as a left liberal.

In Ron Paul's america, currency will be left up to the states to decide along with abortion, voting rights, and crystal meth.Wrong. But nice try. Congress is granted the power by the constitution to...coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin... Source: Article I - Section 8 of da US Constitution.

[Cleon]

Duh, political positions are like a circle. When you get so far right you eventually get back on the grid as a left liberal.

Duh, if you categorize a Ron Paul type as a liberal, you just reinforce the fact that the only thing "liberal" means to you is "someone who disagrees with me."

Because that's the only way such a categorization makes the least bit of sense. And even then, it's not much sense.

[Cleon]

Damn Cleon!

I go away for a few months and I come back to find you have allowed the invasion of illegal Paulian aliens! OMG! Liberty Dollars!!!! I thought that particular form of idiocy was isolated to the Wyoming badlands of 1995. I never had an inkling Paul was so skilled that he could pull obscure and marginalized conspiracists out of an aparent time-warp. What's next? Will he announce David Koresh as his running mate?

I think, technically, you have to be alive to be a candidate, but I could be wrong. My knowledge of the Constitution is not as strong as it used to be. Perhaps Mr. Badnarik can help me out...

Welcome back, rik. :D

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Isn't the federal government's power to print currency in the Constitution?

Yes, but the right to cede that right to a private bank is not.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Will he announce David Koresh as his running mate?


Who do you support?

[UnrepentantSinner]

Yes, but the right to cede that right to a private bank is not.

The last time I checked the U.S. Mint and the BEP are both still governmental bodies. The fed might issue money, but the government prints it, which is what Donal said.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

The last time I checked the U.S. Mint and the BEP are both still governmental bodies. The fed might issue money, but the government prints it, which is what Donal said.

Semantics

[UnrepentantSinner]

Semantics

Right. Except the Fed is not printing or coining currency, the government is. That is within the Constitution.

[Donal]

Semantics

Of course it is semantics. We are talking about the wording of the most important legal document in the country. Exact wording plays a huge role in its interpretation and application.

Have you ever actually met a lawyer?

[stanleywinthrop]

Yes, but the right to cede that right to a private bank is not.

Tell me what does the phrase "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof." Mean to you?

[grunion]

All this evokes a childhood memory of the Dick Gregory For President Dollar Bill (http://www.ep.tc/dickgregory/)"scandal" in 1968.

I would suggest Paul's defense to be similar to Gregory's, who reportedly said something like "nobody with any sense would ever think that a black man could ever be on US Currency." I would place Paul's hopes for the presidency around where Gregory's were at the time.

[rikzilla]

Welcome back, rik. :D

Thanks man...if there's any water in Lake Hartwell in May you wanna come out and see us again?

Hope so!
-z

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Of course it is semantics. We are talking about the wording of the most important legal document in the country. Exact wording plays a huge role in its interpretation and application.

Agreed.


"To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures"

"To borrow Money on the credit of the United States"

I believe these are the relevant texts.

Does this text give the power to government to borrow money from a private bank which makes a ledger note of the loan thus giving the treasury the ability to print dollars?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Tell me what does the phrase "To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof." Mean to you?

It means that the governmnet can make any laws which carry out the powers which the constitution has enumerated.

[rikzilla]

Who do you support?

Not sure yet, but if you're neither a Clinton nor a Bush...have no support from twoofers or other assorted nasty cranks...and are NOT in favor of handing AQ for free the victory that they have lost on the battlefields of Iraq then you have a shot with me.

Damn, I'd better strike my insistence on no-Clinton otherwise my last sentence would disqualify every Democratic candidate! So, the lady Senator from NY by-way-of-DC-and-AR is back in!

Don't get me wrong...I like Obama as a person, but can't help but think of him as Carter-esque. Steady and truthful,...but pure crap as POTUS material.

As ever...just MHO,

-z

[IchabodPlain]

Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME View Post
How is the currency Fake?


Article 1 of the Constitution states Ron Paul coins are FAKE.

As Cnn reported, not only did people mint the "currency", they circulated it, which is a criminal offense.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Article 1 of the Constitution states Ron Paul coins are FAKE.

As Cnn reported, not only did people mint the "currency", they circulated it, which is a criminal offense.

Presenting a Looney in Michigan denotes a criminal offense by the presenter and the Canadian government?

Is this group committing a criminal offense?
http://americanbartercompany.com/

Do you have any idea how long the Liberty Dollar has been circulating?

[Donal]

They aren't trying to circulate their own currency and they aren't claiming their $15 worth of silver is actually $20 worth of silver. That whole fraud issue, you know.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

They aren't trying to circulate their own currency and they aren't claiming their $15 worth of silver is actually $20 worth of silver. That whole fraud issue, you know.

It is not possible to purchase $20 worth of silver for $20.

Unless you are claiming fraud on every commodity dealer in the country, this is also not fraud.

[Donal]

Those monkeys were claiming that their silver coins had a content of silver that equaled $20. The coins decidedly did not.

If you bought a Porche from me and I give you a Datsun, wouldn't you call that fraud?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Those monkeys were claiming that their silver coins had a content of silver that equaled $20. The coins decidedly did not.

Evidence.

Do you think it is free to have coins minted?

[Donal]

Have you been reading the thread?

[Checkmite]

Do you think it is free to have coins minted?

Doesn't seem to matter to the scammers who then offer to buy the coins back for $15?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Have you been reading the thread?

Yes

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Doesn't seem to matter to the scammers who then offer to buy the coins back for $15?

Did they?

Good business people in my estimation if this is so.

Have you ever run a business?

[Checkmite]

Good business people in my estimation...


Of course; that figures.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Of course; that figures.

:)

[Schneibster]

Duh, political positions are like a circle. I think they're more like a cluster.

[Father Dagon]

First they ignore you...But that doesn't mean that every ignored person or organization ended up victorious.

[IchabodPlain]

Presenting a Looney in Michigan denotes a criminal offense by the presenter and the Canadian government?

It is a criminal offense to present and circulate illegitimate currency when paying for goods. This is not a difficult issue. As stated in the Constitution, only the Congress has the power to coin money and regulate the value there of. Strange how RP-ites take such a vigilante attitude towards the constitution.

Is this group committing a criminal offense?
No, that is voluntary barter.

Do you have any idea how long the Liberty Dollar has been circulating?

1998. Do you know how long it has been illegal to circulate these coins as legal tender? Answer - 1998.
USC title 18 Section 486: "Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined not more than $3,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. June 25, 1948, c. 645, 62 Stat. 709."

[JEROME DA GNOME]

It is a criminal offense to present and circulate illegitimate currency when paying for goods. This is not a difficult issue. As stated in the Constitution, only the Congress has the power to coin money and regulate the value there of. Strange how RP-ites take such a vigilante attitude towards the constitution.

Gift certificates?

[Kerberos]

Yes

Not very carefully it appears.

"5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait. "

How is that not fraud?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Not very carefully it appears.

"5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait. "

How is that not fraud?


That sounds like they are presenting an opportunity for the vendor to examine the currency and decide if they choose to accept it.

Fraud would be to hide the coin with other coins to mask it.

[Kerberos]

That sounds like they are presenting an opportunity for the vendor to examine the currency and decide if they choose to accept it.

Fraud would be to hide the coin with other coins to mask it.

Or claiming that it's worth 20$ when in reality it's worth only 15$. You're conviniently ignoring that little fact.

Here, I looked up fraud for you: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. "

Or don't you think that claiming that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$ is deceit?

[IchabodPlain]

Gift certificates?

Seriously?

Have you read the fine print on a gift certificate? Not Legal Tender

Liberty Dollar? Not Legal Tender

A five dollar Mickie D's gift certificate can't be exchanged for five dollars of unleaded at the gas station.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Seriously?

Have you read the fine print on a gift certificate? Not Legal Tender

Liberty Dollar? Not Legal Tender

A five dollar Mickie D's gift certificate can't be exchanged for five dollars of unleaded at the gas station.

I issue gift certificates and they no not say "not legal tender"; am I in violation of the law?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Or claiming that it's worth 20$ when in reality it's worth only 15$. You're conviniently ignoring that little fact.

Here, I looked up fraud for you: "deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage. "

Or don't you think that claiming that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$ is deceit?

Again, can you buy $20 of silver for $20?

ETA: By your argument: All trades of currency are illegal because currency value changes.

[Kerberos]

Again, can you buy $20 of silver for $20?

ETA: By your argument: All trades of currency are illegal because currency value changes.

I find it difficult to believe that you're as obtuse as you're pretending to be, but nonetheles I will explain. You can sell 15$ of silver for 20$, 30$ or 200.000$ if you want. What you cannot do is claim, or suggest that others should claim, that your 15$ of silver is actually worth 20$. That is what they do, and that is fraud.

[IchabodPlain]

I issue gift certificates and they no not say "not legal tender"; am I in violation of the law?

What are you pining at?

Depends. For what exactly is the gift certificate redeemable? And who supposedly is expected to redeem it? You, for a back rub? A foot bath?

If the gift certificate is for anything redeemable *same as legal tender* anywhere at any business - then it is illegal. Fraud and counterfeit.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I issue gift certificates and they no not say "not legal tender"; am I in violation of the law?

What are you pining at?

Depends. For what exactly is the gift certificate redeemable? And who supposedly is expected to redeem it? You, for a back rub? A foot bath?

If the gift certificate is for anything redeemable *same as legal tender* anywhere at any business - then it is illegal. Fraud and counterfeit.

You do understand that "legal tender" denotes that the merchant must accept as payment.

Do you have a law which precludes me from trading my lawn mower for your baseball card?

[gtc]

Do you have a law which precludes me from trading my lawn mower for your baseball card?

Probably not.

There may be laws relating to dealing in second hand commodities (often for public health or safety reasons) and you may need to report the transaction for tax purposes.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Probably not.

There may be laws relating to dealing in second hand commodities (often for public health or safety reasons) and you may need to report the transaction for tax purposes.

I think you see the point.

Legal tender is that which one is obligated by law to accept as payment for a debt.

Any individual is free to trade what ever for what ever with another individual.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I find it difficult to believe that you're as obtuse as you're pretending to be, but nonetheles I will explain. You can sell 15$ of silver for 20$, 30$ or 200.000$ if you want. What you cannot do is claim, or suggest that others should claim, that your 15$ of silver is actually worth 20$. That is what they do, and that is fraud.

Do you understand what a dollar is?

Your arguments present that you do not.

ETA: Is the $ symbol on the coins in question? If not, why are you using that symbol in your arguments?

[IchabodPlain]

Do you have a law which precludes me from trading my lawn mower for your baseball card?

There may be laws relating to dealing in second hand commodities (often for public health or safety reasons) and you may need to report the transaction for tax purposes.

I see. My interpretation was that these coins were being used in place of money as an alternative unit of exchange, and introduced into public circulation. Not that they were being traded as second hand commodities.

[shadron]

Clearing up some questions and comments that need some explanation (Economics 240 or thereabouts):

BTW, which of those seized metals "are inflation free and can restore stability to financial markets by allowing commerce based on a currency that does not fluctuate in value"?

Last I checked, value of gold, silver, and copper have been pretty volatile.

The idea in a standard is an attempt to peg the value of your money to some average cost of living (combined cost of goods a services to an everage person) in such a way that the value of the money can buy the same goods and services that it did in the past, and can be relied upon to do in the future.

So when asking Wildcat's question, you need to assume a standard. He or she is assuming the dollar is standard and measuring the cost of metal. It is just as correct (or incorrect) to assume the metal is constant and the money value is fluctuating. Einstein was right about relativity, you know. The real standard you seek is the mythical "average cost of goods and services". Unfortunately, that is not really easy to determine.

A real honest money system will attempt to make the currency buy the same thing at the same price through time. It is also deemed proper to add a markup as a difference in buying and selling price to make up for the costs of coinage and printing, but no profit (one reason the gov does the work). Any other messing is just fraud to one group of people or another.

Gold and silver is useful as a basis for a monetary system because:
- it is durable, doesn't rot or dissolve in many solutes readily, weighs essentially the same at all points in time, can be split into smaller parts or combined into larger ones easily, accurately and traceably (thanks, Archimedes).
- it is relatively rare, so that a small physical amount represents a goodly amount of goods/services.
- it is not so rare as to have to be traded by microscope.
- it's rarity remains relatively constant through time (a toughy). This can be done most readily by outlawing trade in that commodity, and stating a standard such as "one ounce of gold is worth $32.00". This is where we were when silver certificates were what we called dollars, in the middle of the 20th century. You can back this up, if your gutsy, by actually using an ounce of gold to make a $32 (plus small markup) piece, and use it publicly. The US was once gutsy in this way, but for various reasons (mainly having to do with international trade, where the US standard doesn't reach) has abandoned it, which is theoretically what upsets these people and Jerome.

The gold standard is essentially a bet that the price of a chunk of gold reflects the average cost of goods and services through time. Likewise the silver standard. Unfortunately, that makes your currency volatile due to efforts to "curb the market" in the commodity, like the Hunt brothers tried to do about twenty years ago.

The fed took the US off the gold and silver standards to stop the endemic monetary panics in the 19th century as speculators caused the metals to bob up and down.

I believe that the LD passing rules 5 and 6 in this thread constitute a borderline case of fraud, because if the receiver doesn't take the time to argue about the use of non-tender coinage he's suffered a loss which makes trust in real coinage decline. Truly, the receiver can decline the coin because it is not legal tender, but that assumes he's knowledgeable about what he's doing, something that another thread in this forum finds very iffy. The proof in the pudding is whether the transaction is symmetric; would the LD owner allow the LD to flow the other way just as readily as he tries to pass it? The answer is no, and that makes the transaction suspect. That, I think, is what an honest fed should be looking to curb.

[gtc]

I see. My interpretation was that these coins were being used in place of money as an alternative unit of exchange, and introduced into public circulation. Not that they were being traded as second hand commodities.

Sorry to confuse you. I was talking only about swapping second hand goods (like lawn mowers). I don't know if these coins would be considered second hand goods or not.

[SteveGrenard]

Apparently there is "fake" or illegal paper money involved. Also found a picture of a coin with Ron Paul's head on it. The Liberty paper certificates say Negotiable and are marfked $XX Silver Certificate.

[ZenFountain]

Any individual is free to trade what ever for what ever with another individual.

And fraud involving currency will be investigated by the Secret Service.

As shadron went into great detail explaining (as you never do), there were more pluses than negatives taking the dollar off gold convertibility. And I as tried to point out, there are plenty of easy ways to invest in precious metals and even use gold backed currencies for trade that are not riddled with fraud. Although, not surprisingly a few of the DGCs have had their services abused by criminals and money launderers.

[UnrepentantSinner]

That sounds like they are presenting an opportunity for the vendor to examine the currency and decide if they choose to accept it.

Fraud would be to hide the coin with other coins to mask it.

No, fraud is using BS language to convince someone that $15 worth of silver is worth $20 then only offering $15 to by it back if challenged as to the "worth" of the "currency". The language in the FAQ basically exposes Liberty dollars as the fraud they are.

When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars."

You're being obtuse as Kerberos noted and it didn't work for the perps who were trying to work the Liberty dollar scam nor will it work here.

[Kerberos]

Do you understand what a dollar is?

Your arguments present that you do not.

ETA: Is the $ symbol on the coins in question? If not, why are you using that symbol in your arguments?

Yes I know what a dollar is and I'm using $ because it's the accepted shorthand for dollar. Now are you going to adress the point ot not? How is it not fraud to claim that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$?

[Mister Agenda]

How much does it cost to mint a Liberty Dollar? I assume it is relatively cheap, but the cost does have to be accounted for.

Only being willing to redeem them for $15.00 seems to make the case for the Feds.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

No, fraud is using BS language to convince someone that $15 worth of silver is worth $20 then only offering $15 to by it back if challenged as to the "worth" of the "currency". The language in the FAQ basically exposes Liberty dollars as the fraud they are.

You are thinking that dollars equate to Federal Reserve notes.

The Federal reserve note is not the standard by which one should measure.

One should measure value by the purchasing power of the currency.

By your argument, the Fed is committing fraud when they issue more Fed currency into the market at a rate less than the increase of good and services because that devalues the Fed dollars pre-influx of new Fed currency.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

How much does it cost to mint a Liberty Dollar? I assume it is relatively cheap, but the cost does have to be accounted for.

Only being willing to redeem them for $15.00 seems to make the case for the Feds.

Value is determined by the choice of two free individuals in their exchange.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Yes I know what a dollar is and I'm using $ because it's the accepted shorthand for dollar. Now are you going to adress the point ot not? How is it not fraud to claim that 15$ worth of silver is worth 20$?

Because the silver currently being worth in exchange today for 15 Federal Reserve notes has little to do with the exchange value between two free people.

[Mister Agenda]

Value is determined by the choice of two free individuals in their exchange.

Maybe if 'the drop' mentioned it's only $15 of silver it would be the choice of two free individuals in their exchange if the 'dropper' wanted $20 for it, but absent that information, it's fraud, since the 'dropper' says the coin is 'valued' at $20, implying the coin is valued by some standard other than that's just what the 'dropper' wants to get for it.

[gtc]

The truthers at 911 oz (http://www.911oz.com/forum/public/viewtopic.php?t=1150) are tying this into the Amero conspiracy. Apparently both are the work of the evil NWO.

Unfortunately, they can't work out why there are 13 stars on the Liberty dollar.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Unfortunately, they can't work out why there are 13 stars on the Liberty dollar.

Really?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Maybe if 'the drop' mentioned it's only $15 of silver it would be the choice of two free individuals in their exchange if the 'dropper' wanted $20 for it, but absent that information, it's fraud, since the 'dropper' says the coin is 'valued' at $20, implying the coin is valued by some standard other than that's just what the 'dropper' wants to get for it.

Free exchange is not tied to the Federal Reserve note.

Do you think that a value on a trade of a Euro for a Yen is restricted by the value of the Federal Reserve note?

People trade currency all the time based on many factors including that they think the currency they are trading for will be able to exchange for more goods tomorrow.

Remember the true value of a currency is the amount of goods it can purchase.

When you see the word dollar or the symbol $, this does not only denote Federal Reserve note.

[Kerberos]

Free exchange is not tied to the Federal Reserve note.

Do you think that a value on a trade of a Euro for a Yen is restricted by the value of the Federal Reserve note?

People trade currency all the time based on many factors including that they think the currency they are trading for will be able to exchange for more goods tomorrow.

Remember the true value of a currency is the amount of goods it can purchase.

When you see the word dollar or the symbol $, this does not only denote Federal Reserve note.

Yes it does, at least in this context and of cause it would be fraud if I handed over Euros in a shop claiming each was worth 2 dollars.

[UnrepentantSinner]

You are thinking that dollars equate to Federal Reserve notes.

The Federal reserve note is not the standard by which one should measure.

One should measure value by the purchasing power of the currency.

By your argument, the Fed is committing fraud when they issue more Fed currency into the market at a rate less than the increase of good and services because that devalues the Fed dollars pre-influx of new Fed currency.

Try telling your grocer, gas station owner or telephone compay that you will pay them $15 for $20 worth of good or services and see how far this argument gets you.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Yes it does, at least in this context and of cause it would be fraud if I handed over Euros in a shop claiming each was worth 2 dollars.

It would not be fraud if you handed over 2 loonies and claimed it was worth 2 dollars.

Now, claiming it is worth 2 Federal Reserve notes would be fraud.

[Kerberos]

It would not be fraud if you handed over 2 loonies and claimed it was worth 2 dollars.

Now, claiming it is worth 2 Federal Reserve notes would be fraud.

Where on Earth have you gotten the hair-brained notion that US dollars are somehow different from federal reserve notes?

I suggest you put your ideas on fraud into action and see how the court reacts.

[dudalb]

Jerome reminds me of that a main reason I am not a Libertarian is there tendacy to go off into La La Land frequently.

[UnrepentantSinner]

It would not be fraud if you handed over 2 loonies and claimed it was worth 2 dollars.

Now, claiming it is worth 2 Federal Reserve notes would be fraud.

Claiming two Canadian dollars are worth two U.S. dollars would be fraud - and pretty silly given current exchange rates. Claiming two U.S. dollars are worth two U.S. dollars is simply stating reality.

This, however, clearly is an attempt to defruad people:

Not very carefully it appears.

"5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait. "

How is that not fraud?

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Where on Earth have you gotten the hair-brained notion that US dollars are somehow different from federal reserve notes?

I suggest you put your ideas on fraud into action and see how the court reacts.

I did not notice that the coins or paper was printed with "US Dollar" on them.

A Federal Reserve note is a specific currency.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Jerome reminds me of that a main reason I am not a Libertarian is there tendacy to go off into La La Land frequently.

Dudald reminds me of the main reason I do not allow myself to disengage my thinking ability.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

This, however, clearly is an attempt to defruad people:

This is presenting the currency for examination and allowing the vendor to choose if they will accept as payment.

[UnrepentantSinner]

This is presenting the currency for examination and allowing the vendor to choose if they will accept as payment.

And then lying to them in order to get them to accept $15 worth of silver as being worth $20.
When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars."

[JEROME DA GNOME]

And then lying to them in order to get them to accept $15 worth of silver as being worth $20.

Uggh, dollars does not denote Federal reserve currency!

[UnrepentantSinner]

Uggh, dollars does not denote Federal reserve currency!

Which excuses the fraud they are perpetrating how?

And every note I've seen says dollar right on the front.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:United_States_one_dollar_bill%2C_obverse.jpg

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Which excuses the fraud they are perpetrating how?

Not fraud.

Unless you are also accusing the Canadians of printing fraudulent dollars as well.

[INRM]

I'm wondering if a lot of this stuff is character assasination... I mean Bush trashed McCain before the 2000 election, and Kerry was trashed by "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" in 2004...

INRM

[JEROME DA GNOME]

I'm wondering if a lot of this stuff is character assasination... I mean Bush trashed McCain before the 2000 election, and Kerry was trashed by "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" in 2004...

INRM

Of course not.

It was just coincidence that this company was raided by the Federal government and had all their property confiscated just when the Ron Paul coins were delivered despite this company having been in business for a decade.

Fortuitous timing.

[Kerberos]

I did not notice that the coins or paper was printed with "US Dollar" on them.

A Federal Reserve note is a specific currency.

Someone said somethign earlier in this thread which was very relevant to this discussion, I'll see if I can find it. Ahh, here it is:

Semantics

When two Americans in the US talk about "dollars" that means US dollars unless otherwise stated (the same principle applies in most of the rest of the world too). To claim otherwise are flagrantly dishonest. If you believe otherwise I suggest you try the following experiment

a) Agree to pay someone a certain amount of "dollars" for a good or service.

b) Pay them with another form of "dollars" that is worth less that the US dollar.

c) Tell the judge that it was never explicitly stated that you were talking about US dollars.

d) Enjoy you vacation at tax payer expense.

I also note that while you refuse to accept that dollars clearly is meant to be understood as US dollars you are in fact willing to accept implicitly that US stands for United States (of America). But if we accept your position than why not make University of Sussex dollars, or UberSoft dollars, which would of cause conveniently be abbreviated US dollars and equally conveniently be valued less than actual US dollars. Clearly it wouldn't be fraud to give values in "US" dollars, right? I mean it's hardly my fault that people stupidly assume that US means the United States, and hence believe that something is worth more than it actually is.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

Kerberos, your argument boils down to the fact that these coins use the term US dollar and as such this is fraud because Americans expect US dollar to mean Federal Reserve note.

Is this a correct interpretation?

[WildCat]

Kerberos, your argument boils down to the fact that these coins use the term US dollar and as such this is fraud because Americans expect US dollar to mean Federal Reserve note.

Is this a correct interpretation?
No, a dollar is a dollar. A Federal Reserve Note is the same dollar that a Silver Certificate (got one in change a few years ago) is that a Susan B. Anthony is that a Sacajawea is that a Presidential is that 4 quarters are that 100 pennys are that 10 dimes are and that that 20 nickels are.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

No, a dollar is a dollar. A Federal Reserve Note is the same dollar that a Silver Certificate (got one in change a few years ago) is that a Susan B. Anthony is that a Sacajawea is that a Presidential is that 4 quarters are that 100 pennys are that 10 dimes are and that that 20 nickels are.

So, a looney is a dollar equal to the denominations you describe above?

Of course not; thus your attempt at an answer fails.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I also note that while you refuse to accept that dollars clearly is meant to be understood as US dollars you are in fact willing to accept implicitly that US stands for United States (of America). But if we accept your position than why not make University of Sussex dollars, or UberSoft dollars, which would of cause conveniently be abbreviated US dollars and equally conveniently be valued less than actual US dollars. Clearly it wouldn't be fraud to give values in "US" dollars, right? I mean it's hardly my fault that people stupidly assume that US means the United States, and hence believe that something is worth more than it actually is.

I hereby aver that US (UnrepentantSinner) dollars are equal to U.S. dollars... but since I use U.S. dollars as US dollars, they're the same thing anyway.

So, a looney is a dollar equal to the denominations you describe above?

Of course not; thus your attempt at an answer fails.

My irony meter explodeth. Do you understand that comparing a Looney with a U.S. dollar is fallacious equivocation. You're no longer talking abou the same thing while everything in WildCat's list does mean the same thing.

[Kerberos]

Kerberos, your argument boils down to the fact that these coins use the term US dollar and as such this is fraud because Americans expect US dollar to mean Federal Reserve note.

Is this a correct interpretation?

No it is not and you attempt to twist my post is painfully transparent. My argument boils down to the fact that the coins and even more importantly the guide to using them uses the term dollar and that the term "dollar" in the context given will be understood, and is meant to be understood as American dollars - not Canadian, Australian, "liberty" or for that matter Disney dollars, but US dollars. That is fraud.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

My irony meter explodeth. Do you understand that comparing a Looney with a U.S. dollar is fallacious equivocation. You're no longer talking abou the same thing while everything in WildCat's list does mean the same thing.

As is comparing the Liberty dollar, which is the point. :D

[JEROME DA GNOME]

No it is not and you attempt to twist my post is painfully transparent. My argument boils down to the fact that the coins and even more importantly the guide to using them uses the term dollar and that the term "dollar" in the context given will be understood, and is meant to be understood as American dollars - not Canadian, Australian, "liberty" or for that matter Disney dollars, but US dollars. That is fraud.

If I were trying to twist your argument, I would not have asked if my interpretation of your words was correct.
:confused:

When the purveyors of the Liberty dollar overtly state that it is a private currency, how is this an attempt to fraudulently pass them off as federal reserve notes?

[Mister Agenda]

We're not saying they were trying to pass them as federal reserve notes. We're saying they were trying to pass them as being worth $20 in federal reserve notes when they aren't. Just for the record, I'm a Libertarian and I'm not buying the argument that claiming $15 in silver bullion is worth $20 is not deception, and therefore fraud. Tricky language doesn't get you off the hook. A reasonable person would understand that to be equivalent to $20 in USA legal tender. And while we're at it, it would be fraud for me to pay you in Canadian dollars if you reasonably expected to be paid in US dollars.

An honest exchange would have been something like : 'This is worth $15 just as silver bullion, but it's also private currency attractively minted. I'll let you have it for $20.'

[UnrepentantSinner]

As is comparing the Liberty dollar, which is the point. :D

Ummm. No.

Telling someone who asks, "is this real" that "that's a real Candadian dollar which currently is worth a little more than a dollar U.S. based on exchange rates is miles and miles away from:

[quote]"5. "Do the Drop!" The best way to introduce the Liberty Dollar is to drop the Silver Liberty in someone's hand. Do not hand it to the cashier, Drop it! Hold a one-ounce Silver Liberty a couple inches above the outreached palm and drop it so it lands flat in the person's palm.

6. Now the hardest part - don't say anything! Just wait. Let the person marvel at its beauty, weight, and discover it says TWENTY DOLLARS. When asked "Is it real?" Answer: "Yes, one ounce of silver PRIVATE currency valued at 20 dollars." Do not rush. Just stand there and wait, patiently. No need to smile. Just wait. "

[Kerberos]

If I were trying to twist your argument, I would not have asked if my interpretation of your words was correct.
:confused:

When the purveyors of the Liberty dollar overtly state that it is a private currency, how is this an attempt to fraudulently pass them off as federal reserve notes?

I have already explaned this numorous times. So have several other posters. Most recently Mister Agenda and UnrepentantSinner. If you refuse to get it I dont see any benefit in repeating myself for the umpteenth time.