[Split]Fireproofing, Steel and NIST - split from: [Merged]LCFC Errors / Loose Chang

[BenBurch]

ASIDE; What the heck is all this clunkity-clunk stuff people keep saying like it was the tag line to a joke I'm not in on?

[BenBurch]

Also there is no evidence that the steel would weaken without fireproofing

Watch and weep, fool;

Drsgs6-3Qlg

[Tbone]

ASIDE; What the heck is all this clunkity-clunk stuff people keep saying like it was the tag line to a joke I'm not in on?

The woman from 9/11 Mysteries (Sophie something?) said, in a nutshell, that since a human cannot say "clunkity-clunk" 110 times in the length of time it took the towers to collapse, it must have been demolished.

[T.A.M.]

ASIDE; What the heck is all this clunkity-clunk stuff people keep saying like it was the tag line to a joke I'm not in on?

I believe the creator of the "9/11 Mysteries" truther video uses it to "prove" that the WTCs could not have come down the way NIST says...

"Try saying clunkity clunk 110 times in ten seconds" or something to this effect.

Sad really.

TAM:)

Edit: Doh!! Damn you Tbone, damn you to...

[Lennart Hyland]

Its still sad to see that you, Malmoe, have no idea what you are talking about. The last post from you contains text from a couple of other sites.

Can you pls make sure to post your sources and use the " " signs.

[BenBurch]

Like most "truthers" he/she also forgets that most of the space is just air. The towers were not a solid block.

Were you to scale the towers down to a model, you'd have to represent the floors as a membrane of some thin material between the inner and outer walls. We are supposed to believe the floors had all this strength and no, they were only about twice as strong as they had to be to do their day-to-day job.

[GregoryUrich]

Want to know why you are being accused of cherry-picking these quotes? Well, for starters:

First of all, these were not consecutive statements as you show, but taken from throughout the article with no indication of editing given. This article shows that most of the scrap was brought to Fresh Kills landfill which was under FBI control, that is what the 130,000 tons is referring to. They refer to an estimate of over a million tons total existed at ground zero that would need to be moved. The total amount of scrap stolen, according to this article, over 250 tons. Nowhere near 80%.

snip

The facts from official sources are as follows:

Martin Bellew, Director of the Bureau of Waste Disposal, New York Department of Sanitation states in an article on the AWPA website:
“200,000 tons of steel were recycled directly from Ground Zero to various
metal recyclers. The Fresh Kills Landfill received approximately 1.4 million
tons of WTC debris of which 200,000 tons of steel were recycled by a
recycling vendor (Hugo Neu Schnitzer).”

Phillips & Jordan, Inc. reported:
“The last debris was processed on July 26, 2002, day 321 of the project. At
the close of the Staten Island Landfill mission: 1,462,000 tons of debris had
been received and processed, 35,000 tons of steel had been removed
(165,000 tons were removed directly at Ground Zero).”

So there was a total of 400,000 tons of steel. Half was shipped to various recyclers directly from ground zero. I have seen no reports that this steel was ever inspected. 200,000 tons went to Fresh Kills. I have not seen any reports on how much was actually inspected by the FBI, FEMA and NIST.

[twinstead]

I have not seen any reports on how much was actually inspected by the FBI, FEMA and NIST.

Which is unusual, because normally they really should keep you informed about stuff like that.

Oh, and BTW--exactly what is this supposed to prove?

[GregoryUrich]

Which is unusual, because normally they really should keep you informed about stuff like that.

Oh, and BTW--exactly what is this supposed to prove?

I have seen, on a number of threads, people incorrectly stating that all of the steel was available for inspection at Fresh Kills and was in fact inspected. I just wanted to provide the official facts, which, are very clear about half the steel going directly to various recyclers and also seem to indicate that at least half the steel was not inspected. Any sources indicating how much steel was actually inspected would be greatly appreciated.

[Apollo20]

GregoryUrich:

Thanks for this interesting information.

However, the amounts of steel involved are not entirely clear. You say a total of 400,000 tons of steel was removed from GZ. But how much of that was WTC 1 & 2?

[GregoryUrich]

GregoryUrich:

Thanks for this interesting information.

However, the amounts of steel involved are not entirely clear. You say a total of 400,000 tons of steel was removed from GZ. But how much of that was WTC 1 & 2?

Hi Apollo,

Is that a rhetorical question? Around 200,000 according to NIST and other sources. Which steel went where is another question? Although I've read a number of articles regarding the steel, I haven't seen any clear description of which steel was received at Fresh Kills. It would make sense that it would be WTC 1 and 2. Then again, there is not very much about 9/11 that makes sense.

Edited to add:

As I started to look through the FEMA docs again, I found that FEMA says that scrap yards were already receiving steel at least as early as October 7 and the BPS team "visited" the scrap yards aparently around that time. To me that means they took a look around as opposed to rigorously inspecting the steel. The WTC 1 and 2 steel was the most important to get out of the way in terms of the rescue operations.

FEMA got help from SEAoNY in monitoring steel debris arriving at scrap yards with the goal of locating material from the impact zones. Again no description of rigorous inspection.

So, it would seem at least some WTC 1 and 2 steel was recycled without inspection.

[twinstead]

Then again, there is not very much about 9/11 that makes sense.

As a laymen, I rely on experts to help me understand complex events like 911. Pardon me if I weigh on one hand the qualifications of people who think that 'not very much about 9/11 that makes sense', and on the other hand those who think that for the most part the official explanation makes the most sense.

With all due respect 'there is not very much about 9/11 that makes sense' coming from one as obviously biased as you means next to nothing.

[GregoryUrich]

As a laymen, I rely on experts to help me understand complex events like 911. Pardon me if I weigh on one hand the qualifications of people who think that 'not very much about 9/11 that makes sense', and on the other hand those who think that for the most part the official explanation makes the most sense.

With all due respect 'there is not very much about 9/11 that makes sense' coming from one as obviously biased as you means next to nothing.

As far as I am concerned, no one has been able to convincingly demonstrate demolition or gravity driven collapse. That's how biased I am.

[Apollo20]

Well, twinstead, why don't you tell us what you think the mass of the twin towers was.... that is based on what the "experts' tell you it was.

[BenBurch]

In fact, however, it was all inspected by people who understand metal; The scrappers. Who would absolutely have alerted on anything out of order because you'd be a hero.

[twinstead]

As far as I am concerned, no one has been able to convincingly demonstrate demolition or gravity driven collapse. That's how biased I am.

So what am I to make of the fact that others disagree with you? Should I be concerned that you aren't convinced?

[twinstead]

Well, twinstead, why don't you tell us what you think the mass of the twin towers was.... that is based on what the "experts' tell you it was.

Some approximate it at 500,000 tons. Some disagree. I also know that structural engineering is not your field of study.

Are you one of the 'experts' I alluded to? Perhaps, perhaps not. ;)

[Apollo20]

Ah yes the scrappers....

" This chunk looks like Yawata WEL-TEN 60 all right, I could recognize that stuff with my eyes closed.... But wait a minute, what's this piece of CON-PAC 80 doing in a wide flange core column!"

[Apollo20]

twinstead:

Do you have references for your "500,000 tons", or would that be 500,000 tonnes?

[twinstead]

Ah yes the scrappers....

" This chunk looks like Yawata WEL-TEN 60 all right, I could recognize that stuff with my eyes closed.... But wait a minute, what's this piece of CON-PAC 80 doing in a wide flange core column!"

I assume you've just insulted 864 Union Scrappers

[BenBurch]

Ah yes the scrappers....

" This chunk looks like Yawata WEL-TEN 60 all right, I could recognize that stuff with my eyes closed.... But wait a minute, what's this piece of CON-PAC 80 doing in a wide flange core column!"

So you try to slide out by belittling them? Niiiiice.

[twinstead]

twinstead:

Do you have references for your "500,000 tons", or would that be 500,000 tonnes?

Based on the ground zero clean up material removed (the contracts were based on material removed)

Values ~ 1.7 million tons for the entire site are usually quoted, but this includes WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. If we let the mass of WTC 1 = x and assume:

Mass WTC 2 = x
Mass WTC 3 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 4 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 5 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 6 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 7 = 1/2x,

we have:

Mass of all the buildings at the WTC site = 1.7 million tons = 3.5x,

in which case x, the mass of a Twin Tower = 485,700 tons

But, I'm not an expert. I would gladly defer to any calculations you have, of course.

[rwguinn]

So you try to slide out by belittling them? Niiiiice.

Last job I was on, as a contract engineer, we had a "kid", Masters in ME, from a Big 12 school. He had the attitude of "I am an engineer--I know what I'm talking about". Gave me a ration of poo when I told him to isolate his Cast Iron A/C duct from my structure because I didn't need it in my load path. The boss sent him a link to the PE Registration site with my name on it.
I then proceeded to educate him on the fact that "Those welders, Mechanics, electricians, and fabricators have spent a lifetime learning their business. Most of them have been at it longer than you have been alive. What makes you think that they are not as good or better at their trade as you are at yours?"
He may make a pretty good engineer, now.
Its a secret some people never learn. Good Engineers and Scientists do. Bad and/or stupid ones never will.

[Gravy]

I have seen, on a number of threads, people incorrectly stating that all of the steel was available for inspection at Fresh Kills and was in fact inspected. I just wanted to provide the official facts, which, are very clear about half the steel going directly to various recyclers and also seem to indicate that at least half the steel was not inspected. Any sources indicating how much steel was actually inspected would be greatly appreciated.You are unlikely to find printed estimates of what percentage of steel was inspected by engineers. However, you could contact the people who did the inspections to see what they think. Will you?

I'm surprised that you haven't read the FEMA report, and don't know that most of the engineering inspections were done at the recycling yards.

From FEMA Report 403 Appendix D (http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apd.pdf): As of March 15, 2002, a total of 131 engineer visits had been made to these yards on 57 separate days. An engineer visit typically ranged from a few hours to an entire day at a salvage yard. The duration of the visits, number of visits per yard,
and the dates the yards were visited varied, depending on the volume of steel being processed, the potential significance of the steel pieces being found, salvage yard activities, weather, and other factors.

Sixty-two engineer trips were made to Jersey City, 38 to Keasbey, 15 to Fresh Kills, and 16 to Newark. Three trips made in October included several ASCE engineers. Eleven engineer trips were made in November, 41 in December, 43 in January, 28 in February, and 5 through March 15, 2002.

D.3.1 Identifying and Saving Pieces
As shown in Figure D-4, the engineers searched through unsorted piles of steel for pieces from WTC 1 and WTC 2 impact areas and from WTC 5 and WTC 7. They also checked for pieces of steel exposed to fire. Specifically, the engineers looked for the following types of steel members:
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were exposed to fire and/or impacted by the aircraft.
• Exterior column trees and interior core columns from WTC 1 and WTC 2 that were above the impact zone.
• Badly burnt pieces from WTC 7.
• Connections from WTC 1, 2, and 7, such as seat connections, single shear plates, and column splices.
• Bolts from WTC 1, 2, and 7 that were exposed to fire, fractured, and/or that appeared undamaged.
• Floor trusses, including stiffeners, seats, and other components.
• Any piece that, in the engineer’s professional opinion, might be useful for evaluation. When there was any doubt about a particular piece, the piece was kept while more information was gathered. A conservative approach was taken to avoid having important pieces processed in salvage yard operations.

[GregoryUrich]

Based on the ground zero clean up material removed (the contracts were based on material removed)

Values ~ 1.7 million tons for the entire site are usually quoted, but this includes WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. If we let the mass of WTC 1 = x and assume:

Mass WTC 2 = x
Mass WTC 3 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 4 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 5 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 6 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 7 = 1/2x,

we have:

Mass of all the buildings at the WTC site = 1.7 million tons = 3.5x,

in which case x, the mass of a Twin Tower = 485,700 tons

But, I'm not an expert. I would gladly defer to any calculations you have, of course.


I think you left out a few things. Here (http://www.cool-places.0catch.com/docs/MassAndPeWtc1.pdf) is a slightly more rigorous approach. See the section Appendix 1: Calculation of Debris Amount (p 29).

[rwguinn]

You are unlikely to find printed estimates of what percentage of steel was inspected by engineers. However, you could contact the people who did the inspections to see what they think. Will you?

I'm surprised that you haven't read the FEMA report, and don't know that most of the engineering inspections were done at the recycling yards.


[/left]
Don't go throwing FACTS into the mix, Gravy.
Gu-guy and Appoleptic know what they know, and that's all they need to know...

[GregoryUrich]

You are unlikely to find printed estimates of what percentage of steel was inspected by engineers. However, you could contact the people who did the inspections to see what they think. Will you?

I'm surprised that you haven't read the FEMA report, and don't know that most of the engineering inspections were done at the recycling yards.


[/LEFT]

Thanks Gravy. I've been mostly focused on the mass and structural stuff so, no, I haven't read the whole thing.

[BenBurch]

..."Those welders, Mechanics, electricians, and fabricators have spent a lifetime learning their business. Most of them have been at it longer than you have been alive. What makes you think that they are not as good or better at their trade as you are at yours?"...

Same applies in the electronics lab or the manufacturing line. Talk to the oldest hand there and ask him if he knows what's wrong. He often does, and he'll respect you more for having asked him. The problem with that is that some plants have such a hostile worker/management environment that particularly the oldest hand there would rather slit his wrist than venture any opinion to an engineer because engineers have the canary yellow management helmets. But you would certainly know it if you were in such a place and so the matter wouldn't come up...

[FactCheck]

It was the scrap yards that sold the steel and not the federal government.

http://doc.tms.org/ezMerchant/prodtms.nsf/ProductLookupItemID/JOM-0203-5/$FILE/JOM-0203-5F.pdf

[ihaunter]

If you actually read the quotes you will see that they didnt have access to investigate over 80% of the steel and that 80% was destroyed.

Not one source is a 911 site. please read the sites and the quotes before responding. sites like Gravys is real cherry picking.

scrap was hauled away by trucks involved in the clear-up operation, But instead of being taken to the FBI-controlled dump on Staten Island where all the material is being stored and sifted it was driven directly to the independently-owned scrapyards.

We know steel was hauled away to other scrapyards. And it doesnt matter witch scrapyards the steel was sent to anyway, the steel wasnt investigated and it was destroyed.. And if you dont mind being lied to, then you can trust FBI and the government.



one at a time? and how many seconds did that take?. It was 10 floors every second...

I did read the quotes. I also read the sources. The only one of them saying 80% is the one that I can not confirm. All the other quotes that give numbers indicate around 10% or less was sold/destroyed. It does matter which scrapyard it went to because the FBI was running the investigation of the scrap at those yards. My comment about the 911 sites was based on the URL's you listed. I saw 911research, 911investigations, 911podcasts. Those are 911 CT sites. I hadn't read all of them at the time, I was just going through them in order and showing why they weren't saying what you said they were saying. Most of your quotes show that a majority of the steel was investigated.

Question: Do you see anything wrong with editing out parts of quotes without giving any indication that you have done so? I don't mean snipping off the beginning and end to narrow the quote to the topic, but removing statements from within quote and making non-consecutive sentences appear consecutive. Do the words "changing the context" mean anything to you?

Why mention Gravy's sites? If you noticed, everything I used to discuss your links came from your links. I did not use any outside info. If you want to show that Gravy is cherry picking his quotes, feel free to start another thread show what's wrong with them.

[Malmoesoldier]

Important steel to the investigation was destroyed, thats what matters the most

The BPAT did not control the steel:

"No clear authority and the absence of an effective protocol for how the building performance investigators should conduct and coordinate their investigationwith the concurrent search and rescue efforts, as well as any criminal investigation: Early confusion over who was in charge of the site and the lack of authority of investigators to impound pieces of steel for examination before they were recycled led to the loss of important pieces of evidence that were destroyed early during the search and rescue effort. In addition, a delay in the deployment of FEMA's BPAT team may have compounded the lack of access to valuable data and artifacts."

The BPAT team does not plan, nor does it have sufficient funding, to fully analyze the structural data it collected to determine the reasons for the collapse of the WTC buildings.

"Uncertainty as to the strategy for completing the investigation and applying the lessons learned: The BPAT team does not plan, nor does it have sufficient funding, to fully analyze the structural data it collected to determine the reasons for the collapse of the WTC buildings. (Its report is expected to rely largely on audio and video tapes of the event.) Nor does it plan to examine other important issues, such as building evacuation mechanisms. Instead, FEMA has asked the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) to take over the investigation. Yet so far, NIST has not released a detailed plan describing how it will take over the investigation, what types of analyses it will conduct, how it will attempt to apply the lessons it learns to try to improve building and fire codes, and how much funding it will require."

"The efforts of NSF-funded researchers were impeded by the same obstacles the BPAT team encountered: an inability to examine the steel, either removed from the site during the early search and rescue work or shipped to recycling plants, and the denial of access to building design, construction and maintenance documents. (...)

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&sid=cp107EbuAM&refer=&r_n=hr530.107&db_id=107&item=&sel=TOC_32867&

"In the month that lapsed between the terrorist attacks and the deployment of the BPAT team, a significant amount of steel debris—including most of the steel from the upper floors—was removed from the rubble pile, cut into smaller sections, and either melted at the recycling plant or shipped out of the U.S. Some of the critical pieces of steel—including the suspension trusses from the top of the towers and the internal support columns—were gone before the first BPAT team member ever reached the site."

http://gop.science.house.gov/hot/wtc/charter.htm

Dr. Frederick W. Mowrer, an associate professor in the fire protection engineering department at the University of Maryland, said he believed the decision could ultimately compromise any investigation of the collapses."I find the speed with which potentially important evidence has been removed and recycled to be appalling."

structural engineers have said that one serious mistake has already been made in the chaotic aftermath of the collapses: the decision to rapidly recycle the steel columns, beams and trusses that held up the buildings.That may have cost investigators some of their most direct physical evidence with which to try to piece together an answer.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2001/nyt122501.html

And here are somes testimonies made before the Science Committee of the House of Representatives on March 6 2000:
Congressman Boehlert, Chairman of the Science Committee of the House of representatives:

"I must say that the current investigation- some would argue that 'review' is the more appropriate word- seems to be shrouded in excessive secrecy" and "…valuable evidence has been lost irretrievably, and blueprints were unavailable for months."

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy77747.000/hsy77747_0f.htm

In contrast to FEMA's investigation, which relied on volunteers from the ASCE, NIST's investigation was funded by Congress. However, NIST's investigation would not even start until virtually all of the steel had been removed from Ground Zero and recycled. On March 5, 2002, W. Gene Corley, leader of FEMA's Building Performance Study, testified to the House Science Committee about the need to further investigate the performance of buildings that were damaged or collapsed on 9/11/01. With his own study almost finished, Corley stated that it would take $40 million to adequately study the issue.

The $40 million would cover the expense of stockpiling the steel and other debris; examining the steel; physically testing the steel; partial parametric computer modeling of the steel, the fire, the plane and the blast; and the examination of egress issues, says Corley. From the study, tools could be developed to address fire as a structural design load and to understand the behavior of structural connections under fire conditions. Tools also could be developed to look at strategies against progressive collapse

Corley's call for millions to stockpile and examine the steel appears disingenuous since, by the time of his testimony, nearly all of the steel had been recycled. His ASCE volunteers had saved 156 pieces of steel, most of them small "coupons" cut from larger pieces. NIST would not need special facilities to store the steel, of which it had received 41 pieces by May of 2002.
NIST only got a total of 236 pieces of steel from WTC1-2 and 0 pieces from WTC7.

If 9-11 was an inside job, wouldnt evidence get destoyed?. wouldnt they put their people in power at scrapyards?. obs I forgot, that is impossible because the military industrial complex dont exist and NWO is for the kids.

[T.A.M.]

Can you answer this question?

PRIOR TO the completion of the FORENSIC Investigation of the WTC site, was any steel removed WITHOUT the permission of the FORENSIC INVESTIGATORS?

If the answer is yes, please present your proof. If the answer is no, then you have no point, and if the answer is you do not know, then you should try to find out before you accuse anyone of spoiling a crime scene.

TAM:)

[BenBurch]

Like any murder suicide, forensics ought to have been perfectly perfunctory on this case. You go through the motions, but there is never going to be anybody to try. In this case, however, they were especially hoping to find some evidence of who sent the hijackers.

The steel didn't matter, and STILL does not matter to the forensic investigation, because none of the investigators are as stupid, ill-educated, selfish, paranoid, or mean as the "truthers." In fact, I think we need to dig through the books and find as many crimes as we could colorably charge "truthers" with henceforth, because I think they are a cancer on the body-politic.

[T.A.M.]

...The steel didn't matter, and STILL does not matter to the forensic investigation, because none of the investigators are as stupid, ill-educated, selfish, paranoid, or mean as the "truthers." ...

I agree, and it is for this reason that I keep telling them that they have no argument when they claim the site was ILLEGALLY dismantled/disturbed prior to authorities investigating the crime.

The fact is, unless they can prove that the scene was altered before the CRIMINAL FORENSICS investigators were through, than what was done (dismantling, breaking down of) to the scene at GZ was not a crime. It may have been displeasing to those paranoids trying to "prove the USG carried out 9/11", but it was not a crime or illegal.

TAM:)

[Malmoesoldier]

Can you answer this question?

PRIOR TO the completion of the FORENSIC Investigation of the WTC site, was any steel removed WITHOUT the permission of the FORENSIC INVESTIGATORS?

If the answer is yes, please present your proof. If the answer is no, then you have no point, and if the answer is you do not know, then you should try to find out before you accuse anyone of spoiling a crime scene.

TAM:)

The Dr. CORLEY team and FEMA hadn't the authority even to ask the City of New York to cease and desist from disposing of the material, and the dr.corley team made it known that they needed steel.

[Lennart Hyland]

Malmoe for god sake stop copying text!

[T.A.M.]

ok, then what you are saying is for the purpose of the FEMA INVESTIGATION, the steel was removed before they had time to access ALL OF IT.

So you are not contending that the scene was SPOILED from a criminal point of view. THERE WAS NO CRIME committed by those who had the steel removed then...just inconvenient for the FEMA TEAM (which was not the forensic criminal investigation team).

TAM:)

[Malmoesoldier]

because none of the investigators are as stupid, ill-educated, selfish, paranoid, or mean as the "truthers."

I recommend that you read

NSSM 200

tragedy and hope.

The coming battle: A complete history of the national banking money power in the United States.

Circle of Intrigue.

Pawns in the Game.

I think you are the one that is ill-educated.

ok, then what you are saying is for the purpose of the FEMA INVESTIGATION, the steel was removed before they had time to access ALL OF IT.

So you are not contending that the scene was SPOILED from a criminal point of view. THERE WAS NO CRIME committed by those who had the steel removed then...just inconvenient for the FEMA TEAM (which was not the forensic criminal investigation team).

TAM:)

They only did a cover up exactly like they would have done if it was an inside job. WAKE UP

[FactCheck]

Corley or anyone else is talking about the fireproofing. Not ONE is suggesting they think the building was blown up and the government was covering it up. That the federal government couldn't stop the selling of steel in time doesn't mean they wanted it sold anyway.

Gene Corley, PhD., P.E., team leader for the ASCE/FEMA study team, concurred with the NIST recommendation for further research, and welcomed NIST's plan to host a conference for key standards-setting organizations to review and discuss the findings and recommendations. "The broader scope and more detailed report provides the comprehensive analysis needed to progress from determining the cause of the collapse to finding ways to improve building performance," stated Corley. "The structural engineering community and the public at large will benefit over the long term from the NIST study."

http://www.asce.org/pressroom/news/display_press.cfm?uid=1796

The NIST also wants to do more research into fireproofing. I think it's a good idea. And maybe they needed more samples to analyze the application and response of the fireproofing but that's far from your continued dishonest mischaracterization of those quotes. You're trying to make it sound like they needed the steel to see if the fire caused the collapse. You are also trying to make it sound like the federal government was to blame for the sale of steel. That's a flat out lie. You KNOW you're taking those quotes out of context for that purpose. You're no better than the administration you claim lied to the public. You're using the same tactics.

The NIST is also still studying progressive collapse. The steel isn't needed because they have computer models and existing progressive collapse codes from other countries to work with.

http://wtc.nist.gov/media/ProgressiveCollapse.htm

Try keeping quotes in context and from this century.

[Malmoesoldier]

. You're trying to make it sound like they needed the steel to see if the fire caused the collapse. You are also trying to make it sound like the federal government was to blame for the sale of steel. That's a flat out lie.

The steel isn't needed because they have computer models and existing progressive collapse codes from other countries to work with.

Offcourse you need the steel to prove what caused the collapse, and to see how much damge the fire+plane did to it. You cant prove that with a computer model :confused: you are full of BS. Would you like it if 9-11 happened in another contry and the government destroyed the evidence and put in fantasy "results" in their computer model, and then said "this is what happened!" and bombed your contry. everybody that says NIST explains the collapse in their report with proof is full of BS and probably are very confused of what happens in the world around theme, cant be easy to not understand anything around you... And i guess you shouldnt blame the government for the destruction of the steel when it was theme that did it, i guess you should blame somebody that didnt do it? thats the way you like it? , go and love your new world order punk.

And the world is still waiting for the visualization of the collapse from NIST.

[twinstead]

So if Malmoesoldier thinks they definitely need the steel to prove what caused the collapse and finds it suspicious how it was collected and disposed of, then by God it must mean something!

Malmoesoldier thinks 911 was an inside job. Well there ya go. Done deal. It's an inside job.

Glad we got that cleared up. Obviously Malmoesoldier thinks that it's impossible for people just a smart or smarter than he to look at the same facts and come to a totally different conclusion.

Frankly Malmoesoldier I think anybody as obscenely biased as you should be banned from investigating where you left their car keys, much less an event as complex as 911.

With all due respect, of course.

[twinstead]

And the world is still waiting for the visualization of the collapse from NIST.

If by 'the world' you mean a small percentage of paranoid conspiracy theorists, then yea, you're probably right.

Otherwise 'the world' isn't waiting for squat.

[DGM]

Offcourse you need the steel to prove what caused the collapse, and to see how much damge the fire+plane did to it. You cant prove that with a computer model :confused: you are full of BS. Would you like it if 9-11 happened in another contry and the government destroyed the evidence and put in fantasy "results" in their computer model, and then said "this is what happened!" and bombed your contry. everybody that says NIST explains the collapse in their report with proof is full of BS and probably are very confused of what happens in the world around theme, cant be easy to not understand anything around you... And i guess you shouldnt blame the government for the destruction of the steel when it was theme that did it, i guess you should blame somebody that didnt do it? thats the way you like it? , go and love your new world order punk.

And the world is still waiting for the visualization of the collapse from NIST.

Why NIST? Anyone with half a brain can see what happened on youtube. No explosives seen there, only in the minds of the fantasist.

[BenBurch]

Why NIST? Anyone with half a brain can see what happened on youtube. No explosives seen there, only in the minds of the fantasist.

Exactly. Only organically-defective idiots need to see more than that.

[Malmoesoldier]

yes offcourse you see what happens on videos on youtube, it wouldnt look like that if it was controlled demolition, not at all. Grow up, educate yourself, live free or die

[BenBurch]

yes offcourse you see what happens on videos on youtube, it wouldnt look like that if it was controlled demolition, not at all. Grow up, educate yourself, live free or die

The University of Chicago and many years as a working engineer saw to my education, thanks, though.

[DGM]

yes offcourse you see what happens on videos on youtube, it wouldnt look like that if it was controlled demolition, not at all.

Got to agree with you there. You would have explosions and lots of 'BANGS'. Good point.

Grow up, educate yourself, live free or die

Been there done that. As far as the live free, I do (except for taxes).I'm an American.

[FactCheck]

Offcourse you need the steel to prove what caused the collapse, and to see how much damge the fire+plane did to it. You cant prove that with a computer model :confused: you are full of BS.

1 - They had enough steel concude how the towers collapsed. The proof is no one suggests they didn't other than 9/11 conspiracy theorists like you.

2 - It's IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to PROVE what happened. Grown ups know you can only draw conclusions as to the most likely cause of collapse. The only way to prove what caused the collapse is to go back in time and implant scientific measuring equipment. Do you or the other conspiracy theorists have a time machine??? ":confused: you are full of BS."

"Would you like it if 9-11 happened in another contry and the government destroyed the evidence"

It was the scrap yards that destroyed the evidence. Do you have any evidence that the scrap yards are in cahoots with the government? A memo? Anything? No... And no, I don't want to spend millions on an investigation without a shed of evidence other than small group paranoia.

"and put in fantasy "results" in their computer model,"

That would have been uncovered by REAL scientists who could easily create their own computer model to prove them wrong. There is at least one other computer model which agrees with the NIST model created by an insurance company. But you don't even need a computer model because the mass above the impact zone was massively more than the gusset plates could withstand.

"and then said "this is what happened!" and bombed your contry."

One has NOTHING to do with the other. Because if the administration wanted to invade Iraq by creating 9/11 they would have planted evidence Iraq was involved. Why in the hell would they go through so much trouble and not implicate Saddam in the evidence??? That part of the conspiracy story is the most absurd and telling.

"everybody that says NIST explains the collapse in their report with proof is full of BS and probably are very confused of what happens in the world around theme, cant be easy to not understand anything around you... And i guess you shouldnt blame the government for the destruction of the steel when it was theme that did it, i guess you should blame somebody that didnt do it? thats the way you like it? , go and love your new world order punk."

Anyone who says the NIST didn't give the best hypothesis for the collapse is full of BS. The proof they're full of BS is that they don't have a peer reviewed paper from any respected scientific journal pointing out the buildings couldn't have collapsed the way they did.

You want to talk about themes? What about the theme of the conspiracy story and how the leadership lies to it's minions?

http://www.jod911.com/evidence.pdf

http://www.jod911.com/evidence2.pdf

Now that's a theme which continues to this day.

And the world is still waiting for the visualization of the collapse from NIST.For what? Your perverse amusement?

[Apollo20]

Twinstead:

I don't believe you did this, but if you are going to cut and paste MY calculation in answer to one of MY questions, please give me credit for it ..... as in this priceless example:

"Values ~ 1.7 million tons for the entire site are usually quoted, but this includes WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. If we let the mass of WTC 1 = x and assume:

Mass WTC 2 = x
Mass WTC 3 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 4 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 5 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 6 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 7 = 1/2x,

we have:

Mass of all the buildings at the WTC site = 1.7 million tons = 3.5x,

in which case x, the mass of a Twin Tower = 485,700 tons"

[BenBurch]

Twinstead:

I don't believe you did this, but if you are going to cut and paste MY calculation in answer to one of MY questions, please give me credit for it ..... as in this priceless example:

"Values ~ 1.7 million tons for the entire site are usually quoted, but this includes WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. If we let the mass of WTC 1 = x and assume:

Mass WTC 2 = x
Mass WTC 3 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 4 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 5 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 6 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 7 = 1/2x,

we have:

Mass of all the buildings at the WTC site = 1.7 million tons = 3.5x,

in which case x, the mass of a Twin Tower = 485,700 tons"

:i:

[Apollo20]

NO, NOT IRONY, PLAGIARISM!

I posted this on PhysOrg on: Jan 17 2006, 12:43 AM:

Replies: 22
Views: 10109 There is another way to estimate the mass of one WTC Tower. That is from the mass of the rubble pile. Because ground zero clean-up contracts were based on a specific WEIGHT REMOVED, there are good records of the mass of material removed from the WTC site after 9-11......

Values ~ 1.7 million tons for the entire site are usually quoted, but this includes WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. If we let the mass of WTC 1 = x and assume:

Mass WTC 2 = x
Mass WTC 3 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 4 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 5 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 6 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 7 = 1/2x,

we have:

Mass of all the buildings at the WTC site = 1.7 million tons = 3.5x,

in which case x, the mass of a Twin Tower = 485,700 tons

.................................................. .................................................

If I was twinstead I wouldn't be posting on this thread anymore.

But before you leave, twinstead old bean, how about 'fessing-up to what you did now that you've been caught!

[RedIbis]

NO, NOT IRONY, PLAGIARISM!



Caught plagiarizing by presenting the information to the original author. Now that is a classic.

[Malmoesoldier]

One has NOTHING to do with the other. Because if the administration wanted to invade Iraq by creating 9/11 they would have planted evidence Iraq was involved. Why in the hell would they go through so much trouble and not implicate Saddam in the evidence??? That part of the conspiracy story is the most absurd and telling.

They had enough steel concude how the towers collapsed.

Anyone who says the NIST didn't give the best hypothesis for the collapse is full of BS. The proof they're full of BS is that they don't have a peer reviewed paper from any respected scientific journal pointing out the buildings couldn't have collapsed the way they did.

They said sadam had weapons of mass destruction and that he sent out anthrax letters. all LIES. And donald rumsfeld supplied him poison gas that he used against Iranians and Kurds while the United States looked the other way.

NIST have said that they would investigate alternative collapse hypothesis but they didnt do it why? and there are enough reasons to discusse if explosives where involved witch any sane person understands.

Why did NIST break the LAW and didnt look for thermate? if there is a fire in a building you look for thermate. thats the law...

If other scientist had ACCESS to their photos/videos/documents/the visualization of the collapse etc, then maybe there would be more criticism, this is behaviour you would expect from a cover up, not allowing any one else to look at their findings.

And how can they have had "enoug" steel if they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have?? even James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST disagrees with you. Again what they have is pure speculation and fantasty "results" from their computer, you are right it is impossible for NIST to prove what caused the collapse. so maybe it is time to test out new hypothesis and start an independent investigation. and they wont even show the visualization of the collapse, afraid of something?.

The University of Chicago and many years as a working engineer saw to my education, thanks, though.

You dont get educated on history in school, offcourse you can be very educated in certain areas but you must educate yourself if you want to know any real history. if you are educated then i am sure that you are well aware of that your government has killed their own civilian people over and over again, so why not on 9-11?.

[DGM]

And how can they have had "enoug" steel if they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have?? even James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST disagrees with you. Again what they have is pure speculation and fantasy "results" from their computer, you are right it is impossible for NIST to prove what caused the collapse. so maybe it is time to test out new hypothesis and start an independent investigation. and they wont even show the visualization of the collapse, afraid of something?.

What does he have to say about your demolition fantasy? You really stink at this cherry picking stuff.

[T.A.M.]

They only did a cover up exactly like they would have done if it was an inside job. WAKE UP

LOL

TAM:)

[T.A.M.]

yes offcourse you see what happens on videos on youtube, it wouldnt look like that if it was controlled demolition, not at all. Grow up, educate yourself, live free or die

11 years of university, 9 didactic, 2 clinical...I think I am done with the book learnin' as well.

TAM:)

[twinstead]

NO, NOT IRONY, PLAGIARISM!

I posted this on PhysOrg on: Jan 17 2006, 12:43 AM:

Replies: 22
Views: 10109 There is another way to estimate the mass of one WTC Tower. That is from the mass of the rubble pile. Because ground zero clean-up contracts were based on a specific WEIGHT REMOVED, there are good records of the mass of material removed from the WTC site after 9-11......

Values ~ 1.7 million tons for the entire site are usually quoted, but this includes WTC 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. If we let the mass of WTC 1 = x and assume:

Mass WTC 2 = x
Mass WTC 3 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 4 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 5 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 6 = 1/4x
Mass WTC 7 = 1/2x,

we have:

Mass of all the buildings at the WTC site = 1.7 million tons = 3.5x,

in which case x, the mass of a Twin Tower = 485,700 tons

.................................................. .................................................

If I was twinstead I wouldn't be posting on this thread anymore.

But before you leave, twinstead old bean, how about 'fessing-up to what you did now that you've been caught!

Been caught doing what? You asked me where I got the figure of 500,000, and I told you. Did I ever suggest that I came to this conclusion myself? Did I ever suggest that this was my formula? So I didn't remember it was you? Big deal. I got that from another forum. My bad. but I NEVER said it was my formula. NEVER.

Jesus. I told you I am a layman. I get my information from, and I rely on, experts in relevant fields. There are many, many experts who have commented on the WTC collapses who have more knowledge on the subject than you. Deal with it.

In the meantime, explain to me what I was 'caught' doing?

ETA: You're a persnikity old coot, aren't you?

[T.A.M.]

They said sadam had weapons of mass destruction and that he sent out anthrax letters. all LIES. And donald rumsfeld supplied him poison gas that he used against Iranians and Kurds while the United States looked the other way.

There is a difference between poor intelligence and lies. Of course, only the latter is ever made note of or brought forward in trutherland.


NIST have said that they would investigate alternative collapse hypothesis but they didnt do it why? and there are enough reasons to discusse if explosives where involved witch any sane person understands.

1. Reference please.
2. If they did state this, where is your proof that they didn't look into other hypothesis? Because the NIST report may not go into them, does not mean they were not looked into.
3. There is NO EVIDENCE for the use of explosives, but that is enough for any INSANE truther to understand.


Why did NIST break the LAW and didnt look for thermate? if there is a fire in a building you look for thermate. thats the law...

Once again, NIST DID NOT BREAK THE LAW!!!!!!


If other scientist had ACCESS to their photos/videos/documents/the visualization of the collapse etc, then maybe there would be more criticism, this is behaviour you would expect from a cover up, not allowing any one else to look at their findings.

Source please. Where is your proof others have not had access to their videos, photos, documents, etc... You think because YOU DO NOT, that no one did?


You dont get educated on history in school, offcourse you can be very educated in certain areas but you must educate yourself if you want to know any real history. if you are educated then i am sure that you are well aware of that your government has killed their own civilian people over and over again, so why not on 9-11?.

Yes, please show us where the US Government has been found to have killed their own, purposely? Northwoods doesn't count....

And 3...2...1... presto magic, the same old truther canards about to appear.

TAM:)

[cloudshipsrule]

In twin's defense, he didn't claim to have come up with the calculations himself. However, by him not including a reference one could infer he was trying to pass it off as his own. Only he knows his intentions.

Offcourse you need the steel to prove what caused the collapse, and to see how much damge the fire+plane did to it.

Will there ever be any proof you'll believe which doesn't come to the conclusion it was all an inside job?

[twinstead]

In twin's defense, he didn't claim to have come up with the calculations himself. However, by him not including a reference one could infer he was trying to pass it off as his own. Only he knows his intentions.



Anybody who has even read even a dozen of my posts could only come to the conclusion that I could not come up with those calculations on my own.

Does Apollo want to debate me about how to set up a network with a gigabit backbone? I'll be on him like white on rice.

Calculating the mass of the WTC? LOL

Get real.

[T.A.M.]

Well I think twinstead should have quoted the author. If he quoted it from a posting from Dr. Greening, then he should be referenced. If he quoted it from someone, who themselves quoted it (plagiarized) from Dr. Greening, then he should list them as the reference. While it was perhaps an error, Unless it was taken from part of a paper you have published or copyrighted, I think you are going a little overboard Frank.

A simple;

"Please list me as a reference the next time you quote my stuff" would probably have done...and would have likely elicited a "oh my god, i am sorry, I did not know it was yours"...

TAM:)

[twinstead]

I didn't know he wanted to officially know with references where I got that figure. Had I known he was playing some kind of game I would have covered my ass.

Lesson learned.

[DGM]

Anybody who has even read even a dozen of my posts could only come to the conclusion that I could not come up with those calculations on my own.

Does Apollo want to debate me about how to set up a network with a gigabit backbone? I'll be on him like white on rice.

Calculating the mass of the WTC? LOL

Get real.
It looked to me that you posted that because Apollo20 was baiting you to post his own work. I don't understand why he was questioning the figure considering it was his.

Maybe he just needed a pat on the back and you failed to give it to him.

[twinstead]

It looked to me that you posted that because Apollo20 was baiting you to post his own work. I don't understand why he was questioning the figure considering it was his.

Maybe he just needed a pat on the back and you failed to give it to him.

Well, whatever freakish reason he had for baiting me, I fell for it. I found his formulas on a different forum months ago and he wasn't mentioned at all.

I had no idea the figure was his.

I can only speculate as to why he played his little game with me; I'm not an expert in anything. My entire contribution to this forum consists of moral outrage of CTs claims.

Obviously he picked the easy prey to pick on.

[T.A.M.]

I think you were "made an example of". It is unfortunate, but you're strong, you can take it...lol

TAM:)

[twinstead]

I think you were "made an example of". It is unfortunate, but you're strong, you can take it...lol


I jumped in the water with the sharks and I was bitten.

If Frank were to jump in my water he would know what it is like.

Regardless, the official explanation of 911 is the theory that fits the available evidence the best. It's really all about that anyway.

The rest is just fluff.

[LashL]

Anybody who has even read even a dozen of my posts could only come to the conclusion that I could not come up with those calculations on my own.

Although it would have been best had you cited the source of the info, twinstead, don't worry about Greening's accusation for a second. Your history here speaks for itself, and I, for one, do not think for a moment that you were trying to deceive anyone with your post.

Oh, and a hint for identifying Greening by his user names on forums - look for his favourite conspiracy theories. He uses Apollo20 here and NeuFonze at PhysOrg. "Apollo20" refers to the alien spaceship conspiracy and "NeuFonze" is a play on the french "neuf onze" or 9/11. Who knows where he uses "GrassyKnoll" and "Waco"... ;)

[LashL]

Well, whatever freakish reason he had for baiting me, I fell for it. I found his formulas on a different forum months ago and he wasn't mentioned at all.

I had no idea the figure was his.


There is no reason that you would know that he uses a different user name there. Again, don't worry about it at all. Your history here speaks for itself.

[twinstead]

Oh, and a hint for identifying Greening by his user names on forums - look for his favourite conspiracy theories. He uses Apollo20 here and NeuFonze at PhysOrg. "Apollo20" refers to the alien spaceship conspiracy and "NeuFonze" is a play on the french "neuf onze" or 9/11. Who knows where he uses "GrassyKnoll" and "Waco"... ;)

Ah, had I had this information perhaps this minor issue would never had happened. Thanks.

[FactCheck]

They said sadam had weapons of mass destruction and that he sent out anthrax letters. all LIES.

You made it sound like those people you quoted suspect controlled demolition. All LIES. Does that mean you blew up the towers? Someone call homeland security!!!

"And donald rumsfeld supplied him poison gas that he used against Iranians and Kurds while the United States looked the other way."

And we look the other way for a lot of other atrocities all throughout history. Every president does. Are they all in this massive conspiracy? Heh!

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

NIST have said that they would investigate alternative collapse hypothesis but they didnt do it why?

Another lie, they DID investigate CD but found no evidence to support looking into it further. You'll just pretend they're lying anyway so don't make it sound like you would accept anything they say.

"and there are enough reasons to discuss if explosives where involved witch any sane person understands."

And they DID.

As part of determining likely modes of failure in WTC 7, impact by falling debris from WTC 1, fire events, and hypothetical blast events are being considered for their contribution to the collapse of WTC 7. NIST has documented debris damage and fire growth and spread in WTC 7, based on available evidence. NIST is analyzing scenarios for the event that initiated the collapse of the building. As a part of this work, NIST is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements as a result of blast.

http://wtc.nist.gov/solicitations/wtc_award0539.htm

So now there are even more people in this already massive conspiracy. Absurd!

Why did NIST break the LAW and didnt look for thermate? if there is a fire in a building you look for thermate. thats the law...

1 - Because it doesn't look like thermite

2 - Because thermite is the most dumbest way to blow up a building constructed like this

3 - Because I can prove the people who suggest thermite are as good (Or bad if you consider the evidence they present) liars and anyone in the administration.

4 - They didn't break any law. That's just nonsense.

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

If other scientist had ACCESS to their photos/videos/documents/the visualization of the collapse etc, then maybe there would be more criticism, this is behaviour you would expect from a cover up, not allowing any one else to look at their findings.

Go ask for an accident report which involved the deaths of one or more people from any agency or company. Let me know how that works out for you. Heh!

And how can they have had "enoug" steel if they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have?? even James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of NIST disagrees with you. Again what they have is pure speculation and fantasty "results" from their computer, you are right it is impossible for NIST to prove what caused the collapse. so maybe it is time to test out new hypothesis and start an independent investigation. and they wont even show the visualization of the collapse, afraid of something?.

Let me know when you stop lying.

1. Why is not the design process of assigning fire protection to the WTC towers fully called out for fault? The insulation thickness of the truss members varied from 0.5 inches at its construction, changed to a specification of 1.5 inches in 1995, and was taken on its face as 2.5 inches for the North tower fire floors based on a PA report. This extraordinary range of thicknesses bears an in depth investigation. Why were no hearings held or witness testimonies heard on this critical design process?

2. Why were not alternative collapse hypotheses investigated and discussed as NIST had stated repeatedly that they would do? Their current explanation for the collapse of the towers is critically based on an assumption that the insulation was removed from the steel in the path of the aircraft, particularly the core columns. NIST does not show calculations or experiments to satisfactorily confirm that the insulation was removed in the core. As some large aircraft components went directly through the buildings, and NIST indicates the others were splintered on impact, can they explain why these small splinters could still denude the steel?

3. Spoliation of a fire scene is a basis for destroying a legal case in an investigation. Most of the steel was discarded, although the key elements of the core steel were demographically labeled. A careful reading of the NIST report shows that they have no evidence that the temperatures they predict as necessary for failure are corroborated by findings of the little steel debris they have. Why hasn't NIST declared that this spoliation of the steel was a gross error?

4. NIST used computer models that they said have never been used in such an application before and are the state of the art. For this they should be commended for their skill. But the validation of these modeling results is in question. Others have computed aspects with different conclusions on the cause mechanism of the collapse. Moreover, it is common in fire investigation to compute a time-line and compare it to known events. NIST has not done that.

5. Testing by NIST has been inconclusive. Although they have done fire tests of the scale of several work stations, a replicate test of at least & of a WTC floor would have been of considerable value. Why was this not done? Especially, as we have pointed out to NIST that they may have underestimated the weight of the furnishings in the North Tower by a factor of 3. As fire effects on structure depend on temperature and time, this likely longer burning time is significant in the NIST analyses. Other tests of the trusses in the UL furnaces show that the steel attains critical temperatures in short times, and these temperatures correspond to NIST's own computation of truss failure for a single truss. Why have these findings seemingly been ignored in the NIST analyses?


http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/science/hsy24133.000/hsy24133_0.HTM#259


Not only is he saying he thinks the problem is the fireproofing but he is saying the UL tests show the steel "attains critical temperatures in short times". Yet you have come here time and time again quoting only what makes it seem like he thought the collapse was due to controlled demolition. You may as well work for Bush.

You dont get educated on history in school, of course you can be very educated in certain areas but you must educate yourself if you want to know any real history. if you are educated then i am sure that you are well aware of that your government has killed their own civilian people over and over again, so why not on 9-11?.

The reason we know about Iran Contra and other conspiracies is because people talk. And conspiracy theorist have killed people before too. Waco was about the conspiracy of government to take away guns. OKC was over Waco. Maybe you blew up the towers... Hummmm......

It's people like you who put innocent people on death row just because someone picked the wrong time to purchase an insurance policy. "He must have killed his wife because he took out an insurance policy!"

Wheres the evidence, the REAL evidence, the firemen on GZ who saw a blasting cap which failed or a memo, SOMETHING other than linking other conspiracy theories with 9/11.

Using 9/11 as most leaders in the world did is very different than causing it.

[rwguinn]

Although it would have been best had you cited the source of the info, twinstead, don't worry about Greening's accusation for a second. Your history here speaks for itself, and I, for one, do not think for a moment that you were trying to deceive anyone with your post.

Oh, and a hint for identifying Greening by his user names on forums - look for his favourite conspiracy theories. He uses Apollo20 here and NeuFonze at PhysOrg. "Apollo20" refers to the alien spaceship conspiracy and "NeuFonze" is a play on the french "neuf onze" or 9/11. Who knows where he uses "GrassyKnoll" and "Waco"... ;)

Unlike a certain Chemistry PhD who posted links to, and quoted, "his" paper, never correcting anyone that he was merely 3rd or 4th author, not the primary....

[Malmoesoldier]

Yes, please show us where the US Government has been found to have killed their own

Your government funded hitler and put him into power.

They killed kennedy.

They have tested deadly pathogens, viruses, radiological and biological weapons on human populations (that has killed many people) without their knowledge in order to advance the progress of eugenics.

They have started wars based on lies, vietnam, iraq etc.

They are funding terrorist organisations like al-qaida.

They are killing people with the heroin/coke that they are dealing.

They killed kids at waco.

They was behind OKC.

There you have some examples.

he is saying the UL tests show the steel "attains critical temperatures in short times".

in that test, at the 33 minute mark it was at 1100C and at the 41 minute mark it was 400C. All tests NIST have done is bs, they dont even use the results. they like to play with their computer instead of doing tests and experiments. NIST is a joke, time for an independent investigation. And they didnt look for thermite/thermate so they did break the law.

[twinstead]

NIST is a joke, time for an independent investigation. And they didnt look for thermite/thermate so they did break the law.

1. exactly who will perform this 'independent investigation' and
2. What if this 'independent investigation' comes to the same conclusion as NIST?

I will bet big money you won't change your position. Ideologues don't do that.

[LashL]

Your government funded hitler and put him into power.

They killed kennedy.

They have tested deadly pathogens, viruses, radiological and biological weapons on human populations (that has killed many people) without their knowledge in order to advance the progress of eugenics.

They have started wars based on lies, vietnam, iraq etc.

They are funding terrorist organisations like al-qaida.

They are killing people with the heroin/coke that they are dealing.

They killed kids at waco.

They was behind OKC.

There you have some examples.

I have it on very good authority that T.A.M.'s government had nothing to do with any of these things.



in that test, at the 33 minute mark it was at 1100C and at the 41 minute mark it was 400C. All tests NIST have done is bs, they dont even use the results. they like to play with their computer instead of doing tests and experiments. NIST is a joke, time for an independent investigation. And they didnt look for thermite/thermate so they did break the law.


Wrong again.

[DGM]

I have it on very good authority that T.A.M.'s government had nothing to do with any of these things.






Wrong again.
I'm still trying to figure out what law says they had to look for Thermate/mite.:confused:

[Tbone]

I'm still trying to figure out what law says they had to look for Thermate/mite.:confused:

I would like to know this as well. Do fire investigators have to look for thermite at every housefire? Is it a federal law? State law? Local law? Part of NIST's mandate?

[BenBurch]

Malemute? You think the Government killed JFK? Silly me! I thought JFK ran the government.

[Malmoesoldier]

1. exactly who will perform this 'independent investigation' and
2. What if this 'independent investigation' comes to the same conclusion as NIST?

I will bet big money you won't change your position. Ideologues don't do that.

scientist and engineers from all over the world, you should let many scientist look at it not just a team picked by the government. I would accept it if they or NIST had evidence that fire+plane damge caused the collapse.

I have it on very good authority that T.A.M.'s government had nothing to do with any of these things.

Wrong again.

I thought he was from america. And what am i wrong about, what tests do you mean source and page?

I'm still trying to figure out what law says they had to look for Thermate/mite.:confused:

"NFPA 921Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations clearly states:
“Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials.” This is the standard procedure for fire and explosion investigations - looking for thermite residues. Was it applied to the WTC “crime scene”? NIST was asked:
Question: “Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues?” The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) “slices through steel like a hot knife through butter.” Answer; “NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.”

Malemute? You think the Government killed JFK? Silly me! I thought JFK ran the government.

It is proven without any doubt that CIA was involved with the kennedy assassination.

[BenBurch]

s
It is proven without any doubt that CIA was involved with the kennedy assassination.

:bs:

[Malmoesoldier]

:bs:

Like i say it is proven. Didnt fox news tell you that?. j edgar hoover did alot of good investigation and then we have E. Howard Hunts deathbed confession. i wonder why that wasnt on the front page on every newspaper, they only report things about Britney spears you haft to go to sites like infowars to get real news today.

[rwguinn]

:bs:

It must be a frightening thing to go through life with such certainty of knowledge.:tragedy:

[tsig]

Like any murder suicide, forensics ought to have been perfectly perfunctory on this case. You go through the motions, but there is never going to be anybody to try. In this case, however, they were especially hoping to find some evidence of who sent the hijackers.

The steel didn't matter, and STILL does not matter to the forensic investigation, because none of the investigators are as stupid, ill-educated, selfish, paranoid, or mean as the "truthers." In fact, I think we need to dig through the books and find as many crimes as we could colorably charge "truthers" with henceforth, because I think they are a cancer on the body-politic.


Maybe hindering an investigation?

[BenBurch]

It must be a frightening thing to go through life with such certainty of knowledge.:tragedy:

YOU think the CIA did Kennedy?

Sorry, but I waffle between the "Oswald did it alone" and "Oswald did this and somebody gave him the idea." camps myself. (The problem with the latter is that there is very little evidence for it, but to me his time in Russia makes him a prime candidate for a Soviet agent.)

[tsig]

I recommend that you read

NSSM 200

tragedy and hope.

The coming battle: A complete history of the national banking money power in the United States.

Circle of Intrigue.

Pawns in the Game.

I think you are the one that is ill-educated.



They only did a cover up exactly like they would have done if it was an inside job. WAKE UP

Cobwebs of incoherence.

You must live in a world of mystery.

[DGM]

"NFPA 921Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations clearly states:
“Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from thermite, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials.” This is the standard procedure for fire and explosion investigations - looking for thermite residues. Was it applied to the WTC “crime scene”? NIST was asked:
Question: “Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues?” The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) “slices through steel like a hot knife through butter.” Answer; “NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.”


You really have no clue do you? NFPA does not make laws genius. So what law did they break? You really are making this up as you go.

Anyone keeping score? Has he gotten anything right yet?

[tsig]

Offcourse you need the steel to prove what caused the collapse, and to see how much damge the fire+plane did to it. You cant prove that with a computer model :confused: you are full of BS. Would you like it if 9-11 happened in another contry and the government destroyed the evidence and put in fantasy "results" in their computer model, and then said "this is what happened!" and bombed your contry. everybody that says NIST explains the collapse in their report with proof is full of BS and probably are very confused of what happens in the world around theme, cant be easy to not understand anything around you... And i guess you shouldnt blame the government for the destruction of the steel when it was theme that did it, i guess you should blame somebody that didnt do it? thats the way you like it? , go and love your new world order punk.

And the world is still waiting for the visualization of the collapse from NIST.



Your block-of-text bloodies the eyes.

[LashL]

I thought he was from america.

I assume that you meant to say that you thought he was from the U.S.A. Your post demonstrates not only your ignorance of geography but also demonstrates that the extent and depth of your research does not even extend so far as to look to the left where his location is conveniently spelled out for you in each and every one of his posts.

Way to go, Sherlock. :rolleyes:


And what am i wrong about

Hmm, just about everything that you have posted here to date.


what tests do you mean source and page?

Given that I did not refer to or cite any tests (as your previous nonsensical post did not require any such references), your question is, frankly, silly.

Try again.

[LashL]

Has he gotten anything right yet?


No.

[rwguinn]

YOU think the CIA did Kennedy?

Sorry, but I waffle between the "Oswald did it alone" and "Oswald did this and somebody gave him the idea." camps myself. (The problem with the latter is that there is very little evidence for it, but to me his time in Russia makes him a prime candidate for a Soviet agent.)

Sorry!
Since I have "bad chief stooge" on ignore, I was responding to the quote you had from him, knowing that you hold the same view I do on this BS..

Mine apologies, BB...:o

[tsig]

Your government funded hitler and put him into power.

They killed kennedy.

They have tested deadly pathogens, viruses, radiological and biological weapons on human populations (that has killed many people) without their knowledge in order to advance the progress of eugenics.

They have started wars based on lies, vietnam, iraq etc.

They are funding terrorist organisations like al-qaida.

They are killing people with the heroin/coke that they are dealing.

They killed kids at waco.

They was behind OKC.

There you have some examples.



in that test, at the 33 minute mark it was at 1100C and at the 41 minute mark it was 400C. All tests NIST have done is bs, they dont even use the results. they like to play with their computer instead of doing tests and experiments. NIST is a joke, time for an independent investigation. And they didnt look for thermite/thermate so they did break the law.

I'm getting a lot more for my taxes than I thought!

[tsig]

Like i say it is proven. Didnt fox news tell you that?. j edgar hoover did alot of good investigation and then we have E. Howard Hunts deathbed confession. i wonder why that wasnt on the front page on every newspaper, they only report things about Britney spears you haft to go to sites like infowars to get real news today.

As I say It is written Darwin on his deathbed said "I was right"

J edgar hoover wore dresses and tresses.

[FactCheck]

Your government funded hitler and put him into power.

They killed kennedy.

They have tested deadly pathogens, viruses, radiological and biological weapons on human populations (that has killed many people) without their knowledge in order to advance the progress of eugenics.

They have started wars based on lies, vietnam, iraq etc.

They are funding terrorist organisations like al-qaida.

They are killing people with the heroin/coke that they are dealing.

They killed kids at waco.

They was behind OKC.

There you have some examples.

In other words you believe everything Rev. Alex Jones preaches. You gave me typical conspiracy theories which have NO bases in fact. I'm supprised you didn't put Area 59 in there. Heh!

4ikRc4ER2xY

in that test, at the 33 minute mark it was at 1100C and at the 41 minute mark it was 400C.

What's your point? The NIST said it was the cooling of the trusses which pulled the columns in. They expanded early due to heat, sagged, then cooled and contracted pulling the columns in. THEY ARE USING THE UL FINDINGS in creating recommendations for building code.

All tests NIST have done is bs, they dont even use the results. they like to play with their computer instead of doing tests and experiments. NIST is a joke, time for an independent investigation. And they didnt look for thermite/thermate so they did break the law.

You KNOW that test was not setup to replicate the towers after impact. You KNOW this because it was told to you on this thread with a link to the evidence. Keep using neocon tactics to help your friend Rev Jones make more money off dead people.

[Dave Rogers]

Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum – one of the foundational Laws of Physics? That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors – and intact steel support columns – the fall must be significantly impeded [i.e. slowed down] by the impacted mass.

The discussion seems to have moved on without anyone addressing this point, but someone should point out how completely out to lunch this assertion is. There's a series of studies by Frank Greening, much-loved on this forum as Apollo20, at http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html in which he carries out all these calculations and finds that the observed collapse times agree well with predictions including the conservation of momentum and the fracture energy of the support columns. I've carried out a similar calculation myself - it's simple enough to do on a spreadsheet - and found the same conclusion. I've even come across a truther site that does the same calculation, reaches the same conclusion then rejects its own conclusion and decides there must have been explosives used. Simple summary: there is nothing whatsoever in the collapse times of WTC1, WTC2 or WTC7 that implies the faintest suspicion that explosives were involved.

Dave

[BenBurch]

Sorry!
Since I have "bad chief stooge" on ignore, I was responding to the quote you had from him, knowing that you hold the same view I do on this BS..

Mine apologies, BB...:o

No problem! :)

[Malmoesoldier]

In other words you believe everything Rev. Alex Jones preaches. You gave me typical conspiracy theories which have NO bases in fact. I'm supprised you didn't put Area 59 in there. Heh!

Alex jones has nothing to do with any of the FACTS i brought up. Besides he only talks about things he can prove, watch endgame.

I guess you dont even undestands what FBI did at waco? you cannot get more evidence then that, caught on tape.

anything other than what comes out of the propaganda media you deny.

As I say It is written Darwin on his deathbed said "I was right"

Since all the evidence show he and CIA was involved this is a smoking gun.

Cobwebs of incoherence.

You must live in a world of mystery.

I think you live in a world of mystery. the globalists talk about how they want to kill 80% of the population of the earth and how they have funded dictators and want to put up a fascist government. but people like you never read that so they laugh at you. try looking things up before you call it a "theory". Read tragedy and hope, writen by an insider to the elite. You can create your own reality where these documents and books by the elite dont exist if you are a weak minded person. either you know nothing about it or you know everything about it and stands for it but dont want to say it openly. people that supports a new world order is often fascists with weak minds that dont bother to look things up, its easier to say it isnt true and watch the news. people are being brainwashed to think it is okey to kill people just look at global warming what they want to do to africa based on lies.

The discussion seems to have moved on without anyone addressing this point, but someone should point out how completely out to lunch this assertion is. There's a series of studies by Frank Greening, much-loved on this forum as Apollo20, at http://www.911myths.com/html/other_contributions.html in which he carries out all these calculations and finds that the observed collapse times agree well with predictions including the conservation of momentum and the fracture energy of the support columns. I've carried out a similar calculation myself - it's simple enough to do on a spreadsheet - and found the same conclusion. I've even come across a truther site that does the same calculation, reaches the same conclusion then rejects its own conclusion and decides there must have been explosives used. Simple summary: there is nothing whatsoever in the collapse times of WTC1, WTC2 or WTC7 that implies the faintest suspicion that explosives were involved.

Dave

Contact NIST with your information. they dont know what happened to the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached. And the time of the collapses tells us nothing you say?, what would it take if it was controlled demolition 3 sec?. How many buildings have you seen come down like WTC7 because of fire?.

[Malmoesoldier]

You really have no clue do you? NFPA does not make laws genius. So what law did they break?

"a fire investigator may choose not to follow some recommendations if he or she decides that they are inappropriate or irrelevant to a particular case."

This does not apply to 9-11, they should have looked for thermite. the NIST investigation is a real serious one :boggled:

[DGM]

"a fire investigator may choose not to follow some recommendations if he or she decides that they are inappropriate or irrelevant to a particular case."

This does not apply to 9-11, they should have looked for thermite. the NIST investigation is a real serious one :boggled:
Why does it not apply? Did you miss the part when the huge airplanes hit the buildings (or buildings hitting others)?

If you see someone shot do you spend years looking for a knife?

[Max Photon]

"a fire investigator may choose not to follow some recommendations if he or she decides that they are inappropriate or irrelevant to a particular case."

This does not apply to 9-11, they should have looked for thermite. the NIST investigation is a real serious one :boggled:


Why does it not apply? Did you miss the part when the huge airplanes hit the buildings (or buildings hitting others)?

If you see someone shot do you spend years looking for a knife?


DGM,

It has not been established that the towers collapsed because of the jet impacts and fires.

All that has happened is that arguments have been made that the towers could have collapsed from the impacts and fires.

The point is - and I've made it a zillion times - supplementary catalysts - such as AP, or thermite - may have been used to migrate the towers in a sure manner from global stability to global instability.

You and others keep making the unwarranted assumption that the jets + fire did collapse the towers, and from this assumption, you claim there was no basis for checking for thermite or other catalysts.

Way to think inside the box.

Max

[DGM]

DGM,

It has not been established that the towers collapsed because of the jet impacts and fires.

All that has happened is that arguments have been made that the towers could have collapsed from the impacts and fires.

The point is - and I've made it a zillion times - supplementary catalysts - such as AP, or thermite - may have been used to migrate the towers in a sure manner from global stability to global instability.

You and others keep making the unwarranted assumption that the jets + fire did collapse the towers, and from this assumption, you claim there was no basis for checking for thermite or other catalysts.

Way to think inside the box.

Max
The "thermite" survived the jet impacts how? And why did we need a "catalyst" again? I don't remember your calculations that show it necessary.

I am disappointed however that no one looked for steel eating termites.

[Dave Rogers]

Contact NIST with your information. they dont know what happened to the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached. And the time of the collapses tells us nothing you say?, what would it take if it was controlled demolition 3 sec?. How many buildings have you seen come down like WTC7 because of fire?.

Pulling apart this rather incoherent mess into separate topics:

(1) NIST say they cannot provide a full explanation of the collapse - note that annoying modifier, "full". In other words, they can't say which bit of debris fell in which direction based on detailed modelling, because it's intractable. Their task, though, was to investigate the implications on building codes from what was known about the collapse, so they focused on collapse initiation and what would have prevented it. It's a delusion specific to 9-11 conspiracy theorists that once a building has started to collapse there's some point in trying to stop it.

(2) No, the time of collapse tells us nothing. Controlled demolitions don't actually come down at freefall speed either. What happens is that the structure fails at some point due to damage and progressive failure ensues; the details of the collapse are highly sensitive to the location of the failure and not at all sensitive to its cause, whether explosives or fire/impact damage. I have no idea what your 3 sec comment means, but if you're trying to use irony I'd recommend that you don't.

(3) The fundamental truth movement argument about WTC7 can be summed up as this:
No steel framed high-rise building has ever collapsed due to fire, and when they do they don't collapse the way WTC7 did.
If you need me to explain what's wrong with that, there's probably no point in me trying.

Dave

[tsig]

"a fire investigator may choose not to follow some recommendations if he or she decides that they are inappropriate or irrelevant to a particular case."

This does not apply to 9-11, they should have looked for thermite. the NIST investigation is a real serious one :boggled:

They should have looked for elven footprints but the elves will get away with it. Nobody expects the elves.

[tsig]

DGM,

It has not been established that the towers collapsed because of the jet impacts and fires.

All that has happened is that arguments have been made that the towers could have collapsed from the impacts and fires.

The point is - and I've made it a zillion times - supplementary catalysts - such as AP, or thermite - may have been used to migrate the towers in a sure manner from global stability to global instability.

You and others keep making the unwarranted assumption that the jets + fire did collapse the towers, and from this assumption, you claim there was no basis for checking for thermite or other catalysts.

Way to think inside the box.

Max

If you jump real hard and think light you may fly. Buy a plane ticket as a backup.

[DGM]

If you jump real hard and think light you may fly. Buy a plane ticket as a backup.
No, simply though yourself at the ground and miss.:D

[tsig]

No, simply though yourself at the ground and miss.:D

I hit it every time but hope springs eternal. My feet always touch the ground when I walk.

[Malmoesoldier]

DGM, It has not been established that the towers collapsed because of the jet impacts and fires.

Exactly max. But it will be hard to get conspiracy theorist like DGM to understand this. They already KNOW what happened, it was arabs from outer space with planes norad couldn't track and stop that had jet fuel that made 3000C fires. So the case i closed to much evidence already

[DGM]

Exactly max. But it will be hard to get conspiracy theorist like DGM to understand this. They already KNOW what happened, it was arabs from outer space with planes norad couldn't track and stop that had jet fuel that made 3000C fires. So the case i closed to much evidence already
Malmoe;

Please oh please give me a more plausible explanation. The "truth" movement has had 6 years and has failed miserably.

Maybe you can be their next shining star.

[tsig]

Exactly max. But it will be hard to get conspiracy theorist like DGM to understand this. They already KNOW what happened, it was arabs from outer space with planes norad couldn't track and stop that had jet fuel that made 3000C fires. So the case i closed to much evidence already

It's really a shame that the US is not omnipotent but that's life. Get used to it.

[Disbelief]

scientist and engineers from all over the world, you should let many scientist look at it not just a team picked by the government. I would accept it if they or NIST had evidence that fire+plane damge caused the collapse.


Why exactly would these scientists need to perform another investigation? Would they not be clamoring about the "inconsistencies" that the truthers see? Don't you think Hugo Chavez and Ahmedinejad would have all of their engineers working to prove the US government did it? Why are Venezuela and Iran silent as to the mechanics of the collapse?

[RedIbis]

Why exactly would these scientists need to perform another investigation? Would they not be clamoring about the "inconsistencies" that the truthers see? Don't you think Hugo Chavez and Ahmedinejad would have all of their engineers working to prove the US government did it? Why are Venezuela and Iran silent as to the mechanics of the collapse?

I'm a bit more concerned over the fact that NIST has been silent as to the mechanics of the collapse. I'm still waiting on that WTC 7 report.

[The Almond]

I'm a bit more concerned over the fact that NIST has been silent as to the mechanics of the collapse. I'm still waiting on that WTC 7 report.

Are you concerned that a body of legitimate scientists is not willing to speculate on the cause/mechanics of phenomena they have not studied? Speculation is the job of conspiracy theorists.

[Disbelief]

I'm a bit more concerned over the fact that NIST has been silent as to the mechanics of the collapse. I'm still waiting on that WTC 7 report.

Whoops, I meant collapse initiation, since most people know how difficult it would be to model the collapse in its entirety. Do you have more info you can shed on this Red? Have you devised a way to do this?

Many are waiting on the report for 7, though I still fail to see the significance of a building that the majority of people had never heard of until 9/11. Would you rather they get it right, or rush it out to appease you? Do you think the reports on 1 & 2 were more important and needed the manpower to investigate?

[beachnut]

I'm a bit more concerned over the fact that NIST has been silent as to the mechanics of the collapse. I'm still waiting on that WTC 7 report.
Sad you missed the mechanics of the collapse are clearly seen on video. Go ahead and impress us by writing an equation to explain what you saw, or failed to see. BTW, the videos show a collapse driven by gravity.

[tsig]

Alex jones has nothing to do with any of the FACTS i brought up. Besides he only talks about things he can prove, watch endgame.

I guess you dont even undestands what FBI did at waco? you cannot get more evidence then that, caught on tape.

anything other than what comes out of the propaganda media you deny.



Since all the evidence show he and CIA was involved this is a smoking gun.



I think you live in a world of mystery. the globalists talk about how they want to kill 80% of the population of the earth and how they have funded dictators and want to put up a fascist government. but people like you never read that so they laugh at you. try looking things up before you call it a "theory". Read tragedy and hope, writen by an insider to the elite. You can create your own reality where these documents and books by the elite dont exist if you are a weak minded person. either you know nothing about it or you know everything about it and stands for it but dont want to say it openly. people that supports a new world order is often fascists with weak minds that dont bother to look things up, its easier to say it isnt true and watch the news. people are being brainwashed to think it is okey to kill people just look at global warming what they want to do to africa based on lies.



Contact NIST with your information. they dont know what happened to the structural behavior of the tower after the conditions for collapse initiation were reached. And the time of the collapses tells us nothing you say?, what would it take if it was controlled demolition 3 sec?. How many buildings have you seen come down like WTC7 because of fire?.

Actually I do know everything about anything but your all-seeing eye must know this.

I do not do NIST me and gravity have this thing.

[tsig]

DGM,

It has not been established that the towers collapsed because of the jet impacts and fires.

All that has happened is that arguments have been made that the towers could have collapsed from the impacts and fires.

The point is - and I've made it a zillion times - supplementary catalysts - such as AP, or thermite - may have been used to migrate the towers in a sure manner from global stability to global instability.

You and others keep making the unwarranted assumption that the jets + fire did collapse the towers, and from this assumption, you claim there was no basis for checking for thermite or other catalysts.

Way to think inside the box.

Max

Yep the box is hell. See planes see fire, think maybe they are related to the buildings falling down.

[Max Photon]

I asked this question elsewhere, but it is also relevant here:

How did you 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesists rule-out that the collapse of the WTC towers was an inside job?


If a man goes to police to report his wife murdered, the main suspect is the man. And the man remains a suspect until he can be clearly ruled out.

Same with fire...the owners are automatically suspect.


Thus it is standard procedure to suspect an inside job - especially if there are suspicious circumstances or behaviors.


So...how did you guys RULE-OUT that 911 and the WTC collapse initiations were an inside job?

(This question is important, because any discussion about spoliation is heavily dependent on the assumption as to an inside or outside job.)


Max

[DGM]

I asked this question elsewhere, but it is also relevant here:

How did you 19-Hijacker Conspiracy Hypothesists rule-out that the collapse of the WTC towers was an inside job?


If a man goes to police to report his wife murdered, the main suspect is the man. And the man remains a suspect until he can be clearly ruled out.

Same with fire...the owners are automatically suspect.


Thus it is standard procedure to suspect an inside job - especially if there are suspicious circumstances or behaviors.


So...how did you guys RULE-OUT that 911 and the WTC collapse initiations were an inside job?

(This question is important, because any discussion about spoliation is heavily dependent on the assumption as to an inside or outside job.)


Max
Max;
As I said in the other thread. Total lack of any other credible explanation. You have to admit the "truthers" have presented zero. Your own theories (although fun) are totally unnecessary and impractical.

What was so hard about what the Islamic extremist did?

[Max Photon]

Yep the box is hell. See planes see fire, think maybe they are related to the buildings falling down.


See planes
see fire,
think maybe
they are related to
the buildings falling down.


TSIG,

Nice haiku.


Unfortunately...


Thinking maybe the planes and fire are related to the buildings falling down

is not the same thing as:

Knowing that the planes and the fires alone - with no planted catalysts - initiated the collapses.

[Malmoesoldier]

Yep the box is hell. See planes see fire, think maybe they are related to the buildings falling down.

You can create your own reality and ignore facts if you want. your buddy karl rove likes to create his own reality to.

'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' - karl rove

[Lennart Hyland]

You can create your own reality and ignore facts if you want. your buddy karl rove likes to create his own reality to.

'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' - karl rove

Wow you finally managed to quote someone and even mention his name :eek:

[beachnut]

You can create your own reality and ignore facts if you want. your buddy karl rove likes to create his own reality to.

'We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' - karl rove
It seems you and Rove are the same, making up your own reality. You are what you say other are. Too bad for you. And you have avoided the topic. Good job, you are them.

[Malmoesoldier]

It seems you and Rove are the same, making up your own reality. You are what you say other are. Too bad for you. And you have avoided the topic. Good job, you are them.

Sad you missed the mechanics of the collapse are clearly seen on video.

You can see the mechanics of the collapse on the video?. Talk about making up your own reality, yes it looks exactly like controlled demolition

http://www.kvi.nl/~theory/Robbie/homer_brain_small_2.jpg

[BenBurch]

I hit it every time but hope springs eternal. My feet always touch the ground when I walk.

I tried that the other week, and they carried me out of here on a backboard. I thought I had broken my hip. The good news is that nothing broke. The bad news is that I sprained both knees and most of one leg. OUCH.

[BenBurch]

It seems you and Rove are the same, making up your own reality. You are what you say other are. Too bad for you. And you have avoided the topic. Good job, you are them.

Except Rove seems to be better at it... (sadly)

[BenBurch]

You can see the mechanics of the collapse on the video?. Talk about making up your own reality, yes it looks exactly like controlled demolition

http://www.kvi.nl/~theory/Robbie/homer_brain_small_2.jpg

:i:

[GregoryUrich]

Malmoe posted alot of legitimate sources here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180) indicating that important steel evidence was destroyed before it could be examined. Does anyone have the integrity to acknowledge this?

[tsig]

I tried that the other week, and they carried me out of here on a backboard. I thought I had broken my hip. The good news is that nothing broke. The bad news is that I sprained both knees and most of one leg. OUCH.

And the rain in Spain is mostly in the pain. (crying)

[BenBurch]

Malmoe posted alot of legitimate sources here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180) indicating that important steel evidence was destroyed before it could be examined. Does anyone have the integrity to acknowledge this?

Nope. Because the steel evidence was wholly unimportant no matter what proof is presented.

[BenBurch]

And the rain in Spain is mostly in the pain. (crying)

I was crying too.

I am one big bruise!

[tsig]

Malmoe posted alot of legitimate sources here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180) indicating that important steel evidence was destroyed before it could be examined. Does anyone have the integrity to acknowledge this?

Yes I have the integrity. We do not need the steel we have videos.That's what your side has always said. Just look at it and you can tell.

Why do you want evidence now? You needed none to reach your conclusion and none will sway you.

[tsig]

I was crying too.

I am one big bruise!

Ouch!

[GregoryUrich]

Yes I have the integrity. We do not need the steel we have videos.That's what your side has always said. Just look at it and you can tell.

Why do you want evidence now? You needed none to reach your conclusion and none will sway you.

And my conslusion is?

[T.A.M.]

Your government funded hitler and put him into power.

They killed kennedy.

They have tested deadly pathogens, viruses, radiological and biological weapons on human populations (that has killed many people) without their knowledge in order to advance the progress of eugenics.

They have started wars based on lies, vietnam, iraq etc.

They are funding terrorist organisations like al-qaida.

They are killing people with the heroin/coke that they are dealing.

They killed kids at waco.

They was behind OKC.

There you have some examples.



in that test, at the 33 minute mark it was at 1100C and at the 41 minute mark it was 400C. All tests NIST have done is bs, they dont even use the results. they like to play with their computer instead of doing tests and experiments. NIST is a joke, time for an independent investigation. And they didnt look for thermite/thermate so they did break the law.

so much Woo goo, so little time...I'll assume others will tackle this bunk, but if not, I blame noone, as it is the same tired old crap.

And being Canadian (read below my Avatar), I think you misdirected your woo.

TAM:)

[GregoryUrich]

Nope. Because the steel evidence was wholly unimportant no matter what proof is presented.

This post has stundie written all over it.

[T.A.M.]

so besides Thermite, Malmoe, what other NEVER BEFORE USED IN DEMOLITION OF A BUILDING Methods should they have looked into???? How about Super Duper Rays From Outer Space?

Oh wait....lol

TAM:)

[DGM]

Malmoe posted alot of legitimate sources here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180) indicating that important steel evidence was destroyed before it could be examined. Does anyone have the integrity to acknowledge this?
Yet none of these sources were in agreement with what he was claiming. Right? Did any of them claim it was a criminal act? Yes they all had there different objections but still no inside job.

Do you think any of these sources support his conclusions?

[tsig]

And my conslusion is?

Gravity couldn't do it.

[Malmoesoldier]

Nope. Because the steel evidence was wholly unimportant no matter what proof is presented.

Clearly shows you have no interest in the truth. people like you are dangerous conspiracy theorist nuts, that probably will pick up a gun on the order from the government anytime, your future is a FEMA camp if you dont wake up to reality.

so besides Thermite, Malmoe, what other NEVER BEFORE USED IN DEMOLITION OF A BUILDING Methods should they have looked into???? How about Super Duper Rays From Outer Space?

Oh wait....lol

TAM:)

Why do we need to take the 9-11 investigation serious and pressure NIST so they take it serious? because america is corrupt with MAFIA war criminals, thats why. and you talk like it is proven what caused the collapse, it is not. So given the fact that mafias runs america and all that has happen after 9-11 and that the cause of the collapse is unknown at this time we need a real investigation.

And everything i brought up about how america has killed theri own people is true, proven with sources from the GOVERNMENT. almost all of those facts has even been in the media. you just fail to see the big picture because you only look into information that comes from the media. the news and your televison isnt GOD there are a world outside, there are libraries/government documents full of information you wont hear anything about in school or the media.

Yet none of these sources were in agreement with what he was claiming. Right? Did any of them claim it was a criminal act? Yes they all had there different objections but still no inside job.

Do you think any of these sources support his conclusions?

You clearly show that you need somebody from the government to tell you what is right and wrong, try thinking for yourself sometime?. you act like they are god, we the people are the government. and again what would happen if they wanted to cover up the evidence (the steel) exactly what happened would happen.. a space ship wouldnt land on ground zero and take the steel

[T.A.M.]

Why do we need to take the 9-11 investigation serious and pressure NIST so they take it serious? because america is corrupt with MAFIA war criminals, thats why. and you talk like it is proven what caused the collapse, it is not. So given the fact that mafias runs america and all that has happen after 9-11 and that the cause of the collapse is unknown at this time we need a real investigation.


It must really suck to live in a world that is so evil, so full of menace, and be helpless to do anything about it.

I am glad my world is not so gloomy or hopeless.

Good Luck

TAM:)

[Malmoesoldier]

It must really suck to live in a world that is so evil, so full of menace, and be helpless to do anything about it.

I am glad my world is not so gloomy or hopeless.

Good Luck

TAM:)

When you dont understand the elite and how evil they are and why, then the world is crasy and a mess. when you wake up to how evil the elite are and you understand what they are doing everything makes sense and it sets you free. to not have the knowledge whats going on in the world and why then you look at a gloomy crasy world from inside a box. my world is not hopeless, we have already won. god and love always win. i love humanity enough to die for theme to protect our freedoms, kids and people. the elite fear death and people waking up to their crimes, they are very weak minded persons, intelligent but without human feelings and a soul. Thats why many people choose to not look into things or say "that cant be true" when they hear things they havent heard on the news before because they dont want to know things that scares theme, they just want to make their food after work and watch television and go to sleep

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.

"The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance unfolds." -John F. Kennedy

"The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses." -Albert Einstein

[Max Photon]

Malmoe posted alot of legitimate sources here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180) indicating that important steel evidence was destroyed before it could be examined. Does anyone have the integrity to acknowledge this?


I think Malmoe has done a superb job, both in providing legitimate sources indicating spoliation, and in getting Ben and others to demonstrate their lack of integrity.


Ground Zero was a crime scene.
Steel was evidence.
Steel was destoyed.
Hence, evidence was destroyed.


The tap-dancing around this is pathetic.

[BenBurch]

What I really love is how every evil in the whole planet is the result of some grand conspiracy to these knuckleheads. Every single one. If they are overdrawn at the bank, its the Jewish Banker's fault. If they cannot get a third mortgage, that's the fault of the Fed. If they slack off and lose their job, that's the boss' fault.

And you know, some things ARE the result of wealthy and powerful men treating us like playthings; That is what the usual war amounts to on BOTH sides. Seems to me we'd all be better-off if the people who believe it is all rigged against them would focus on just one thing that is real; War is seldom justified unless you are attacked. And if you are attacked, the right way to deal with it is to go to the UN.

Whoa.

Do I sound like I am in favor of a New World Order in which national governments are no longer able to wage war at will.

Yep.

You betcha.

In a heartbeat.

Because our technology demands that we change.

IkWAhuXtalw

LBJ was right. "We must love one another or die"

The rest of this malarky is less useful than day old crap.

[T.A.M.]

When you dont understand the elite and how evil they are and why, then the world is crasy and a mess. when you wake up to how evil the elite are and you understand what they are doing everything makes sense and it sets you free. to not have the knowledge whats going on in the world and why then you look at a gloomy crasy world from inside a box. my world is not hopeless, we have already won. god and love always win. i love humanity enough to die for theme to protect our freedoms, kids and people. the elite fear death and people waking up to their crimes, they are very weak minded persons, intelligent but without human feelings and a soul. Thats why many people choose to not look into things or say "that cant be true" when they hear things they havent heard on the news before because they dont want to know things that scares theme, they just want to make their food after work and watch television and go to sleep

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.

"The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance unfolds." -John F. Kennedy

"The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses." -Albert Einstein

Ok, I can see logic and common sense are out the door with you, so swallow another pill, crawl back down the rabbit hole, and enjoy...

I think Malmoe has done a superb job, both in providing legitimate sources indicating spoliation, and in getting Ben and others to demonstrate their lack of integrity.


Ground Zero was a crime scene.
Steel was evidence.
Steel was destoyed.
Hence, evidence was destroyed.


The tap-dancing around this is pathetic.

GZ was a crime scene - correct.
Steel was potential evidence - are you an expert on what they should have considered evidence? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.
Steel was removed.

I will ask the question which you truthers seem to be TAP DANCING PATHETICALLY AROUND!!!

Was the steel and other materials at ground zero removed without permission from the FORENSIC INVESTIGATORS, or PRIOR TO THE COMPLETION OF THE FORENSIC INVESTIGATION??????

TAM:)

[funk de fino]

Malmoe posted alot of legitimate sources here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180) indicating that important steel evidence was destroyed before it could be examined. Does anyone have the integrity to acknowledge this?

He tried to claim this meant the vast majority of the steel was destroyed before anyone could look at it. Those quotes do not back that claim up.

All it says is that some of the steel was initially destroyed. The rest of the steel from the towers was investigated at various locations. He debunked his own claims with the very quotes he put up. He flip flops between the WTC7 and the towers and made numerous false claims that have been pointed out to him. Do you want to take his back on those claims as well?

[funk de fino]

When you dont understand the elite and how evil they are and why, then the world is crasy and a mess. when you wake up to how evil the elite are and you understand what they are doing everything makes sense and it sets you free. to not have the knowledge whats going on in the world and why then you look at a gloomy crasy world from inside a box. my world is not hopeless, we have already won. god and love always win. i love humanity enough to die for theme to protect our freedoms, kids and people. the elite fear death and people waking up to their crimes, they are very weak minded persons, intelligent but without human feelings and a soul. Thats why many people choose to not look into things or say "that cant be true" when they hear things they havent heard on the news before because they dont want to know things that scares theme, they just want to make their food after work and watch television and go to sleep

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music.

"The greater our knowledge increases the more our ignorance unfolds." -John F. Kennedy

"The ruling class has the schools and press under its thumb. This enables it to sway the emotions of the masses." -Albert Einstein

Thats just crazy talk, you need serious help.

You claim you would die for the cause yet all you do is post crap and false claims on a message board? You have soldier in your user name? I call you coward.

Get a grip man, you only get one life on this planet and you are wasting it big time

[GregoryUrich]

Gravity couldn't do it.

No, that hasn't been shown convicingly.

[GregoryUrich]

What I really love is how every evil in the whole planet is the result of some grand conspiracy to these knuckleheads. Every single one. If they are overdrawn at the bank, its the Jewish Banker's fault. If they cannot get a third mortgage, that's the fault of the Fed. If they slack off and lose their job, that's the boss' fault.

And you know, some things ARE the result of wealthy and powerful men treating us like playthings; That is what the usual war amounts to on BOTH sides. Seems to me we'd all be better-off if the people who believe it is all rigged against them would focus on just one thing that is real; War is seldom justified unless you are attacked. And if you are attacked, the right way to deal with it is to go to the UN.

Whoa.

Do I sound like I am in favor of a New World Order in which national governments are no longer able to wage war at will.

Yep.

You betcha.

In a heartbeat.

Because our technology demands that we change.

IkWAhuXtalw

LBJ was right. "We must love one another or die"

The rest of this malarky is less useful than day old crap.

No slacking here Jack. I have been employed since college. I have never been fired. On the contrary, I have only received promotions. I continue to have a successful IT consulting career. Not that it is particularly important to me, but I live in a $700,000 house with a small mortgage and drive a BMW 520. I am trading the Beamer in for a hybrid because I am environmentally conscious. I don't blame the boss. Leadership is difficult, which I know because I am usually the boss on my projects. I don't hate the government and I usually vote.

Either your not talking about me or you need to examine your predjudices.

Ask questions, demand answers!

[GregoryUrich]

He tried to claim this meant the vast majority of the steel was destroyed before anyone could look at it. Those quotes do not back that claim up.

All it says is that some of the steel was initially destroyed. The rest of the steel from the towers was investigated at various locations. He debunked his own claims with the very quotes he put up. He flip flops between the WTC7 and the towers and made numerous false claims that have been pointed out to him. Do you want to take his back on those claims as well?

Much of the important steel was on the top of the WTC 1 and 2 piles and that was the first steel to be recycled without being examined. I see that as a serious problem for the investigation.

It seems the most common approach to dissenting opinions here is to try and discredit and ridicule the person rather than address the issues in a constructive way. No one is always correct.

I haven't read every one of Malmoe's claims so I don't know which are false. If his claims are truly proven false he should own up to that. On the other hand, I see people ignoring valid evidence and not acknowledging that much of what Malmoe is saying is correct.

[tomwaits]

And my conslusion is?

The government did it! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEFn6eSMnTs)

[chillzero]

Malmoe, there are a few other threads to discuss the ideas that the world is run by an elite NWO organisation.

Please keep this thread to topic, as others are trying to keep it.

[GregoryUrich]

The government did it! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEFn6eSMnTs)

Tom, have you read anything I have written?

To keep this on topic, my conclusions are as follows:


Important evidence (i.e. steel) was destroyed before forensic investigation took place.
NIST's the theory regarding fireproofing being knocked off on the south side of WTC1 is not scientifcally (even theoretically) supported.
NIST improperly used the most severe case rather than looking at their model to see why observed parameters didn't cause the expected result.
NIST made too many mistakes rendering their explanation of the cause of collapse unconvincing.

[DGM]

You clearly show that you need somebody from the government to tell you what is right and wrong, try thinking for yourself sometime?. you act like they are god, we the people are the government. and again what would happen if they wanted to cover up the evidence (the steel) exactly what happened would happen.. a space ship wouldnt land on ground zero and take the steel

This is funny coming from someone that has not expressed a single original thought. How dare you parrot the "truth" movement and say I can't think for myself. Why don't you try to think for yourself? So far all you've showed us is you can repeat the thoughts of Alex Jones.

BTW Have you found the knife from the gun murder?

[funk de fino]

Much of the important steel was on the top of the WTC 1 and 2 piles and that was the first steel to be recycled without being examined. I see that as a serious problem for the investigation.

On top? From the impact and fire zones? Would there not have been other steel on top of that?

How much of this was destroyed before it was investigated? No-one is saying some of this was not destroyed, it was the claim of Malmoe that most of the steel was destroyed I was arguing with. He is trying to caim 80% figures and the like.

They had to move the steel rather rapidly for the S&R mission did they not?

It seems the most common approach to dissenting opinions here is to try and discredit and ridicule the person rather than address the issues in a constructive way. No one is always correct.

A lot of his claims deserve ridicule.

I haven't read every one of Malmoe's claims so I don't know which are false. If his claims are truly proven false he should own up to that. On the other hand, I see people ignoring valid evidence and not acknowledging that much of what Malmoe is saying is correct.

Maybe you should, you may not be so quick to back him up. I have acknowledge that some of the steel was destroyed but not in the quantities he is claiming and not as fast as he is claiming. His claims are backed by a great many cherry picked quotes that sometimes even contradict his own claims.

[funk de fino]

Tom, have you read anything I have written?

To keep this on topic, my conclusions are as follows:


Important evidence (i.e. steel) was destroyed before forensic investigation took place.
NIST's the theory regarding fireproofing being knocked off on the south side of WTC1 is not scientifcally (even theoretically) supported.
NIST improperly used the most severe case rather than looking at their model to see why observed parameters didn't cause the expected result.
NIST made too many mistakes rendering their explanation of the cause of collapse unconvincing.


1. Prove it was the important steel that was destroyed
2. Rubbish. Where are the pictures of the fireproofing on the steel we see in all the photos from GZ? Was it knocked off? When was this knocked off?
3. Oh really, I suspect you have claimed this before and shown to be incorrect
4. Everyone is infallible eh? What about the larger mistakes of the truthers experts or even their barefaced lies

[Malmoesoldier]

Do I sound like I am in favor of a New World Order in which national governments are no longer able to wage war at will.

Yep.

You betcha.

In a heartbeat.

Because our technology demands that we change.

You do realise that killing 80% of the population of the earth and tagging every human being with an RFID chipp is in the plan of the new world order? you think thats a good ide to?. And dont give me any BS about you believe anything alex says, they write about it openly, so dont make a fool of yourself answering in an ignorant way.

Thats just crazy talk, you need serious help.

all you do is post crap and false claims on a message board?

They had to move the steel rather rapidly for the S&R mission did they not?

Prove it was the important steel that was destroyed

False claims?. everything i say is proven with sources from the government. you know you havent looked anything up and yet you claim it is false.

Again the S&R mission is no excuse, i know you dont understand that. they didnt have any place to store the steel?.

I did prove that it was important steel that got destroyed if you read my quotes here http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180 people was complaining that they didnt get any of the important steel to look at. why do you ignore facts?

Where is the reports of what other steel got investigated? there are none, because none got investigated, NIST would have the results if anything got investigated. Corley's ASCE volunteers only got 156 pieces of steel, most of them small "coupons" cut from larger pieces NIST received 41 pieces from thoes pieces.

Did any of them claim it was a criminal act?

Dr. CORLEY. As far as the team is concerned, we made it known that we needed steel. And I don't have any knowledge that anyone had the authority even to ask them to cease and desist.

Mr. CROWLEY. So no one even asked them politely to stop selling what, in all likelihood, could be evidence? (....)

But I do believe that conspiracy theorists are going to have a field day with this. They are going to make the Warren Commission look like a walk in the park. And that is unfortunate not only for the Members of Congress who are trying to work on this issue, but for all the families out there that are listening very carefully to what we are talking about today, what these experts are saying. And I just think there is so much that has been lost in these last six months that we can never go back and retrieve. And that is not only unfortunate, it is borderline criminal.

Chairman BOEHLERT. Yeah.

[DGM]

Malmoe:
You do realize that killing 80% of the population of the earth and tagging every human being with an RFID chipp is in the plan of the new world order? you think thats a good ide to?. And dont give me any BS about you believe anything alex says, they write about it openly, so dont make a fool of yourself answering in an ignorant way.

The point you fail to realize is I'm in no danger. It's you that needs to worry. I'm one of them and we have YOUR number.

[Malmoesoldier]

Malmoe:


The point you fail to realize is I'm in no danger. It's you that needs to worry. I'm one of them and we have YOUR number.

http://www.tanjalawhead.com/portfolio/noo.jpg

http://webserver.mcl.org/images/help.jpg

[DGM]

http://www.tanjalawhead.com/portfolio/noo.jpg

http://webserver.mcl.org/images/help.jpg
Asking for help is a start. Please continue this quest.

[Malmoesoldier]

Asking for help is a start. Please continue this quest.

To stop ignoring facts and going to a library and learning how the world works would be a start for you.

[DGM]

To stop ignoring facts and going to a library and learning how the world works would be a start for you.
That's OK. 30 years in the construction industry and my connections to the NWO will serve me well. I plan to build the FEMA camps. Google "FEMA death camp" my name comes up.

[Malmoesoldier]

That's OK. 30 years in the construction industry and my connections to the NWO will serve me well. I plan to build the FEMA camps. Google "FEMA death camp" my name comes up.

http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/concentration_camps_congress_knowledge.jpg

You mean one of those. yes there is over 800 camps right now staffed and manned by full-time guards, and they are all empty at the moment.

[DGM]

http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/concentration_camps_congress_knowledge.jpg

You mean one of those. yes there is over 800 camps right now staffed and manned by full-time guards, and they are all empty at the moment.

You think so don't you? Good the PR is working.

We plan to build more overseas too. See you there.

[DavidJames]

To stop ignoring facts and going to a library and learning how the world works would be a start for you.By definition, one cannot ignore facts which have not been presented. In this case, you've presented no facts to support an "inside job". What you've presented is:

Innuendo
Conjecture
Rumor
Allegations
Self perceived anomalies

Should, at some point, you present any evidence to support an "inside job", I'm sure it will be reviewed and discussed. Until then your arguments are hollow and without substance. The fact that you've employed this tactic across multiple conspiracy theories suggests you lack basic critical thinking skills. Good luck in life, it must be a struggle for you. I wish you well.

[Dave Rogers]

yes there is over 800 camps right now staffed and manned by full-time guards, and they are all empty at the moment.

Then you will of course be happy to post the information you obtained from the above enquiry and demonstrate how it proves that this is the case rather than, for example, that the US Army is providing some facilities for the incarceration and forced labour of criminals convicted by the due process of civilian law.

Dave

[Malmoesoldier]

Then you will of course be happy to post the information you obtained from the above enquiry and demonstrate how it proves that this is the case rather than, for example, that the US Army is providing some facilities for the incarceration and forced labour of criminals convicted by the due process of civilian law.

Dave

"These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) when Martial Law is implemented in the United States (at the stroke of a Presidential pen and the Attorney General's signature on a warrant). They are for people who disagree with the government.

Photographers snapped pictures of an Intend To Operate In Similar Fissions To WWII Camps: estimated half a million plastic coffins:
http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/500-thousand-coffin-liners.jpg
http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/Coffine-liners-close-up.jpg

These plans are similar in many ways to Hitler and Stalin's plans who all have generally the same financial backers.

Manuscripts proving Prescott Bush's Nazi ties can be found in the National Archives and the Library of Congress documenting the business relationship between W. Averell Harriman, George Herbert Walker, and Prescott Bush, who served as U.S. partners of, and private bankers for, Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the financial architect of The Third Reich.

Clearly Presidential Executive Orders primarily from FDR and Bush Jr., which are blatantly treasonous in form, have been laying the groundwork for this Fascist Socialist takeover": http://www.libertyforlife.com/eye-openers/new_void_executive_orders.htm

[Dave Rogers]

"These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) when Martial Law is implemented in the United States (at the stroke of a Presidential pen and the Attorney General's signature on a warrant). They are for people who disagree with the government.

Can you show us a scan of where the document you received from your request actually says that? If you've received an official document that says that FEMA is setting up internment camps for people who disagree with the government, that might interest a few people here.

Photographers snapped pictures of an Intend To Operate In Similar Fissions To WWII Camps: estimated half a million plastic coffins:
http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/500-thousand-coffin-liners.jpg
http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/Coffine-liners-close-up.jpg


I thought I asked you to show us the official document you'd received. For some reason I must have mistyped it as "Please post some pictures of lots of plastic boxes from a woo website with some hysterical labelling". I must be more careful what I type in future.

"These plans are similar in many ways to Hitler and Stalin's plans who all have generally the same financial backers.

Manuscripts proving Prescott Bush's Nazi ties can be found in the National Archives and the Library of Congress documenting the business relationship between W. Averell Harriman, George Herbert Walker, and Prescott Bush, who served as U.S. partners of, and private bankers for, Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the financial architect of The Third Reich.

Prescott Bush? Prescott Bush??? You really can't stay on topic for long, can you?

"Clearly Presidential Executive Orders primarily from FDR and Bush Jr., which are blatantly treasonous in form, have been laying the groundwork for this Fascist Socialist takeover": http://www.libertyforlife.com/eye-openers/new_void_executive_orders.htm

That well-known association between Prescott Bush's grandson and FDR, who loved Nazi Germany so much that he allegedly sacrificed the US Pacific Fleet in order to fight a war against it? I think you need to get your conspiracies straight.

Dave

[funk de fino]

"These camps are to be operated by FEMA (Federal Emergency Management Agency) when Martial Law is implemented in the United States (at the stroke of a Presidential pen and the Attorney General's signature on a warrant). They are for people who disagree with the government.

Eh. where does it say that? Most people speak out about the government of their country and I have yet to see anyone dissappear. You post stuff and you do not even understand what it says.

Photographers snapped pictures of an Intend To Operate In Similar Fissions To WWII Camps: estimated half a million plastic coffins:
http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/500-thousand-coffin-liners.jpg
http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/Coffine-liners-close-up.jpg

These plans are similar in many ways to Hitler and Stalin's plans who all have generally the same financial backers.

You read and believe any old crap as long as it fits your demented paranoid fantasy world.

Manuscripts proving Prescott Bush's Nazi ties can be found in the National Archives and the Library of Congress documenting the business relationship between W. Averell Harriman, George Herbert Walker, and Prescott Bush, who served as U.S. partners of, and private bankers for, Nazi industrialist Fritz Thyssen, the financial architect of The Third Reich.

I dont live in america and neither do you, who gives a monkeys what happens. If you care get out of your closet and fight the fight instead of being a cowardly keyboard warrior. you have no balls.

Clearly Presidential Executive Orders primarily from FDR and Bush Jr., which are blatantly treasonous in form, have been laying the groundwork for this Fascist Socialist takeover": http://www.libertyforlife.com/eye-openers/new_void_executive_orders.htm

Fascist Socialist? Too funny. That liberty life site is full of junk and you are too stupid to see it.

[chillzero]

Please stop this and get back to a level of civility, and keep the thread on topic. If this is not achieved, the thread will be made moderated.

[funk de fino]

False claims?. everything i say is proven with sources from the government. you know you havent looked anything up and yet you claim it is false.

1. McPadden claim - false - Not proven by govt sources
2. Jennings claim - false - Not proven by govt sources
3. Explosions in WTC7 before the planes hit the towers - false - Not proven by govt sources
4. FEMA camps for people who disagree with the govt - False - Not proven by govt sources
5. Chips in all citizens of the world - false - Not proven by govt sources
6. Killing 80% of the world population - false - not proven by govt sources

Again the S&R mission is no excuse, i know you dont understand that. they didnt have any place to store the steel?.

Yes, scrapyards, unfortunately a very small part of the steel was destroyed before it could be looked at. The rest was investigated at the scrapyards and the other storage facilities, your own quotes prove this.

I did prove that it was important steel that got destroyed if you read my quotes here http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3206180#post3206180 people was complaining that they didnt get any of the important steel to look at. why do you ignore facts?

Why dont you post some that are true

Where is the reports of what other steel got investigated? there are none, because none got investigated, NIST would have the results if anything got investigated. Corley's ASCE volunteers only got 156 pieces of steel, most of them small "coupons" cut from larger pieces NIST received 41 pieces from thoes pieces.

Why should the FBI give you reports? Just because someone only uses some parts of the steel does not mean that they had no access to the rest.

[BenBurch]

http://www.libertyforlife.com/images/concentration_camps_congress_knowledge.jpg

You mean one of those. yes there is over 800 camps right now staffed and manned by full-time guards, and they are all empty at the moment.

:bs:

You have one insane member of congress (I can name others) from a decade ago discussing programs by name only... No indication as to their size or intent. And you suddenly have 800 camps with a permanent guard staff?

Wow. You need some real help, son.

[Malmoesoldier]

That well-known association between Prescott Bush's grandson and FDR, who loved Nazi Germany so much that he allegedly sacrificed the US Pacific Fleet in order to fight a war against it? I think you need to get your conspiracies straight.

Dave

Maybe they attacked hitler because he turned his back on theme? READ SOME HISTORY PLEASE. they just used him to do some dirty work.

Can you show us a scan of where the document you received from your request actually says that? If you've received an official document that says that FEMA is setting up internment camps for people who disagree with the government

I know it is hard to figure things out when you dont know anything about history and cant connect the dots. The FEMA camps if for Martial Law.

:bs:

You have one insane member of congress (I can name others) from a decade ago discussing programs by name only... No indication as to their size or intent. And you suddenly have 800 camps with a permanent guard staff?

Wow. You need some real help, son.

Read about locations here fool: http://www.libertyforlife.com/jail-police/us-concentration_camp-locations.htm

Instead of posting stupid ignorant things, look my claims up. so we dont need to change the topic all the time.

[BenBurch]

Yep, How many of those locations have you visited? A friend went and looked for a FEMA camp once when it was on his route anyway, and he found a railroad's back shops.

[DGM]

Yep, How many of those locations have you visited? A friend went and looked for a FEMA camp once when it was on his route anyway, and he found a railroad's back shops.
I did help build one (really). At least that's what they said it was.
In reality it was an apartment complex that was built on an old NIKE missile site.

[Malmoesoldier]

1. McPadden claim - false - Not proven by govt sources
2. Jennings claim - false - Not proven by govt sources
3. Explosions in WTC7 before the planes hit the towers - false - Not proven by govt sources
4. FEMA camps for people who disagree with the govt - False - Not proven by govt sources
5. Chips in all citizens of the world - false - Not proven by govt sources
6. Killing 80% of the world population - false - not proven by govt sources



Yes, scrapyards, unfortunately a very small part of the steel was destroyed before it could be looked at. The rest was investigated at the scrapyards and the other storage facilities, your own quotes prove this.



Why dont you post some that are true



Why should the FBI give you reports? Just because someone only uses some parts of the steel does not mean that they had no access to the rest.

1. McPadden is not debunked.
2. Jennings is not debunked.
3. I told you i did remember it wrong, and that the story was that he heard theme before the towers collapsed.
4. It is for martial law, if you know what that is.
5. It is proven with government sources that they want the people to have an RFID chipp, why do you LIE and claim things that is proven to not be true?. it has been in the news many times?
6. 100% true proven with government sourches read the NSSM 200 documents then find out who planned parenthood and people like Dr. Eric R. Pianka are.

No nothing was investigated my quotes PROVES that the important steel was destroyed quick as they complained about, again why do you IGNORE FACTS??. you are very good at ignoring facts. And NIST who are the ones doing the investigation into what caused the collapse only got 236 pieces from WTC1-2 and 0 from WTC7, and they didnt look for thermite or anything, so if explosives where used they obviously couldnt find it.

[BenBurch]

I did help build one (really). At least that's what they said it was.
In reality it was an apartment complex that was built on an old NIKE missile site.

Yes, FEMA emergency housing... I think we saw how inadequate it was in quantity when Katrina happened, didn't we?

[BenBurch]

Malemute, McPadden came here and admitted to everything. I am the one who dug out the evidence that forced him to acknowledge his service history.

[DGM]

Yes, FEMA emergency housing... I think we saw how inadequate it was in quantity when Katrina happened, didn't we?
FEMA would love to put people up there. All high end condos and high rent corporate apartments.

[Vincent Vega]

FEMA "Trailers of terror"?

http://media.2theadvocate.com/images/empty+trailers+fema+071606.jpg

Are those propane tanks...or something more insidious?

[Gravy]

You do realise that killing 80% of the population of the earth and tagging every human being with an RFID chipp is in the plan of the new world order? you think thats a good ide to?. And dont give me any BS about you believe anything alex says, they write about it openly, so dont make a fool of yourself answering in an ignorant way.

1) Please direct me to where the "New World Order" writes openly about these plans.

2) Please explain who will be killed, and why.

3) Stundied!

[BenBurch]

VV, the insidious part is what we all had to PAY for each and every one of those leaking things.

[chipmunk stew]

1) Please direct me to where the "New World Order" writes openly about these plans.
In Georgia! Chiseled into stone! No, really! (http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm)

[BenBurch]

Actually, it is worse than that, Gravy; 100% of all people on Earth are going to die!

http://www.quizlaw.com.nyud.net/blog/images/open-grave.jpg

[funk de fino]

1. McPadden is not debunked.
2. Jennings is not debunked.
3. I told you i did remember it wrong, and that the story was that he heard theme before the towers collapsed.
4. It is for martial law, if you know what that is.
5. It is proven with government sources that they want the people to have an RFID chipp, why do you LIE and claim things that is proven to not be true?. it has been in the news many times?
6. 100% true proven with government sourches read the NSSM 200 documents then find out who planned parenthood and people like Dr. Eric R. Pianka are.

No nothing was investigated my quotes PROVES that the important steel was destroyed quick as they complained about, again why do you IGNORE FACTS??. you are very good at ignoring facts. And NIST who are the ones doing the investigation into what caused the collapse only got 236 pieces from WTC1-2 and 0 from WTC7, and they didnt look for thermite or anything, so if explosives where used they obviously couldnt find it.

1. yes he is.
2. His contradictions have been exposed, you do not even know what time he was taken from the building
3. yes, badly wrong. maybe you should look at all the other wrong stuff you have posted
4. yes i know what it is but we do not have it. Thye will not kill you for disagreeing with the govt or you would be dead. in fact so would I
5. show me a source from any govt which says they want chips in every person on earth like you have claimed
6. show me a source that any govt wants to kill 80% of the world population

They only got or they only chose? Look it up.

[Belz...]

You do realise that killing 80% of the population of the earth and tagging every human being with an RFID chipp is in the plan of the new world order? you think thats a good ide to?. And dont give me any BS about you believe anything alex says, they write about it openly, so dont make a fool of yourself answering in an ignorant way.

Evidence, please.

Evidence that you're not making things up, that is.

[chillzero]

Topic split:
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100381

Please do not ignore mod warnings, or thread will be moderated.

[Malmoesoldier]

1) Please direct me to where the "New World Order" writes openly about these plans.

2) Please explain who will be killed, and why.

3) Stundied!

I awnsered your questions here: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=100381

[Hellbound]

Hey, Malmeo,

Did you actually look at the army regulation referenced by your "cover letter"?

I did.

It's available, in full, at the Army's Directorate of publishing, and it does NOT say what you think it says.

It's AR 210-35 which can be found here in a PDF format (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r210_35.pdf).

Speaking of thinking for oneself, it would be nice if you'd research things, instead of taking your "truth" websites at their word.

[Malmoesoldier]

Hey, Malmeo,

Did you actually look at the army regulation referenced by your "cover letter"?

I did.

It's available, in full, at the Army's Directorate of publishing, and it does NOT say what you think it says.

It's AR 210-35 which can be found here in a PDF format (http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r210_35.pdf).

Speaking of thinking for oneself, it would be nice if you'd research things, instead of taking your "truth" websites at their word.

Hey ignorant person number 999.

The contract provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the United States,or to support the rapid development of new programs".

http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/corpnws_012606.pdf

http://www.libertyforlife.com/law/posse_comitatus_destroyed.htm

[Hellbound]

What does a Haliburton contract have to do with AR 210-35?

Your answer tells me I was correct, you have NOT read the regulation, and don't understand what it is talking about.

Thanks for confirming that.

[funk de fino]

Hey ignorant person number 999.

He calls you out on another false claim then you follow with an unrelated link after namecalling him? Well done.

http://www.halliburton.com/default/main/halliburton/eng/news/source_files/press_release/2006/corpnws_012606.pdf

http://www.libertyforlife.com/law/posse_comitatus_destroyed.htm

Your site says this

Incarceration Rate Booming:


the other site says this

After sharp increases in the 1980s and 1990s, the incarceration rate has recently grown at a slower pace.


Misleading again eh?


Back to the steel now please.

[Malmoesoldier]

What does a Haliburton contract have to do with AR 210-35?

Your answer tells me I was correct, you have NOT read the regulation, and don't understand what it is talking about.

Thanks for confirming that.

I showed you it because i believe you think their camps is only for immigrants? it is obvious that they are for martial law.

He calls you out on another false claim then you follow with an unrelated link after namecalling him? Well done.



Your site says this



the other site says this



Misleading again eh?


Back to the steel now please.

Was that a joke i didnt get? it doesnt say "Incarceration Rate Booming" on any of the sites i posted.

And i have already showed you the sources about the steel. i know you dont think it is suspicious that they destroyed the evidence from the crime scene. every one has the right to have an opinion and every one has the right to be smart or stupid.

[funk de fino]

I showed you it because i believe you think their camps is only for immigrants? it is obvious that they are for martial law.

Just admit to Huntsman you got it wrong again, it will not hurt



Was that a joke i didnt get? it doesnt say "Incarceration Rate Booming" on any of the sites i posted.

And i have already showed you the sources about the steel. i know you dont think it is suspicious that they destroyed the evidence from the crime scene. every one has the right to have an opinion and every one has the right to be smart or stupid.

I followed the links on the site you posted because you have accused me of not reading things and I see the sites you post claim the same kind of junk claims you do. That site a is a joke and full of junk and you do not see it. What a shame.

[DGM]

Malmoe:
You never retracted you statement that NIST broke the law. Why is that?
Do you still think they did? If so what law would that be.

[Malmoesoldier]

Malmoe:
You never retracted you statement that NIST broke the law. Why is that?
Do you still think they did? If so what law would that be.

You said they didnt make the law, they are the LAW, you follow their codes. and to not look at thermite didnt apply to 9-11 as max and i pointed out some pages back. Do you still think NIST has proven the cause of the collapse?. lol

[DGM]

You said they didnt make the law, they are the LAW, you follow their codes. and to not look at thermite didnt apply to 9-11 as max and i pointed out some pages back. Do you still think NIST has proven the cause of the collapse?. lol
So you have no intention of backing up your claim?

Stop trying to avoid the question.

WHAT LAW DID THEY BREAK!

[Malmoesoldier]

So you have no intention of backing up your claim?

Stop trying to avoid the question.

WHAT LAW DID THEY BREAK!

Why do you ask the same question over and over again?. i will give you the same awsner. they didnt follow the code that says you should look for thermite.

[Hellbound]

I showed you it because i believe you think their camps is only for immigrants? it is obvious that they are for martial law.

I made no statemetn about those camps, only about your interpretation of AR 210-35.

Now, let's assume that you are correct, and those camps are for martial law. You realize that this means those camps are not covered by AR 210-35, right? I mean, you have read the AR, and understand what it says, yes?

[DGM]

Why do you ask the same question over and over again?. i will give you the same awsner. they didnt follow the code that says you should look for thermite.
It's not breaking the law and it is not a code. Besides it said at their discretion.
Do you always look for thermate at plane crashes?

So do you plan to retract your BS statement?

[BenBurch]

The code does not say to look for Thermite in a plane wreck. That would be beyond stupid.

It would be like observing that your teenage daughter was pregnant, and asking God why he chose you to be the grandparent of The Second Coming... ;)

[DGM]

Malmoe:
Still can't find the law that you said NIST broke?

Don't quote NFPA as a government source again please it just shows your lack of research skills. NFPA is a non-profit members group that promotes fire safety. You can check for yourself.
http://www.nfpa.org/categoryList.asp?categoryID=143&URL=About%20Us

So are you ready to be a man and retract that ridiculous statement?