Sirius Alignment During Calendar Reform

[Derek]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new here, and have pondered on where to put this very long thread, after a lot of thought i have descided to head it under conspiracies, although i'm not sure my research should be in this category.

I have interests in archaeoastronomy, and the use of astrology by religion going back to Egyptian times, but i must strongly add that this thread isnt trying to prove astrology works, but rather to show how the beliefs of astrology has been used leading up to the present day.

Astrology started with an ancient king grapping hold of the court mystics and asking when would be the best time to wage war on his neighbour, which is called electional astrology meaning waiting for planetary alignments to co-incide with the preferred actions.

Recently i gave a research paper into the Warburg Institute for study and the first part of this thread is involved with the Egyptian, Julian and Gregorian calendars.

Later i will have to explain many of the perculiar rules of astrology, but as the Egyptian Thoth Calendar dealt with visible astrology, which has the same rules as astronomy, i can leave that till later.

The beliefs of ancient Egyptians was bound up in their calendar, they thought that "Isis was the star Sirius, and "Osiris was the stars in the Orion".
They celebrated new year when Sirius rose just before the Sun, being the heliacal rising star.
As the procession of the stars appear to move slowly in relation to the Earth, it has long been the practice of electional astrologers to align stars to the point of rising or the mid-heaven in keeping with their beliefs.

The Julian Calendar, background material.

There is no doubt that Cleopatra was involved in a great deal of political intrigue during her watch as the last ruler in a dynasty founded by Ptolemy
1st.
In fact in trying to put her son on the throne of the emperors of Rome, she played a very dangerous game, as she developed relationships with Julius Caesar as well as Mark Antony, two of the greatest Roman leaders of the era, plus had children by both of them.

Cleopatra gave birth to a son called Caesarion, who she claimed was Caesar's, assassinated in 0044 BC, and obviously one of the reasons that this happened was the threat of the child's claim on the throne of Rome.
The Senate hated Cleopatra, which didnt help Caesar's situation, for when she visited Rome, it is reported she said "this is your son, where is my palace?"
There were many other reasons why Caesar was assassinated, his child with Cleopatra was just one of them.

Mark Antony invited Cleopatra to Tarsus in 0041BC, in an effort to get some sort of aid from her in his quest to be sole ruler of Rome, and again she worked her magic, as she gave birth to his twins!
Antony lost the major battle of Actim, and committed suicide, and it is reported that Cleopatra did the same by intentionally being bitten by a snake, although it is dubious if she did commit suicide, she was probably slain by Octavian, some days later he caught Caesarion, and murdered him as well.

We can only wonder what political intrigue was developing at the time, in trying to fuse the might of Rome with the wisdom of the priest astronomers of Egypt.....yet one thing survived, being the Julian Calendar.
During the visit that Julius Caesar made to Egypt he brought the court astronomer, Sosigenes to develope the hopeless Roman calendar.

Sosigenes was a Greek and had studied at the great Alexandrian Library, and he started the Julian calendar on 1st January 0045BC, which has no connection to the Equinox's, and that date was chosen probably as the Consuls of Rome started taking office on 1st January 153BC, yet the star alignment that i wish to bring to your notice was happening in Egypt long before 153BC, further to this in 0046BC Sosigenes had to make an adjustment of between 80/90 days to the calendar, which was a huge amount, to bring this more into keeping with the seasons, so within reason he could have placed 1st January on a number of limited dates, if he was trying to align the calendar to Sirius, like with the beliefs of ancient Egypt.

Obviously many archaeoastronomers have looked to see if Sosigenes started the Julian Calendar with a connection to Sirius....BUT THEY MISSED SOMETHING AS THEY LOOKED AT MID-NIGHT OR SUNRISE for a Sirius connection, after all this is how an Egyptian priest would have started a new calendar.

Before we go further, i must say that the ancient priests of Thoth were very opposed to any change in their divine calendar, they knew that the heliacal rising of Sirius was slightly out of calcalating the length of the year and relied on the Sothic cycle to keep the calendar accurate, putting in leap years was against their religion.

Obviously Julius Caesar was a very dominating emperor, and we can safely say that he wanted to dominate Egypt, one way to do this would have been dominating their calendar, changing it or reversing it, which would have sent the preists into spasms of dread.

When we look at ancient beliefs concerning how to calcalate the start of the day, we can go to babylonian beliefs during this era, that started the day at sunset, this isnt unsual as in the Middle ages we had the Florentine calendar that started at sunset, and even today the Jewish calendar starts the day at sunset.
The Egyptians used a visible measurement for viewing Sirius, the same as astronomers today, in astrology this measurement is called the paran.

If Sosigenes started the day and the start of the Julian Calendar at sunset, this makes this very sensitive to location, yet we know this measurement was probably in Egypt, where three locations are feasible, being Alexandria, Memphis or Thebes, ancient capitol of Egypt, that is now called Luxor.

So because we are looking for sunset i would have to set my astronomy programme for 31st December 0046 BC.
There is only one location in Egypt that shows a connection to Sirius in that Era by using Sunset,.....time 17:19pm on 31st Dec. 0046 BC. in Thebes now called Luxor, 25*N41' 32*E39'.
Here it can be seen that as the Sun sets, Sirius is rising, please view attachment.
I cant say for sure that Caesar started the Julian Calendar at sunset, he was dead within sixteen months, but it looks likely when we consider later calendar reforms that modified the calendar to midnight, as i will show you that the Isis heaven star, Sirius, was also connected to the later Gregorian reform, that i will deal with in the next thread section.

Please view astronomy picture on attachment, it is split into two pictures as i cannot show what is rising and what is setting on the same picture.

[Gravy]

Hi Everyone,Hi, Derek. Welcome to the forums.

Astrology started with an ancient king grapping hold of the court mystics and asking when would be the best time to wage war on his neighbour, which is called electional astrology meaning waiting for planetary alignments to co-incide with the preferred actions.Before I read any further, please explain how you know this specific information about the origin of astrology.

Also, quickly scanning your post, I don't see a conspiracy. Are you alleging one?

Thanks!

[uk_dave]

An old astrological saying:

"When mars is in conjunction with uranus and jupiter is in the house of pancakes, then ye shall know the time of the turkey."

[OldTigerCub]

Hi Everyone,
I'm new here, and have pondered on where to put this very long thread, after a lot of thought i have descided to head it under conspiracies, although i'm not sure my research should be in this category.

I have interests in archaeoastronomy, and the use of astrology by religion going back to Egyptian times, but i must strongly add that this thread isnt trying to prove astrology works, but rather to show how the beliefs of astrology has been used leading up to the present day.


Let me welcome you to the forum as well, Derek.:w2:
Interesting topic, though you might find the General Scepticism, Religion or History subforums a more fitting place for discussion of astrology, especially as your study seems to relate it to history, religion and the political implications of astrology in ancient times.

[Hokulele]

I would recommend that you PM the mods and request that they move this to the Science or History forum.

Regarding your idea, I do not think you have provided sufficient evidence to support this, and much of what you list is either speculation or coincidence. For one example, take this phrase:

I cant say for sure that Caesar started the Julian Calendar at sunset, he was dead within sixteen months, but it looks likely when we consider later calendar reforms that modified the calendar to midnight, as i will show you that the Isis heaven star, Sirius, was also connected to the later Gregorian reform, that i will deal with in the next thread section.

How would a calendar reform that changes the start of a day to midnight support the idea that the day starts at sunset? That seems to be rather a leap in logic.

[Derek]

I have a great deal of evidence to put down on thread yet, but obviously the Gregorian Calendar starts the day at midnight, this was put in place in Rome by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582, there are many secret religions that value Sirius, I would recommend you read some books by Dame Francis Yates (1899-1981), Reader in history of the Renaissance at the Warburg Institute, school of advanced learning attached to the University of London, she was the leading Renaissance scholar of her time, she was a pioneer in recognizing the significance of esoteric traditions to European history.

Please wait for my further research before giving too many comments, for me to answer, while trying to show a pattern to later reform.
Jack Horkheimer is a well known astronomer, so im showing some of his comments on attachment, obviously being a new member i cant give web-links yet.

What i am saying that you will not be able to prove i'm wrong that taking into account time zones that was a product of 19th century invention because of the railways, the Gregorian Calendar aligns to Egyptian beliefs, Sirius aligned to the Midheaven even today, it is this i wish to explain in detail that will take some time, while i'm getting there please ponder how Sirius chimes in New Year even today without waiting for midnight on 1st January to align to Sirius by procession, before calendar reform to take place, it will take nearly 26,000 years if we still follow the Gregorian calendar to align again to the midheaven, which is a very important area in the beliefs of astrologers, please look at attachment.

It is why even today the Egyptian belief of Sirius signalling New Year still happens, i'm trying to explain, if you have other ideas you could start with explaining how the Isis Star, chimes at the exact minute of New Year in the 21st century without it being engineered to do so?

Obviously religion would take a knock if it was shown that all through this we have been following beliefs that originated in Egypt 5,000 years ago!
Doubt me all you like but dont doubt the astronomers, Sirius even today brings in New Year, give me time to explain!

[GreNME]

I have interests in archaeoastronomy, and the use of astrology by religion going back to Egyptian times, but i must strongly add that this thread isnt trying to prove astrology works, but rather to show how the beliefs of astrology has been used leading up to the present day.

"Archaeoastronomy" is way misused by conspiracy theories, astronomy is not like astrology, and calling what the Egyptian did concerning the stars 'astrology' is a misnomer.

Astrology started with an ancient king grapping hold of the court mystics and asking when would be the best time to wage war on his neighbour, which is called electional astrology meaning waiting for planetary alignments to co-incide with the preferred actions.

:rolleyes: Astrology is not astronomy.

Recently i gave a research paper into the Warburg Institute for study and the first part of this thread is involved with the Egyptian, Julian and Gregorian calendars.

Care to share this paper, or tell us where to obtain a copy for review?

Later i will have to explain many of the perculiar rules of astrology, but as the Egyptian Thoth Calendar ...
The beliefs of ancient Egyptians was bound up in their calendar, they thought that "Isis was the star Sirius, and "Osiris was the stars in the Orion"...

Okay, Derek, if you want to have a real and honest discussion on this, as opposed to you simply posting copy-pasting of poorly-researched astrology lectures, then I'll be happy to point out to you just how seriously you are messing up.

Obviously religion would take a knock if it was shown that all through this we have been following beliefs that originated in Egypt 5,000 years ago!

Since I am positive you will not be capable of showing one whit of actual verifiable ancient evidence-- considering most ancient Egyptian artifacts are publically available to look at and individually verify ourselves-- you are at a serious disadvantage.

[GreNME]

I would recommend that you PM the mods and request that they move this to the Science or History forum.

Nope, this is what could be called 'woo' in a pretty distilled form, and it's definitely conspiracy theory. I suspect that it will be maybe two or three more posts by Derek before he begins getting into the typical Jesus Myth parts.

And then he'll make a part 2 thread, covering why 9/11 was an inside job.

And in thread part 3, he'll show how the Federal Reserve is a secret evil society.

[sophia8]

Derek, to be honest, you're not making a lot of sense. What is your point, exactly?
I've read through your posts and I can only guess that you're saying something about Sirius having something to do with our modern Western calender. The attachment you included is unreadable. Where did it come from?
Why is the position of Sirius on New Year's Eve so important? I've taken a quick look on my astronomy program and Sirius is where it always is at this latitude in midwinter - low in the South.

[Derek]

Hi Gravy,
Thanks for your comments, i agree with your comments on 11th September 2001, and i dont think the Government conspired to kill their own nationals, but my research does have a connection to 9/11, so please wait for a while to see this.

When Astrology began it was only for the use of Kings or the leaders of a country, there are many times when it was used for coronations or in waging war, i will get to this research in due time.

I have put on attachment the actual alignment of Sirius to New Year 2002 at time 00:00am, where by astronomy it can be seen that during this year both Sirius and Jupiter aligned straight upwards.

I have no wish to antagonize religious readers of any persuasion, yet i get a little fearful of fundamentalist idea's in the modern world, obviously Sirius isnt mentioned in the Bible, but i have included a direct translation of the Quran that mentions Sirius on Attachment.

Obviously Mohammed Atta (leader of the terrorists on 9/11) was Egyptian but a Muslim not an Egyptian Copt, but i would have thought he would have known his own calendar, Egypt adopted its constitution on 11th Sept 1971.
The Coptic Calendar symbolically celebrate the rising of Sirius on 11th September in this era, i'll go into this in detail later!

[Gravy]

Hi Gravy,
Thanks for your comments, i agree with your comments on 11th September 2001, and i dont think the Government conspired to kill their own nationals, but my research does have a connection to 9/11, so please wait for a while to see this.I value my time. If you can't answer my first question, I'll give your posts a pass. Please give your source(s) for this statement:

Astrology started with an ancient king grapping hold of the court mystics and asking when would be the best time to wage war on his neighbour.

[GreNME]

Hi Gravy,
Thanks for your comments, i agree with your comments on 11th September 2001, and i dont think the Government conspired to kill their own nationals, but my research does have a connection to 9/11, so please wait for a while to see this.

So I was right: you're basically doing the Zeitgeist movie in long form.

When Astrology began it was only for the use of Kings or the leaders of a country, there are many times when it was used for coronations or in waging war, i will get to this research in due time.

No such research.

I have no wish to antagonize religious readers of any persuasion, yet i get a little fearful of fundamentalist idea's in the modern world, obviously Sirius isnt mentioned in the Bible, but i have included a direct translation of the Quran that mentions Sirius on Attachment.

You are lying and presenting false context with that dubious 'direct translation' of the Qu'ran. Sura 53:49 The phrase rabb ash- shicraa is a phrase referencing pre-Islamic worship, stating that Allah is above even the pagan powers ref. (http://communityquran.com/quran/translate/YAT/ayah/53.49). The context of the phrase is that the Prophet is saying even the power behind the stars the pagans worshipped comes from Allah ref. (http://communityquran.com/quran/translate/ASD/ayah/53.49). I strongly suggest you do some actual research on things like the whole sura (http://communityquran.com/quran/surah/MAL/53/themes). There are a lot of pre-Islamic beliefs mentioned, but none in the way that support your overall premise.

Obviously Mohammed Atta (leader of the terrorists on 9/11) was Egyptian but a Muslim not an Egyptian Copt, but i would have thought he would have known his own calendar, Egypt adopted its constitution on 11th Sept 1971.
The Coptic Calendar symbolically celebrate the rising of Sirius on 11th September in this era, i'll go into this in detail later!

Oh, you are so poorly informed that it would be laughable if you weren't trying to come off as if you did real research (as opposed to parrotting previous falshoods). The population of Egypt today is not representative of the population of ancient Egypt. The only people who are somewhat representative of the ancient Egyptian population in Egypt are the minority Nubians. Trying to connect Mohamed Atta to ancient Egypt is honestly an exercise in futility.

[GreNME]

I value my time. If you can't answer my first question, I'll give your posts a pass. Please give your source(s) for this statement:
Astrology started with an ancient king grapping hold of the court mystics and asking when would be the best time to wage war on his neighbour.

My best guess is his source is either Acharya S or Lloyd Graham.

ETA: and maybe Jordan Maxwell.

[Derek]

Hi Sophia8,
If you cant read attachments please tap on them that will increase the size, Sirius definitely does align to the Meridian on 1st Jan., i dont think anyone would argue with the attachment to Google Earth, which is now Google Space, anyone that has this free download will be able to tap on Sirius for information.
This will say "Sirius Alpha Canis Major is the brightest star in the night-time sky with a visual magnitude of 1.47.
The best time of the year to view it is around Jan. 1st when it reaches the Meridian at midnight", so that clears that up, it is a fact!

Hi Gravy,

My source as far as the history of astrology and astronomy is Dr Nicholas Campion of Bath Spa University, Senior Lecturer, History, School of Historical and Cultural Studies.
BA(Queens College, Cambridge) MA (School of Oriental and African Studies, London) PhD (University of the West of England/Bath Spa University College).

Nicholas Campion is Senior Lecturer in History, his main research interest is the relationship between human culture and the sky, wether in science, astronomy, astrology and sacred calendars, be my guest look him up on the web.

Obviously as astrology and astronomy were linked at one time, to say that there isnt an historical link between the two is wrong, again i must say i'm not trying to prove astrology works, but through history there has been links with religion and astrology.

O.K. lets put down what Francis Yates and Nicholas Campion have researched, obviously if you have a problem with it, take it up with the University of London which "The Warburg Institute" is attached to, but they are all PhD,s/Professors, so that is up to you!

"It is often assumed that Christianity and astrology are rival beliefs, an assumption held by many modern Christians, who are generally opposed to astrology on the basis of the criticism of astrologers in the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 47, Verses 13-14.

However, it is quite clear that else where in the Bible astronomers are viewed favourably, and the prophet Daniel himself was said to have been cheif astrologer, first to the Babylonian Kings Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar and subsequently to the Persian Emperor Darius.

The cosmological beliefs which gave birth to astrology were the same as held by the writers of the Old Testament, and it is therefore not surprising that close links between astrology and religion should continue as Christianity evolved in the first few centuries after Christ.

Yet even Catholics were often predisposed to believe in the general influence of the stars, and this belief was reinforced by the general acceptence of Neo-Platism. (Plato was often regarded as a "honorary Christian.)
Obviously a solution had to be found to this dilemma during the Renaissance, for it was clear that it was impossible for both God and the stars to rule human destiny.

The solution, first suggested by the arguments of Boethius and Isidore in the 5th and 6th centuries, and clarified by Thomas Aguinas in the 13th century, is enshrined in the distinction between Natural and Judicial astrology.
Aquinas' solution was that the human body is ruled by the stars but the soul is ruled by God.
Therefore all astrology concerned with natural functions and instincts was compatible with Christianity and was known as Natural Astrology.
(However i dont think aligning Sirius to New Year would come under this distinction as this relates to Hermetic beliefs.)
Included under this heading were medical astrology, agricultural astrology, and any similiar branch of the subject.
On the other hand, uses of astrology which appeared to involve individual destiny were seen to interfere with the realm of the soul and were therefore incompatible with Christianity.

When the Papacy eventually in 1586 and 1681 passed bulls prohibiting astrology, it was Judicial astrology, not natural astrology.
However, in a society in which Christianity was the universal religion in the West, all shades of opinion were encompassed, and all were tolerated which didnt threaten the physical authority of the church.

Judicial astrology flourished amoung churchmen at all times, naturally enough it was taught in ecclesiacal schools.
Many had reservations about the implications of prediction, but many were also prepared to justify it, as did Roger Bacon in the 13th Century, the Franciscan monk and scholar who considered that the church should use astrology in order to outwit the skills of the Tartar astrologers, and pridict the arrival of the Anti-Christ.
The main orders of friars, the Dominicans and Fransciscans were firm supporters, and the most powerful Renaissance group, the Jesuits were also active. Even in the upper levels of the Inquisition, which were supposed to root out all heresy, Judicial astrology was practiced.

Many popes used astrologers and Pope Paul III used astrologers to time his audiences, Pope Julius II even used astrologers to descide the correct time to have a statue of himself erected, indeed Pope Gregory XIII who was responsible for the Gregorian Calendar has his astrology natal chart preserved in the Vatican library.

Luca Gaurico in particular achieved fame by dubiously predicting to Alessandro Farnese in 1529 that he would become Pope, which was very lucky as Alessandro succeeded as Pope Paul III, and he not only rewarded Gaurico with the bishopric of Guffoni, but made the papal court a centre of astrological activity.
In Italy, and inspite of the traditional clerical reservations about Judicial astrology, the papal court finally become a centre for astrology of all kinds.
Pope Paul III, Leo X, and Adrian VI in the sixteenth century all encouraged astrologers, Alexander VI used astrology to help plan his military campaigns, and Julius II had the time of his coronation chosen astrologically, and Innocent VIII consulted astrologers concerning his relations with the Duke of Milan.
I wish not to antagonize religious readers but this is history, and i was asked to give further information on the history of astrology, which i again say i dont believe in, dont treat me like a cranky astrologer, an understanding of beliefs that surged forward during the renaissance are important in assessing beliefs today!

[Hokulele]

Nope, this is what could be called 'woo' in a pretty distilled form, and it's definitely conspiracy theory. I suspect that it will be maybe two or three more posts by Derek before he begins getting into the typical Jesus Myth parts.

And then he'll make a part 2 thread, covering why 9/11 was an inside job.

And in thread part 3, he'll show how the Federal Reserve is a secret evil society.


You were right. Darn, so much for an interesting discussion on the roots of modern astronomy.

[jsfisher]

I have a great deal of evidence to put down on thread yet, but obviously the Gregorian Calendar starts the day at midnight...



The day ends at midnight. The new day begins immediately following.

Midnight is 12:00 PM and noon is 12:00 AM, despite what misguided computer software may suggest.

[Jeff Corey]

Shirley,you can't be Sirius, Lassie and Asta were the dog stars, and Rin Tin Tin, and Bengy and Ole Yeller. And that Jack Russel on Frazier.
I know that cat pictures are discouraged on the forum, but what about dogs?
<--------------- Molly

[Zep]

Can't...help...it!

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars!

[my_wan]

:popcorn1

[Gravy]

Hi Gravy,

My source as far as the history of astrology and astronomy is Dr Nicholas Campion of Bath Spa University, Senior Lecturer, History, School of Historical and Cultural Studies.
BA(Queens College, Cambridge) MA (School of Oriental and African Studies, London) PhD (University of the West of England/Bath Spa University College).

Nicholas Campion is Senior Lecturer in History, his main research interest is the relationship between human culture and the sky, wether in science, astronomy, astrology and sacred calendars, be my guest look him up on the web.Okay, I see that I didn't make my intent clear. I'm trying to establish the truth of your statement. A general reference to a lecturer does not help. Have you made any effort to establish the truth of your statement? If so, please direct me to the specific sources you used.

If you are you simply passing along an unsubstantiated claim, please do not do so again. Fair enough?

[GreNME]

You were right. Darn, so much for an interesting discussion on the roots of modern astronomy.

Sadly, from his very first post he diverged from astronomy and dove straight into astrology. I was prepared for it because I've been looking into some of Acharya's source material to see where she got her ideas, and a lot of it is astrology masquerading as astronomy (and doing a poor job of it). Considering the direction she and those like her take after getting on that road, it wasn't a leap to assume Derek would do the same thing. The sad part is that he didn't even do it with much creativity, practically cutting-pasting what others have said.

[Hokulele]

I kind of noticed when he latched on to Egyptian misinformation, and basically dismissed most of the Babylonian background data, then promptly leaped ahead to the Renaissance ignoring all of the other Arabic sources. I have yet to see a Zeitgeist-inspired person even dream of touching on Chinese astronomy or astrology. :(

[GreNME]

I kind of noticed when he latched on to Egyptian misinformation, and basically dismissed most of the Babylonian background data, then promptly leaped ahead to the Renaissance ignoring all of the other Arabic sources. I have yet to see a Zeitgeist-inspired person even dream of touching on Chinese astronomy or astrology. :(

They don't touch the Babylonian stuff because it's too similar to the old Hebrew stuff, and it just looks too obvious since not only Hebraic ancient history (in written form) displays it pretty clearly but the Babylonians and Assyrians talk about it as well. It's obvious, it's pretty well-known (and understood) history, which makes for a boring drama (and, if you don't like history, boring reading material). Egyptology, on the other hand, is exciting: it has mummies and pyramids and stargates and... err, you know what I mean. The same applies to Persian history, which is an empire we hear about tangentally in school but never to the exciting detail that it could be told, so 'obviously' they're hiding something... right?

It's old hat of regurgitated snake oil, and (unfortunately) it is undermining a lot of really cool historical study.

[Hokulele]

Wait, wait, did you say Stargates?

Yay! Something interesting to discuss. ;)

But seriously though, as an intellectual exercise, if you were trying to establish a premise such as Zeitgeist's based on actual research, would there be a valid reason to gloss over Babylonian mythology?

[GreNME]

Wait, wait, did you say Stargates?

Yay! Something interesting to discuss. ;)

But seriously though, as an intellectual exercise, if you were trying to establish a premise such as Zeitgeist's based on actual research, would there be a valid reason to gloss over Babylonian mythology?

Except that it would likely negate the need for looking as far as Persia or Egypt for influences, I guess the main reason is that it's considered reasonably reliable history (and is even considered theologically sound to a degree... Abraham is said to have come from Ur, a Sumerian city).

The problem with Zeitgeist is that they mention names like Sargon of Akkad and then quickly move to the next names, displaying the fact that they obviously know the most likely influences but decided to skip over them because they wouldn't have been able to weave their intricate tapestry of Egyptian, Greek, and Persian lore into their story so easily. The progression of cultural and religious influence on the early Jews by Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, and Assyria is pretty evident not only in the Bible itself, but even moreso in historical record. It just isn't really all that controversial and not as "god-killing" of information as comparing Judaism and Christianity to more recognizable and weird (by today's standards) religions of the Egyptians and Greeks. What's more confusing is why they Jesus-mythers in Zeitgeist and other publications don't spend more time on Persian Zoroastrianism (Mithraism), where there are definite traces of superficial influences on Christian symbology and a basic similarity in the unique "good vs evil" aspect of the faith compared with early Judaism. There really are a plethora of valid paths they could have followed and yet seemed to avoid, I suppose because they were less controversial and didn't really provide a basis for some deep-seated religious plagiarism. Who cares that the halo is influenced from Persian symbolism, and who cares that the rosary came from Arabic practices and found its way into Catholicism and Islam? I guess that kind of stuff is boring and it takes actual study to trace the paths of influence. Why no heavy coverage of the interesting unique characteristic that Zarathustra (Zoroaster) and the Hebrew prophets were the first to tell people that their pantheons were false and that their one god is the source of good in a world of evil? Probably because of how complicated and non-straight-forward it was.

I guess the easy answer is that those making the claims like in Zeitgeist are intellectually lazy, but that sounds too much like an insult without explanation, and I also don't see the need to assign motives to a school of thought that damns itself pretty thoroughly without such help. Instead, I use it as an opportunity to provoke those making the claims to do actual research and find out how much less simple their attempts to re-write the tapestry of human history really are.

[GreNME]

I forgot to add: the silliest part of the attempts of the Jesus-Mythers is that they seem to ignore the fact that there were actually dozens of would-be prophets at or around the time of Jesus, most recorded by the Jews themselves, who all met untimely ends at the hands of-- you probably guessed it-- the Romans. Go figure.

[Hokulele]

True, although I wasn't thinking as much about motive as valid reasons to skip it all. I also noticed that they only focused on the mythology and avoided any discussion of the history of Mosaic law (or else I missed it after my eyes glazed over). Treating this background would make more sense if it were meant as a scholarly work showing the roots of oppression, rather than sensational.

And regarding your follow-up, I can honestly say that they probably knew nothing about this. I know I would not be able to name a single one of those would-be prophets without serious time in a library.

Lastly, regarding your observation on lazy scholarship, it certainly carries over to their adherents. I went 12 rounds over in Religion and Philosophy with someone (thesyntaxerror?) over whether or not Taoism had shamanistic roots. It was amazing how little they knew about Asian religions and their ties to politics. Everything they found was through the most cursory of Googles.

By the way, my interest is more from the astrology/astronomy portion, as that was a good portion of my coursework years ago when I was in college (History of Science). Although I did take one semester looking at the history of alchemy, and the vague references to the Hermetic tradition were amusing.

[GreNME]

And regarding your follow-up, I can honestly say that they probably knew nothing about this. I know I would not be able to name a single one of those would-be prophets without serious time in a library.

Well, I've had the opportunity to be given a lot of good info from some well-informed Jewish friends. I don't think the names are that hard to find info on, though. In fact, the one most people I know who have followed Jewish history think was a good example of a Jewish moshiach was bar Kokhba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_bar_Kokhba), who led a revolt that was put down (by the Romans) in the second century. There are lists the Jews kept of would-be messiahs, and while I've seen Jesus on some of those lists I don't know that there are any that date back as far as the historic time in question to support veracity of actual existence. The trouble there, though, for the Jesus-Mythers is that the Jews didn't keep tabs on every would-be messiah, just ones who actually got involved in revolt. If Jesus was more a preacher than a revolutionary there's very little reason he'd have gotten much attention, and the Jews didn't tend to take very kindly to those they considered heretics (like the Samaritans). But I digress.

I couldn't give you a reason based on validity for them to leave stuff out. As for the astronomy part, I can only attest to knowing the basics of that. While that likely puts me at least on par with a lot of the astrology-Jesus-mythers, I don't know if i could give you much unprompted information on ancient astronomy. A lot of it was speculation and, frankly, the Chinese tended to be more accurate.

ETA: but hey, if you have any books on science history you think are recoomendable, I love educated recommendations. I found a gem in a library on one of the earliest computers from last century that I thought was very fascinating (especially in light of this news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7094881.stm)), and I always welcome more science-y reading.

[Hokulele]

Thanks for the link. As Judaism isn't very prevalent where I live (although I do know of one temple on the island), I don't have many people with this kind of knowledge to ask, so most of my research has to be done the old-fashioned (i.e. hard) way.

Interesting that bar Kokhba was renamed to forge a link to the prophets. I would assume that this would be common practice, hence all of the attempts in the New Testament to find ties to the Old Testament.

And if you need any recommendations on references for the history of astronomy, feel free to give a shout. If you are interested, this is a decent overview (http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/phys/alshukri/PHYS215/Islamic%20astronomy.htm) of the basic tenets of Islamic astronomy, the role it played in preserving Greek astronomy as revived in the Renaissance, and its roots in astrology, as well as the role astrology played in Islamic society.


ETA: Whoops! Just noticed your addition. Do you have a particular field in mind? I can give you a number of them on astronomy, Chinese technology, or a couple on alchemy. I do also have a list of biographies of various people you might find interesting. If people start to tell me I am off topic or boring, we can take this to PM.

[godless dave]

Hi Sophia8,
If you cant read attachments please tap on them that will increase the size, Sirius definitely does align to the Meridian on 1st Jan., i dont think anyone would argue with the attachment to Google Earth, which is now Google Space, anyone that has this free download will be able to tap on Sirius for information.
This will say "Sirius Alpha Canis Major is the brightest star in the night-time sky with a visual magnitude of 1.47.
The best time of the year to view it is around Jan. 1st when it reaches the Meridian at midnight", so that clears that up, it is a fact!


So what?

That ancient Egyptians observed and recorded the positions of the stars is not news.

That ancient Greeks did so as well is also not news (the Ptolemaic dynasty was of Greek ancestry and culture, although much influenced by native Egyptian culture and much intermarried with native Egyptians).

That the Roman Empire adopted customs and knowledge from cultures they conquered is also not news. I didn't know that the Julian calendar was specifically based on Egyptian practices but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

That the Roman Christian Church borrowed heavily from pagan beliefs from throughout the Empire is hardly a secret.

So, what are you getting at, and why do you think it's significant?

[LawnOven]

The day ends at midnight. The new day begins immediately following.

Midnight is 12:00 PM and noon is 12:00 AM, despite what misguided computer software may suggest.


Wait, really?
I didn't know that.

Could you point me to some literature on the matter?

[Ladewig]

The day ends at midnight. The new day begins immediately following.

Midnight is 12:00 PM and noon is 12:00 AM, despite what misguided computer software may suggest.


That seems so counterintuitive. Can you provide a reliable source for that claim?

[sophia8]

Hi Sophia8,
If you cant read attachments please tap on them that will increase the size, Sirius definitely does align to the Meridian on 1st Jan., i dont think anyone would argue with the attachment to Google Earth, which is now Google Space, anyone that has this free download will be able to tap on Sirius for information.
This will say "Sirius Alpha Canis Major is the brightest star in the night-time sky with a visual magnitude of 1.47.
The best time of the year to view it is around Jan. 1st when it reaches the Meridian at midnight", so that clears that up, it is a fact!I tried Google Space, but couldn't find that text. I'll have to assume that the Meridian mentioned is the Prime Meridian. This is an imaginary circle that's drawn through the sky and which help skywatchers locate cosmic objects (I'm not an astronomer, so any astronomers reading this are welcome to correct me). Around New Year, Sirius is a few degrees away from the Prime Meridian; however, there are several quite bright stars that are as close or closer, especially in the Gemini constellation. Additionally, you seem to be forgetting the importance of latitude. At my latitude (54N), Sirius isn't much above tree-top level at this time of year. I know because my kitchen window faces South and I get an excellent view of it on clear winter nights. You may have the idea that "Meridian" means "straight overhead"; it does not.

As to your citing of Nick Campion in support - Nick is an acquaintance of mine; he is a very good researcher who would be embarrassed by you citing his name.

Oh, and I tried enlarging your attachment but still found it largely unreadable.

[jsfisher]

Wait, really?
I didn't know that.

Could you point me to some literature on the matter?

That seems so counterintuitive. Can you provide a reliable source for that claim?


Here's one, although a little oblique: The US Government Printing Office Style Manual (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/stylemanual/2000/chapter_txt-9.html) defines midnight as 12 p.m., thus making it the last part of the current day.

NIST (http://www.physics.nist.gov/News/Releases/questions.html), on the other hand hedges the question by saying that it is too confusing, so use noon and midnight instead of AM and PM.

It seems like most of the Internet references are evasive, ambiguous, or non-authoritative. My decade old The World Almanac and Book of Facts was very clear that the day ended at midnight and the next day started right after. My more recent The World Almanac and Book of Facts avoids the question entirely.

Oh, well. I suppose it is like language, subject to evolutionary pressures.

[Nick227]

That the Roman Christian Church borrowed heavily from pagan beliefs from throughout the Empire is hardly a secret.


Hi Dave,

Am I to take it that you're in agreement with Zeitgeist Pt 1 then?

Nick

[grmcdorman]

Personally, I always understood that midnight and noon are neither AM nor PM. AM is ante meridian (before noon) and PM is post meridian, after all; how can noon be before or after itself? And midnight is just as much before noon as it is after.

I don't have a cite to back this up, though; and I'm too lazy to do a search for one :p

[godless dave]

Hi Dave,

Am I to take it that you're in agreement with Zeitgeist Pt 1 then?

Nick


What's Zeitgeist part 1?

[Cuddles]

Here's one, although a little oblique: The US Government Printing Office Style Manual (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/stylemanual/2000/chapter_txt-9.html) defines midnight as 12 p.m., thus making it the last part of the current day.

NIST (http://www.physics.nist.gov/News/Releases/questions.html), on the other hand hedges the question by saying that it is too confusing, so use noon and midnight instead of AM and PM.

It seems like most of the Internet references are evasive, ambiguous, or non-authoritative. My decade old The World Almanac and Book of Facts was very clear that the day ended at midnight and the next day started right after. My more recent The World Almanac and Book of Facts avoids the question entirely.

Oh, well. I suppose it is like language, subject to evolutionary pressures.

I have a clock that goes to 24:00, followed by 00:01. Although I suppose technically it should switch to 0s after one second. On the other hand, I have other clocks which go straight to 00:00.

It also depends what kind of timing you're using. If you use a 12 hour AM/PM system then grmcdorman must logically be correct, since noon and midnight can't be either AM or PM. On the other hand, if you use a 24 hour system, there is no AM or PM, so it becomes a simple matter of defining midnight as either 2400 or 0000. Unfortunately, as far as I know, no-one actually agrees which it is.

NPL (the UK equivalent of NIST) has this (http://www.npl.co.uk/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.1055) to say.

Glad I could help clear things up.:)

[Derek]

Hi Everyone,
You will have to give me time to reply, as i am disabled and typing is painful, so it will be a few days before i will return to this forum, the Quran translation comes from the University of California that i posted, all translations are more or les the same, however the reson i posted it was to show that Sirius is a popular star in religion, obviously this part of the Quran comes from the Zend-Avesta where Sirius is called Trishtriya, and there is debate that it is the source of the Garden of Eden myths.

The other comment was that the Copts dont have much connection to ancients Egyptians which is true, the Coptic Church is a branch of Christianity, who readily admit that they follow a remnant of the ancient Egyptian calendar, thus the first day of New Year is called the first of Tout or Thoth and is the symbol of the heliacal rising of Sirius.
The early Christian church headed by Saint Mark found converting Egyptians relitively easy for one reason, due to the fact that it resembled their own myths. Mary, the virgin just overlaid the Isis Horus myths, Isis was the god mother and Mary was the mother of God.

The Gregorian Calendar also shows a connection to Sirius as on one day only Sirius reaches its highest point within one degree on the prime meridian, when by longitude measures time, this happens on 1st Jan. at midnight.

When the calendar was put into place in 1582/3 there wasnt a prime meridian, midnight was calcalated locally, so obviously for a lot of locations this doesnt happen today, when hours are rounded off to comply with time zones, so up to when Greenwich England was used this way in the late part of the 19th Century, things were done differently.

In fact the reason for time zones wwas the invention of trains, when it become impractical for travellers to adjust their watches for short journeys for a few minutes, in the 17th century a journey of 100 miles would need an adjustment of a few minutes, when the calendar was put in place all Western latitudes would have Sirius denoting New Year at midnight, today it only does it every 15 degrees of longitude from 00*W00', although it is getting out of sinc with the prime meridian today due to procession, so anyone here living in New York being a degree down from every 15* degrees(74* longitude) would be able to see this.

I will go into the whole complicated process of the reform of 1582 and the English reform of 1752 on the next thread section, but please give me time.
Obviously astrology is a belief, it isnt my belief, but anyone who thinks that governments didnt use it up to two hundred years ago are sorely mistaken.

Took give a example, the last minute of the Julian Calendar was 23:59pm on
4th October 1582 in Rome Italy, and in that location the 4th October is the only day that will show Sirius rising at that time, probably to correspond to closing the Julian Calendar.

I think you may have labelled me with having views that America was responsible for killing its own people in the evil actions that happened on 11th September 2001......this couldnt be further from the truth.
My point is as both calendars used by different branches of Christianity seemingly have a connection to Sirius and both of them come from the Egyptian Calendar, it would seem that the tradition to attach Sirius to New Year was followed through, and is a little known custom of the Christian church, the first day of new year in the Coptic Church is known as "The Year of the Martyrs", i wonder if the terrorists mis-interpreted this for their own symbolic reasons on 11th September 2001.

It is human nature to use dates and re-interpret them, obviously this has been done throughout human history, we only have to think of Christmas that had many pagan interpretations on it before the church grew tired of stamping out these rituals and just adjusted Christmas day to be placed on top.

Governments and police departments employ psychiatric profilers, which is one of many ways to catch criminals and is a basis of collecting information on them that may one day lead to catching them, so a profile of the possible reasons why the terrorists used 11th September could help as further information comes to our attention.

Obviously profiling isnt evidence but collecting information, so any information that i include below isnt proven but interesting information.
Humans are creatures of habit, symbolism and follow annniversaries, dates are important and anniversaries are followed for love, remembrance/respect (ie. 11th November as Armistice Day , fallen dead) and for more sinister reasons.

Before looking at 11th September 2001, i'm going to give another example of how humans use symbolism, it involves the First World War, but please dont suggest that i'm indicating anything sinister, symbolism is just human nature.

The Battle of Kosovo Poyle ( 28th June 1389, Field of Blackbirds) marks the beginning of the Serbian nation, the spirit of togetherness that saw the Serbian peoples unite against the Turkish invader.
There are some grounds to speculate that 28th June 1914, may have been chosen as the date to assassinate Arch-Duke Ferdinand, at least looking at telegrammes between governments at that time convey a suspicion that this may be the case.
Two bullets fired on a Sarajevo street on a sunny June morning in 1914 set in motion a series of events that shaped the world we live in today.
World War 1, World War 2, the Cold War, and our difficulties in the Middle East all trace their origins to the gunshots that interrupted that Summer day 28th June 1914.
The victims, Arch-Duke Ferdinand, heir to the throne of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and his wife Sophie were shot by 19 year old Gavrilo Princip who thought that the death of the Arch-Duke was the key that would unlock the shackles binding his people to the Astro-Hungarian Empire, in fact it caused a war exactly one month later.
Serbia, figured prominently in the plot, providing the guns, ammunition and training that made the assassination possible, and probably saw a symbolic connection to the battle of Kosovo Poyle.

Going forward the Armistice took place on 11th November 1918, England and France wanted Germany to agree to repayments, because of the cost of the war, so when Germany was forced to sign the Treaty of Versailles, it was again 28th June 1919, symbolising the act of of assassination that caused the war to the treaty that closed the war.
America didnt want to be involved in this Treaty, as they thought the conditions of repayment were too harsh and may lead to Germany becoming fanatical in the decades that followed.
When America produced a treaty restoring freindly relations with Germany both ratified signed agreements were exchanged on 11th November 1921 to co-incide with the symbolism of the armistice on 11th November 1918.
This is an example of how we use dates, there isnt anything sinister about it, it is how humans function.

But applying these rules to profiling 11th September we get a number of interesting interpretations that are below:-
1)Were the terrorists attacking the symbolism of the Sirius connection attached to both calendars of separate branches of the Christian religion, by attacking on 11th September and was there any mis-interpetation of New Years day in the Coptic Church which is " Year of the Martyrs"?

2)One of the targets was the Pentagon that had a ground breaking ceremony on 11th September 1941 could be another reason.

3)Al Qaeda aims are to wipe the Jewish Nation out, therefor isnt interested in any of the West's attempts with peace aggreements that started again with the Madrid Conference of 1991, which then split into a number of agreements trying to help the Jewish Palestine problem.
There may be grat symbolism with the terrorists hatred of the British Mandate.
UNISPAL means United Nations Information System on the question of Palestine and ond on attachment i have included an official document from that web-site.
Here it clearly states that the High Commissioner and Commander in Chief for Palestine the Right Honourable Sir Herbert Samuel, took his Oath of Office on 11th September 1922.
As this Mandate wasn't legal until the Oath of Office, it must be considered an important date, therefor another reason to slaughter innocent people on 11th September.

4)The last agreement to take place before the events of 11th September 2001 was the Sharm El Sheikh Memorandum, this was an important agreement and there were hopes that this would help the peace process, something that Usama Bin Laden and his associates didnt want.
The last page of this agreement is on attachment and comes from an official government web-site.
Here it states after clause 11 that the Memorandum will enter into force one week from the date of signature.
Made and signed in Sharm El Sheikh, 4th September 1999.
One week later makes it 11th September 1999, which is another reason to attack on 11th September 2001.
We could also reason that the bomb attack on Sharm El Sheikh that happened shortly after the London Attack on 23rd July 2005 was a punishment in hosting the peace agreement, and who knows if the attack on Madrid was punishment for the original Madrid Conference?

Obviously profiling cannot be used as evidence but i wouldnt be surprised if one or more of the reasons given above were chosen fore the events of
11th September 2001, my meaning by putting this originally on the conspiracy page was showing the symbolism behind the date!

[Hokulele]

Derek, instead of spamming additional nonsense, why don't you address the questions asked earlier?

[jsfisher]

Derek, or should I call you the Monk,

Why do you keep reposting this same basic stuff on various forums? Wasn't ThothWeb to your liking? Did Astronomy.com displease you?

How many places do you intend to trot our your story? What would you like us to say in response?

[Derek]

Hi JSFisher,
If anyone would have put calendar reform aligned to Sirius as rubbish, then it would have been astronomy.com, as you will note, they didnt say anything, if what i said was wrong then you would have thought that the respected astronomy.com would have said it was rubbish, did they do that?

[Hokulele]

They didn't have to say it was rubbish. We can all see that for ourselves.

How about you address some of the questions from earlier in this thread?

[Derek]

Thanks JSFisher,
It isnt my policy to mention other forums, but as it is already mentioned, and if members have problems following astronomy, Astronomy.com is a valued forum.
Obviously by starting a thread there, where members have the right astronomy programmes to check information, then by my thread "Archaeoastronomy and the alignment of Sirius during calendar reform" on the general astronomy discussion forum would have been slaughtered with comments, they didnt say anything, didnt want to get involved, i had some interesting private messages though.

When anyone makes statements like i did there, you would be up for a lot of comments if my calcalations were wrong.
It also saves me the problem of writing out the rest of this report, please go to page four of the general astronomy discussion on astronomy.com.

[Hokulele]

We did make comments. You are ignoring them and refusing to support your theory. Eventually, everyone (myself included) will get tired of the non-discussion, and this thread, like your others, will be left abandoned.