LC:FC is all about the $$$ Pt. II: Dylan Speaks...

[Good Lt]

From the horse's as...mouth (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19250&view=findpost&p=14696716):

It's all speculation at this point, for all we know they made it for a cool 50,000$[Dylan Avery responds:]

Take that number and multiply it by at least 4 or 5...

Two years, alot of traveling, alot of interviews, and alot of footage to be cleared and paid for.

It will be free as soon as our investors have their money back.
Well, then. $250,000 off of the 9-11 dead. Not too shabby trafficking in blood libel, is it?

BTW, a lot is two words, Dylan.

As pointed out by ref (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3163276&postcount=36) in the last thread on this topic.

[AMTMAN]

From the horse's as...mouth (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19250&view=findpost&p=14696716):

Well, then. $250,000 off of the 9-11 dead. Not too shabby trafficking in blood libel, is it?

BTW, a lot is two words, Dylan.

Who exactly were his investors?

[R.Mackey]

Once again, let's be completely, totally fair about this.

Not all who make money in the wake of September 11th are war profiteers, vultures, or scum.

There are many engineers currently working on the NIST WTC 7 investigation, for instance. It's honest work, hard work, work that probably wouldn't have been paid for had it never happened, but nonetheless required and ultimately beneficial to society. Surely there's no problem here.

Getting closer to the Louder Than Words Gang, there are many reporters and writers who have made a tidy profit off of their stories covering September 11th. The obvious example is the much-discussed Lawrence Wright and his Pulitzer-winning The Looming Tower. I bought a copy. I don't begrudge him his profit in the least. It's a good solid piece of work and a worthy read.

Are these folks "profiteers?" Of course not.

The problem I have, and that everyone should have, with the Louder Than Words Gang is not their for-profit stance -- it's the poor quality of their work. The many variants of their little movie are nothing more than slander, lies, failures of research, and propagation of rumour, as has been exposed endlessly here and a thousand other places.

Kind of a pity. I don't think Avery is entirely without talent, and they've demonstrated an ability to focus as well. Unfortunately, it's been utterly wasted on stupidity and paranoia, accomplishing nothing but evil. I certainly wouldn't want his film credits in my obituary.

Well, they're young, and they may someday figure it out.

[OMGturt1es]

From the horse's as...mouth (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19250&view=findpost&p=14696716):

Well, then. $250,000 off of the 9-11 dead. Not too shabby trafficking in blood libel, is it?

BTW, a lot is two words, Dylan.

As pointed out by ref (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=3163276&postcount=36) in the last thread on this topic.

reading the quote, i think dylan meant that he spent $250k making the movie.

[Good Lt]

reading the quote, i think dylan meant that he spent $250k making the movie.

You're right.

That also seems to be their goal (I'm guessing a good chunk of that isn't their money).

It will be free as soon as our investors have their money back.

[OMGturt1es]

You're right.

That also seems to be their goal (I'm guessing a good chunk of that isn't their money).

regardless, i hope he fails miserably.

[Good Lt]

Me too. And not just any kind of marginal failing.

I mean this:

http://www.dissociatedpress.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/33xghdv.jpg

[Unsecured Coins]

oh noes... not RED X failure!!

[Good Lt]

Oh yes.

That kind of failure.

[maxpower1227]

Good ol' L Ron Avery...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/maxpower01/dylan_avery_big.jpg

...the word "undebunkable" gets thrown around a lot these days, but I think I can say with confidence that....yaddayaddayadda...

[Good Lt]

So what's the word on "undebunkable" these days, Do Over? Not so "undebunkable?"

Got that spell check working yet?

I love writen like Troofers!!

[MetalliSociety]

Yeah and the Titanic was unsinkable...oh wait...

Well George Foreman was unbeatable...oh wait...

I dn't know why people throw around references of invincibility. It just makes the fall even worst when it happens.

It took a whopping 5 minutes after Final Cut was released to debunk something in it.

Actually even before it was released, clips in the trailor were debunked. Dylan just doen't know how to think logically.

[JAStewart]

Anyone want to bet that there 'investors' actually need aboot $400,000 ;)

[kookbreaker]

The problem I have, and that everyone should have, with the Louder Than Words Gang is not their for-profit stance -- it's the poor quality of their work. The many variants of their little movie are nothing more than slander, lies, failures of research, and propagation of rumour, as has been exposed endlessly here and a thousand other places.


Granted, but let us not forget that your examples were workers who did their job, and made no severe ruckus about it. I'm sure Lawrence Wright did some publicity touring, but that's about it.

By comparison, remember how much Dylan & co. bragged and bragged and bragged about how much money they were making and what hot [rule10] they were? Remember early on when they reacted to Gravy's work by asying how important they were and that they didn't need to bother replying to that Mark Roberts peasant?

LTW made money off of 911 by lying about it, and then bragging about how much dough they made lying about it.

[defaultdotxbe]

getting back to the OP, does it strike anyone else as odd dylan says "at least 200-250k"

even without the "at least" modifier he has a margin of error of 20-25%, what kind of bookkeeping is that? do his "investors" know that dylan doesnt seem to know how much money was spent?

i can understand an average produer not having a solid cost figure on the top of his head, but i cant imagine there were really all that many people handling money in this production

[Brainster]

It will be free as soon as our investors have their money back.

Dylan showing why he flunked economics in high school.

[Alt+F4]

The problem I have, and that everyone should have, with the Louder Than Words Gang is not their for-profit stance -- it's the poor quality of their work. The many variants of their little movie are nothing more than slander, lies, failures of research, and propagation of rumour, as has been exposed endlessly here and a thousand other places.

The key word here being LIES.

Another thing that really bugs me is the conspiracy liars saying that folks should buy LC:FC because a portion of the profits are going to sick 9/11 first responders and their families.

As a family member of a first responder I can tell you that not one first responder that we know would ever take a dime from anyone claiming that 9/11 was an "inside job".

[jhunter1163]

getting back to the OP, does it strike anyone else as odd dylan says "at least 200-250k"

even without the "at least" modifier he has a margin of error of 20-25%, what kind of bookkeeping is that? do his "investors" know that dylan doesnt seem to know how much money was spent?

i can understand an average produer not having a solid cost figure on the top of his head, but i cant imagine there were really all that many people handling money in this production

I have little doubt that they know EXACTLY how much it was, they just don't care to reveal just how indebted they are to Uncle Alex. I also have a hard time believing that they spent more than fifty bucks on production. The $250K probably went for beer, flat-screens and a little ganja.

[qarnos]

I am sure that of this "200-250k", a good portion of that is Dylan's profits from the first 3 movies which he sank into FC, and is oh-so desperate to at least get that money back.

[jhunter1163]

It's still up on Google Video, so there ain't much money being made by anyone.

[Brainache]

It's still up on Google Video, so there ain't much money being made by anyone.

This makes me smile.

Dylan can cry about all the hard work he did and the fact that he won't see a profit from it, but here's the thing Dyl': No one forced you to waste the last couple of years producing this rubbish. No one owes you a dime. You could have gotten a job as some low level assistant on a film set or with some local TV station and learned a bit about the stuff they teach in film schools. You could have gotten valuable life and technical skills through work and being responsible, but you didn't.

You spent the last few years living in a fantasy world of internet "stardom" where a bunch of dimwitted acolytes lapped up every dribble from your smug mouth and now you are learning what it means to be the leader of a troop of antisocial paranoid nutjobs. They won't pay you for it and they are already moving on to the next "big thing".

You are, like Hasselhoff, so yesterday.

So brush up your waiter skills, you're going to need them.

[Miragememories]

Once again, let's be completely, totally fair about this.

Not all who make money in the wake of September 11th are war profiteers, vultures, or scum.

There are many engineers currently working on the NIST WTC 7 investigation, for instance. It's honest work, hard work, work that probably wouldn't have been paid for had it never happened, but nonetheless required and ultimately beneficial to society. Surely there's no problem here.

Getting closer to the Louder Than Words Gang, there are many reporters and writers who have made a tidy profit off of their stories covering September 11th. The obvious example is the much-discussed Lawrence Wright and his Pulitzer-winning The Looming Tower. I bought a copy. I don't begrudge him his profit in the least. It's a good solid piece of work and a worthy read.

Are these folks "profiteers?" Of course not.

The problem I have, and that everyone should have, with the Louder Than Words Gang is not their for-profit stance -- it's the poor quality of their work. The many variants of their little movie are nothing more than slander, lies, failures of research, and propagation of rumour, as has been exposed endlessly here and a thousand other places.

Kind of a pity. I don't think Avery is entirely without talent, and they've demonstrated an ability to focus as well. Unfortunately, it's been utterly wasted on stupidity and paranoia, accomplishing nothing but evil. I certainly wouldn't want his film credits in my obituary.

Well, they're young, and they may someday figure it out.

Too cute Ryan!

Try listing your complaints rather than just generalizing.

I started reading your post thinking how reasonable you were being but then it took a sharp turn.

Unfortunately, the bigotry and the rhetoric took hold, and yet again I was left wondering, why, out of thousands of NASA engineers do we only have just one posting in this forum?

MM

[Miragememories]

Dylan showing why he flunked economics in high school.

And I heard he wasn't toilet trained until he was 9 months old.

Are we reaching at straws or what here.

MM

[Bell]

<snip> I was left wondering, why, out of thousands of NASA engineers do we only have just one posting in this forum?

MM

First, how do you know no other Nasa engineers post on the JREF forums?
Second, what the hell does it matter?!

[Brainache]

Too cute Ryan!

Try listing your complaints rather than just generalizing.

I started reading your post thinking how reasonable you were being but then it took a sharp turn.

Unfortunately, the bigotry and the rhetoric took hold, and yet again I was left wondering, why, out of thousands of NASA engineers do we only have just one posting in this forum?

MM

Yeah, and we only seem to have one Canadian Doctor. There must be lots of them. Only one NYC tour guide that I'm aware of too. How many New Zealand Film makers do we have here again? Aussie TV people? It's all very suspicious...:duck:

[Bell]

Yeah, and we only seem to have one Canadian Doctor. There must be lots of them. Only one NYC tour guide that I'm aware of too. How many New Zealand Film makers do we have here again? Aussie TV people? It's all very suspicious...:duck:

I think I'm the only member here that works with the Dutch police. Relevance, MM?

[Miragememories]

First, how do you know no other Nasa engineers post on the JREF forums?
Second, what the hell does it matter?!

Good point Bell.

Only one NASA engineer here has found it necessary to fall back on their company as a means of supporting their personal credibility.

What does it matter?

Not one iota to me.

Apparently it means something here or the fact wouldn't have been shoved in my face.

MM

[Miragememories]

Yeah, and we only seem to have one Canadian Doctor. There must be lots of them. Only one NYC tour guide that I'm aware of too. How many New Zealand Film makers do we have here again? Aussie TV people? It's all very suspicious...:duck:

Good point Brainache.

You certainly have a lot of ones.

MM

[hellaeon]

Mirage, I wonder why out of thousands of troothers (wasn't it 84% in USA alone?), only a handfull post on the JREF Forums and refuse to visit the authorities instead? After all, we are just sheeple who parody the official story, given by the authorities. What better way to get at the JREF forum members then goto the authorities so they can tell us what to think, then we can hail you for all your educational value you have not brought to the forum!

[Brainache]

Good point Bell.

Only one NASA engineer here has found it necessary to fall back on their company as a means of supporting their personal credibility.

What does it matter?

Not one iota to me.

Apparently it means something here or the fact wouldn't have been shoved in my face.

MM

Mr Mackey doesn't need me to speak for him, but I don't think he has ever used his position as a NASA scientist to establish his credibility. His credibility comes from the quality of his arguments, not his employer.

[R.Mackey]

Too cute Ryan!

Try listing your complaints rather than just generalizing.

I started reading your post thinking how reasonable you were being but then it took a sharp turn.

Unfortunately, the bigotry and the rhetoric took hold, and yet again I was left wondering, why, out of thousands of NASA engineers do we only have just one posting in this forum?

MM

Ah, you're "back."

In that case, perhaps you'd like to address the unfinished business (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3145405#post3145405) you left here last time. I remind you that you are toeing the line of your Membership Agreement.

[Miragememories]

I think I'm the only member here that works with the Dutch police. Relevance, MM?

Relevance?

How about the fact that you're Dutch?

I won't play the I'm a Canadian card and we liberated your country.

I will play the "your fellow countryman Danny Jowenko card" though.

He is a leading European expert in controlled demolitions and he is convinced that the collapse of WTC7 was in fact a controlled demolition.

Please Bell keep your own counsel and don't get sucked in by the love-in that pretends to be serious 9/11 analysis here in the JREF Conspiracy Forum.

MM

[GreNME]

Please Bell keep your own counsel and don't get sucked in by the love-in that pretends to be serious 9/11 analysis here in the JREF Conspiracy Forum.

Which love-in pretending to be serious 9/11 analysis forum would you prefer, then?

[Brainache]

So, MM while you're here, care to comment on the actual topic of this thread?

[Miragememories]

Mirage, I wonder why out of thousands of troothers (wasn't it 84% in USA alone?), only a handfull post on the JREF Forums and refuse to visit the authorities instead? After all, we are just sheeple who parody the official story, given by the authorities. What better way to get at the JREF forum members then goto the authorities so they can tell us what to think, then we can hail you for all your educational value you have not brought to the forum!

Really?

Do you honestly wonder or are you just working on a one-act play or something?

Sheeple?

Please source where I used that term?

I apologize for not bringing sufficient educational content to this illustrious forum. My bad.

Maybe tomorrow.

MM

[Good Lt]

He is a leading European expert in controlled demolitions and he is convinced that the collapse of WTC7 was in fact a controlled demolition.

He's completely and demonstrably wrong. (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/introduction)

A Herculean effort you're making, though. Really.

[Bell]

Good point Bell.

Only one NASA engineer here has found it necessary to fall back on their company as a means of supporting their personal credibility.

Mackey has stated (when talking about his NIST paper) that he doesn't like to mention it (Mackey surely can link to that post). It is only a little bit of extra information to proof he knows what he is talking about. In the end "my common sense", "to me it looks like" and "I KNOW it is" doesn't compare to actually having studied for the field one is discussing.

What does it matter?

Not one iota to me.

Hence the "my common sense", "to me it looks like" and "I KNOW it is" arguments from troofers alike.

Apparently it means something here or the fact wouldn't have been shoved in my face.

MM

See above.

[Miragememories]

Ah, you're "back."

In that case, perhaps you'd like to address the unfinished business (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3145405#post3145405) you left here last time. I remind you that you are toeing the line of your Membership Agreement.

Hmm.."toeing the line" that sounds ominous.

Well I went to that link Ryan but there was so much clutter, I wasn't sure what you wanted me to respond to?

Give an old guy a break will ya and just spell it out for me?

Thank you Ryan..you da man!

MM

[T.A.M.]

As a matter of fact, R.Mackey is one of the few who post here regularly who has not provided his educational background and credentials to add to the list. He easily could, but does not because he feels it should be about the argument and its merits or lack of, rather than the qualifications. This is admirable, and in direct opposition to the claim that he uses his credentials to back up his "credibility".

TAM:)

[Miragememories]

Which love-in pretending to be serious 9/11 analysis forum would you prefer, then?

Are you a Bell puppet GreNME?

I suggest you form an a 'original' question if you have one?

If that's not what you do, then, as they like to say here in JREF, "carry on".

MM

[Childlike Empress]

Today Dylan's Mama posted this (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19383&view=findpost&p=14699010) on LCF:

i grew up in a household in which all i heard about 24-7 were comments and ragings similar to yours. it took me a long time to accept that my father was right, despite his rantings. he was a brilliant man and knew alot about politics. he wrote many books and became a tax lawyer, he spoke 7 languages and lost his mind by the time he was 60. regardless of that and perhaps enhanced by that, his political intuition got finer. he ranted against the robber barrons and the rockefellers for years. (i'm sure in the womb, i could hear him shouting and absorbed the words in vitro.) so, in light of that and in response to your post, i would suggest you continue to ask questions and be vigilant regarding our background political scenes, cause that is truely whence come most of our problems. if you are interested i can send you or maybe i might even post some of his stuff. he was brilliant and a visionary. i'm grateful that he was my father in that he inspired me to continuously ask and seek underlying reasons. maybe i'll dig them out.. you can get an idea why dylan is so intense as well. yup. i will find them and perhaps post them. anyway......... glad you are awake. annie...... google "a dispatch of merchants"


She is refering to a work by some William L. Avery, apparently Dylans Grandpa: Dispatch of Merchants (http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/Articles/DispatchOfMerchants.htm)

The guy isn't in it for the money. Even without this bit of information it was obvious to me that he wasn't. He may suffer from some kind of messiah complex but money is surely not the force that motivates Dylan Avery.

[Miragememories]

So, MM while you're here, care to comment on the actual topic of this thread?

Sure.

How much is too much?

Rights cost money.

The truth comes with a price.

It's only a bad thing when we pay for lies.

Why the big delay in revealing the multiple lies that supposedly form the basis of the money making LOOSE CHANGE FINAL CUT?

Is that a good enough response to your question Brainache?

MM

[Bell]

Relevance?

How about the fact that you're Dutch?

I won't play the I'm a Canadian card and we liberated your country.

I will play the "your fellow countryman Danny Jowenko card" though.

He is a leading European expert in controlled demolitions and he is convinced that the collapse of WTC7 was in fact a controlled demolition.

Please Bell keep your own counsel and don't get sucked in by the love-in that pretends to be serious 9/11 analysis here in the JREF Conspiracy Forum.

MM

Jowenko dismisses WTC1 & 2 where controlled demolitions. But you know this allready.

Anyways, I still don't see the relevance that Mackey 'is the only Nasa engineer on this forum', just as the fact that I'm Dutch has no relevance.

Also, I can think for myself which side to believe, thank you very much.

[Miragememories]

He's completely and demonstrably wrong. (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/introduction)

A Herculean effort you're making, though. Really.

Okay.

I assume you have comparable credentials in the profession of controlled demolitions Good Lt which qualifies you to make such a statement?

No?

I thought not.

Talk is so cheap isn't it?

Carry on.

MM

[R.Mackey]

Mackey has stated (when talking about his NIST paper) that he doesn't like to mention it (Mackey surely can link to that post). It is only a little bit of extra information to proof he knows what he is talking about. In the end "my common sense", "to me it looks like" and "I KNOW it is" doesn't compare to actually having studied for the field one is discussing.

Not even that much. I've stated over and over again that I do not use arguments from authority. See here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3129429&highlight=argument+authority#post3129429), or here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3117298&highlight=argument+authority#post3117298), or especially here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2774259&highlight=argument+authority#post2774259), for starters.

I've also challenged Miragememories to find any place where I've made an argument from authority, relying on my employment rather than reasoning to make my case. So far, he's provided nothing.

Rather ironic behavior from someone who once shrilly complained (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2534802#post2534802), over (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2538572#post2538572) and over again (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2538584#post2538584), about ad hominem behavior.

Anyway, it's gotten old. I've long since gotten used to his sniping. Something of substance would be a welcome change.

Sorry for the derail.

[Bell]

Are you a Bell puppet GreNME?

I suggest you form an a 'original' question if you have one?

If that's not what you do, then, as they like to say here in JREF, "carry on".

MM

You're accusing me of having a sock puppet? Report me or my alleged sock to the mods then. I dare you.

Also you failed to answer my GrenME's question about what other forum you prefer.

[Miragememories]

Mackey has stated (when talking about his NIST paper) that he doesn't like to mention it (Mackey surely can link to that post). It is only a little bit of extra information to proof he knows what he is talking about. In the end "my common sense", "to me it looks like" and "I KNOW it is" doesn't compare to actually having studied for the field one is discussing.



Hence the "my common sense", "to me it looks like" and "I KNOW it is" arguments from troofers alike.



See above.

Oh.

So I can ignore all the NASA rhetoric..phew.

Good thing since the NASA 'hay day' ended somewhere in the early 70's.

I looked for a question in your reply Bell but somehow if it wasn't there, I guess I missed it?

MM

[Bell]

Oh.

So I can ignore all the NASA rhetoric..phew.

Good thing since the NASA 'hay day' ended somewhere in the early 70's.

I looked for a question in your reply Bell but somehow if it wasn't there, I guess I missed it?

MM

And then, what non-question in what reply are you talking about? :confused:

[Hyperviolet]

Oh.

So I can ignore all the NASA rhetoric..phew.

Good thing since the NASA 'hay day' ended somewhere in the early 70's.

I looked for a question in your reply Bell but somehow if it wasn't there, I guess I missed it?

MM

It would seem that you're more concerned about bringing up NASA than R.Mackey.

[Miragememories]

As a matter of fact, R.Mackey is one of the few who post here regularly who has not provided his educational background and credentials to add to the list. He easily could, but does not because he feels it should be about the argument and its merits or lack of, rather than the qualifications. This is admirable, and in direct opposition to the claim that he uses his credentials to back up his "credibility".

TAM:)

Yes.

That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that somehow the secret got out.

Your quite right about credentials though.

I certainly wouldn't be so foolish as to assume an engineer working for a company that specialized in the subject of "outer space" would be qualified to act as a credible representative of the 10,000 page NIST WTC Final Report.

Of course if Ryan is responsible for NASA building construction than I understand how he might have some relevant qualifications.

What is his engineering major anyway?

MM

[Brainache]

Originally Posted by annieavery
i grew up in a household in which all i heard about 24-7 were comments and ragings similar to yours. it took me a long time to accept that my father was right, despite his rantings. he was a brilliant man and knew alot about politics. he wrote many books and became a tax lawyer, he spoke 7 languages and lost his mind by the time he was 60. regardless of that and perhaps enhanced by that, his political intuition got finer. he ranted against the robber barrons and the rockefellers for years. (i'm sure in the womb, i could hear him shouting and absorbed the words in vitro.) so, in light of that and in response to your post, i would suggest you continue to ask questions and be vigilant regarding our background political scenes, cause that is truely whence come most of our problems. if you are interested i can send you or maybe i might even post some of his stuff. he was brilliant and a visionary. i'm grateful that he was my father in that he inspired me to continuously ask and seek underlying reasons. maybe i'll dig them out.. you can get an idea why dylan is so intense as well. yup. i will find them and perhaps post them. anyway......... glad you are awake. annie...... google "a dispatch of merchants"


I know it's a cheap joke, but was it a womb or a test tube? ...


As for the rest, so it is all about being an ideologue?...


Ranting and raving about the Rockefellers etc?...


Making up lies to serve a higher Truth? ...


Grandpa lost his mind, but Dylan lost his shirt....


Max Brainache.:Banane30:

[geni]

The guy isn't in it for the money. Even without this bit of information it was obvious to me that he wasn't. He may suffer from some kind of messiah complex but money is surely not the force that motivates Dylan Avery.

It wasn't but well there are in his investors to keep happy and if he wants to go one makeing films he is going to need an income stream from somewhere.

[Miragememories]

Jowenko dismisses WTC1 & 2 where controlled demolitions. But you know this allready.

Anyways, I still don't see the relevance that Mackey 'is the only Nasa engineer on this forum', just as the fact that I'm Dutch has no relevance.

Also, I can think for myself which side to believe, thank you very much.

Yes I know about Jowenko's statements regarding WTC1 and WTC2.

Somehow skeptics think the WTC7 collapse can be described as a controlled demolition by a professional but somehow that doesn't relate to the twin towers.

The distinction has always eluded me but then I'm "grinding a different axe".

MM

[Miragememories]

Not even that much. I've stated over and over again that I do not use arguments from authority. See here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3129429&highlight=argument+authority#post3129429), or here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3117298&highlight=argument+authority#post3117298), or especially here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=2774259&highlight=argument+authority#post2774259), for starters.

I've also challenged Miragememories to find any place where I've made an argument from authority, relying on my employment rather than reasoning to make my case. So far, he's provided nothing.

Rather ironic behavior from someone who once shrilly complained (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2534802#post2534802), over (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2538572#post2538572) and over again (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=2538584#post2538584), about ad hominem behavior.

Anyway, it's gotten old. I've long since gotten used to his sniping. Something of substance would be a welcome change.

Sorry for the derail.

I apologize for all that rampant ad hominem behavior Ryan.

It's not easy being as pure as you.

I'll work on my perfection act.

MM

[Miragememories]

You're accusing me of having a sock puppet? Report me or my alleged sock to the mods then. I dare you.

Also you failed to answer my GrenME's question about what other forum you prefer.

Excuse me.

I never suggested..or meant to suggest you and socks or puppets or sock puppetry had any familiarity.

What other forum I prefer?

Somehow I missed that question?

Could you ask the question again so I can answer it in the proper context?

MM

[Childlike Empress]

Yes.

That would be true if it wasn't for the fact that somehow the secret got out.

Your quite right about credentials though.

I certainly wouldn't be so foolish as to assume an engineer working for a company that specialized in the subject of "outer space" would be qualified to act as a credible representative of the 10,000 page NIST WTC Final Report.

Of course if Ryan is responsible for NASA building construction than I understand how he might have some relevant qualifications.

What is his engineering major anyway?

MM


Stop that. Mr. Mackey's motivation is even more obvious than Mr. Avery's. He loves science, is very involved in it and tries to educate people about it. Producing sometimes brilliant results. I think that he is not aware of the big picture surrounding 9/11 (Fachidiot :mad:), but he is one of a handful of people on this forum whose integrity i take for granted.

[Miragememories]

It would seem that you're more concerned about bringing up NASA than R.Mackey.

Your point?

I have a lot to say about NASA but I doubt Ryan wants to explain why NASA has ignored the moon for several decades.

Apparently his major interest these days is acting as an apologist for NIST.

Personally, I'd rather talk about NASA and and future moon landings.

MM

Stop making personal attacks. If you cannot debate the topic and not the person, then do not post. If you continue to make posts that are personal attacks and off-topic you will be suspended.

[Miragememories]

Stop that. Mr. Mackey's motivation is even more obvious than Mr. Avery's. He loves science, is very involved in it and tries to educate people about it. Producing sometimes brilliant results. I think that he is not aware of the big picture surrounding 9/11 (Fachidiot :mad:), but he is one of a handful of people on this forum whose integrity i take for granted.

I'm truly sorry Empress.

I do respect Ryan's ability to respond intelligently.

I'm in agreement with you, he certainly does not seem to be "aware of the big picture surrounding 9/11".

MM

[R.Mackey]

Stop that. Mr. Mackey's motivation is even more obvious than Mr. Avery's. He loves science, is very involved in it and tries to educate people about it. Producing sometimes brilliant results. I think that he is not aware of the big picture surrounding 9/11 (Fachidiot :mad:), but he is one of a handful of people on this forum whose integrity i take for granted.


Thank you. I mean that in all sincerity. I've also been on the lookout for a T-shirt that says "Fachidiot" on it, but haven't found one yet. :D

Your point?

I have a lot to say about NASA but I doubt Ryan wants to explain why NASA has ignored the moon for several decades.

Apparently his major interest these days is acting as an apologist for NIST.

Personally, I'd rather talk about NASA and and future moon landings.

MM

I could discuss NASA priorities, but this is way off-topic, and it would only be my opinion anyway. I've had those kinds of discussions in the "Science" subforum, several times, and I'm involved in one right now. But please note I am not in a policy-making position for NASA, nor would I present that in public here even if it was.

Regarding NIST, I don't "apologize" for anything. I've even produced my own criticism of it. It also has absolutely nothing to with my job, it's just a hobby. This should be obvious.

You still haven't found any errors in my position, nor have you substantiated your repeated attack that I argue from authority. Better get to work.

[jhunter1163]

R. Mackey doesn't need to appeal to authority. His work speaks for itself. No Twoofer has yet produced any significant criticism of his whitepaper. And if they did, he'd address it and either disprove it or incorporate it into his paper. That's what scientifically-inclined people do.

If R. Mackey (or Gravy, or any other leading debunker) posted something that I knew was wrong, and I could demonstrate just how and why it was wrong, I'd correct them in a minute. I'd do it politely, but I'd do it just the same. And you know what? They'd thank me for correcting them.

Dylan, on the other hand, bans those who criticize him until he's left with a few dozen hardcore followers and a few others who just wandered in off the street to see what the noise was all about. I don't shed a tear for him losing money.

[JMarshall]

Oh for crying out loud MM keep on the freaking topic and leave the personal jabs out of it! I haven't been here for long now and I am already tired of your looping rhetoric!

back on topic, I don't see much connection between his grandfather's ideologies and young Avery's endeavors. Case in point, military is a large tradition in my family, going back to the Civil War. My father was a SSgt in the US Army, after 8 years, he held me to a high standard, and I grew up hearing military stories from everyone in my extended family. After 6 years of military service I attained the highest rank of Corporal, my father, to this day will not let me forget I was only a Cpl. Our families do have some factors in who we become, but ultimately, we as people are never the same as our families.

[GreNME]

Are you a Bell puppet GreNME?

I suggest you form an a 'original' question if you have one?

If that's not what you do, then, as they like to say here in JREF, "carry on".

MM

I don't know what your problem is, nor do I care, but if all you can answer with is character attacks then all you're going to earn for yourself is the ignore button from other posters.

What I asked is what I asked. If you have such a problem with this place, what other place do you suggest? Are you only here to troll or are you actually engaging anyone in discussion or debate?

[Bell]

Excuse me.

I never suggested..or meant to suggest you and socks or puppets or sock puppetry had any familiarity.

Then what did you mean by asking GreNME if he is my puppet?

What other forum I prefer?

Somehow I missed that question?

Could you ask the question again so I can answer it in the proper context?

MM

It's in the same post you replied to accusing GreNME of being my puppet.

[Good Lt]

I assume you have comparable credentials in the profession of controlled demolitions Good Lt which qualifies you to make such a statement?

No?

I thought not.

Appeal to authority fallacy. But I'll bite.

There are many more people imminently qualified to make this professional determination that do NOT agree with this one individual.

That makes them right - strength in numbers, and all. Right?

I mean, if the MAJORITY of CD specialists believed as this one does, wouldn't that be a bit more widely reported?

Instead, you're forced to cling to the nonsensical opinions of a few individuals rather than relying on the expertise of a large plurality of individuals whose professional opinions you conveniently ignore.

Carry on.

[Childlike Empress]

Thank you. I mean that in all sincerity. I've also been on the lookout for a T-shirt that says "Fachidiot" on it, but haven't found one yet. :D


If the people populating my Ivory Tower would be a little more self-aware, it would be a great business plan starting to produce these shirts. But hey, i have to point you to your local print shop... :)

[Miragememories]

Thank you. I mean that in all sincerity. I've also been on the lookout for a T-shirt that says "Fachidiot" on it, but haven't found one yet. :D



I could discuss NASA priorities, but this is way off-topic, and it would only be my opinion anyway. I've had those kinds of discussions in the "Science" subforum, several times, and I'm involved in one right now. But please note I am not in a policy-making position for NASA, nor would I present that in public here even if it was.

Regarding NIST, I don't "apologize" for anything. I've even produced my own criticism of it. It also has absolutely nothing to with my job, it's just a hobby. This should be obvious.

You still haven't found any errors in my position, nor have you substantiated your repeated attack that I argue from authority. Better get to work.

Geez not another person who devotes themselves to explaining NIST as a hobby.

I've had enough issues with e^n over his participation in the 9/11 as strictly a hobby.

Ryan, I don't know what your speciality is but please focus on NASA and not NIST.

If NIST is as right as you seem to believe, they certainly don't need you to defend them.

NASA on the other hand would appear to need all the support thay can get these days.

I may sound facetious and unquestionably I am at times, but NASA is a subject I've always held close to my heart, ever since Kennedy announced his intention to put a man on the moon.

Come on man. Focus on that dream and don't get sidetracked by all this 9/11 garbage unless you really relish wading through the quagmire?

MM

[Good Lt]

Come on man. Focus on that dream and don't get sidetracked by all this 9/11 garbage unless you really relish wading through the quagmire?

The only quagmire being witnessed here is the tortuous trail of inanity pilfered by the Troofer contingent in their endless quest to come to something resembling a coherent point.

[GreNME]

I may sound facetious and unquestionably I am at times, but NASA is a subject I've always held close to my heart, ever since Kennedy announced his intention to put a man on the moon.

Since we're already bouncing all over the place, exactly why do you feel Kennedy wanted to beat the USSR to the moon? Do you think you can explain the obvious tactical benefit this goal was meant to be?

[R.Mackey]

Geez not another person who devotes themselves to explaining NIST as a hobby.

I've had enough issues with e^n over his participation in the 9/11 as strictly a hobby.

Ryan, I don't know what your speciality is but please focus on NASA and not NIST.

If NIST is as right as you seem to believe, they certainly don't need you to defend them.

NASA on the other hand would appear to need all the support thay can get these days.

I may sound facetious and unquestionably I am at times, but NASA is a subject I've always held close to my heart, ever since Kennedy announced his intention to put a man on the moon.

Come on man. Focus on that dream and don't get sidetracked by all this 9/11 garbage unless you really relish wading through the quagmire?

MM

I'm not "defending" NIST. I'm explaining NIST.

As you exemplify, there are a great many people who think they understand it, don't, and use that misunderstanding as a basis to propagate absurd beliefs.

One more time, you're not attacking my arguments. You were attacking me on the basis of who I am. Now you're trying to persuade me from arguing at all. One is left to wonder just how fragile your position is.

[fitzgibbon]

I'll just apologise to the board on behalf of Canadians past, present and future for the behaviour of Miragememories (that is assuming s/he actually is a Canuck [though it's one of those things in life that one who isn't generally doesn't claim]).

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread

[Bell]

Geez not another person who devotes themselves to explaining NIST as a hobby.

Are you making a career out of gospeling the 9/11 inside job theory?

I've had enough issues with e^n over his participation in the 9/11 as strictly a hobby.

Why are your issues Mackey's problem?

Ryan, I don't know what your speciality is but please focus on NASA and not NIST.

What is your speciality (if any), and why don't you stick to that?

If NIST is as right as you seem to believe, they certainly don't need you to defend them.

Do you think NIST is right? Yes or no? If no, why do you not need members to counter your arguments?

NASA on the other hand would appear to need all the support thay can get these days.

Are you suggesting Mackey isn't doing his job properly?

I may sound facetious and unquestionably I am at times, but NASA is a subject I've always held close to my heart, ever since Kennedy announced his intention to put a man on the moon.

Come on man. Focus on that dream and don't get sidetracked by all this 9/11 garbage unless you really relish wading through the quagmire?

MM

By dream, are you talking about Kennedy's announcement? Didn't that dream get fullfilled in 1969?

[Good Lt]

Are you making a career out of gospeling the 9/11 inside job theory?

He's just doing it as a hobby. :)

[Bell]

I'll just apologise to the board on behalf of Canadians past, present and future for the behaviour of Miragememories (that is assuming s/he actually is a Canuck [though it's one of those things in life that one who isn't generally doesn't claim]).

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread

Thank you for that. I was contemplating breaking bonds with my friend (who has a Canadian girlfriend).

[Hyperviolet]

Your point?

I have a lot to say about NASA but I doubt Ryan wants to explain why NASA has ignored the moon for several decades.

Apparently his major interest these days is acting as an apologist for NIST.

Personally, I'd rather talk about NASA and and future moon landings.

MM

My point is exactly what i wrote.
Did you miss it?

[Jonnyclueless]

Is Mirage not in breach of 100 or so membership violations in this thread alone. His sole purpose here is simply to launch personal attacks on others to make up for his complete inability to support his own statements and contradictions.

[R.Mackey]

If the people populating my Ivory Tower would be a little more self-aware, it would be a great business plan starting to produce these shirts. But hey, i have to point you to your local print shop... :)

;) I should mention that I do have a T-shirt that says "übergeek" on it... and yes, I know that's not proper German. Drives my wife nuts.

[Miragememories]

R. Mackey doesn't need to appeal to authority. His work speaks for itself. No Twoofer has yet produced any significant criticism of his whitepaper. And if they did, he'd address it and either disprove it or incorporate it into his paper. That's what scientifically-inclined people do.

If R. Mackey (or Gravy, or any other leading debunker) posted something that I knew was wrong, and I could demonstrate just how and why it was wrong, I'd correct them in a minute. I'd do it politely, but I'd do it just the same. And you know what? They'd thank me for correcting them.

Dylan, on the other hand, bans those who criticize him until he's left with a few dozen hardcore followers and a few others who just wandered in off the street to see what the noise was all about. I don't shed a tear for him losing money.

I have yet to see someone banned from the Loose Change Forum who didn't work for it.

MM

[Childlike Empress]

;) I should mention that I do have a T-shirt that says "übergeek" on it... and yes, I know that's not proper German. Drives my wife nuts.


Well, that "über"-syllable isn't really used in german, it's too nazi-like to be politically correct, but i recommend asking your wife if a Pappnase-shirt would be appropriate... ;D

[Miragememories]

You still haven't found any errors in my position, nor have you substantiated your repeated attack that I argue from authority. Better get to work.

You are correct in that I have found no errors that you are willing to acknowledge.

In a legal sense, NIST has been very careful in their presentation and it is indeed quite remarkable what they have gotten away with in their 10,000 page publication.

They are correct only in the sense that they have carefully made sure that they explain all the assumptions they use to validate their proofs.

You can argue any theory if you only have to validate reasonable doubt.

NIST let themselves off the hook by not attempting to explain logically what was supposed to occur once the 'table was set' for collapse initiation.

I keep coming back to WTC1 having something like 15 floors above 90 floors and having to accept NIST's premise that somehow those 15 floors dropped as a single component on the undamaged 90 floors below and completely overwhelmed them.

It still amazes me how an obviously intelligent man such as yourself Ryan can accept the idea that supporting columns could fail in such rapid fashion as to allow for a unanimous all inclusive drop at the speed necessary to overwhelm that structure?

To be able to sleep at night without harboring any doubts must be quite the trick?

Of course if one is convinced that doing so serves the greater good, than I guess I understand where you are coming from, and it all begins to make sense.

For your sake man, I hope you have made the right choice.

MM

[thaiboxerken]

I have yet to see someone banned from the Loose Change Forum who didn't work for it.

MM

If by "work for it" you mean "present an absolute refutation of the absurd arguments used by the Troofers" then I will agree.

[Miragememories]

Is Mirage not in breach of 100 or so membership violations in this thread alone. His sole purpose here is simply to launch personal attacks on others to make up for his complete inability to support his own statements and contradictions.

Difficult as it is to navigate the minefield of cryptic rules here in JREF, I fail to see which ones I've violated let alone the 100 you accuse me of Jonnyclueless?

MM

[thaiboxerken]

It still amazes me how an obviously intelligent man such as yourself Ryan can accept the idea that supporting columns could fail in such rapid fashion as to allow for a unanimous all inclusive drop at the speed necessary to overwhelm that structure?

Clearly, you really don't understand the facts or physics. The science supports the conclusions. You just don't understand the science. That's your failing.

[qarnos]

Today Dylan's Mama posted this (http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=19383&view=findpost&p=14699010) on LCF:




She is refering to a work by some William L. Avery, apparently Dylans Grandpa: Dispatch of Merchants (http://famguardian.org/Subjects/Taxes/Articles/DispatchOfMerchants.htm)

The guy isn't in it for the money. Even without this bit of information it was obvious to me that he wasn't. He may suffer from some kind of messiah complex but money is surely not the force that motivates Dylan Avery.

I beg to differ. (http://lc911.com/lc911/catalog/)

[R.Mackey]

It still amazes me how an obviously intelligent man such as yourself Ryan can accept the idea that supporting columns could fail in such rapid fashion as to allow for a unanimous all inclusive drop at the speed necessary to overwhelm that structure?

Failing "in such a rapid fashion" is the expected behavior. Note that I didn't say "simultaneously," since this is not required, and the video shows how instability progresses through the structure in a gradual fashion, but taking less than a fraction of a second.

One more time, steel only deflects a few percent before it fails. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose the upper block would gradually sag onto the lower structure. This is fantasy. Furthermore, the video shows how it didn't happen, so you don't even have to imagine it.


To be able to sleep at night without harboring any doubts must be quite the trick?

Of course if one is convinced that doing so serves the greater good, than I guess I understand where you are coming from, and it all begins to make sense.

For your sake man, I hope you have made the right choice.

If I'm wrong, then show me where I'm wrong. Nobody has. Makes it quite easy to "sleep at night" when there's no contest.

And yes, I do believe that education "serves the greater good." It's unfortunate that so many seem impervious to it, that's all.

[JEROME DA GNOME]

This thread confirms my disregard for the CT section of this forum.

Simple math seems difficult. (the fact that many will not understand the meaning and context of this sentence is another confirmation.)

[Miragememories]

Your point?

I have a lot to say about NASA but I doubt Ryan wants to explain why NASA has ignored the moon for several decades.

Apparently his major interest these days is acting as an apologist for NIST.

Personally, I'd rather talk about NASA and and future moon landings.

MM

Stop making personal attacks. If you cannot debate the topic and not the person, then do not post. If you continue to make posts that are personal attacks and off-topic you will be suspended.

I'm sorry Lisa.

I was responding to the post and not the thread.

If I was wrong in doing so, than the poster was wrong in raising an issue that was not in context with the thread.

It gets very confusing trying to understand correct behavior when the rules seem to be administered with no consistency.

Regards,
MM

[thaiboxerken]

Failing "in such a rapid fashion" is the expected behavior. Note that I didn't say "simultaneously," since this is not required, and the video shows how instability progresses through the structure in a gradual fashion, but taking less than a fraction of a second.

One more time, steel only deflects a few percent before it fails. There is no reason whatsoever to suppose the upper block would gradually sag onto the lower structure. This is fantasy. Furthermore, the....

What I find interesting is that if the LC'ers physics were correct, even controlled demolitions would never happen without a cubic butt-ton of explosives that incinerate every piece of structure there is in the building.

[kookbreaker]

If by "work for it" you mean "present an absolute refutation of the absurd arguments used by the Troofers" then I will agree.

The above may be shortened to 'showed up' to keep things on the LCF intellectual level.

[Jonnyclueless]

Difficult as it is to navigate the minefield of cryptic rules here in JREF, I fail to see which ones I've violated let alone the 100 you accuse me of Jonnyclueless?

MM


You failing to see something? Well isn't that a surprise!

[Unsecured Coins]

I figured it out!

Dylly said LCFC cost a quarter million to make, and that he plans to distribute it for free after his investors get their money back. Anyone find it odd that he chose the number 250 for a signed copy of the Fail Cut? He planned on selling a quick 1,000 copies of that to clear that out of the way, cause you know he doesn't want Alex Jones in the poor house.

Although, now that Korey's got 3 hots and a cot, there is an open room at Casa De Dylan...

[1337m4n]

It gets very confusing trying to understand correct behavior when the rules seem to be administered with no consistency.



They are administered with plenty of consistency. You have spent this entire thread making personal attacks against Mackey.

Rule 12 of your Membership Agreement clearly states, "Attack the argument, not the arguer".

Show me where in this thread you have attacked Mackey's argument.

[Comsat Angel]

I've seen LCFC on offer on Limewire, which will cut into Dylan's profits. Also, whilst trawling e-bay, I noticed a couple of copies of LC2 going for a couple of quid - without any takers!

[qarnos]

I've seen LCFC on offer on Limewire, which will cut into Dylan's profits. Also, whilst trawling e-bay, I noticed a couple of copies of LC2 going for a couple of quid - without any takers!

I just found this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/LOOSE-CHANGE-FINAL-CUT-BRAND-NEW-FACTORY-SEALED_W0QQitemZ110196576758QQihZ001QQcategoryZ617 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Check out the description (yes, all in caps):

THIS IS BRAND NEW FACTORY SEALED PERFECT BOOKEND FOR ALEX JONE'S ENDGAME. COMES OUT 11/19 ITS A PRE-ORDER USUALLY SELLS FOR
29.99 ON SOME SITES IF NOT MORE PERFECT GIFT,INSIGHTFUL AND FULL OF INFORMATION, GREAT GIFT IDEA OR TO SPREAD THE WORD. FAST SHIPPING
SPREAD THE WORD,TELL YOUR FELLOW PERSON, GREAT FOR EDUCATION PURPOSE OR FOR COLLEGE ASSIGMENTS

College assigments? I'll be sure to check it out as soon as I've done my homwork.

Remember! Spread the word! Just give me money when you do so.

[jhunter1163]

LC:FC is still up on Google Video. Am I crazy or was it put there by Prisonplanet?

ETA: In almost two weeks up, 14,166 views. *snickers*

[Gravy]

LC:FC is still up on Google Video. Am I crazy or was it put there by Prisonplanet?

ETA: In almost two weeks up, 14,166 views. *snickers*This version (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6499230265406230477) has been up since 11/11. Is says 'Official," and the uploader is "Louder Than Words," but that's bogus: they didn't release a free version. This one's been seen 11,739 times.

[jhunter1163]

So, less than 26,000 views in two weeks. Didn't the original LC get into the millions? And a lot of the views were probably debunkers to boot.

The LC phenomenon, as if we needed any more confirmation, is dead.

[Undesired Walrus]

As much as I don't feel much sympathy for L Ron Avery, I really don't think he is in this for the dollars.

I also recently found out that he never knew his father, and neither did I, so I suddenly feel a strange but unappealing bond with the guy.

[Undesired Walrus]

I've seen LCFC on offer on Limewire

Knowing Limewire, It's probably child pornography.

[bjb]

Unfortunately, the bigotry and the rhetoric took hold, and yet again I was left wondering, why, out of thousands of NASA engineers do we only have just one posting in this forum?

MM

Because I usually post in the General or Science section.

Anyway, a NASA engineer is not required to address most of the claims of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Overall, the conspiracies depend upon the failure to acquire a 5th grader's understanding of the laws of physics. Of course, an aerospace engineer's point of view is helpful when debunking the space-based directed energy weapon theories.

[OMGturt1es]

I have yet to see someone banned from the Loose Change Forum who didn't work for it.

MM

i've been banned 5+ times, and i've always been amazingly patient, respectful and polite. of course, i did argue against LC's assertions, which IS a bannable offense, stated officially or not.

[OMGturt1es]

This thread confirms my disregard for the CT section of this forum.

Simple math seems difficult. (the fact that many will not understand the meaning and context of this sentence is another confirmation.)

because psychic abilities don't exist, so i've no way to read your mind? i could interpret your statements as rejection of either position, depending on the assumptions i make, which i am forced to make only because you've seen fit to write such a cryptic message. if you were to bother posting, why were you apparently unwilling to clearly state your thoughts? i don't understand your motivations here...

[OMGturt1es]

Knowing Limewire, It's probably child pornography.

just for the record, it took an awful lot of effort not to make some amazingly inappropriate comment here. i think i deserve an award.

[uk_dave]

just for the record, it took an awful lot of effort not to make some amazingly inappropriate comment here. i think i deserve an award.

The 'Loose Change' box set is on it's way. :D

[defaultdotxbe]

Knowing Limewire, It's probably child pornography.
id say its more likely to be a virus disguised as child pornography (disguised as LCFC)

[Undesired Walrus]

I used Limewire once to download 'Young Dr Frankenstein'.

Did. Looked at what I'd downloaded. Not Young Dr Frankenstein. Three days later got rid of my computer and make sure the hard drive was destroyed. True story.