Covert Hypnosis-- Derren Brown

[articulett]

I don't know if this link will work after a few days, but I thought it was interesting... It purports to show Derren Brown using covert hypnosis, and I was wondering what my skeptic friends thought of it.

http://hypnosiscontrol.com/

[kosai]

I don't know if this link will work after a few days, but I thought it was interesting... It purports to show Derren Brown using covert hypnosis, and I was wondering what my skeptic friends thought of it.

http://hypnosiscontrol.com/

I saw this on Digg today too with people buying it hook, line and sinker... Derren is a magician and says a lot of things I know he himself doesn't believe. This is along those lines. I doubt hypnosis, much less a covert one.

[articulett]

I saw this on Digg today too with people buying it hook, line and sinker... Derren is a magician and says a lot of things I know he himself doesn't believe. This is along those lines. I doubt hypnosis, much less a covert one.

So you think the trick was done differently than the article suggests?

[kosai]

If you have a true interest in this subject I'd refer you to "Pure Effect" or "Absolute Magic", both magic instructional books by Derren Brown which teach methods of misdirection to create a "dual reality" for the audience and the volunteer to create an illusion of hypnosis/NLP/other nonsense as the cause.

[tkingdoll]

Ho hum. I wish I had a pound for everyone who falls for the phoney psychology explanations.

I've written on this subject too much to be bothered at 1:30am but tomorrow I'll dig up some earlier posts which explain.

[articulett]

If you have a true interest in this subject I'd refer you to "Pure Effect" or "Absolute Magic", both magic instructional books by Derren Brown which teach methods of misdirection to create a "dual reality" for the audience and the volunteer to create an illusion of hypnosis/NLP/other nonsense as the cause.

I have his book, "Tricks of the Mind"...
I know that he is an illusionist... but I'm curious to know how the explanation of the trick is wrong... and why the author would perceive it as right. That is, I wonder if Derren or anybody else could do the trick as it was suggested it was done and if they could get such "amazing results" a large percentage of the time... Of course, we don't know the number of failures... but I'm curious regarding the method... it seems in line with some studies in Malcolm Gladwell's book, Blink regarding how humans are influenced by things they are not aware of. I didn't think Gladwell's book was particularly scientific... but I think there is increasing evidence that humans can be influenced by things they are unaware of in some interesting ways. For example, http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press.office/press.release/content.phtml?ref=1151491586
(Big Brother' eyes encourage honesty, study shows)

[articulett]

Ho hum. I wish I had a pound for everyone who falls for the phoney psychology explanations.

I've written on this subject too much to be bothered at 1:30am but tomorrow I'll dig up some earlier posts which explain.

Thanks... I'm interested in how it's done, of course, but what I'm really interested in is the notion that people can be influenced subliminally and to what degree and in what manner. Could the trick work as suggested? When you capitalize on known human tendencies or irrationalities (like Sylvia Browne does, for example) could you induce them to think they've guessed a card you have?

Regarding the link to the study about the "eyes" above. Do you think this study has validity? Why or why not? Isn't that the same thing the article is suggesting regarding Derren Browne getting someone to guess his card. I think Darren Browne suggests that he's sending the guy the card telepathically or something... he doesn't draw attention to the supposed gestures influencing the card choice. Could this work?

[kosai]

I would regard "Tricks of the Mind" as a book written "in-character" for Derren. It was meant to be mass-media and therefore contains little real magic or psychology. His magic books though to have a great deal of merit.

[tkingdoll]

Thanks... I'm interested in how it's done, of course, but what I'm really interested in is the notion that people can be influenced subliminally and to what degree and in what manner. Could the trick work as suggested? When you capitalize on known human tendencies or irrationalities (like Sylvia Browne does, for example) could you induce them to think they've guessed a card you have?

Regarding the link to the study about the "eyes" above. Do you think this study has validity? Why or why not? Isn't that the same thing the article is suggesting regarding Derren Browne getting someone to guess his card. I think Darren Browne suggests that he's sending the guy the card telepathically or something... he doesn't draw attention to the supposed gestures influencing the card choice. Could this work?

Here's one post which covers some of your questions:

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21025&postcount=15

including You seem to have confused misdirection with method. You can use little psychological tricks for misdirection, but you cannot use them as a method. Palming a card is a method. Distracting someone while you do it is the misdirection. Psychology is no use to you for actually, physically, palming the card, but it's handy for making sure no-one sees you do it.




But the short answer is: not for the purposes of performing a magic trick, no, because the effect as described in the eyes experiment is not absolute. Methods which only work sometimes are not worth the risk, generally.

I will comment on the study tomorrow, I am familiar with it and do have stuff to say but in general, no, it's not the same as Derren's trick.

[articulett]

Here's one post which covers some of your questions:

http://www.ukskeptics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21025&postcount=15

including




But the short answer is: not for the purposes of performing a magic trick, no, because the effect as described in the eyes experiment is not absolute. Methods which only work sometimes are not worth the risk, generally.

I will comment on the study tomorrow, I am familiar with it and do have stuff to say but in general, no, it's not the same as Derren's trick.

Cool. While subliminal influences(the eyes) or inattention blindness are real phenomena, I didn't think that anyone could accurately make people "guess cards"... I don't doubt that there is misdirection... but I was curious if it was possible to subliminally influence someone in such a manner... and it appears, the answer is "no". However, people who believe that one can do so, will look for the hidden things Darren did to supposedly influence that choice--hence the link's conclusions, right? But in fact, the trick was done some other down and dirty way while the implication was that Derren controlled the guy in some manner with his mind. There is a big difference from people as a group being swayed to be more honest and a single person being subliminally influence to specifically guess a card you have in your pocket.

[GeeMack]

My browser isn't set for viewing videos, so I didn't watch the performance in the link from the OP. But, I have been a semiprofessional magician for over thirty years and I can tell you this...

Even if covert hypnosis has any validity (and I don't believe it does), even if it could generate correct results 95% of the time (and I can't imagine how it would), a professional magician would use another method, one which is far more likely to be successful.

No professional magician will use a difficult method to achieve a 95% success rate if a simpler method will work every time. Practicing to surreptitiously wave ones finger around in the shape of a number would require a ridiculous investment of time and effort. Without going into detail, there are reasonably simple methods for doing the trick being described from the video, virtually foolproof, nearly infallible.

My assessment: Covert hypnosis is bogus.

[articulett]

Actually he holds up 7 fingers... and makes a gesture near his ear that looks like a 7 and he does make a motion like a beating heart in front of his heart... (the card is 7 of hearts) as a seeming part of his gesturing... but, like backward messages in music... this could all be interpreted after the fact... plus it is video... I don't know how many takes were done before there was a hit... But I agree that the scenario is very unlikely... The trick wasn't presented by Darren Browne as though he was doing NLP or covert hypnosis... at least I don't think it was. The complicated explanations for this probably simple trick is probably on par with the way people explain Pickover's ESP cards. http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp.html
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/esp4.html
http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/espnewcomments.html

Did you read the link about the eyes, geemack? Doesn't that describe a sort of covert hypnosis... or maybe a subliminal influence would be better terminology.

[David Wong]

I love what Darren Brown does. It's simple and yet so few magicians do it, which is create a second layer of deception. He does the trick, you're amazed, then he "tells you how the trick was done" and gives you a completely false - yet fascinating and plausible - explanation of how he did it.

It'd be like if I did the "saw the lady in half" trick, then told the audience that I accomplished it using a secret technology that transported the woman's bottom half through a wormhole, letting me physically separate it and then re-attach it by bringing it out of a state of quantum flux.

You've now amazed the audience twice. And Darren Brown does the same, making up these plausible-sounding (yet scientifically ridiculous) explanations for how he's able to manipulate minds or whatever, and it just hides the real (quite boring) method behind a second layer of deception.

It's great fun and great entertainment. But make no mistake, if his techniques were real (particiarly in the realm of mind control) they would have transformed society the world over.

[articulett]

I love what Darren Brown does. It's simple and yet so few magicians do it, which is create a second layer of deception. He does the trick, you're amazed, then he "tells you how the trick was done" and gives you a completely false - yet fascinating and plausible - explanation of how he did it.

It'd be like if I did the "saw the lady in half" trick, then told the audience that I accomplished it using a secret technology that transported the woman's bottom half through a wormhole, letting me physically separate it and then re-attach it by bringing it out of a state of quantum flux.

You've now amazed the audience twice. And Darren Brown does the same, making up these plausible-sounding (yet scientifically ridiculous) explanations for how he's able to manipulate minds or whatever, and it just hides the real (quite boring) method behind a second layer of deception.

It's great fun and great entertainment. But make no mistake, if his techniques were real (particiarly in the realm of mind control) they would have transformed society the world over.

Yes. I agree.