Why is there so much infighting among the Truth Movment?

[1337m4n]

Anyone who follows the drama between the Pilots for Truth group and the Loose Change group will know what I'm talking about. They're always trying to raid each other's forums, and Loose Change and Pilots for Truth have each banned the leading members of the other from their forums.

It seems like Truthers hate each other as much as--if not even more--than they hate us. No-planers are treated like dirt at almost every CT site you go to (and are banned from both LCF and P4T). Believers in the Illuminati/NWO are deemed "disinfo" by those who think it was just Bush and his administration. LIHOP and MIHOP theorists generally don't get along. Those who suspect Israeli involvement are branded as anti-Semites by the rest of the Truthers. Space-beamers are considered to be nutjobs by people who hold equally ridiculous theories (for instance, holographic planes).

The worst drama occurs between people with differing views on the Pentagon. The Loose Change crew tends to be split between a cruise missile or a real airliner. The Pilots for Truth crew hold on to their magical flyover theory. If you've ever seen these two sides debate...it's simply incredible. They are easily more hostile to each other than they are to us. They actively believe each other to be liars and/or disinfo, and are sometimes willing to make up evidence not to use against us, but to use against each other.

I also have to laugh at Alex Jones's rantings. Jones accuses people who promote "ridiculous" (in other words, AJ doesn't agree with) theories as being "disinfo": making up stupid theories in order to make the Truth Movement look bad. However, many at Loose Change and other groups think that Alex Jones is the disinfo! (here's an example: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread270460/pg1)

I really do want to know: what gives? They all have the same (stated) goal: they all (state that they) want a new, independent 9/11 investigation. Why is there a need to fight over that? Regardless of what one believes about 9/11, wouldn't a new investigation (allegedly) clear everything up once and for all? So how is it productive for them to fight with each other and accuse one another of "disinfo"?

I really want to know how any of them can think it's productive. Perhaps one of our resident Truthers can enlighten me?

[Unsecured Coins]

if I had to guess, I'd say both of them want to be "the ONE" that breaks open this case and blows the lid off the whole thing. Competition sucks, don't it?

[Totovader]

By rejecting the methods of telling fact from fiction, they are unable to tell the difference between friend or charlatan.

The same thing happens when a priest has to inform the media that the guy who says he talks to God is "just crazy".

[R.Mackey]

The obvious answer why there's more apparent animosity between Truth Movement factions and, say, them vs. us, is simple:

To them, it's important.

We see this as delusion, charlatanery, and ignorance. To them, it's a desperate struggle for civilization.

Often I'm surprised that we spend as much effort on them as we do as it is.

[JamesB]

As I have said before, the truthers seem to think we are living in "1984", but in reality they are living in "Animal Farm".

[NikZeta302]

As I have said before, the truthers seem to think we are living in "1984", but in reality they are living in "Animal Farm".

I see them living more in "Lord of the Flies".

[NickUK]

I think it's been a gradual descent into the infighting we now see - certainly when I first signed up here there was far more cohesion in their 'movement' than there is now. My take on it is that nothing's happened, nothing's changed, people aren't - despite truther's protestations to the contrary - 'waking up'. It's easier to think that this is because of disinfo agents promoting theories other than the ones you hold than to accept, even at a skin deep level and without admitting it to anyone else, that the overall message is crap.

[NikZeta302]

By rejecting the methods of telling fact from fiction, they are unable to tell the difference between friend or charlatan.

The same thing happens when a priest has to inform the media that the guy who says he talks to God is "just crazy".

Does that make the "Holograms+Death rays from Outer Space" people Lutherans and the "Windowless airplanes+controlled demolition" Catholics?

[Bobert]

Speaking of CIT...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=738504907226237721

[Horatius]

Here's my take on the issue.


http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2007/11/19/try-it-sometime-its-harder-than-it-looks.png

[chillzero]

Here's my take on the issue.


http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/horatius/strip/2007/11/19/try-it-sometime-its-harder-than-it-looks.png

You got my hair right and everything!!

:D

[SDC]

Extreme factionalism is a common element in cult-like extremist groups; the funniest reference being the one from Life of Brian (Judaean People's Front...), so funny because it is so accurate.

It also relates to a common saying about university politics, particularly the eternal combat among faculty members: it's so vicious because so little is at stake.

[WilliamSeger]

I agree that it's for the same reason that religious cults splinter: no real rational basis for any version of the dogma and doctrine, and paranoia that other versions are the work of the devil.

[Max Photon]

* * *

Why is there so much infighting among members of the Truth Movement?


A significant portion of the infighting among members of the Truth Movement is the direct result of the fact that what happened on 911 is - by design - a multi-valued ambiguous figure. (Any decent MIHOP model had better predict this.)

Ambiguous figures have more than one answer that fits the evidence perfectly.

Here is a beautiful example (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3164060#post3164060) of a two-valued ambiguous figure.

911 ambiguity was and is engineered by the MILDEC team on purpose. The function of the ambiguity is exactly to create infighting, confusion, resistance, waste. The ambiguity serves as a delay, as a cloaking device, as a dynamo of dynamic stabilization, and - most importantly - as a shield of plausible deniability.


Max

* * *

[bonavada]

i think it also has much to do with ....vested interest. you will of course have noticed that the more prominent passengers on the "twoof train" all promote themselves and their beliefs with books, dvds and much other merchandise. the opposing beliefs such as no planes vs drones etc etc cancel each other out. so the parties on either side must protect the invested intellectual (i use that term hesitantly btw) capital by all means needed. i think most of the time it's as simple and as mundane as that.

BV

[uk_dave]

911 ambiguity was and is engineered by the MILDEC team on purpose. The function of the ambiguity is exactly to create infighting, confusion, resistance, waste. The ambiguity serves as a delay, as a cloaking device, as a dynamo of dynamic stabilization, and - most importantly - as a shield of plausible deniability.


It's always nice to be able to blame someone else for confusion, waste, instability and ignorance.

[16.5]

Some good thoughtful answers here.

I was going to say because most of the Troothers are jerks.

[twinstead]

It's always nice to be able to blame someone else for confusion, waste, instability and ignorance.

Yup. It's kind of a woo woo circuit breaker. It's the same tactic they use when they call us government shills, only directed at competing factions within their own movement.

COINTELLPRO. What else can it be? :rolleyes:

[Cuddles]

Anyone who follows the drama between the Pilots for Truth group and the Loose Change group will know what I'm talking about. They're always trying to raid each other's forums, and Loose Change and Pilots for Truth have each banned the leading members of the other from their forums.

The Judean People's Front? Splitters.

[Brainster]

There's an old joke about the rivalries in academia that the fighting is so bitter precisely because the stakes are so small. It's reminiscent of the pitched battles between the LaRouchees and the Communists back in the 1970s. Periodically the Troofers will go through a "big tent" phase where they try to make the pie bigger, but inevitably they go back to squabbling over who does the cutting. The arguments are made fiercer by the belief that people who stress different parts of the conspiracy are not just wrong (and/or nuts); they are government agents intended to disrupt the movement.

[Max Photon]

* * *

The Judean People's Front? Splitters.


My favorite movie - ever - ever.

[Good Lt]

There's an old joke about the rivalries in academia that the fighting is so bitter precisely because the stakes are so small. It's reminiscent of the pitched battles between the LaRouchees and the Communists back in the 1970s. Periodically the Troofers will go through a "big tent" phase where they try to make the pie bigger, but inevitably they go back to squabbling over who does the cutting. The arguments are made fiercer by the belief that people who stress different parts of the conspiracy are not just wrong (and/or nuts); they are government agents intended to disrupt the movement.
It's all so deliciously entertaining.

[danielk]

I think we should cut them some slack. If nothing else, the infighting means they actually realize that their many "theories" are mutually exclusive. For some at least, this is probably a step forward. Now they only need to extent the use of logic right down to the fine details of their hypotheses, and we're set.

[Totovader]

The fact that it's infighting instead of criticism and academic discussion should also be a major indicator to these folks that they're off base... if they were rational folk, that is...

[1337m4n]

* * *

Why is there so much infighting among members of the Truth Movement?


A significant portion of the infighting among members of the Truth Movement is the direct result of the fact that what happened on 911 is - by design - a multi-valued ambiguous figure. (Any decent MIHOP model had better predict this.)

Ambiguous figures have more than one answer that fits the evidence perfectly.

Here is a beautiful example (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=3164060#post3164060) of a two-valued ambiguous figure.

911 ambiguity was and is engineered by the MILDEC team on purpose. The function of the ambiguity is exactly to create infighting, confusion, resistance, waste. The ambiguity serves as a delay, as a cloaking device, as a dynamo of dynamic stabilization, and - most importantly - as a shield of plausible deniability.


Max

* * *

Thanks for the idea, but I'm not so much asking why there are different theories on 9/11. I'm asking why the fact that there are different theories means they have to fight about it with such animosity. Why can't they debate each other with civility?

[1337m4n]

if I had to guess, I'd say both of them want to be "the ONE" that breaks open this case and blows the lid off the whole thing. Competition sucks, don't it?

Come to think of it, that's not a bad explanation. If, for instance, it turned out that the information in "The PentaCON" (God forbid) is what finally warranted people to start a new investigation, CIT would probably get far more credit than everyone else.

(Assuming that the conspiracy is true.)

[CHF]

The twoof movement is basically a popularity contest between single white males. Each one wants to be the hero, the case-cracker, the one who will forever be remembered as the kid who exposed the greatest conspiracy in history.

The only way to get attention in such a situation is to come up with something new and more amazing than the last guy.

[1337m4n]

The only way to get attention in such a situation is to some up with something new and more amazing than the last guy.

I guess that would explain the holographic planes/missiles with cloaking devices/death rays from outer space theories.

[Unsecured Coins]

I guess that would explain the holographic planes/missiles with cloaking devices/death rays from outer space theories.


Hey, don't look at me. Mongo only pawn in game of life.

[Jonnyclueless]

Last one to save the world from evil tyranny is a rotten egg!!