Rodney's Best Case for Psychic Help to Police

[Garrette]

I hope a lot of people read this, but the end is addressed specifically to Rodney.

This thread is a spin off of this one (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=91501&highlight=Pratt)that started about self-proclaimed psychic Norman Pratt.

It evolved into a thread about the value of psychics in police cases with Rodney taking the lead in support of psychics. After a lot of going round the mulberry bush, Rodney was asked to provide what he considered the best case of a psychic (any psychic) solving a case the police could not have solved without them. In response, he said the cases involving Nancy Orlen Weber (http://www.nancyorlenweber.com/)in Mount Olive, New Jersey, were the best.

It was pointed out that these cases, even as presented by Rodney and Ms. Weber, do not comprise a psychic actually solving a case but—at best—a psychic providing information apparently unavailable to the psychic through mundane means. Rodney agreed, and, if I remember correctly, also provided a different instance of a psychic actually solving a case.

I left the second case to someone else but said I would investigate the Nancy Orlen Weber claims. I had already done some preliminary research into them based on a debate with Rodney some time previously.

On this page (http://www.nancyorlenweber.com/references.html)of Ms. Weber’s website, you can read letters of support from polygrapher Jerry Lewis and former Detective Ross English. Rodney had previously exchanged letters (emails?) with Mr. Lewis and provided that exchange as evidence in support of Ms. Weber. My take is that Mr. Lewis was long on claims and short on evidence.

I tracked down Ross English at his new position as head of his own private detective agency in North Carolina and spoke with him over the phone. In response to my request for specific supporting evidence in regard to Ms. Weber’s involvement in the Mount Olive cases, Mr. English got very short and refused to discuss anything with me without written permission from Ms. Weber. Ms. Weber has failed to respond to all my attempts to contact her.

I also found reason to believe (but not decisively conclude) that Ms. Weber and Mr. English had/have a strong personal relationship, possibly even marriage. Ms. Weber’s own website says she travels to North Carolina frequently.

I submitted an Official Public Records Act request for information to the Mount Olive Police Department. Actually, I submitted several, one for each of the cases with which Ms. Weber was allegedly involved. It has taken since early September to get a substantive response, but one finally arrived via email yesterday. I copy it here in full, minus my own last name and Officer Cordileone’s contact information (though that is easily obtained):

Mr. xxxx,

I was able to find some information on the Mucio case, I need to confirm with our town attorneys that I can provide you with the information in the case. as for the other requests, I need more detail on the information you are looking for. Our card file system, doesn’t indicate that she was involved in any of the cases you’re requesting. More specifics (i.e. dates and times, others involved) would help me to locate anything. I’m sorry I don’t have any real good news at this time, hopefully with additional information I can be of more service. I appreciate you patience with the request. Have a Happy Thanksgiving.

Respectfully,

Mike
Ofc. Mike Cordileone
Mt. Olive Twp PoliceThe Muscio case he is referring to is described in this p (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=2955608&postcount=251)ost of Rodney’s from the original thread.

So, Rodney, it is back to you. I’ll wait for the town attorney’s take on the Muscio case, but I will not pursue the other cases you threw out there until you get more details. You said these are the best cases. Then you should have at least the dates, times, others involved. So far no one—not you, Weber, Lewis, or English—has provided even the year of these crimes. Until you can get them, then I decisively conclude that these claims of Weber’s substantive involvement are lies. And I choose that word deliberately.

[Kell]

Bravo, sir, good work.

I decisively conclude that these claims of Weber’s substantive involvement are lies. And I choose that word deliberately.

Yes indeed. I think that too often the credulous, the irrational, the purporters of such phenomena, are allowed to skulk in the murk of obfuscation and convenient "can't prove a negative" uncertainty when their contribution actually reeks of dishonesty. To espouse such certainty when investigation like this shows there is not - nor was there ever - any reason in the first place to even suspect the claim was true, is not just credulity or irrationality or heartfelt-yet-naive belief.
It is a lie, and should be called such.

[DrewD]

Sounds like the typical smoke and mirrors act that psychics/supporters often fall back on. Provide no evidence, make vague references and refuse to answer direct questions.

You would think that with such amazing abilities someone somewhere could provide some evidence that is not suspect. If this were the best evidence I had to offer to back a claim, I would really start to question my belief. But then again, I apply critical thinking to my opinions.

[Rodney]

So, Rodney, it is back to you. I’ll wait for the town attorney’s take on the Muscio case, but I will not pursue the other cases you threw out there until you get more details. You said these are the best cases. Then you should have at least the dates, times, others involved. So far no one—not you, Weber, Lewis, or English—has provided even the year of these crimes. Until you can get them, then I decisively conclude that these claims of Weber’s substantive involvement are lies. And I choose that word deliberately.
The issue is whether Weber has provided the police information that she would not have had through normal (non-psychic) means. Both detectives Lewis and English say yes. And, if you want a third one, try Washington Township (New Jersey) detective Gary Micco. According to the May 4, 2006 Newark Star-Ledger:

"Washington Township police were in the midst of a missing child investigation in September 1985 when one of their detectives spoke to psychic Nancy Orlen Weber.

"Authorities had a suspect in the disappearance of 14-year-old Rachel Domas. But they were still puzzling through the details when Weber told them the girl was dead, the killer's first name, where he worked and that he had lazy eye.

"'Nancy didn't solve the case, but she was right on the money with all kinds of predictions,' said retired Washington Police detective Gary Micco, who worked on the case . . .

"When police were hunting for the killer, Michael Manfredonia, Weber described the area where she thought he was hiding and drew a sketch for police.

"Police caught Manfredonia when he returned home, but Micco later found where he had hidden in Chester, and it was just as Weber had described, he said. Manfredonia is serving a life sentence in New Jersey State Prison for murder, sexual assault and kidnapping, according to the Department of Corrections.

"'I'm a believer in Nancy,' Micco said."

[fls]

The issue is whether Weber has provided the police information that she would not have had through normal (non-psychic) means. Both detectives Lewis and English say yes. And, if you want a third one, try Washington Township (New Jersey) detective Gary Micco. According to the May 4, 2006 Newark Star-Ledger:

"Washington Township police were in the midst of a missing child investigation in September 1985 when one of their detectives spoke to psychic Nancy Orlen Weber.

"Authorities had a suspect in the disappearance of 14-year-old Rachel Domas. But they were still puzzling through the details when Weber told them the girl was dead, the killer's first name, where he worked and that he had lazy eye.

"'Nancy didn't solve the case, but she was right on the money with all kinds of predictions,' said retired Washington Police detective Gary Micco, who worked on the case . . .

"When police were hunting for the killer, Michael Manfredonia, Weber described the area where she thought he was hiding and drew a sketch for police.

"Police caught Manfredonia when he returned home, but Micco later found where he had hidden in Chester, and it was just as Weber had described, he said. Manfredonia is serving a life sentence in New Jersey State Prison for murder, sexual assault and kidnapping, according to the Department of Corrections.

"'I'm a believer in Nancy,' Micco said."

However, it is also clear that the average police officer makes the same mistakes as you and most other people when forming an opinion. And the description provided by Micco shows him making those mistakes, making his support worthless. The case was solved by normal police work. Weber told the police a bunch of stuff and after they already knew the answers they were able to select out bits and pieces of information to match to the case. It has not been demonstrated that this cannot happen through normal means, or that it is helpful.

Linda

[Garrette]

The issue is whether Weber has provided the police information that she would not have had through normal (non-psychic) means. Both detectives Lewis and English say yes. The issue is whether there is actual evidence to support the claims. Lewis and English offer nothing beyond their unsupported testimony. Lewis' claims in particular are of the type that would be reflected in the police reports, but the police reports apparently say no such information was provided, though we don't know about the Muscio case yet.


And, if you want a third one, I don't. You had your chance to provide the best cases. The best cases turn out not to have evidentiary value for Weber's claims, Lewis' claims, English's claims, or your claims.


But I take it that you have no further details regarding the other cases in Mount Olive. I like you Rodney, and I'm saying that sincerely, but this response makes me lose a lot of respect I've had for you, and I sincerely have had a lot.

I told Officer Cordileone that I would check for more details and asked him to give me until sometime next week. I will extend that same deadline to you. If you can come up with more details by the end of next week, I will forward them. If not, I will assume you have none and that your support of Weber's claims has been based on superficial research.

Sorry to be so blunt, but as I said, I like you, and I still have some respect for you. So blunt it is.

[Spektator]

Thank you, Garrette. I've gone the extra mile once or twice myself and realize how time-consuming that can be.

[Rodney]

The issue is whether there is actual evidence to support the claims. Lewis and English offer nothing beyond their unsupported testimony. Lewis' claims in particular are of the type that would be reflected in the police reports, but the police reports apparently say no such information was provided, though we don't know about the Muscio case yet.

I don't. You had your chance to provide the best cases. The best cases turn out not to have evidentiary value for Weber's claims, Lewis' claims, English's claims, or your claims.

But I take it that you have no further details regarding the other cases in Mount Olive. I like you Rodney, and I'm saying that sincerely, but this response makes me lose a lot of respect I've had for you, and I sincerely have had a lot.

I told Officer Cordileone that I would check for more details and asked him to give me until sometime next week. I will extend that same deadline to you. If you can come up with more details by the end of next week, I will forward them. If not, I will assume you have none and that your support of Weber's claims has been based on superficial research.

Sorry to be so blunt, but as I said, I like you, and I still have some respect for you. So blunt it is.
Garrette, old friend, you're moving the goalposts. Here was our earlier exchange:

Garrette: "Pick one, Rodney. Just pick the one case you think is the best example of a psychic detective using psychic means to solve a case.

"You present your evidence, and we'll (I'll?) evalute it.

"Just one, just the best. Is it Pratt? Is it Weber? Is it Martin?"

Me: "I would focus on the 1988 Nicholas Muscio case, which involved Nancy Weber."

Now, though, the "one case" has morphed into "other cases in Mount Olive." At the moment, I don't have any details on those, but I just gave you a new case in another New Jersey location, if you're interested in investigating it.

[Garrette]

Garrette, old friend, you're moving the goalposts. Here was our earlier exchange:

Garrette: "Pick one, Rodney. Just pick the one case you think is the best example of a psychic detective using psychic means to solve a case.

"You present your evidence, and we'll (I'll?) evalute it.

"Just one, just the best. Is it Pratt? Is it Weber? Is it Martin?"

Me: "I would focus on the 1988 Nicholas Muscio case, which involved Nancy Weber."

Now, though, the "one case" has morphed into "other cases in Mount Olive." At the moment, I don't have any details on those, but I just gave you a new case in another New Jersey location, if you're interested in investigating it.I said very clearly in my OP that:

I’ll wait for the town attorney’s take on the Muscio case,My references to the claims being lies was in clear reference to these other cases. But if you want to fault me for giving you a larger opportunity to prove your case than you afforded yourself, I shall learn my lesson and never do so again.

I still don't want another case, so keep Micco out of it.

So let's recap where we are with Muscio:

The claim:

Weber told the police that the killer had the initials N.M. She told them this months before the actual killer, who did indeed have these initials, was caught.


The evidence:

1. A polygrapher says a policeman told him this happened.

2. The email from Officer Cordileone strongly implies that Weber did have some link to the case.


The lack of evidence:

1. No name of the policeman mentioned by the polygrapher.

2. No dates from the polygrapher.

3. No information from Weber herself.

4. Nothing else. Nothing from the police stating that Weber provided the information. I am trying to imagine a reason why a psychic providing initials would be legally sensitive and the release of that fact require an attorney's review. Such a reason may exist, but I can't think of it.


And since I assume you have had no access to the information that the attorney will review, I am left to conclude that you consider something without corroboration to be an excellent example of psychic powers. Not just excellent, but the best.

[JoeTheJuggler]

And polygraph evidence is worth what?


By the way, I thought the issue was the claim that the psychic helped solved the case, NOT just that the psychic had information she couldn't have gotten through ordinary means.

Which is it? If it's the former, there's no evidence of that whatsoever. If the latter, there's an extremely weak case.

Even if the "N.M." business is a hit (i.e. not something provided after the fact), for instance, do we know that the psychic didn't offer a barrage of initials and other guesses such that a hit is no big deal? (I'm thinking of Sylvia Browne's Hornbeck reading, where believers still claim naming the murderer "Michael" is a hit because Hornbeck's abductor was Michael Devlin, despite the fact that nothing she said helped the investigation, and her overall characterization of the case was dead wrong.)

ETA: The burden of proof is on the claimant. If you've got nothing else Rodney, I'd have to conclude that the claim that Weber helped solve this case is unproven at best.

[Garrette]

And polygraph evidence is worth what?I was trying to avoid that line of argument. I agree polygraphy is bunk (speaking as one who used to believe in it and--to my eternal embarrassment--had it used on employees), but that doesn't mean all polygraphers are fools or creduloids regarding everything else.


By the way, I thought the issue was the claim that the psychic helped solved the case,That was the initial claim and request.


NOT just that the psychic had information she couldn't have gotten through ordinary means.Rodney provided this instead. I think he later provided a case in which the psychic claims to have solved the mystery, but I did not pursue that one.


Which is it? If it's the former, there's no evidence of that whatsoever. If the latter, there's an extremely weak case. Dead on.


Even if the "N.M." business is a hit (i.e. not something provided after the fact), for instance, do we know that the psychic didn't offer a barrage of initials and other guesses such that a hit is no big deal?Precisely. That's why seeing the actual records made at the time the psychic provided the initials is critical. If it turns out that Weber provided the initials among a bunch of other incorrect things, then there's no there there. If it turns out the report only lists the initials but the report was made after-the-fact when the real killer was already know then there is also no there there.

Alternately, it could show that Weber made no such revelation at all.


ETA: The burden of proof is on the claimant. If you've got nothing else Rodney, I'd have to conclude that the claim that Weber helped solve this case is unproven at best.He doesn't claim she helped solve it; only that she provided information she could not have learned through worldly means. But even that is unproven at best.

[RSLancastr]

Nice work, Garrette. Please keep us apprised.

...you can read letters of support from polygrapher Jerry Lewis and former Detective Ross English."Hey laaaady!!! With the talking, and the lying, and the needle moving...."

Sorry. The image was stuck in my head.

[Garrette]

Nice work, Garrette. Please keep us apprised.Thanks.

"Hey laaaady!!! With the talking, and the lying, and the needle moving...."Well done!

[JoeTheJuggler]

He doesn't claim she helped solve it; only that she provided information she could not have learned through worldly means. But even that is unproven at best.

Yes--even that much is unproven. (I was going to repeat what you said about the claim of helping the police being a lie.)

I'm a bit confused. Is there a different case that is Rodney's best case for a psychic helping the police?

Or has he given that up and now only claims that psychics can sometimes make guesses where one or two guesses might after the fact be shown to match info they wouldn't have known through ordinary means?

If so, what's the point? I can make a lot of guesses and probably get a few right--but if anyone actually used my guesses to investigate the case, not only would my input be unhelpful, it would actually obstruct the regular investigation by wasting time and resources.

BTW, hat's off to you, Garrette! I once tried calling a police department to verify a psychic help claim and ended up with nothing.

[Garrette]

I'm a bit confused. Is there a different case that is Rodney's best case for a psychic helping the police? See my next post for a recap of that exchange. Pay attention to who finally got Rodney to mention a case he was willing to hang his hat on.


BTW, hat's off to you, Garrette! I once tried calling a police department to verify a psychic help claim and ended up with nothing.Thanks. It is definitely an exercise in patience.

Oh, and thanks to an earlier comment from Spektator. I didn't mean to ignore you.

[Garrette]

Here’s the sequence of events:

First, I was looking for information on some Weber cases that had been discussed but not been put forth as the best evidence:Now I have to download the appropriate request form, fill it out by hand, and mail it hard copy. I have been cautioned that two things make it more difficult and more time-consuming to find the appropriate records:

1. Passage of time since the case.

2. Lack of specificity regarding the case.

Both of these apply to what I'm trying to find, so we'll see. Here's what I'm trying to find info on:

1. A rape-murder case that occurred in 1980 or before. The victim was found in a local lake. COD was "drowning and an injury to the head." Suspect eventually confessed to Detective English.

2. Burglary in which a rifle and other items were stolen (this may have occurred at Nancy Orlen Weber's home; it is unclear in the letter). 2 juveniles arrested when a warrant search produced the stolen rifle at their home.

3. Internal Affairs investigation headed by Detective English and assisted by county, state, and federal authorities resulted in "over 100 indictments."It is these cases to which Officer Cordileone is referring when he asks for more detail.


Ashles then challenged Rodney to find one psychic who had found three missing people over a span of years, to which Rodney replied:
It appears Annette Martin has already does that. And what is your specific protocol that would allow Martin or another psychic detective to win the million dollar prize?


To which I further replied: Rodney, in bringing up Annette Martin, you're throwing crap on the wall hoping something sticks and hoping that the critics get lost in a never-ending cycle of whack-a-psychic.

Let's cut to the chase:

1. Media accounts aren't anything more than a questionable starting point

2. Unofficial endorsements by individual police officers (or polygraphers) without corroborating evidence aren't anything more than a questionable starting point

3. The websites of self-proclaimed psychic detectives aren't anything more than a questionable starting point

If you want us to take you seriously, then do your work. Get the case files.

Pick one, Rodney. Just pick the one case you think is the best example of a psychic detective using psychic means to solve a case.

You present your evidence, and we'll (I'll?) evalute it.

Just one, just the best. Is it Pratt? Is it Weber? Is it Martin?


Rodney then posted this: I would focus on the 1988 Nicholas Muscio case, which involved Nancy Weber. According to an e-mail that former police detective and polygraph expert Jerry Lewis sent me: ---snip of Jerry Lewis email which is very similar to his testimonial on Weber’s website---


Bri then posted this: Rodney, I thought Pratt was your best example. So this case involving Weber is REALLY your best example, right? You're not just going to throw more against the wall later and see if they stick are you?

I'm sorry Rodney, but according to your story, and according to Nancy Weber's website, Weber did nothing to help the police solve the crime.


Rodney’s reply: It's not the best example of a psychic detective assisting the police in solving a case, but it is a good example of a psychic being on the money.


Bri made this prediction: I predict that as this example falls flat like the others, you'll soon throw out yet another example and hope that one sticks.


Rodney posted this (as part of a longer response to something specific of mine): to clarify my views on the Nicholas Muscio case, I think it's one of the best -- if not the best -- example of a psychic detective knowing things that the police did not know, but it is not the best example of a psychic detective solving a case.


JoeTheJuggler chimed in with this: Well why don't you give us the best example of a psychic solving a case through paranormal means? (Sorry--a psychic using conventional methods doesn't count.)

The standard I suggest is the same one they use for giving out rewards--providing information leading to the arrest and conviction in the case.


To which Rodney responded with: Post #197 on this thread gives a good example. There are many other good examples, and so I hesitate to say that one is the best, but you can start there.


And here is Post #197 According to your link:

"Outside the courtroom, Martin said she never spoke to Polk before meeting her in court.

"'She's just trying to show that everyone is psychic,' Martin said about why Polk had called her to the stand.

"Any psychic impressions about a verdict?

"'My answer to that,' Martin said, 'is that everyone is innocent until proven guilty.'"

So, Annette Martin was not a friend of Susan Polk, Martin didn't even know Polk. And would you have liked it better if Martin had said: "My psychic impressions tell me that Polk is guilty as sin"?

Now, what is your explanation for the numerous missing person cases that Martin seems to have solved? Here is the perspective of another police officer who worked on the case I referenced yesterday:

"In 1997, Martin was approached by Roberta Hauser. She was part of a search and rescue team in a state park near Pacifica, Calif., looking for a 71-year-old man who had disappeared from his home.

"'I thought this was a needle in a haystack and I was just going to have to crawl through every section of this park to find him,' Hauser says.

"A 40-person search team had already spent several days combing the dense terrain and had given up, but Hauser pressed on by herself for nine more weeks.

"'Pretty much every day after work I would come out here, my husband sometimes would come out here with me, and I would just slowly but surely cover sections of the map,' Hauser continues. 'The park is thickly shrubbed, and the probability of detection was very low.'

"As a last resort, a local police sergeant contacted Martin and gave her a photograph and a map.

"'[I was] absolutely determined to find him,' says Martin. 'And I really felt like he was here. Well, my hand led me…over to where the area was. And I just followed the roads along, and I circled. He's in this area. That's where he is.'

"At first Hauser was skeptical:

"Hauser went out one final time with a search dog. It was then that the corpse was found in very deep shrubs.

"'The mound is exactly in the center of the circle that she had drawn on the map,' says Hauser. 'She was absolutely right on the money.'"

See http://www.closure4u.com/article.htm (http://www.closure4u.com/article.htm) (June 30, 2000 CBS News story)Which gets us back to Annette Martin.

Whether or not anyone has followed up on that case, I do not know.

[Bri]

Well here (http://www.annette-martin.com/predictions.htm) are some of Martin's predictions for 2004 on her own website (2004 must have been an off year for her).

What will be the biggest news stories of 2004?
Annette: I see it being a wonderful time for entrepreneurs to form new ideas, new companies and new products. I see Bush being re-elected, and I feel they will find Bin Laden this year.

Another terrorist attack in the U.S.?
Annette: I do not see one this year, or any after that.

Will J. Lo find true love?
Annette: I think she’s very sad, and I think it will be several years before she finds somebody. I see a lot of depression there.


I must have missed the news of Bin Laden's capture in 2004. And according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_lopez#Marriages):

Lopez and Anthony married in a quiet home wedding on June 5, 2004, less than a week after his divorce from Torres was finalized on June 1.

It's comforting to know that we won't experience any more terrorist attacks in the U.S. any time in the future though.

-Bri

[Monza]

Garrette, old friend, you're moving the goalposts. Here was our earlier exchange:

Garrette: "Pick one, Rodney. Just pick the one case you think is the best example of a psychic detective using psychic means to solve a case.

"You present your evidence, and we'll (I'll?) evalute it.

"Just one, just the best. Is it Pratt? Is it Weber? Is it Martin?"

Me: "I would focus on the 1988 Nicholas Muscio case, which involved Nancy Weber."

Now, though, the "one case" has morphed into "other cases in Mount Olive." At the moment, I don't have any details on those, but I just gave you a new case in another New Jersey location, if you're interested in investigating it.


According to the May 4, 2006 Newark Star-Ledger:
"Nancy didn't solve the case, but she was right on the money with all kinds of predictions,' said retired Washington Police detective Gary Micco, who worked on the case . . .


So the best evidence of a psychic solving a police case is one where the detective says the psychic didn't solve the case?

ETA: Sorry, I just realized that these are two different cases.

[schlitt]

You've just gotta love retrofitting and testimony based on the memory of a pre-disposed believer.

[Garrette]

Just received this email from the Mount Olive PD:


Mr. xxxx,

I spoke to our attorney’s office. They advised not to release the records because they deem the information that may or may not be in the reports (I have not reviewed the reports and Ms. Weber’s involvement) to fall under the attorney client privilege in regard to confidential information. Please give me more time to review the case with my Lieutenant and Captain and our attorneys again. I would like to give you anything we can. Thanks.

Respectfully,

Mike

Ofc. Mike Cordileone
Mt. Olive Twp Police
204 Flanders Drakestown Road
Budd Lake, NJ 07828Interesting. I am truly curious as to how someone assisting the police could tell the police information which somehow falls under attorney-client privilege, especially when that person later talks about it. Did Weber talk to the town attorney? If so, how did the police get the tips?

Hmmmm..... I'm legitimately puzzled and my puzzler is sore.

[devnull]

if your puzzler is sore, you have no chance to Mount Olive.

Sorry, couldnt resist.

[trvlr2]

Devnull, that comment was verrrry bad......but, in a good way!:D

[Garrette]

if your puzzler is sore, you have no chance to Mount Olive.

Sorry, couldnt resist.Bad devnull. Off to the corner with you for ten minutes now. Be a good lad.


Devnull, that comment was verrrry bad......but, in a good way!:biggrin: You, too.