Seeking gentler messages for a friend

[Dominus]

I have a young friend who is embarking down the wrong path. Having been raised on large doses of paranormal claptrap by her family, she's begun to believe she controls energies and static electricity, and yesterday she told me she was going to start trying to revive wilted flowers with her mind.

I told her I was not a believer in such things, but I would really like to find some brief essays or messages in favor of rational thought, before she wastes a portion of her time here on planet earth. She's sweet and kind of has a crush on me and so I'd like to start out with something a little more Michael Shermer and a little less James Randi (all due respect to our founder). Then I'll link to the million dollar challenge and some advice on how to devise tests that eliminate or greatly reduce the subjective mind's ability to fool oneself.

Obviously I know the link to Randi's challenge, but can you guys help me with a couple of good links that advocate skepticism and dismiss these irrational beliefs? And perhaps something on how she might devise tests for herself, should she remain unpersuaded?

[PB2007]

yesterday she told me she was going to start trying to revive wilted flowers with her mind.

Let her try. When she fails she'll know it's woo. As time goes by, the flowers wilt naturally so she should quickly see she has no "powers".

If not then set up a controlled experiment of your own. Have 4 or 5 flowers and get there to revive one or two of them. Compare to the others.

I'm sure she'll be more convinced by her own eyes. Although having read many threads here i'm not so sure.....

[Hokulele]

Obviously I know the link to Randi's challenge, but can you guys help me with a couple of good links that advocate skepticism and dismiss these irrational beliefs? And perhaps something on how she might devise tests for herself, should she remain unpersuaded?


Give her a copy of The Demon Haunted World (http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196154357&sr=1-1) by Carl Sagan.

[PB2007]

Give her a copy of The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan.

Looks at bookshelf and thinks "Dammit, why didn't i think of that....."

[Ashles]

As a simple test could you not ask her if she would be able to affect any form of EM meter? What about of those things that detects wires in the wall?
If she believes she can effect 'energies' maybe she believes she can affect a compass?

But I agree that you need to set ground rules first - ask what performance would she believe was a pass and what would be a fail?

[Georg]

Give her a copy of The Demon Haunted World (http://www.amazon.com/Demon-Haunted-World-Science-Candle-Dark/dp/0345409469/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196154357&sr=1-1) by Carl Sagan.

Give her a copy of why people believe weird things (http://www.amazon.com/People-Believe-Weird-Things-Pseudoscience/dp/0716733870) by Michael Shermer.
I like both books very much. They explain a lot without being aggressive or condescending.

[Garrette]

Sincerely agree to help her test her abilities. Ask folks here for advice on how to test reviving wilted flowers.

[Ladewig]

As a simple test could you not ask her if she would be able to affect any form of EM meter? What about of those things that detects wires in the wall?
If she believes she can effect 'energies' maybe she believes she can affect a compass?

But I agree that you need to set ground rules first - ask what performance would she believe was a pass and what would be a fail?

It is easy to imagine that carefully defining the limits of the test and controlling all the variables will lead the person to conclude that she does not have special powers. Depending on the person's mindset, the conclusion might just as easily be, "my powers don't work when skeptics are near me." Still, it is worth a try.

[Garrette]

It is easy to imagine that carefully defining the limits of the test and controlling all the variables will lead the person to conclude that she does not have special powers. Depending on the person's mindset, the conclusion might just as easily be, "my powers don't work when skeptics are near me." Still, it is worth a try.You are right, of course, but assisting in a professional yet friendly manner affords the opportunity to remain friends while communicating the reasons for not accepting the friend's claims (assuming, of course, that the tests are negative).

[Ladewig]

You are right, of course, but assisting in a professional yet friendly manner affords the opportunity to remain friends while communicating the reasons for not accepting the friend's claims (assuming, of course, that the tests are negative).

Agreed, but in many cases, maintaining that friendship while communicating reasons for not accepting the claims requires walking a very fine line.

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the thing I would do, rather than engaging in the more argumentative conversations, is to get them to make a commitment to the truth.

That is, get them to agree that the truth is important--more important than how things ought be, for instance.

Frequently, those arguing for woo spend a lot of time, and put great significance, on the fact that you can't know everything (or science can't explain x). If you get off of that, and start from an agreement that the truth is what we're both after, then it can 1) put us both on the same side, and 2) avoid a heckuva lot of fallacious reasoning.

If they worry about you being open-minded, try to get them to define it. I insist that I am open-minded, and that if there was compelling evidence for their beliefs (standards for which should be set before drawing a conclusion), then I'd believe it too. Can they make the same commitment? (If the evidence fails to support a proposition, that they'd abandon it?) If not, then aren't they being close-minded?

I agree with the others though--it's very tough to do and maintain a cordial relationship. I don't think there's much of a choice, though. Would your friend want you to ignore these subjects altogether or--worse yet--pretend to agree/believe when you don't?

[Ron_Tomkins]

I have a young friend who is embarking down the wrong path. Having been raised on large doses of paranormal claptrap by her family, she's begun to believe she controls energies and static electricity, and yesterday she told me she was going to start trying to revive wilted flowers with her mind.

I told her I was not a believer in such things, but I would really like to find some brief essays or messages in favor of rational thought, before she wastes a portion of her time here on planet earth. She's sweet and kind of has a crush on me and so I'd like to start out with something a little more Michael Shermer and a little less James Randi (all due respect to our founder). Then I'll link to the million dollar challenge and some advice on how to devise tests that eliminate or greatly reduce the subjective mind's ability to fool oneself.

Obviously I know the link to Randi's challenge, but can you guys help me with a couple of good links that advocate skepticism and dismiss these irrational beliefs? And perhaps something on how she might devise tests for herself, should she remain unpersuaded?


I have a question: You mention she claims she can revive wilted flowers. You also mention she kind of has a crush of you. Couldn't this simply be her way of trying to conquer your heart in a way? I'm not denying that she might have a tendency to believe in woo... but couldn't there be another reason for her claiming that to you? I just can't help seeing some sort of poetry in it. Perhaps there's more than meets the eye.

Perhaps there's more than meets the eye.

[Susan Gerbic]

I have a question: You mention she claims she can revive wilted flowers. You also mention she kind of has a crush of you. Couldn't this simply be her way of trying to conquer your heart in a way? I'm not denying that she might have a tendency to believe in woo... but couldn't there be another reason for her claiming that to you? I just can't help seeing some sort of poetry in it. Perhaps there's more than meets the eye.


OMFSM you beat me to this post. This is what I was thinking all along. She just wants attention from you. If you think you might like to date her but you are not into dating a woo filled woman, then I suggest that you approach her in other ways to show that she does not need the woo to interest you in her.

She may think that this is the only way you will pay attention to her. Kinda like the (fake) kleptomaniac stealing from the cute psychologist. (a reference to an Agatha Christie)

Susan

[cloudshipsrule]

Having been raised on large doses of paranormal claptrap by her family, she's begun to believe she controls energies and static electricity, and yesterday she told me she was going to start trying to revive wilted flowers with her mind.

Make her try to wilt healthy flowers. Eventually it will work, and she'll be happy!

[four elevener]

yesterday she told me she was going to start trying to revive wilted flowers with her mind.


I've never seen anyone do that...except for E.T.

[flim flam]

good luck!
people with a tendency to woo-ness hold onto their beliefs pretty tight. in my experience bursting their bubble is the same as telling a 5 year old there's no santa. i recently sent a link to snopes.com in reply to one of those stupid " missing kid-pray to jeebus" forwards ( i finally snapped after years of receiving them) and got a very hurt email in reply along the lines of " i thought i was doing some good..". now i feel like the grinch!!!. on the plus side i havent been getting any more forwarded crappy emails...

[ChaoticLimbs]

Sleep with her and then dump her.

(beware, this is my answer to every question)

[Susan Gerbic]

people with a tendency to woo-ness hold onto their beliefs pretty tight. in my experience bursting their bubble is the same as telling a 5 year old there's no santa. i recently sent a link to snopes.com in reply to one of those stupid " missing kid-pray to jeebus" forwards ( i finally snapped after years of receiving them) and got a very hurt email in reply along the lines of " i thought i was doing some good..". now i feel like the grinch!!!. on the plus side i havent been getting any more forwarded crappy emails...

I did this same thing after 9.11 when the Muslims cheering in the (insert store name here) as the buildings were coming down story was all over the net. My husband (now-ex) cousin sent me that story. It just hit me the wrong way so I posted the snopes link to the story and sent it back to him. He got all peeved off and said it was just a joke and I shouldn't get all offended. I know I was RIGHT but it didn't help the family peace, so in the end I don't know if what I did was the right thing.

I have done this a few more times over the years, but now I try to be nicer about it. I guess it is a woman's thing trying to keep peace on all fronts.

Our local paper just did an article on the Internet and they said that every 3 seconds a brand new person joins the Internet community. Amazing! Lots of these people are those who have nothing better to do than send on junk emails.

Back to the OP = What have you decided to do with this friend? Time for an update!

Susan

[Dominus]

I thank you for all the posts. I would have responded sooner but for some reason I'm not receiving my subscription update emails.

A clarification to two of you-- she said she was going try and start reviving flowers, not that she already could. She believes she has a variety of powers such as control of static electricity and energy fields in bodies, and a variety of other things.

I could get her books and I'll certainly consider that, but I was hoping to find a briefer text such as here or on skeptic.com that is more likely to be read by a true believer. I'd worry the book will be shelved before or after reading a few pages.

[solas]

I see this more as a relationship question too and tbh if you really like her and want to make a go of it then maybe you can learn to respect her beliefs and carry on in the confidence of your own. If she digs you she'll love that aspect of you and very probably learn more than you could possibly teach her purely through your own example. If you find your unable to see more about a person than their beliefs than she's probably not the one for you.

My parents were chalk and cheese in that regard, my father was a very spiritual man (after near fatal motorbike accident, he had an appreciation for life) and my mother a harsh disciplinarian who seemed to feed off the process of destroying peoples self esteem and dreams. All the same I was grateful for my fathers gentleness which softened the blows of reality when mother was around.

[Susan Gerbic]

I thank you for all the posts. I would have responded sooner but for some reason I'm not receiving my subscription update emails.

I had this problem when I first started posting. I turned off the update email function as it took forever to receive. Now I am always logged on and just go to top of JREF forum page. Click on "user cp" and then on "subscribed threads" then you are good to go.

Susan

[skeptifem]

how old is she?


some stuff... people just need to grow out of. it might not be something you can force.

[PBTree]

I thank you for all the posts. I would have responded sooner but for some reason I'm not receiving my subscription update emails.

A clarification to two of you-- she said she was going try and start reviving flowers, not that she already could. She believes she has a variety of powers such as control of static electricity and energy fields in bodies, and a variety of other things.

I could get her books and I'll certainly consider that, but I was hoping to find a briefer text such as here or on skeptic.com that is more likely to be read by a true believer. I'd worry the book will be shelved before or after reading a few pages.


Rub your comb on your jumper, pick up a few pieces of paper, then tell her to do the same thing without the comb.

Amazing what you can't do when pressed.

[Susan Gerbic]

Rub your comb on your jumper, pick up a few pieces of paper, then tell her to do the same thing without the comb.

Jumper? Do people still wear jumpers? Are you British?

Susan

[PBTree]

Jumper? Do people still wear jumpers? Are you British?

Susan

Nope, I bathe.

Just old.....

;)

[Derwoods]

I am currently weening my girlfriend from her wooness (pagan/wiccan/psychic/tarot/astrology). I am taking the gradual approach and helping her find her own way out. I got her hooked on mythbusters and then Penn and Teller's show that will be censored if I type the name.

It seems to be pretty easy to get someone into debunking the woo of others.. then hopefully it is just a matter of time and a little gentle nudging to help them make the connection to thier own woo. I also found sharing my facination with the MDC process and the results of the tests so far as a good place to get her thinking (the stereo cables thread is a good start as it comes off as more Nader than Randi).

So far so good on this end. She still wants to believe that there is a chance that there might be some real psychic powers out there but she admits that divination has no practical value now and has a much more skeptical outlook on such things. My next step is to get her to read "Full Facts Book of Cold Reading" and then have her go get another tarot reading.

edit/addition:

Some other things I learned from talking to her about her beliefs:

make sure you don't come off as attacking her woo. My girlfriend was under the impression that skeptics were basically mean spirited and out to take away something she holds dear. Make it clear that you would love to find out (through testing) that something so fantastic is true.

Her beliefs were more based on what feels good to her rather than what makes sense. This makes it tricky since there was a tendency for her to feel that by abandoning her feelings (beliefs) she would be throwing away the meaning and purpose she felt she gained through her belief systems.

[Susan Gerbic]

Great suggestions Derwood.

Susan

[sopsyched]

Like Derwoods said, if you want somebody to listen to you, it rarely works to directly contract their beliefs, and it is crucial to make them understand you are open-minded, too (after all, you want them to be).

One thing I have found helpful is to act like a scientist trying to understand their beliefs. First, assure the other person that you don't think they are stupid, and that you respect them enough to try to understand. Then, just keep asking questions as nicely and innocently as you possibly can.

As you said, you could get her to design her own experiment. Explain that, obviously, you can't outright reject her "powers" (yes, you know it is pretty darn certain that she doesn't have such powers, but no one can know for sure), it's just, as Derwoods also said, that you haven't seen something like that before, and you would be interested in it (but you won't be disappointed or upset if it doesn't work). When you ask her about her beliefs, genuinely, she will likely want to talk about them and in the process will make specific claims about what she thinks she can do, or you will be able to extract them ("So, are you saying that if you do X, the flowers will come back to life?"). Then, you can gently introduce falsification ("So, the flowers will wilt if you don't do X?") and confounds ("You know, I've had/heard that flowers that look like they are wilting can come back to life on their own, just like people heal themselves, so how would I know it was you?"). A specific falsifiable hypothesis and controls for confounds are all that is necessary.

It does take a bit more time, and, for this technique, requires a certain finesse (to feign confusion without being fake). But because the other person wants to make sense of their thoughts in order to explain them to you, it works so much better. The key is to be sincere, ensure it is about you trying to understand (not you trying to manipulate them), and to do it with the best of intentions (because it is being manipulative, unfortunately).

[Dominus]

I want to say thanks very much for all your advice. I'm not actually seeking a romantic relationship with this person, she's just a friend and I'm just looking to help a friend see another path than the one she appears to be embarking on.

[Autolite]

Let her try. When she fails she'll know it's woo.

I wouldn't count on it. In my experience, believers tend to ignore direct evidence. Perhaps a copy of the "Skeptics Dictionary" might help. To wean someone off of woo they need to be fed small doses of reality, (twice a day), in easily digestable portions. Improvement may not be readily noticeable for the first two or three days up to 25 years...

http://www.skepdic.com/contents.html