Priests, the magical poobahs of religion

[Senex]

I attended a Catholic funeral service recently and remembered many of my old issues with Catholicism. If you are Catholic you believe priests are the magicians who hold your afterlife in their hands. Catholics believe you are born with a big black mark on your soul right out of the box. You need a priest to say the mumbo-jumbo words over you before you die or there will be no heaven for you. Priests turn waifers and wine into body and blood every Sunday in a room full of people. Priests can remove sins that mark your soul with a few words in a confessional or on your deathbed. Priests can bond a man and a woman forever (unless you pay enough to get them to reconsider and give you an anullment).

The truth is it is a scam. They are no closer to god than the stuttering preacher on your local cable access channel. I was sick for three days recently and watched too much TV. I watched lots of preachers and they all were so full of themselves and pointed their fingers i couldn't believe anyone would show up and sit for their speaches. Every single one was crap.

One might be crap but he was different. His name was Joel Orsteen. He was preaching you shouldn't be the negative guy at work. He was preaching Dale Carnagie with "god wants you to be successful at work and going to work happy will get you a promotion." You should see this place in Houston he preaches in -- it's a palace. He must be very successful. He was smarmy as hell and his haircut looked suspiciously expensive -- but I'll admit he only bored me by saying the same things over and over but he uniquely didn't offend me. His message was "god wants you to treat your coworkers respectfully because that is in your financial interest and financial success for you and your family is what god wishes." He wasn't preaching scripture. That's better than preaching scripture.

[Kochanski]

Well if everyone is successful and happy and followed the words of Joel Orsteen then they may give Joel Orsteen more money for more stuff ;) And that makes Joel Orsteen more financially successful ;)

[m_huber]

Joel Osteen (http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_homepage), perhaps? He's the new most famous religious leader in the country. I watched him a few years back; He didn't seem as intent on preaching christianity as he did pumping out inspirational messages. If you felt the need for religion in your life, you could probably watch him without having to actually believe in any form of god. You can't even find the word "god" on the front page of his website.

[Kopji]

My good deed for today is to save thousands of people all kinds of money. Instead of giving your money to these guys, go out and buy the old book 'How to win friends and influence people'.

[Senex]

Joel Osteen (http://joelosteen.lakewood.cc/site/PageServer?pagename=JOM_homepage), perhaps? He's the new most famous religious leader in the country. I watched him a few years back; He didn't seem as intent on preaching christianity as he did pumping out inspirational messages. If you felt the need for religion in your life, you could probably watch him without having to actually believe in any form of god. You can't even find the word "god" on the front page of his website.

I didn't know he was the most famous. I only knew that on the next cable station (channel 27-28) broadcast at the same time was a show called "The Hour of Power" that was taped in the same place. You can't mistake that huge auditorium with the big globe of the world on stage for another place. I remember stopping to listen to an Osteen sermon for a few minutes once beforewhile going through the channels. He was saying you shouldn't hate people who are different from you because god doesn't want you to hate and it isn't in your best interest to hate. I remember scratching my chin listening to him state that hate is bad -- not because it was wrong -- but because it will keep you from becoming everything you can be. He states doing the right thing is in your best interest. He ties god based morality and best interest into being one and the same. I find stating you know what god thinks appalling (I don't even believe in god but anyone who states they know what god wants is a particular villain to me.)

kochanski says:Well if everyone is successful and happy and followed the words of Joel Osteen then they may give Joel Osteen more money for more stuff And that makes Joel Osteen more financially successful

Yes, but in his philosophy everybody wins and no one is exploited. This guy is making a ton of money without clearly exploiting a particular demographic. He's the woo guy that is difficult to attack.

Kopji says:My good deed for today is to save thousands of people all kinds of money. Instead of giving your money to these guys, go out and buy the old book 'How to win friends and influence people'.

In my original post I said he was the Dale Carnegie of woos. That's the guy that wrote your book. On some level Dale Carnegie doesn't suck.

[Kochanski]

If his whole message is "Don't worry, be happy" I'd rather listen to the inane song.

He is newage with god snuck in. That makes him useless. That also makes him very like L Ron Hubbard but without the paranoia and aliens.

[Senex]

If his whole message is "Don't worry, be happy" I'd rather listen to the inane song.

He is newage with god snuck in. That makes him useless. That also makes him very like L Ron Hubbard but without the paranoia and aliens.

Don't get me wrong -- I dislike anyone who steps on a stage and preaches they know more about spiritual (god, whatever b******t) things than the average person. (I don't believe in spirits, certainly nothing spiritual).

I'm just saying Orsteen is an unusual woo because he doesn't preach gays suck and point to a passage from Liviticus. He says don't let gay/atheist/people unlike yourself distract you from being all you can be.

It's an odd-ball religious philosophy. It's personal rewards over spiritual scripture. I just think followers of him will make better neighbors than followers of most TV preachers who are hateful.

I'm just saying I place him slightly higher on the people I've watched on TV scale who I think are completely full of poo. He is full of poo but not as mean-spirited.

[m_huber]

I'm just saying I place him slightly higher on the people I've watched on TV scale who I think are completely full of poo. He is full of poo but not as mean-spirited.

He's full of nice poo?

[Senex]

He's full of nice poo?

Let's call it non-hateful poo. You can't deny the guy believes he can interpret what god wants for you -- that's still dabbling in the poo.

I had a roommate in college who was going through a bad time. Four of us shared a 4 bedroom apartment. Dave was depressed/suicidal. I would come home from the university and he would be sitting on the couch drinking rot gut scotch (it said scotch on the label but wasn't from Scotland). He would be watching this preacher named Dr. Eugene Scott. Dave was my friend and I tried to support him. I would sit with him and try to talk with him while this Dr. Scott program was on. We all have our strengths and weeknesses and one of my strengths is watching someone give a speach and quickly being able to understand what their point is. I could watch Dr. Scott for hours and not understand what he was talking about. The guy was speaking English but he might as well of been speaking martian. One good thing about him was he didn't ask for money directly -- only a text message that scrolled on the bottom of the screen asked you to call an 800 number. Dr. Scott may/may not have been hateful, but I doubt anyone could tell.

I'm not an expert on preachers, but I often stop for a few minutes as I channel surf when I come across one. Billy Graham was the smoothest preacher. He occasionally said mean-spirited things but he had a compelling cadence in his voice. There is this one guy on late at night and may god strike me dead if he doesn't raise his hand and say "may god strike me dead" if your $65 donation that will plant a seed in your life doesn't go to the ministry and not my own pocket. That guy is lucky their isn't a god striking people down who ask for it.

Joel Osteen doesn't hold a bible or raise his voice while pointing a finger or speak in cadence -- he doesn't even seem to read from any notes as far as I could tell. He's a particularly good speaker who makes a living off the woos in a much less vile manner than most preachers.

[Kopji]

I was implying that Osteen does not give you anything for your hundreds or thousands of dollars a year that Carnegie did for about $10. Give the gift of used books this year.

People like him are a creature that I have mixed feelings about. I have more respect for a true believer with wacky beliefs than someone who doesn't really believe, but uses the empty husk of religion for profit or fun.

[Kopji]

I sometimes wonder if I should feel differently about it, maybe I'll change over time. That maybe a more reasonable position is to be supportive of a watered down feel good pseudo-religion that weans people away from the grip of 'spiritual authority'.

It does not feel right though. I agree it is better to be hot or cold about religion than lukewarm.

[Senex]

It does not feel right though. I agree it is better to be hot or cold about religion than lukewarm.

Yes, religion is clearly an untenable position to hold. I was only stating Osteen is the least of the evil people who claim to know god's will on today's TV. I believe you should be cold about religion. No one breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

[Kopji]

Yes, religion is clearly an untenable position to hold. I was only stating Osteen is the least of the evil people who claim to know god's will on today's TV. I believe you should be cold about religion. No one breaks the laws of thermodynamics.

Each of us have ideas or behaviors that challenge others to accept, it touches on our need for tolerance. Tolerance is not a specific virtue, but a realization that we ourselves hold views or behave in ways that others might consider extreme or outright crazy. To the degree that I accept difference in others is a reflection of what I claim for myself.

A principle I uphold is the value of trying to understand something as it really is, not only as it appears on the surface. The 'religion' of the Osteens, Brownes or Schwartz's in the world would have me settle for less. But it takes two for them to prosper so I cannot think of them as 'evil' in that sense. They cannot exist alone. They are more like a pretty illusion or distraction from the more difficult task of understanding that is always before us.

Hope that made sense, it's late.... :)

[Senex]

Each of us have ideas or behaviors that challenge others to accept, it touches on our need for tolerance. Tolerance is not a specific virtue, but a realization that we ourselves hold views or behave in ways that others might consider extreme or outright crazy. To the degree that I accept difference in others is a reflection of what I claim for myself.

Yes, accepting differences is very important. Yesterday, while I was checking out the threads I posted to before going to sleep, I noticed too late that you had over 5000 posts. I was concerned that someone of your experience on this website might be offended with my "no one breaks the law of thermodynamics quote." However, you took it in stride. I also clicked on your photo. I discovered you are beautiful but you have a family, I never clicked anything after the first page. My virtues are elusive.

A principle I uphold is the value of trying to understand something as it really is, not only as it appears on the surface. The 'religion' of the Osteens, Brownes or Schwartz's in the world would have me settle for less. But it takes two for them to prosper so I cannot think of them as 'evil' in that sense. They cannot exist alone. They are more like a pretty illusion or distraction from the more difficult task of understanding that is always before us.

Hope that made sense, it's late.... :)

If and when you have a handle on understanding please let me know. I'll overlook your marital status for understanding ;)

[Bikewer]

It's interesting that early Christianity was challenged by the Gnostic movement, which was a self-actualizing idea that bypassed the need for priests.....

Stamped out as a dreadful heresy, of course.

[Senex]

It's interesting that early Christianity was challenged by the Gnostic movement, which was a self-actualizing idea that bypassed the need for priests.....

Stamped out as a dreadful heresy, of course.

Heresy because it challenged their scam. Priests are a profit center. However, even the most simple-minded priest must know he isn't a magician. The molecular structure of water isn't changed when they say their mumbo-jumbo over it. If only we had real vampires we could prove the uselessness of priests

[fuelair]

I was implying that Osteen does not give you anything for your hundreds or thousands of dollars a year that Carnegie did for about $10. Give the gift of used books this year.

People like him are a creature that I have mixed feelings about. I have more respect for a true believer with wacky beliefs than someone who doesn't really believe, but uses the empty husk of religion for profit or fun.Actually, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and Machievelli's The Prince ought to be on every dung-hill climbers top ten list of ways to behave as both teach how to trick your way to the top by pretending to be who you likely are not. Carnegie was just nicer and did not involve assassinations.:):D:D:)

[This Guy]

Osteen has attracted a lot of attention. From the little bit I've seen of him, he appears to have a very upbeat message, and a very good delivery. Of course, he's still a snake oil salesman ;)

Seems some of the "believers" don't agree with his message (http://www.av1611.org/osteen.html). Also see here (http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/joel_osteen_smi.html), and here (http://www.cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm).

[Beerina]

Actually, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and Machievelli's The Prince ought to be on every dung-hill climbers top ten list of ways to behave as both teach how to trick your way to the top by pretending to be who you likely are not. Carnegie was just nicer and did not involve assassinations.:):D:D:)

Here's Carnegie summed up: "You get more flies with honey than with vinegar." I.e. praise rather than punishment.

Science has refined that as of last week, though. Praise kids' schoolwork with "Wow! You must have worked hard!" rather than, "Wow! You sure must be smart!" The former will cause kids to redouble their effort on hard problems. The latter causes them psychological dissonance when they encounter hard problems, and they give up and go back to easy ones where they can be "smart" again.

[Senex]

Seems some of the "believers" don't agree with his message (http://www.av1611.org/osteen.html). Also see here (http://www.apprising.org/archives/2005/10/joel_osteen_smi.html), and here (http://www.cultlink.com/ar/osteen.htm).

His message that he doesn't believe non-Christians are necessarily damned and it's not up to him to judge others. My 12 years of parochial eduction tells me he is indeed a heretic. You can't even get to heaven as a Catholic if you die before a magician says the magic baptismal words. If unbaptised babies can't get in non-Christians are damned for sure.

Check this link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071203/lf_nm/italy_religion_chair_dc)out for the smell of woo... I'm not a believer but I still wouldn't sit in that chair -- it's creepy.

[Kopji]

Yes, accepting differences is very important. Yesterday, while I was checking out the threads I posted to before going to sleep, I noticed too late that you had over 5000 posts. I was concerned that someone of your experience on this website might be offended with my "no one breaks the law of thermodynamics quote."

I'm not convinced that post count has any real meaning (except as a measure of skin thickness).

I only have about three guidelines that I follow.

1: Everything I write is new, I don't cut and paste anything I wrote somewhere else.

2: I try to add something I think is of value (hardest to do).

3: If I post a drawing or photo, I never spend more time doing it than I would in writing.

and more generally

4: Try and follow the jref site guidelines, since I am essentially a guest.

However, you took it in stride.

Ok. I didn't really understand it but that's ok it happens fairly often.


I also clicked on your photo. I discovered you are beautiful but you have a family, I never clicked anything after the first page. My virtues are elusive.


Oh, that's not me. The beautiful one's name is Masako Natsume. Humm, an artistic muse. She was nice on the inside too. I post her picture there so that I'll have incentive to check my user blog and settings once in a while. She died a couple decades ago of cancer.

The reality is that I am a 50 year old dad and not nearly so attractive. I have a scar on my chin from smacking it on a diving board when I was a kid. My sisters dared me to jump. I have another scar from some skin cancer now removed.


If and when you have a handle on understanding please let me know. I'll overlook your marital status for understanding ;)

Understanding is something that I never completely arrive at, but can be provisionally accepted by examining evidence or lack of it.

[Kopji]

Actually, Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People and Machievelli's The Prince ought to be on every dung-hill climbers top ten list of ways to behave as both teach how to trick your way to the top by pretending to be who you likely are not. Carnegie was just nicer and did not involve assassinations.:):D:D:)

I've read both! :)

Carnegie's simple principles are to treat each person as if they are important, and make each person feel important. I find that fascinating in the sense that our perspective can often impact the outcome - an idea worth some study.

I used to just think of Machiavelli as being evil. I have adjusted my view over time. Machiavelli is more complex and interesting than my first impression, I still go back and study him once in a while. He was tortured by the Spanish and endured much of what he writes about, so we have to read what he wrote as a reflection on experience. He seems like an early advocate for democracy, in that the powers and decisions he talks about are better wielded and made by the people than a specific 'prince'.

[Senex]

I'm not convinced that post count has any real meaning (except as a measure of skin thickness).

I only have about three guidelines that I follow.

1: Everything I write is new, I don't cut and paste anything I wrote somewhere else.

2: I try to add something I think is of value (hardest to do).

3: If I post a drawing or photo, I never spend more time doing it than I would in writing.

and more generally

4: Try and follow the jref site guidelines, since I am essentially a guest.

Slightly eccentric, but fine giudlines.

Oh, that's not me. The beautiful one's name is Masako Natsume. Humm, an artistic muse. She was nice on the inside too. I post her picture there so that I'll have incentive to check my user blog and settings once in a while. She died a couple decades ago of cancer.

The reality is that I am a 50 year old dad and not nearly so attractive. I have a scar on my chin from smacking it on a diving board when I was a kid. My sisters dared me to jump. I have another scar from some skin cancer now removed.

Oh well, I've been wrong before and evidently will continue.

Understanding is something that I never completely arrive at, but can be provisionally accepted by examining evidence or lack of it.

I clearly fail at understanding at the most profound level. I guess what is most important is that we wake up everyday and try again.

[Darth Rotor]

Heresy because it challenged their scam. Priests are a profit center. However, even the most simple-minded priest must know he isn't a magician. The molecular structure of water isn't changed when they say their mumbo-jumbo over it. If only we had real vampires we could prove the uselessness of priests

I find your analysis far too narrow. (Much of my understanding of Gnosticism is informed by Pagel's work.)

Gnosticism had the significant problem of an elitist structure, with the only people finding the state of grace being those who could spend the time and effort to achieve a Maslow like fifth step on the pyramid.

The Christian forms that were adopted were far more inclusive, less exclusive, and thus had a broader appeal.

In a mild counter factual excursion here, Gnosticism's real weakness was never exposed, which was it's inability to scale up. Christianity scaled up well enough (for all its warts) and when confronted by an Islam inspired culture war, over 8 or 9 centuries, 711-1700) , was able to draw on that organizational strength to prevail. (Yes, the religious and secular kingdoms were incestuously connected, as were their Islamic opposites.)

Had Gnosticism prevailed, the likelihood of it scaling up as well in the clash of civilizations is dubious at best, given its modes of operation.

Christianity (as it evolved) versus Gnosticism: Easier sale to more customers. In numbers was a considerable cultural strength.

DR

[Senex]

I find your analysis far too narrow. (Much of my understanding of Gnosticism is informed by Pagel's work.

Who brought up gnostisism? Who is Pagel?

Gnosticism had the significant problem of an elitist structure, with the only people finding the state of grace being those who could spend the time and effort to achieve a Maslow like fifth step on the pyramid.

I took psychology 101. Self-actualization doesn't happen.

The Christian forms that were adopted were far more inclusive, less exclusive, and thus had a broader appeal.

In a mild counter factual excursion here, Gnosticism's real weakness was never exposed, which was it's inability to scale up. Christianity scaled up well enough (for all its warts) and when confronted by an Islam inspired culture war, over 8 or 9 centuries, 711-1700) , was able to draw on that organizational strength to prevail. (Yes, the religious and secular kingdoms were incestuously connected, as were their Islamic opposites.)

Had Gnosticism prevailed, the likelihood of it scaling up as well in the clash of civilizations is dubious at best, given its modes of operation.

Christianity (as it evolved) versus Gnosticism: Easier sale to more customers. In numbers was a considerable cultural strength.

DR

I have no idea why you are taking about gnostism. I'm an open minded guy - please explain what you are trying to explain. I like to think I'm not s simple-minded person but I'm in the dark about this post.