Hell and The Identity of Satan

[Nobody]

Is it possible that when the bible refers to hell, it doesn't literally mean a lake of fire where sinners and unbelievers burn ? Is eternal burning really a pagan philosophy ?

Could it be misinterpreted because of language translations and changed definitions of words ?

Is it possible that Lucifer and satan are 2 entirely different entities ?

This is what this website claims :

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

[c4ts]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nobody
Is it possible that when the bible refers to hell, it doesn't literally mean a lake of fire where sinners and unbelievers burn ? Is eternal burning really a pagan philosophy ?

Could it be misinterpreted because of language translations and changed definitions of words ?

Is it possible that Lucifer and satan are 2 entirely different entities ?

This is what this website claims :

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

It's also possible that Elzoob will throw you into a sumo pit for not decoding your alphabet soup. But do I care?

Anyway, as for Christians ripping off of pagan beliefs, there already was a pagan underworld goddess called "Hell" but that's just where the word comes from. Originally Hell was "Gehenna" or something which was a dump outside Jerusalem. There were fire pits and really bad things so it became a metaphor for a firey underworld like Tartarus, and the Jews had a similar belief in a Hell-like place at the time.

[Ryokan]

Hell comes from the Norse Mythology Hel, a place were most souls of the dead went. Except it was pretty cold there, not warm.

And as for the Lucifer/Satan thing, there's nothing in the bible that could be interpreted to mean they were one and the same.

[Mojo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryokan
Hell comes from the Norse Mythology Hel, a place were most souls of the dead went. Except it was pretty cold there, not warm.

They have a Blues Festival there. This week in fact. I particularly like the look of one of Saturday night's events:

Quote:

BLUES CRUISE TO HELL

[Ryokan]

Haha, yes. There's a small town outside Trondheim called Hell.

It's a popular place to send postcards from for tourists, especially the ones from the train station where it says 'Hell Station - Gods Expedition'. (Gods = Goods)

[Robin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nobody
Is it possible that when the bible refers to hell, it doesn't literally mean a lake of fire where sinners and unbelievers burn ? Is eternal burning really a pagan philosophy ?

Could it be misinterpreted because of language translations and changed definitions of words ?

Is it possible that Lucifer and satan are 2 entirely different entities ?

This is what this website claims :

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

Eternal burning is as good an interpretation of the Bibles confused handful of references.

In Matthew Jesus says that punishment is eternal. In Mark (I think, I can't be bothered looking it up) he reiterates the Isaiah "worm that dieth not and fire is not quenched". Taken together with the Revelations Lake of Fire eternal punishment by flames appears to be the preferred method of dealing with dissenters.

It is not entirely clear why unquenchable flames and undying worms should worry you in the slightest if you are already dead. And of course Jesus does specify 'eternal'.

A more important question is 'is Arnie's character on Total Recall really on Mars at the end of the film, or is he really on earth experiencing a malfunctioning memory implant?'

[Atlas]

The site does put a negative spin on things.

Satan eats dust. Man is dust. So that means that Satan eats humans.

I hesitate to expand on the logic.

Fruits, vegetables and all the animals also return to dust just as humans do. Humans eat fruits, vegetables and animals. Humans are Satan.

I think I could prove anything if the world would accept my logic.

[Beerina]

Quote:

Originally posted by Robin
reiterates the Isaiah "worm that dieth not and fire is not quenched".

Presumably the worms eating through my body are fire proof.

So if someone enjoyed premarital sex, and refused to ask for forgiveness for it, they get tortured by worms eating their body as they lie in lava for ever and ever?

What kind of psychotic God are we dealing with here?!?!?

[Robin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Beerina
What kind of psychotic God are we dealing with here?!?!?

Best damn psychotic God in the universe!

Now any takers for my Arnie question. Philosophically speaking much more important.

[Robin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Beerina
So if someone enjoyed premarital sex, and refused to ask for forgiveness for it, they get tortured by worms eating their body as they lie in lava for ever and ever?

You don't get it at all - they will get tortured by worms and lava even if they have pre-marital sex and don't enjoy it. In fact even if they just think about it.

Christian Dude explained it all perfectly - you see God is Morally Perfect and incapable of sinning which is why he just has to torture people for eternity. He just has no say in the matter - if it were up to him he would let you off.

But of course he can't unless you accept the Sacrifice of his Son after which it is OK.

Proof that he does not really want you torture you for eternity is that he died for you (then got better).

[Bikewer]

At least one early Christian sect (I forget which one, it was in Lost Christianities) believed that the OT God was indeed an insane, rogue God, who had formed the Earth as a sort of big cosmic mistake. (having fallen out of favor with the OTHER gods....)

[Atlas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Robin
...Christian Dude explained it all perfectly - you see God is Morally Perfect and incapable of sinning which is why he just has to torture people for eternity. He just has no say in the matter - if it were up to him he would let you off.

But of course he can't unless you accept the Sacrifice of his Son after which it is OK.

Proof that he does not really want you torture you for eternity is that he died for you (then got better).

What gets me is that his Son died for all the sins. So it's all been paid for. Even so, God feels like eternally torturing people for their sins.

I think he overpaid himself.

[Robin]

Quote:

Originally posted by Atlas
What gets me is that his Son died for all the sins. So it's all been paid for. Even so, God feels like eternally torturing people for their sins.

I think he overpaid himself.

You missed the asterisk and the small print*:

_{* Additional costs and charges may apply}

[Anti_Hypeman]

Quote:

Originally posted by Robin
Best damn psychotic God in the universe!

Now any takers for my Arnie question. Philosophically speaking much more important.

He was dreaming. One of the images during the sales pitch is the alien generator hard to explain that if it was real. The girl looked exactly like he picked and everything happened just like the guy said. The nurse says something about blue skies on mars before he goes under how would she know about the machine and that Arnie was going to turn it on?

[Anti_Hypeman]

Makes perfect sense that TR would do it that way. If Arnie just woke up on mars he would know he was dreaming the whole time and not get the full experience. By starting him off on earth thinking that the implant didnt work and adding the pill guy he can fully enjoy the illusion.

[Beerina]

Quote:

Originally posted by Bikewer
At least one early Christian sect (I forget which one, it was in Lost Christianities) believed that the OT God was indeed an insane, rogue God, who had formed the Earth as a sort of big cosmic mistake. (having fallen out of favor with the OTHER gods....)

That was one of othe gnostic variations, I think. It's one of the few things I took out of the "History of Christian Thought" class at Michigan lo' these many years ago. Well, that and sitting behind a good looking, tall girl with black hair.

Evidently the original god was perfect -- so perfect and good and ultimate, in fact, that a copy of Him self-instantiated. It was perfect and good and so on in all aspects, except that it was not the original. But it was still awesome-o enough that a copy of it also self-instantiated. This process repeated itself until the 7th copy self-instantiated (lovely number, 7 there.)

Sadly, by this time enough errors had accumulated that no copy of #7 self-instantiated. This pissed off #7 mightily, so he created the Earth, complete with crappy pseudo-copies called humans, and lorded over, oops, Lorded over them. The serpent, our hero in disguise gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, which #7 (we shall call Him @$$hole) didn't want His copies knowing.

Makes a lot more sense to me. Still not much sense, but a lot more than what I was taught when I grew up.

[TheMashiah]

in dante's inferno, the inner most circle of hell is said to have a frozen lake which satan is imbedded in. just a thought.

[Ducky]

Hell is actually a small town in Michigan.

As for Lucifer and Satan, they're both doing time in Jackson State Prison for embezzlement.

[Atlas]

Quote:

Originally posted by Beerina
...Sadly, by this time enough errors had accumulated that no copy of #7 self-instantiated. This pissed off #7 mightily, so he created the Earth, complete with crappy pseudo-copies called humans, and lorded over, oops, Lorded over them. The serpent, our hero in disguise gave Adam and Eve the knowledge of good and evil, which #7 (we shall call Him @$$hole) didn't want His copies knowing.

Makes a lot more sense to me. ...

Ol' #7... Now it finally makes sense. I can't say I blame him though. I'll bet the other kids made fun of him on the playground. "S'matter Seven, Cancha instantiate?" Man, that would get old fast. I think I'd invent a dog just to kick too, if it happened to me.

Side note... next time you're in the liquor store take note of the label of Jack Daniel's Whiskey - It's called 'Old No. 7'. I wonder if there's any relation.

[Ryokan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Atlas

Side note... next time you're in the liquor store take note of the label of Jack Daniel's Whiskey - It's called 'Old No. 7'. I wonder if there's any relation.

The Holy Spirit!

[curi0us]

Quote:

Originally posted by Robin
A more important question is 'is Arnie's character on Total Recall really on Mars at the end of the film, or is he really on earth experiencing a malfunctioning memory implant?'

Malfunctioning plant IMO. IIRC the girl that the recall implanters have on the monitor prior to starting the process is the love interest Arnie runs into later on, and the movie's ridiculous story becomes quite cool when one realizes that the director didn't intend it to be just accepted at face value, and the ending is a fade to white which seemed very suggestive to me. The one thing that counters that is the drop of sweat on the guy trying convince Arnie that his recall plant went FUBAR, but the way that’s filmed is kind of interesting as the close up that shows the sweat might be another moment of Arnie’s delusions taking over the recall process.

[c4ts]

Funny how Phillip K. Dick manages to pose such interesting philosophical questions and somehow they get turned into Arnie movies and John Woo flicks.

(Okay, Paycheck was good and I've got nothing against the director, but with the possible exception of Blade Runner, it's strange how often his good books become mediocre movies.)

[pmurray]

Quote:

Originally posted by Nobody
Is it possible that when the bible refers to hell, it doesn't literally mean a lake of fire where sinners and unbelievers burn ?

Sure it is! But it's not eternal. When jesus returns, everyone will be physically ressurected from the dead. Jesus will judge them, and the sinners will be physically executed by being tossed into a lake of burning pitch, or something, and "this is the second death".

[kmortis]

Quote:

Originally posted by c4ts
Funny how Phillip K. Dick manages to pose such interesting philosophical questions and somehow they get turned into Arnie movies and John Woo flicks.

(Okay, Paycheck was good and I've got nothing against the director, but with the possible exception of Blade Runner, it's strange how often his good books become mediocre movies.)

On that vein, A Scanner Darkly is slated to come out in 2005. Unfortunatly, Keanau is involved (playing Bob Arctor/Fred). OH goody, two hours of THAT particular monotone ruining another PKD story.....<sigh>

[Beerina]

Quote:

Originally posted by curi0us
[Re: Total Recall] Malfunctioning plant IMO. IIRC the girl that the recall implanters have on the monitor prior to starting the process is the love interest Arnie runs into later on, and the movie's ridiculous story becomes quite cool when one realizes that the director didn't intend it to be just accepted at face value, and the ending is a fade to white which seemed very suggestive to me. The one thing that counters that is the drop of sweat on the guy trying convince Arnie that his recall plant went FUBAR, but the way that’s filmed is kind of interesting as the close up that shows the sweat might be another moment of Arnie’s delusions taking over the recall process.

I don't even think it was a malfunctioning implant. I think the whole memory "vacation" played out exactly as intended. Remember at one point they said he was destined to save the world and get the girl, which is exactly what happened at the end.

Although she was cute, I would have requested something a little cuter, like maybe Angelina Jolie, but a little more @$$y.

[Dorian Gray]

Quote:

Originally posted by Atlas
What gets me is that his Son died for all the sins. So it's all been paid for. Even so, God feels like eternally torturing people for their sins.

I think he overpaid himself.

See, it was a trick. It wasn't really a 'sacrifice', because his son came back, so it doesn't really count. It was more of a PR thing, really.

[Beerina]

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryokan
Hell comes from the Norse Mythology Hel, a place were most souls of the dead went. Except it was pretty cold there, not warm.

And as for the Lucifer/Satan thing, there's nothing in the bible that could be interpreted to mean they were one and the same.

The Secret Origins of the Bible book, frequently hawked on the back cover of the skeptic mags, points out that "Lucifer" as the name of the devil (when he was originally God's greatest angel) might very well be a modern misinterpretation. It may very well refer to Venus or some such in the context of the Bible itself.

Then it gets into The Advocate stuff, which wasn't the Devil, either, but more or less an angel employed to question Yaweh argumentatively. "Satan" means "Advocate", and hence was not a proper name, either, at least in that context.

[Pedro Gomes]

Fancy taking Dante's Inferno Test? I was doomed to the 6th level, of the heretics...

[Hutch]

Quote:

Originally posted by Pedro Gomes
Fancy taking Dante's Inferno Test? I was doomed to the 6th level, of the heretics...

See ya there, Pedro. Took the test, I got:

Quote:

Sixth Level of Hell - The City of Dis
You approach Satan's wretched city where you behold a wide plain surrounded by iron walls. Before you are fields full of distress and torment terrible. Burning tombs are littered about the landscape. Inside these flaming sepulchers suffer the heretics, failing to believe in God and the afterlife, who make themselves audible by doleful sighs. You will join the wicked that lie here, and will be offered no respite. The three infernal Furies stained with blood, with limbs of women and hair of serpents, dwell in this circle of Hell.

[Robin]

Quote:

Originally posted by pmurray
Sure it is! But it's not eternal. When jesus returns, everyone will be physically ressurected from the dead. Jesus will judge them, and the sinners will be physically executed by being tossed into a lake of burning pitch, or something, and "this is the second death".

Matthew 25:46 "And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Of course some have suggested that 'eternal' is a mistranslation and the Greek word means 'age-abiding' or something.

But then what does that say for eternal life?

[Robin]

Quote:

Originally posted by curi0us
Malfunctioning plant IMO. IIRC the girl that the recall implanters have on the monitor prior to starting the process is the love interest Arnie runs into later on, and the movie's ridiculous story becomes quite cool when one realizes that the director didn't intend it to be just accepted at face value, and the ending is a fade to white which seemed very suggestive to me. The one thing that counters that is the drop of sweat on the guy trying convince Arnie that his recall plant went FUBAR, but the way that’s filmed is kind of interesting as the close up that shows the sweat might be another moment of Arnie’s delusions taking over the recall process.

The clincher for me is that the technician doing the implant looks at it and says "Blue skies on Mars - thats a new one".

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Hutch
See ya there, Pedro. Took the test, I got:

Mad it to the eight:

Quote:

Eigth Level of Hell - the Malebolge

Many and varied sinners suffer eternally in the multi-leveled Malebolge, an ampitheatre-shapped pit of despair Wholly of stone and of an iron colour: Those guilty of fraudulence and malice; the seducers and pimps, who are whipped by horned demons; the hypocrites, who struggle to walk in lead-lined cloaks; the barraters, who are ducked in boiling pitch by demons known as the Malebranche. The simonists, wedged into stone holes, and whose feet are licked by flames, kick and writhe desperately. The magicians, diviners, fortune tellers, and panderers are all here, as are the thieves. Some wallow in human excrement. Serpents writhe and wrap around men, sometimes fusing into each other. Bodies are torn apart. When you arrive, you will want to put your hands over your ears because of the lamentations of the sinners here, who are afflicted with scabs like leprosy, and lay sick on the ground, furiously scratching their skin off with their nails. Indeed, justice divine doth smite them with its hammer.

[Ossai]

Bikewer

Quote:

At least one early Christian sect (I forget which one, it was in Lost Christianities) believed that the OT God was indeed an insane, rogue God, who had formed the Earth as a sort of big cosmic mistake. (having fallen out of favor with the OTHER gods....)

Wasn’t that the CATHARIST from the Catholic Encyclopedia?

Ossai