Vatican astronomer asks: could you baptise ET?

shecky · 12th October 2005, 12:09 PM

New book tackles these questions and more.

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/et.html

Quote:

In: Intelligent Life in the Universe? Catholic belief and the search for
extraterrestrial intelligent life, author Guy Consolmagno SJ, asks:

Would humans recognise intelligent life if we saw it?
Could we communicate with it? Should we even try?
Is Original Sin something that affects all intelligent beings?
Is Jesus Christ's redemption valid for intelligent beings throughout the universe?
or would other worlds have their own version of Jesus?
Would the Church send missionaries to ET planets?

TragicMonkey · 12th October 2005, 01:02 PM

Penguin Island again.

c4ts · 12th October 2005, 02:48 PM

Bah! Everybody knows that the only place with intelligent life is Earth, and all those stars in the sky exist for our amusement. It says so in Genesis.

Anti_Hypeman · 12th October 2005, 03:30 PM

If the aliens gave us %100 proof of our real origins would they be called evil demons?

c4ts · 12th October 2005, 03:37 PM

Definitely. Proof is evil. The Pope says so.

Kopji · 12th October 2005, 09:52 PM

See.. I could maybe convert for that job.
Flit back and forth between Italy and Arizona. Play with big telescopes... Hobnob with the pope and chat about life on other planets.

I gather this is not the lifestyle of a normal Catholic priest though?

c4ts · 12th October 2005, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by Kopji

See.. I could maybe convert for that job.
Flit back and forth between Italy and Arizona. Play with big telescopes... Hobnob with the pope and chat about life on other planets.

I gather this is not the lifestyle of a normal Catholic priest though?

No, on account of a distinct lack of young boys.

Kopji · 12th October 2005, 10:11 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/news/church...profiles2.html

Oh there seem to be plenty around...

Beerina · 13th October 2005, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by shecky

New book tackles these questions and more.

http://www.indcatholicnews.com/et.html

I think "our" religions will have about as much success with aliens as the Aztecs did with Christianity.

We'll be a backwater place vs. larger galactic religions, or embarassed because we still have religions at all.

Nah, we shouldn't be worring about whether aliens have souls. We should be hoping they think we have souls.

c4ts · 13th October 2005, 07:21 AM

Yeah, I wouldn't go f***ing around with other intelligent races no matter how cool they may appear. I doubt they'd attempt to contact the inhabitants of the Earth unless there were something vital to their interests, and if they're advanced enough to get here by themselves, chances are it's not mankind. But in terms of raw materials, what would the Earth have to offer that an advanced civilization can't obtain somewhere else?

This whole contact scenario is starting to look very unlikely unless we go out looking for trouble.

Ryokan · 13th October 2005, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by c4ts

But in terms of raw materials, what would the Earth have to offer that an advanced civilization can't obtain somewhere else?

Chick tracts?

Iacchus · 13th October 2005, 10:04 AM

What? Aliens in the same Universe? Indeed!

So, if there were any extra-terrestrials, would they be proponents of God or, natural selection?

UrsulaV · 13th October 2005, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Chick tracts?

There's at least a short-story worth of science fiction in that idea...

Odin · 13th October 2005, 10:47 AM

If there are planets full of intelligent life with their own religions, what happens to the "appeal to popularity" Christians?

If the aliens have any religions that actively try to gain converts they might show an interest in us.

Abdul Alhazred · 13th October 2005, 11:23 AM

Why suppose that intelligent aliens are more rational than humans?

What if they already have a religion similar to Roman Catholicism?

TragicMonkey · 13th October 2005, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Why suppose that intelligent aliens are more rational than humans?

What if they already have a religion similar to Roman Catholicism?

Perhaps we'll see a situation where there's a pope and an antimatter pope.

Beerina · 13th October 2005, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Odin

If there are planets full of intelligent life with their own religions, what happens to the "appeal to popularity" Christians?

If the aliens have any religions that actively try to gain converts they might show an interest in us.

One may presume that, in an evolutionary sense, the more seductive the religion, the more converts it will take, and will slowly supplant other ones.

I would not think our religions could hold a candle to whatever one(s) have come to dominate trillions, or quadrillions, or quintillions of sentient beings.

Hence, with statistical certitude, I would expect these religions to infect the earth, rather than an earthly religion to spread significantly into the galaxy. And that's all ignoring the obvious seductive nature of the "cooler" aspect of the larger, more advanced galactic civilization, i.e. of learning we are the provincial -- and soon our children will run around wearing galactic civilization's equivalent to 7-11 T-shirts, the way people in 3rd world countries run around with Coke T-shirts.

TragicMonkey · 13th October 2005, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

-- and soon our children will run around wearing galactic civilization's equivalent to 7-11 T-shirts, the way people in 3rd world countries run around with Coke T-shirts.

"Drink Xzyzzxyxnor!"

UrsulaV · 13th October 2005, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Perhaps we'll see a situation where there's a pope and an antimatter pope.

Naturally, the mirror-universe pope will have a beard...

TragicMonkey · 13th October 2005, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by UrsulaV

Naturally, the mirror-universe pope will have a beard...

She'll look a bit odd, then.

c4ts · 13th October 2005, 03:52 PM

Like the fundies don't already worship Bizzaro Pope...

ceo_esq · 13th October 2005, 04:55 PM

These have been mentioned in other threads, but the science-fiction novel The Sparrow and its sequel Children of God, by Mary Doria Russell, tell the story of a failed Jesuit first contact mission to another planet. They're both well-written. I recommend them if you don't mind heavily philosophical SF.

A good history-of-science book about the philosophical questions raised by the possibility of E.T. is The Extraterrestrial Life Debate, 1750-1900.

c4ts · 13th October 2005, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Chick tracts?

Another reason for intelligent life to avoid Earth like the plague.

Beerina · 14th October 2005, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

"Drink Xzyzzxyxnor!"

And the truth? We would! Big time.

hgc · 14th October 2005, 07:19 AM

This sounds suspiciously like a question Bart Simpson would ask in Sunday School -- to drive the teacher crazy.

Roboramma · 14th October 2005, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Why suppose that intelligent aliens are more rational than humans?

What if they already have a religion similar to Roman Catholicism?

Or maybe they'll actually be roman catholic?
Now that is something that would make me rethink my views on religion. Unless of course the aliens were just playing an elaborate joke on us, "Yeah, we believe that God impregnated a woman with himself so that he could be tortured and killed by us to make up for a long dead couple eating an apple. Because you know, he told them not to eat it after all. Oh, and because of all that you should pray to God's mother/rape victim to forgive you for all the bad things you do."

Seriously, one big question I have for the religious is why didn't god bother telling anyone else about his existance? Why is it that hinduism didn't arrise in south africa, or christianity in North America? If one of these religions is right, after all, why did God only present himself to one people, and then wait for them to tell everybody else the news?

And if he did, what if they died out like so many cultures do? What if the Aztecs were the ones who had it all right?

So if aliens showed up sharing someone's religious belief, well... I'd have to reconsider it. If they didn't, I'd have to ask, "What, God forgot about them too?"

c4ts · 14th October 2005, 09:42 AM

What if the Aztecs were right? You forgot about the enormous possibility of mighty Elzoob, which would include all Aztec and Catholic beliefs, plus every single belief that is a direct contradiction of them...

Roboramma · 14th October 2005, 09:57 AM

I might, if I hadn't discovered my alphabet soup decoder ring, which led me to ask the prophet in the street which way the flies were, and when he said left, of course I knew that meant that I should hop backwards on one foot until pooped on by a pidgeon.

When this happened I knew I was in the right place, and since then I have been counting the number of flies that go into and out of a certain dumpster. This is the holy service of Elzoob, that any rational person who does not wish eternal torment would undertake. Of course since then I have not had the time to concider anything but flies.

By the way, I'm at 10,598 so far. Lucky for me they seem to rest at night.

Beerina · 16th October 2005, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by c4ts

What if the Aztecs were right? You forgot about the enormous possibility of mighty Elzoob, which would include all Aztec and Catholic beliefs, plus every single belief that is a direct contradiction of them...

Oh, I make no claim as to which, if any, might be right, nor that the more seductive the religion, the more likely it is to be true. Suppose some animist religion were the True one -- how sad for that god that his religion sucks at getting converts in modern society.

Roboramma · 16th October 2005, 09:19 AM

Or how happy?
Maybe the reason there's no evidence for god is that it really hates being worshipped?

12th October 2005, 12:09 PM	#1
shecky Master Poster Join Date: May 2002 Location: Home of the Homeless Posts: 2,190	Vatican astronomer asks: could you baptise ET? New book tackles these questions and more. http://www.indcatholicnews.com/et.html Quote: In: Intelligent Life in the Universe? Catholic belief and the search for extraterrestrial intelligent life, author Guy Consolmagno SJ, asks: Would humans recognise intelligent life if we saw it? Could we communicate with it? Should we even try? Is Original Sin something that affects all intelligent beings? Is Jesus Christ's redemption valid for intelligent beings throughout the universe? or would other worlds have their own version of Jesus? Would the Church send missionaries to ET planets?

12th October 2005, 01:02 PM	#2
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Penguin Island again.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

12th October 2005, 02:48 PM	#3
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Bah! Everybody knows that the only place with intelligent life is Earth, and all those stars in the sky exist for our amusement. It says so in Genesis.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

12th October 2005, 03:37 PM	#5
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Definitely. Proof is evil. The Pope says so.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

12th October 2005, 10:04 PM	#7
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by Kopji See.. I could maybe convert for that job. Flit back and forth between Italy and Arizona. Play with big telescopes... Hobnob with the pope and chat about life on other planets. I gather this is not the lifestyle of a normal Catholic priest though? No, on account of a distinct lack of young boys.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

12th October 2005, 03:30 PM	#4
Anti_Hypeman Death Dealing Doom Machine Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,011	If the aliens gave us %100 proof of our real origins would they be called evil demons?

12th October 2005, 09:52 PM	#6
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	See.. I could maybe convert for that job. Flit back and forth between Italy and Arizona. Play with big telescopes... Hobnob with the pope and chat about life on other planets. I gather this is not the lifestyle of a normal Catholic priest though?

12th October 2005, 10:11 PM	#8
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	http://www.azcentral.com/news/church...profiles2.html Oh there seem to be plenty around...

13th October 2005, 07:00 AM	#9
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by shecky New book tackles these questions and more. http://www.indcatholicnews.com/et.html I think "our" religions will have about as much success with aliens as the Aztecs did with Christianity. We'll be a backwater place vs. larger galactic religions, or embarassed because we still have religions at all. Nah, we shouldn't be worring about whether aliens have souls. We should be hoping they think we have souls.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

13th October 2005, 07:21 AM	#10
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Yeah, I wouldn't go f***ing around with other intelligent races no matter how cool they may appear. I doubt they'd attempt to contact the inhabitants of the Earth unless there were something vital to their interests, and if they're advanced enough to get here by themselves, chances are it's not mankind. But in terms of raw materials, what would the Earth have to offer that an advanced civilization can't obtain somewhere else? This whole contact scenario is starting to look very unlikely unless we go out looking for trouble.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

13th October 2005, 08:23 AM	#11
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 8,171	Originally Posted by c4ts But in terms of raw materials, what would the Earth have to offer that an advanced civilization can't obtain somewhere else? Chick tracts?

13th October 2005, 10:04 AM	#12
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	What? Aliens in the same Universe? Indeed! So, if there were any extra-terrestrials, would they be proponents of God or, natural selection?

13th October 2005, 10:10 AM	#13
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957	Originally Posted by Ryokan Chick tracts? There's at least a short-story worth of science fiction in that idea...
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957

13th October 2005, 10:47 AM	#14
Odin Atheistic Aesir Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Asgard Posts: 808	If there are planets full of intelligent life with their own religions, what happens to the "appeal to popularity" Christians? If the aliens have any religions that actively try to gain converts they might show an interest in us.
	__________________ Nothing to see here "Then we didn't evolve! The system has been feeding us THE BIG LIE!" -Jack T Chick "Educators are actually evil for refusing to teach students Nature's 4 World Time Cube." -Gene Ray "Leo Jean has attained the highest spiritual status of any person on Earth. His spirit is one of the oldest and most powerful in the universe, and is the most powerful on Earth." -Leo Jean

13th October 2005, 11:23 AM	#15
Abdul Alhazred Yes, that one. Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 5,475	Why suppose that intelligent aliens are more rational than humans? What if they already have a religion similar to Roman Catholicism?
	__________________ The lack of a rational explanation is not evidence for an irrational explanation.

13th October 2005, 11:28 AM	#16
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred Why suppose that intelligent aliens are more rational than humans? What if they already have a religion similar to Roman Catholicism? Perhaps we'll see a situation where there's a pope and an antimatter pope.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

13th October 2005, 12:19 PM	#17
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by Odin If there are planets full of intelligent life with their own religions, what happens to the "appeal to popularity" Christians? If the aliens have any religions that actively try to gain converts they might show an interest in us. One may presume that, in an evolutionary sense, the more seductive the religion, the more converts it will take, and will slowly supplant other ones. I would not think our religions could hold a candle to whatever one(s) have come to dominate trillions, or quadrillions, or quintillions of sentient beings. Hence, with statistical certitude, I would expect these religions to infect the earth, rather than an earthly religion to spread significantly into the galaxy. And that's all ignoring the obvious seductive nature of the "cooler" aspect of the larger, more advanced galactic civilization, i.e. of learning we are the provincial -- and soon our children will run around wearing galactic civilization's equivalent to 7-11 T-shirts, the way people in 3rd world countries run around with Coke T-shirts.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

13th October 2005, 12:34 PM	#18
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by Beerina -- and soon our children will run around wearing galactic civilization's equivalent to 7-11 T-shirts, the way people in 3rd world countries run around with Coke T-shirts. "Drink Xzyzzxyxnor!"
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

13th October 2005, 03:23 PM	#19
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Perhaps we'll see a situation where there's a pope and an antimatter pope. Naturally, the mirror-universe pope will have a beard...
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957

13th October 2005, 03:35 PM	#20
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	Originally Posted by UrsulaV Naturally, the mirror-universe pope will have a beard... She'll look a bit odd, then.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

13th October 2005, 03:52 PM	#21
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Like the fundies don't already worship Bizzaro Pope...
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

13th October 2005, 04:55 PM	#22
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940	These have been mentioned in other threads, but the science-fiction novel The Sparrow and its sequel Children of God, by Mary Doria Russell, tell the story of a failed Jesuit first contact mission to another planet. They're both well-written. I recommend them if you don't mind heavily philosophical SF. A good history-of-science book about the philosophical questions raised by the possibility of E.T. is The Extraterrestrial Life Debate, 1750-1900.
ceo_esq Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 4,940

13th October 2005, 05:05 PM	#23
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by Ryokan Chick tracts? Another reason for intelligent life to avoid Earth like the plague.
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

14th October 2005, 06:12 AM	#24
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey "Drink Xzyzzxyxnor!" And the truth? We would! Big time.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

14th October 2005, 07:19 AM	#25
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,002	This sounds suspiciously like a question Bart Simpson would ask in Sunday School -- to drive the teacher crazy.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

14th October 2005, 09:36 AM	#26
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,095	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred Why suppose that intelligent aliens are more rational than humans? What if they already have a religion similar to Roman Catholicism? Or maybe they'll actually be roman catholic? Now that is something that would make me rethink my views on religion. Unless of course the aliens were just playing an elaborate joke on us, "Yeah, we believe that God impregnated a woman with himself so that he could be tortured and killed by us to make up for a long dead couple eating an apple. Because you know, he told them not to eat it after all. Oh, and because of all that you should pray to God's mother/rape victim to forgive you for all the bad things you do." Seriously, one big question I have for the religious is why didn't god bother telling anyone else about his existance? Why is it that hinduism didn't arrise in south africa, or christianity in North America? If one of these religions is right, after all, why did God only present himself to one people, and then wait for them to tell everybody else the news? And if he did, what if they died out like so many cultures do? What if the Aztecs were the ones who had it all right? So if aliens showed up sharing someone's religious belief, well... I'd have to reconsider it. If they didn't, I'd have to ask, "What, God forgot about them too?"

14th October 2005, 09:42 AM	#27
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	What if the Aztecs were right? You forgot about the enormous possibility of mighty Elzoob, which would include all Aztec and Catholic beliefs, plus every single belief that is a direct contradiction of them...
	__________________ Ha ha ha ha.... Stupid signature size limit.

14th October 2005, 09:57 AM	#28
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,095	I might, if I hadn't discovered my alphabet soup decoder ring, which led me to ask the prophet in the street which way the flies were, and when he said left, of course I knew that meant that I should hop backwards on one foot until pooped on by a pidgeon. When this happened I knew I was in the right place, and since then I have been counting the number of flies that go into and out of a certain dumpster. This is the holy service of Elzoob, that any rational person who does not wish eternal torment would undertake. Of course since then I have not had the time to concider anything but flies. By the way, I'm at 10,598 so far. Lucky for me they seem to rest at night.

16th October 2005, 08:55 AM	#29
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by c4ts What if the Aztecs were right? You forgot about the enormous possibility of mighty Elzoob, which would include all Aztec and Catholic beliefs, plus every single belief that is a direct contradiction of them... Oh, I make no claim as to which, if any, might be right, nor that the more seductive the religion, the more likely it is to be true. Suppose some animist religion were the True one -- how sad for that god that his religion sucks at getting converts in modern society.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

16th October 2005, 09:19 AM	#30
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,095	Or how happy? Maybe the reason there's no evidence for god is that it really hates being worshipped?