Magicians' protocol

teacher · 29th November 2005, 08:49 PM

Following some discussion and disagrement on this topic, I thought it worthy of its own thread, given that some are dubious of the ethics/protocol of some magicians. See the 'Derren Brown' thread for an insight into this. Here's the question:

"To what extent, if any, should a magician/illusionist be ethically bound to refute the use of paranormal or psychic powers to the audience and if so how often or in what way"

or

"To what extent, if any, should a magician/illusionist be able to freely conjur neutrally - simply without reference to paranormal/psychic ability."

In other words, are magicians obliged to say 'this is just a natural trick' or, as long as they don't claim to use special powers, is it O.K.?

Feel free to respond to either side of this same question or state your own protocol and/or mention other magicians. You might also argue against exposing of trade secrets, e.g. P&T, the masked magician etc. as a valid part of this thread - magicians protocol.

Rufo · 30th November 2005, 02:03 AM

In my opinion, a conjurer should act like Santa Claus. That is, if you're dressed up as Santa you don't keep stating over and over that you're not the real Santa, since the very point is that you're trying to seem like the real Santa. However, that doesn't mean you'll say that Santa exists if someone asks you at another occasion. Same thing goes for conjurers. While conjuring, you're pretending to have supernatural powers, so saying that you don't would ruin it a bit. Most people still understand that it's fake, as with Santa. However, if someone asks you when you're not conjuring, it's a matter of personal moral. Telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist might be difficult for some people, so telling someone you're not a real magician is difficult for the same people. I don't feel someone is breaking a 'protocol' if they lie about this, though it's definately a questionable behaviour.

Checkmite · 30th November 2005, 08:54 AM

A magician is a performer, so while performing you like to stay in character. I don't think that means insisting you have "paranormal abilities"; I don't do that. Instead I leave it up to each spectator to form their own opinion - while in character, I won't confirm or deny anybody's individual theories, whatever those happen to be. You don't interrupt a stage actor to ask him if he's really Oberon.

On the other hand, if I'm not performing, and somebody asks, I will generally explain that my illusions are that - illusions. Without explaining how they work, of course.

Garrette · 30th November 2005, 09:33 AM

I think the Santa Claus analogy is a good starting point. I also think we'll never nail it down specifically. I certainly haven't nailed it down specifically even for myself.

I don't perform an act, but I frequently do impromptu bits here and there when called on (just did one at a working lunch yesterday). I frequently will play up the "I have special powers angle" when I'm on. Of course, I generally do it in an obvious tongue-in-cheek manner. When not "on", I answer truthfully or, at a minimum, with ambiguous questions in response, generally meant to provoke thought (though probably not always successful).

I don't recall Johnny Carson ever claiming he had no powers when doing The Great Carnac (sp?). Does anyone think he was being deceitful?

svengali · 11th December 2005, 04:55 AM

A magician is under no obligation whatever to say "this is a natural trick". In fact it would be foolish for him to do so and would indeed destroy the theatrical illusion. Besides if people are daft enough to think he has real powers they either live in California or require psychiatric treatment.

However there is utterly no need for him to go to other extreme and walk around in real life claiming to have real powers since intelligent people would consider it extremely irritating. Instead of being a conjurer you become a conjuring bore.

However mentalism is a different kettle of fish and perhaps different rules apply. I shall think about this and pontificate in a moment...............

I have now thunk and I shall now pontificate. It seems to me to be rather a daft proposition for a mentalist to come on stage and claim that what he does is a trick. Having said that the late David Hoy did precisely that. He told the audience he was a fake but they refused to believe it. I personally prefer the technique used by the Piddingtons who used to infuriate people (including their grandchildren) by saying to enquirers "you be the judges"

I have a different technique entirely which I prefer not to go into at the present time. I find it suits my style.

The late great Maurice Fogel recommended that you do not take on the proposition that you have real powers too strongly. He said you can imply it but not come out openly saying it.

I don't give a damn if people think I have real powers or not. I am there for the purposes of ENTERTAINMENT. As long as nobody throws anything and the cheque clears I am quite happy.

However I am under no obligation to give disclaimers either. People don't believe them anyway and as far as I am concerned if they are daft enough to believe I can read minds that is up to them. I have my own problems.

Besides

"A man convinced against his will
is of the same opinion still"

Ed · 17th January 2006, 06:42 AM

If you make money on the basis of your talent that is quite cool. If you make money based on unsupportable claims that is not.

29th November 2005, 08:49 PM	#1
teacher Scholar Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 119	Magicians' protocol Following some discussion and disagrement on this topic, I thought it worthy of its own thread, given that some are dubious of the ethics/protocol of some magicians. See the 'Derren Brown' thread for an insight into this. Here's the question: "To what extent, if any, should a magician/illusionist be ethically bound to refute the use of paranormal or psychic powers to the audience and if so how often or in what way" or "To what extent, if any, should a magician/illusionist be able to freely conjur neutrally - simply without reference to paranormal/psychic ability." In other words, are magicians obliged to say 'this is just a natural trick' or, as long as they don't claim to use special powers, is it O.K.? Feel free to respond to either side of this same question or state your own protocol and/or mention other magicians. You might also argue against exposing of trade secrets, e.g. P&T, the masked magician etc. as a valid part of this thread - magicians protocol.

30th November 2005, 02:03 AM	#2
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	In my opinion, a conjurer should act like Santa Claus. That is, if you're dressed up as Santa you don't keep stating over and over that you're not the real Santa, since the very point is that you're trying to seem like the real Santa. However, that doesn't mean you'll say that Santa exists if someone asks you at another occasion. Same thing goes for conjurers. While conjuring, you're pretending to have supernatural powers, so saying that you don't would ruin it a bit. Most people still understand that it's fake, as with Santa. However, if someone asks you when you're not conjuring, it's a matter of personal moral. Telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist might be difficult for some people, so telling someone you're not a real magician is difficult for the same people. I don't feel someone is breaking a 'protocol' if they lie about this, though it's definately a questionable behaviour.
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196

30th November 2005, 08:54 AM	#3
Checkmite Skepticifimisticalationist Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Third in line Posts: 14,896	A magician is a performer, so while performing you like to stay in character. I don't think that means insisting you have "paranormal abilities"; I don't do that. Instead I leave it up to each spectator to form their own opinion - while in character, I won't confirm or deny anybody's individual theories, whatever those happen to be. You don't interrupt a stage actor to ask him if he's really Oberon. On the other hand, if I'm not performing, and somebody asks, I will generally explain that my illusions are that - illusions. Without explaining how they work, of course.
	__________________ "¿WHAT KIND OF BIRD? ¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?" --- Carlos S., 2002

17th January 2006, 06:42 AM	#6
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	If you make money on the basis of your talent that is quite cool. If you make money based on unsupportable claims that is not.
Ed god Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,691	__________________ "The history of science is the record of dead religions" Phrases And Philosophies For The Use Of The Young Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) Our Guarentee: One obscure (or not) Python reference per day.

30th November 2005, 09:33 AM	#4
Garrette Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 10,555	I think the Santa Claus analogy is a good starting point. I also think we'll never nail it down specifically. I certainly haven't nailed it down specifically even for myself. I don't perform an act, but I frequently do impromptu bits here and there when called on (just did one at a working lunch yesterday). I frequently will play up the "I have special powers angle" when I'm on. Of course, I generally do it in an obvious tongue-in-cheek manner. When not "on", I answer truthfully or, at a minimum, with ambiguous questions in response, generally meant to provoke thought (though probably not always successful). I don't recall Johnny Carson ever claiming he had no powers when doing The Great Carnac (sp?). Does anyone think he was being deceitful?

11th December 2005, 04:55 AM	#5
svengali Banned SP of Mark Lewis Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 51	A magician is under no obligation whatever to say "this is a natural trick". In fact it would be foolish for him to do so and would indeed destroy the theatrical illusion. Besides if people are daft enough to think he has real powers they either live in California or require psychiatric treatment. However there is utterly no need for him to go to other extreme and walk around in real life claiming to have real powers since intelligent people would consider it extremely irritating. Instead of being a conjurer you become a conjuring bore. However mentalism is a different kettle of fish and perhaps different rules apply. I shall think about this and pontificate in a moment............... I have now thunk and I shall now pontificate. It seems to me to be rather a daft proposition for a mentalist to come on stage and claim that what he does is a trick. Having said that the late David Hoy did precisely that. He told the audience he was a fake but they refused to believe it. I personally prefer the technique used by the Piddingtons who used to infuriate people (including their grandchildren) by saying to enquirers "you be the judges" I have a different technique entirely which I prefer not to go into at the present time. I find it suits my style. The late great Maurice Fogel recommended that you do not take on the proposition that you have real powers too strongly. He said you can imply it but not come out openly saying it. I don't give a damn if people think I have real powers or not. I am there for the purposes of ENTERTAINMENT. As long as nobody throws anything and the cheque clears I am quite happy. However I am under no obligation to give disclaimers either. People don't believe them anyway and as far as I am concerned if they are daft enough to believe I can read minds that is up to them. I have my own problems. Besides "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still"