Why don't babies know how to work on furnaces? - Page 2

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Phil

Some of us have more in our genes than others.

works better spoken

Give some examples as to what some have and what some don't have, please.

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Genesius

It's quite simple.

There is no God, therefore no problem.

Happy to be of service.

You know?...it's quite possible you are right? But I still have some life in me, and I want to use analytical approaches and be able to come to a very sound conclusion on this, someday. The answer to all this will bridge science AND philosphy, I think. But it be nice if I could come to some determination on all this sooner than later...BEFORE I lose my faculties. My dad's side of the family all went nuts by the time they reached 75.

DreadNiK · 25th January 2006, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

But alas...the baby is NOT void of CERTAIN knowledge. The knowledge the baby inherited is like what we would call instinct. Why would a baby know how to flinch....but NOT know how to start a campfire? Hmmmmm. Hasn't man made fires long enough that the knowledge of how to do this should be in our genes by now?

Originally Posted by Iamme

What is so stupid about it?... Even though your response elicited a guffaw out of me.

Ignoring all your questions about why god did what, which are all parsimoniously answered by 'there is no god involved here', you have just demonstrated a total lack of understanding of school level biology. To claim that you are making insightful and important posts is totally undermined by your total lack of basic knowledge about the topics you post on.

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme :
Good question, isn't it?

(Roboramma)
It could be. If you were interested in a meaningful answer, I might say yes. But the way it looks from your post, alas... no it's not.

Iamme: I AM looing for a meaningful answer.
I think one can use the answer to this to help determine if a higher power, like a God, programmed man for some purpose.

(Robarama)
Or if perhaps it fits perfectly with our understanding of nature. Surprise surprise, it does.

(Iamme)
Being that God is all omniscient and supposedly got everything right the first time.....

(Roboramma)
Funny, I thought he messed up with the whole tree of knowledge thing...

Iamme: I too have issues with some of the stories in the Bible. But I'm not about to discredit intelligent design entirely, because of it. It is quite conceivable that the reason men thought the Bible was inspired by men, is from the fact that certain truths are self-evident, and the author(s) of the books in the Bible, through this inspiration, or inner knowledge, got certain things right. And perhaps things they got wrong, they weren't all to far off on, with some of it.

Let me go off on a tangent here and give you an example or two: AIDS. Skeptics mock that God had anything to do with this curse. But are you so sure? Wouldn't you admit that AIDS spread as a result of unNATURal engagements between men? Or, take the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, and tsunamis and mudslides, and ozone hole, and global warming, etc. The skeptic scoffs at the fundamentalist that says that God is causing all this for man's transgressions against God's perfect earth. Well, to put it this way does make it sound like a loon is spewing forth rubbish. But, in actuallity, is there not some truth that the earth has gotten off kilter and some of these things are the earths way to clean things up?

(Iamme)
I can't figure out for the LIFE of me (so far) why on earth God, who gave man a limited number of years on the earth...who apreciates it when man helps out his fellow man...only for the man to have to start from scratch and learn things for like 20 years (and I'm just talking basics here, as we all continue to learn through life, if we are open to learning knew things)....

(Roboramma)
You can't figure out why a non-existant entity wouldn't imbue you with all the knowledge you want...
I can't figure out why faeries don't tie my shoes together. I guess we're in the same boat.

Iamme: You don't know for a fact the entity does not exist. A fairy IS silly, but a supreme entity that is one step above us does not sound illogical, in the face of the fact that we can't explain what the driving force is behind a universe that is supposed to have started, somehow, and is supposed to be running itself down. You tell me what sustains the power of a magnet.

(Iamme)
But alas...the baby is NOT void of CERTAIN knowledge. The knowledge the baby inherited is like what we would call instinct. Why would a baby know how to flinch....but NOT know how to start a campfire? Hmmmmm. Hasn't man made fires long enough that the knowledge of how to do this should be in our genes by now?

(Roboramma)
Not really. This isn't a bad question. But you have to think about the answer. Why do we have to learn anything?
I'll give you my own poor attempt at an answer.

Iamme: Good.

(Roborama)
We aren't the only species to do so. Why do birds have to learn to fly?

Iamme: Good point. Yet, aren't bird's migratory knowqledge attributed to instinct? Or the ability to catch a worm? Or, to fly? There are certain things that the baby(animal, bird, etc.) observes and develops skills from it's mother...but not all of it. And I'm trying to figure out why only certain things are instinctive (in the genes?), and other things are not. I'm sitting here trying to think of a 'killer' example of what for sure can't be taught in the animal wortld, and HAS TO be instinct, and is a relatively complex instinct at that. I thought of one!; a bat's ability to use radar. If a bat inherited this type of ability, then why weren't humans born with an ability to (thinking) walk? or, by virtue they have no inclination to walk (without observing other people), that this might actually bolster the claim that man was a creature on all fours (as baby's want to crawl first) and only recently (in relation to our existance ) learned to stand upright?

I realize that baby's perhaps can't calculate 1 + 1 at birth due to the fact that the baby would first have to posess the ability to be able to talk and reason with itself. But with THAt remark, one wonders why then that a baby doesn't possess the ability to reason with itself...unless, the baby's brain is not developed fully yet, even after birth? I also realize that for a baby to conduct an excercize in reason, that the ability for the baby (person) to be able to talk to itself, sure helps.

But our dialogue here is interesting and helping make this question more easy to understand.

(Roborama)
Why do chimpanzees have to learn how to crack nuts? Or to fish for termites? Or if those technologies are too recent (more recent than fire? I don't know), why do any animals play? To learn the vital skills of life.

So, why is this necessary? Why aren't they born with this knowledge, full and intact?
Simple, it's not possible, or at least less economical. Here's a demonstration of something similar. Did you know that the eye has to figure out how to wire itself with the rest of the brain? If you cover up one eye in a baby of a certain age for the critical amount of time, they'll go blind in that eye. Why? Because the eye has to learn how to see, basically.
Because it's not really possible to specify exactly how those connections should be made. But our genes give rules of development that in this environment tend to create the right connections.

Learning is similar. And what's great about it is that it works in many different environments. We could have genes that allow us to be born with a specific knowledge of how to start a fire. Or we could be born with the ability to learn this from our parents, as well as the ability to learn a great many other things.
When humans first started playing with fire, they had the ability to learn. It's that that's been enhanced by evolution, and so there hasn't really been much selective pressure for intuitive fire making. Though probably there's been some for being better at learning to make a fire. Which at a certain point might become the same thing.
The great thing about learning is it's versatility. And considering how quickly our environments are changing, we should be glad of that.

Iamme: Thanks for your reply, that you spent time and gave serious thought to.

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Roboramma :
So, why is this necessary? Why aren't they born with this knowledge, full and intact?
Simple, it's not possible, or at least less economical.

(Belz)
Not only that, but if we knew everything from the start, that'd limit our ability to adapt to situations not foreseen by the genetic makeup.

(Iamme)
I agree that learned behavior has it's stong suits. But I still wonder, based on the fact that we know that certain information is indeed passed through the genome, that one, like me, anyway, wonders why more is NOT.

This is interesting isn't it? I think evolutionists could be interested in a dialogue like this, as it makes you think why and why not, and can actually maybe help determine how long some information was in the animals/humans brains, for how many X generations , in determining when information finally enters the genes.

slingblade · 25th January 2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

"Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?" ~ Matthew 6:26

Evidently not, since "God" has seen fit to let me go hungry more than once.

However, since I cast off that crazy thinking, I've never missed a meal. I'm more responsible to me and for me than "God" ever was.

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by DreadNiK

Ignoring all your questions about why god did what, which are all parsimoniously answered by 'there is no god involved here', you have just demonstrated a total lack of understanding of school level biology. To claim that you are making insightful and important posts is totally undermined by your total lack of basic knowledge about the topics you post on.

Hmph!

If we all knew everything we all should perhaps have learned and should know, then we should all be able to just go our own ways and live in a shell and not question anything or the meaning of anything, because we should just know. Sheesh!!!!

I suppose YOU have thought of a question like I raised, and then went, "Nahhhh...I ain't going to post it. Too dumb. Everyone already knows the answer and I don't want to look like a fool."

Ya, right.

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Genesius

Nature didn't "design" humans to be anything. Nature has no intellect, therefore it is incapable of foreseeing ....

You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain?

And IF, let's say, that there IS some driving force behingd this that we have failed to recognize so far (I'll call this force 'God')...that if it had the power to will this into existance, that it doesn't also have the knowldedge to foresee?..at least to some point? WE can "see something coming", as the saying goes, for certian 'givens'. What makes you think that something that is more powerful and smarter than us (and what makes you think we are the absolute smartest thing in the universe?) would not only be able to hedge a bet on some 'given', but do even better at this than what we could possilby imagine?

Bone_Vulture · 25th January 2006, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

Ya, right.

Whar else is there to say?

Iamme · 25th January 2006, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Starrman

See - the first time God made everyone, they all DID know how to work on furnaces upon being born. Then god slapped his head and realized that there were no furnaces and that all of his people lived in the damn desert anyway! In his infinite Wisdon, he picked a guy called Noah and his family and zapped the gene for knowing how to fix furnaces out of their bodies. Since that took quite a bit of effort, he decided it would just be easier to drown everyone else, and let Noah and his family's non-furnace-fixing-inate-knowledge having a#ses repopulate the world from there.

There!

I think you just made Jekyll happy.

Marquis de Carabas · 25th January 2006, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

What is so stupid about it?...

It showed a gross and willful ignorance of evolution and the way it works. I call this ignorance willful because you have been pointed toward books which would answer many of your questions, and give you a basic understanding as a foundation to further explore other, more meaningful, and ultimately interesting, questions, yet you have steadfastly refused to do so.

Quote:

Even though your response elicited a guffaw out of me.

Always glad to be of service.

Beleth · 25th January 2006, 05:34 PM

In the history of human existence, how many humans had to know how to work on furnaces?

Compare that to the number of humans who had to flinch.

If it came down to "learn how a furnace works or lose an eye and starve to death because of it", then by golly, we'd all know how to work on furnaces as babies.

UrsulaV · 25th January 2006, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain?

Yes.

Ladewig · 25th January 2006, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

Let me go off on a tangent here and give you an example or two: AIDS. Skeptics mock that God had anything to do with this curse. But are you so sure? Wouldn't you admit that AIDS spread as a result of unNATURal engagements between men?

It also spread through sharing that most unNATRUAL of inventions, the hypodermic needle. It is also spread through the very unNATURAL medical proceedure of a blood transfusion. It is also spread through the unNATURAL act of childbirth - oops, that's NATURAL, looks like God's aim at sinners is pretty bad if innocent babies are suffering and dying for other people's sins. I guess the skeptics are right to mock people who suggest that AIDS is a curse from God.

Quote:

Or, take the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, and tsunamis and mudslides, and ozone hole, and global warming, etc. The skeptic scoffs at the fundamentalist that says that God is causing all this for man's transgressions against God's perfect earth. Well, to put it this way does make it sound like a loon is spewing forth rubbish. But, in actuality, is there not some truth that the earth has gotten off kilter and some of these things are the earth's way to clean things up?

Would you explain precisely what you mean by "off kilter" and also explain how hurricanes, earthquakes and floods "clean things up" (I assume you mean put things back "on kilter")?

Also, you are incorrect that fundamentalists believe all those things are the result of God's anger at "man's transgressions against God's perfect earth." Christian fundamentalists believe that man has been given the earth for his use. Some C.f. (e.g. P. Robertson, F. Phelps) believe those natural disaters are the result of man turning away from God's laws, but that is very different from what you are concluding.

Ladewig · 25th January 2006, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

Originally Posted by Iamme :
You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain?

Originally Posted by UrsulaV

Yes.

You can put me down as a yes also.

Iacchus · 25th January 2006, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by Beleth

If it came down to "learn how a furnace works or lose an eye and starve to death because of it", then by golly, we'd all know how to work on furnaces as babies.

Well, we should at least all be required to get our GED's.

Ladewig · 25th January 2006, 08:06 PM

As to the original question, would you have God give every single person born the knowledge to fix and operate all furnaces, air conditioners, and small appliances; to diagnose and treat all illnesses; to design, build, and operate all ships, planes, cars, trucks, trains, and space vehicles; to derive and apply all forms of mathematics; to speak all languages?

David Swidler · 26th January 2006, 01:37 AM

I just want the ability to find the missing jigsaw puzzle pieces.

Belz... · 26th January 2006, 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Yes, and when man finally establishes his own ecological niche (which he has obviously yet to do), his will be the only one left. We could say goodbye to the nature we once knew in other words.

Ah, as usual your answer has nothing to do with my statement.

Belz... · 26th January 2006, 04:51 AM

Originally Posted by Iacchus

Then it shouldn't require us to be intelligent should it?

It doesn't. Haven't you learned anything, here ?

Belz... · 26th January 2006, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Iamme

You know?...it's quite possible you are right? But I still have some life in me, and I want to use analytical approaches and be able to come to a very sound conclusion on this, someday. The answer to all this will bridge science AND philosphy.

Philosophy is like some old, distant ancestor of science. Why would you want to bring that one back ?

Originally Posted by Iamme

You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain?

Oh, quite.

Genesius · 26th January 2006, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by Iamme

You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain?

Originally Posted by UrsulaV

Yes.

Possibly the most concise and intelligent answer in this entire thread. I'd nominate it for the language award, but I'm sure the sheer jealousy of the other nominees would lead them to hunt you down and do terrible things to you. I just couldn't have that on my conscience.

Iamme, why don't you & Iacchus elope, run off to a deserted island and leave the rest of us alone? My sanity would be better off without your silly posts.

kmortis · 26th January 2006, 05:29 AM

UrsulaV · 26th January 2006, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by Genesius

Possibly the most concise and intelligent answer in this entire thread. I'd nominate it for the language award, but I'm sure the sheer jealousy of the other nominees would lead them to hunt you down and do terrible things to you. I just couldn't have that on my conscience.

Oh, well, and rightly so. But I appreciate the thought, anyhow!

Starrman · 26th January 2006, 10:12 AM

Originally Posted by David Swidler

I just want the ability to find the missing jigsaw puzzle pieces.

Have you checked in the dog poop?

DarkMagician · 26th January 2006, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jekyll

This thread title deserves better than this thread.

Come on people, find a punchline!

My kid worked fine. He burned really well.

Iacchus · 26th January 2006, 02:49 PM

I supposedly burned the soles of my feet (bad enough to go to the hospital) when I walked across a furnace grate when I was very young.

Ladewig · 27th January 2006, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Would you explain precisely what you mean by "off kilter" and also explain how hurricanes, earthquakes and floods "clean things up" (I assume you mean put things back "on kilter")?

bumped for an answer.

Ausmerican · 28th January 2006, 09:12 PM

Babies don't work on furnaces because everyone knows you dont cook babies on a furnace. a hibachi grill is the obvious choice. Babies do however work well IN furnaces as the high fat content burns quite well.

c4ts · 30th January 2006, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

Good question, isn't it?

Actually there is something profound in this, somewhere.

I think one can use the answer to this to help determine if a higher power, like a God, programmed man for some purpose.

Being that God is all omniscient and supposedly got everything right the first time.....

I can't figure out for the LIFE of me (so far) why on earth God, who gave man a limited number of years on the earth...who apreciates it when man helps out his fellow man...only for the man to have to start from scratch and learn things for like 20 years (and I'm just talking basics here, as we all continue to learn through life, if we are open to learning knew things)....

Doesn't this seem like a real waste for a parent to have to train up kids and have them schooled for 18+ years just to get them to a point that the parents themselves have already been at? Isn't this a waste of valuable, precious, unrecoverable time? Why would a powerful God make a baby have to be born, basically void of knowledge???????

But alas...the baby is NOT void of CERTAIN knowledge. The knowledge the baby inherited is like what we would call instinct. Why would a baby know how to flinch....but NOT know how to start a campfire? Hmmmmm. Hasn't man made fires long enough that the knowledge of how to do this should be in our genes by now?

Can any of you add further to the wonder of this mystery and mention things that babies already are born with and that which you think maybe they SHOULD have been born with? And why would God make each successive generation to have to go to school to relearn what the parents already know? Isn't this kinda dumb? (Sorry God. Please do not cause a lightning bolt or tornado to come after me for my questioning)

The way you've constructed the universe to work, they should know. But they don't. It's far more likely that you're simply wrong than any of the things you've suggested. Why waste intellectual effort sustaining this convoluted system when you could be constructing a simpler one which accounts for facts rather than explains them away?

Ducky · 30th January 2006, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

You know?...it's quite possible you are right? But I still have some life in me, and I want to use analytical approaches and be able to come to a very sound conclusion on this, someday. The answer to all this will bridge science AND philosphy, I think. But it be nice if I could come to some determination on all this sooner than later...BEFORE I lose my faculties. My dad's side of the family all went nuts by the time they reached 75.

That first couple of sentences leads me to believe you're kurious kathy, except that kathy would never have asked about vaginosis fish-like smells in a post.

Here's a hint man: Sonce your dad's side of the family all went nuts by 75, why don't you check to make sure you're not the statistical exception that went nuts by 12.

We have some evidence to help you present this to the Doc.

DreadNiK · 30th January 2006, 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

Hmph!

If we all knew everything we all should perhaps have learned and should know, then we should all be able to just go our own ways and live in a shell and not question anything or the meaning of anything, because we should just know. Sheesh!!!!

I suppose YOU have thought of a question like I raised, and then went, "Nahhhh...I ain't going to post it. Too dumb. Everyone already knows the answer and I don't want to look like a fool."

Ya, right.

Aha, now it has been bumped a bit I can respond.

No, Iamme, the fact is your lack of total basic knowledge is easily amendable by a bit of EFFORT on your part. But you are clearly intellectually lazy, and introspection is easier. You are lucky people actually bother to engage you in discussion, when you show the disrespect of not even bothering to learn the basics of a topic you wish to discuss.

And yes, I don't ask stupid questions because I don't wish to appear stupid.

Ladewig · 30th January 2006, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Iamme

Or, take the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, and tsunamis and mudslides, and ozone hole, and global warming, etc. The skeptic scoffs at the fundamentalist that says that God is causing all this for man's transgressions against God's perfect earth. Well, to put it this way does make it sound like a loon is spewing forth rubbish. But, in actuality, is there not some truth that the earth has gotten off kilter and some of these things are the earth's way to clean things up?

Originally Posted by Ladewig

Would you explain precisely what you mean by "off kilter" and also explain how hurricanes, earthquakes and floods "clean things up" (I assume you mean put things back "on kilter")?

Any chance you could explain yourself?

25th January 2006, 03:34 PM	#41
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by Phil Some of us have more in our genes than others. works better spoken Give some examples as to what some have and what some don't have, please.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 03:38 PM	#42
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by Genesius It's quite simple. There is no God, therefore no problem. Happy to be of service. You know?...it's quite possible you are right? But I still have some life in me, and I want to use analytical approaches and be able to come to a very sound conclusion on this, someday. The answer to all this will bridge science AND philosphy, I think. But it be nice if I could come to some determination on all this sooner than later...BEFORE I lose my faculties. My dad's side of the family all went nuts by the time they reached 75.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 03:40 PM	#43
DreadNiK A typical atypical Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading/Manchester Posts: 740	Originally Posted by Iamme But alas...the baby is NOT void of CERTAIN knowledge. The knowledge the baby inherited is like what we would call instinct. Why would a baby know how to flinch....but NOT know how to start a campfire? Hmmmmm. Hasn't man made fires long enough that the knowledge of how to do this should be in our genes by now? Originally Posted by Iamme What is so stupid about it?... Even though your response elicited a guffaw out of me. Ignoring all your questions about why god did what, which are all parsimoniously answered by 'there is no god involved here', you have just demonstrated a total lack of understanding of school level biology. To claim that you are making insightful and important posts is totally undermined by your total lack of basic knowledge about the topics you post on.
	__________________ Question Everything - Just not always out loud... Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate

25th January 2006, 04:21 PM	#44
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by Iamme : Good question, isn't it? (Roboramma) It could be. If you were interested in a meaningful answer, I might say yes. But the way it looks from your post, alas... no it's not. Iamme: I AM looing for a meaningful answer. I think one can use the answer to this to help determine if a higher power, like a God, programmed man for some purpose. (Robarama) Or if perhaps it fits perfectly with our understanding of nature. Surprise surprise, it does. (Iamme) Being that God is all omniscient and supposedly got everything right the first time..... (Roboramma) Funny, I thought he messed up with the whole tree of knowledge thing... Iamme: I too have issues with some of the stories in the Bible. But I'm not about to discredit intelligent design entirely, because of it. It is quite conceivable that the reason men thought the Bible was inspired by men, is from the fact that certain truths are self-evident, and the author(s) of the books in the Bible, through this inspiration, or inner knowledge, got certain things right. And perhaps things they got wrong, they weren't all to far off on, with some of it. Let me go off on a tangent here and give you an example or two: AIDS. Skeptics mock that God had anything to do with this curse. But are you so sure? Wouldn't you admit that AIDS spread as a result of unNATURal engagements between men? Or, take the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, and tsunamis and mudslides, and ozone hole, and global warming, etc. The skeptic scoffs at the fundamentalist that says that God is causing all this for man's transgressions against God's perfect earth. Well, to put it this way does make it sound like a loon is spewing forth rubbish. But, in actuallity, is there not some truth that the earth has gotten off kilter and some of these things are the earths way to clean things up? (Iamme) I can't figure out for the LIFE of me (so far) why on earth God, who gave man a limited number of years on the earth...who apreciates it when man helps out his fellow man...only for the man to have to start from scratch and learn things for like 20 years (and I'm just talking basics here, as we all continue to learn through life, if we are open to learning knew things).... (Roboramma) You can't figure out why a non-existant entity wouldn't imbue you with all the knowledge you want... I can't figure out why faeries don't tie my shoes together. I guess we're in the same boat. Iamme: You don't know for a fact the entity does not exist. A fairy IS silly, but a supreme entity that is one step above us does not sound illogical, in the face of the fact that we can't explain what the driving force is behind a universe that is supposed to have started, somehow, and is supposed to be running itself down. You tell me what sustains the power of a magnet. (Iamme) But alas...the baby is NOT void of CERTAIN knowledge. The knowledge the baby inherited is like what we would call instinct. Why would a baby know how to flinch....but NOT know how to start a campfire? Hmmmmm. Hasn't man made fires long enough that the knowledge of how to do this should be in our genes by now? (Roboramma) Not really. This isn't a bad question. But you have to think about the answer. Why do we have to learn anything? I'll give you my own poor attempt at an answer. Iamme: Good. (Roborama) We aren't the only species to do so. Why do birds have to learn to fly? Iamme: Good point. Yet, aren't bird's migratory knowqledge attributed to instinct? Or the ability to catch a worm? Or, to fly? There are certain things that the baby(animal, bird, etc.) observes and develops skills from it's mother...but not all of it. And I'm trying to figure out why only certain things are instinctive (in the genes?), and other things are not. I'm sitting here trying to think of a 'killer' example of what for sure can't be taught in the animal wortld, and HAS TO be instinct, and is a relatively complex instinct at that. I thought of one!; a bat's ability to use radar. If a bat inherited this type of ability, then why weren't humans born with an ability to (thinking) walk? or, by virtue they have no inclination to walk (without observing other people), that this might actually bolster the claim that man was a creature on all fours (as baby's want to crawl first) and only recently (in relation to our existance ) learned to stand upright? I realize that baby's perhaps can't calculate 1 + 1 at birth due to the fact that the baby would first have to posess the ability to be able to talk and reason with itself. But with THAt remark, one wonders why then that a baby doesn't possess the ability to reason with itself...unless, the baby's brain is not developed fully yet, even after birth? I also realize that for a baby to conduct an excercize in reason, that the ability for the baby (person) to be able to talk to itself, sure helps. But our dialogue here is interesting and helping make this question more easy to understand. (Roborama) Why do chimpanzees have to learn how to crack nuts? Or to fish for termites? Or if those technologies are too recent (more recent than fire? I don't know), why do any animals play? To learn the vital skills of life. So, why is this necessary? Why aren't they born with this knowledge, full and intact? Simple, it's not possible, or at least less economical. Here's a demonstration of something similar. Did you know that the eye has to figure out how to wire itself with the rest of the brain? If you cover up one eye in a baby of a certain age for the critical amount of time, they'll go blind in that eye. Why? Because the eye has to learn how to see, basically. Because it's not really possible to specify exactly how those connections should be made. But our genes give rules of development that in this environment tend to create the right connections. Learning is similar. And what's great about it is that it works in many different environments. We could have genes that allow us to be born with a specific knowledge of how to start a fire. Or we could be born with the ability to learn this from our parents, as well as the ability to learn a great many other things. When humans first started playing with fire, they had the ability to learn. It's that that's been enhanced by evolution, and so there hasn't really been much selective pressure for intuitive fire making. Though probably there's been some for being better at learning to make a fire. Which at a certain point might become the same thing. The great thing about learning is it's versatility. And considering how quickly our environments are changing, we should be glad of that. Iamme: Thanks for your reply, that you spent time and gave serious thought to.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 04:30 PM	#45
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by Roboramma : So, why is this necessary? Why aren't they born with this knowledge, full and intact? Simple, it's not possible, or at least less economical. (Belz) Not only that, but if we knew everything from the start, that'd limit our ability to adapt to situations not foreseen by the genetic makeup. (Iamme) I agree that learned behavior has it's stong suits. But I still wonder, based on the fact that we know that certain information is indeed passed through the genome, that one, like me, anyway, wonders why more is NOT. This is interesting isn't it? I think evolutionists could be interested in a dialogue like this, as it makes you think why and why not, and can actually maybe help determine how long some information was in the animals/humans brains, for how many X generations , in determining when information finally enters the genes.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 04:31 PM	#46
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642	Originally Posted by Iacchus "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?" ~ Matthew 6:26 Evidently not, since "God" has seen fit to let me go hungry more than once. However, since I cast off that crazy thinking, I've never missed a meal. I'm more responsible to me and for me than "God" ever was.
slingblade Guest Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 23,642

25th January 2006, 04:36 PM	#47
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by DreadNiK Ignoring all your questions about why god did what, which are all parsimoniously answered by 'there is no god involved here', you have just demonstrated a total lack of understanding of school level biology. To claim that you are making insightful and important posts is totally undermined by your total lack of basic knowledge about the topics you post on. Hmph! If we all knew everything we all should perhaps have learned and should know, then we should all be able to just go our own ways and live in a shell and not question anything or the meaning of anything, because we should just know. Sheesh!!!! I suppose YOU have thought of a question like I raised, and then went, "Nahhhh...I ain't going to post it. Too dumb. Everyone already knows the answer and I don't want to look like a fool." Ya, right.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 04:46 PM	#48
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by Genesius Nature didn't "design" humans to be anything. Nature has no intellect, therefore it is incapable of foreseeing .... You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain? And IF, let's say, that there IS some driving force behingd this that we have failed to recognize so far (I'll call this force 'God')...that if it had the power to will this into existance, that it doesn't also have the knowldedge to foresee?..at least to some point? WE can "see something coming", as the saying goes, for certian 'givens'. What makes you think that something that is more powerful and smarter than us (and what makes you think we are the absolute smartest thing in the universe?) would not only be able to hedge a bet on some 'given', but do even better at this than what we could possilby imagine?
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 04:47 PM	#49
Bone_Vulture Appealing and hollow Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 491	Originally Posted by Iamme Ya, right. Whar else is there to say?
	__________________ Burn like an LA sunset colorful, toxic

25th January 2006, 04:49 PM	#50
Iamme Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Western Wisconsin Posts: 4,622	Originally Posted by Starrman See - the first time God made everyone, they all DID know how to work on furnaces upon being born. Then god slapped his head and realized that there were no furnaces and that all of his people lived in the damn desert anyway! In his infinite Wisdon, he picked a guy called Noah and his family and zapped the gene for knowing how to fix furnaces out of their bodies. Since that took quite a bit of effort, he decided it would just be easier to drown everyone else, and let Noah and his family's non-furnace-fixing-inate-knowledge having a#ses repopulate the world from there. There! I think you just made Jekyll happy.
	__________________ I lost my mind many years ago and it hasn't affected me a bit...a bit..a bit..a bit.

25th January 2006, 05:14 PM	#51
Marquis de Carabas Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: vuori Posts: 27,106	Originally Posted by Iamme What is so stupid about it?... It showed a gross and willful ignorance of evolution and the way it works. I call this ignorance willful because you have been pointed toward books which would answer many of your questions, and give you a basic understanding as a foundation to further explore other, more meaningful, and ultimately interesting, questions, yet you have steadfastly refused to do so. Quote: Even though your response elicited a guffaw out of me. Always glad to be of service.
	__________________ Jesus ... wasn't he the bloke who turned fish into wine and made the lepers multiply? -KateHL Violence is more acceptable than incest. I have been told to keep this in mind.

25th January 2006, 05:34 PM	#52
Beleth FAQ Creator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Not in a cave Posts: 4,134	In the history of human existence, how many humans had to know how to work on furnaces? Compare that to the number of humans who had to flinch. If it came down to "learn how a furnace works or lose an eye and starve to death because of it", then by golly, we'd all know how to work on furnaces as babies.
	__________________ Administrator and Head Moderator, The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe Forum Big Fan, Stop Sylvia Browne I will come back only after the words "Hi, Nyarl!" are returned to the post http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php...5&postcount=14 .

25th January 2006, 07:27 PM	#53
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957	Originally Posted by Iamme You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain? Yes.
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957

25th January 2006, 07:56 PM	#54
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Originally Posted by Iamme Let me go off on a tangent here and give you an example or two: AIDS. Skeptics mock that God had anything to do with this curse. But are you so sure? Wouldn't you admit that AIDS spread as a result of unNATURal engagements between men? It also spread through sharing that most unNATRUAL of inventions, the hypodermic needle. It is also spread through the very unNATURAL medical proceedure of a blood transfusion. It is also spread through the unNATURAL act of childbirth - oops, that's NATURAL, looks like God's aim at sinners is pretty bad if innocent babies are suffering and dying for other people's sins. I guess the skeptics are right to mock people who suggest that AIDS is a curse from God. Quote: Or, take the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, and tsunamis and mudslides, and ozone hole, and global warming, etc. The skeptic scoffs at the fundamentalist that says that God is causing all this for man's transgressions against God's perfect earth. Well, to put it this way does make it sound like a loon is spewing forth rubbish. But, in actuality, is there not some truth that the earth has gotten off kilter and some of these things are the earth's way to clean things up? Would you explain precisely what you mean by "off kilter" and also explain how hurricanes, earthquakes and floods "clean things up" (I assume you mean put things back "on kilter")? Also, you are incorrect that fundamentalists believe all those things are the result of God's anger at "man's transgressions against God's perfect earth." Christian fundamentalists believe that man has been given the earth for his use. Some C.f. (e.g. P. Robertson, F. Phelps) believe those natural disaters are the result of man turning away from God's laws, but that is very different from what you are concluding.
	Last edited by Ladewig; 25th January 2006 at 08:00 PM.

25th January 2006, 07:59 PM	#55
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Originally Posted by Iamme Originally Posted by Iamme : You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain? Originally Posted by UrsulaV Yes. You can put me down as a yes also.

25th January 2006, 08:04 PM	#56
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	Originally Posted by Beleth If it came down to "learn how a furnace works or lose an eye and starve to death because of it", then by golly, we'd all know how to work on furnaces as babies. Well, we should at least all be required to get our GED's.
	Last edited by Iacchus; 25th January 2006 at 08:53 PM.

25th January 2006, 08:06 PM	#57
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	As to the original question, would you have God give every single person born the knowledge to fix and operate all furnaces, air conditioners, and small appliances; to diagnose and treat all illnesses; to design, build, and operate all ships, planes, cars, trucks, trains, and space vehicles; to derive and apply all forms of mathematics; to speak all languages?

26th January 2006, 01:37 AM	#58
David Swidler Carrot Mohel Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Right here, obviously. Posts: 8,302	I just want the ability to find the missing jigsaw puzzle pieces.

26th January 2006, 04:49 AM	#59
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,505	Originally Posted by Iacchus Yes, and when man finally establishes his own ecological niche (which he has obviously yet to do), his will be the only one left. We could say goodbye to the nature we once knew in other words. Ah, as usual your answer has nothing to do with my statement.
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26th January 2006, 04:51 AM	#60
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,505	Originally Posted by Iacchus Then it shouldn't require us to be intelligent should it? It doesn't. Haven't you learned anything, here ?
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

26th January 2006, 04:55 AM	#61
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details... Posts: 28,505	Originally Posted by Iamme You know?...it's quite possible you are right? But I still have some life in me, and I want to use analytical approaches and be able to come to a very sound conclusion on this, someday. The answer to all this will bridge science AND philosphy. Philosophy is like some old, distant ancestor of science. Why would you want to bring that one back ? Originally Posted by Iamme You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain? Oh, quite.
	__________________ The Onmyouza Theatre, An unofficial international fanclub forum dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za: "In the interests of time and space, it is not unreasonable to cite one point at a time. Citing 30 is the equivalent of citing none. Obviously." - Robert Prey "Physical evidence must be observed and interpreted by witnesses which makes it subjective and subject to mistakes and to fraud." - Robert Prey

26th January 2006, 05:15 AM	#62
Genesius Apathetic Agnostic Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 1,534	Originally Posted by Iamme You bit off quite a chunk there. Are you certian there is not intellect in nature?..the way nature wonderfully runs itself? Are you 100% certain that the earth is not God's womb and life burst forth from the bowels of the earth through heat vents in the ocean?..and that this was just no more than luck, with no intelligence behind it? ARE YOU 100% unequivically certain? Originally Posted by UrsulaV Yes. Possibly the most concise and intelligent answer in this entire thread. I'd nominate it for the language award, but I'm sure the sheer jealousy of the other nominees would lead them to hunt you down and do terrible things to you. I just couldn't have that on my conscience. Iamme, why don't you & Iacchus elope, run off to a deserted island and leave the rest of us alone? My sanity would be better off without your silly posts.
	__________________ "We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the same sense and to the same extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." - H. L. Mencken "Why believe in things that make it tough on you?" - Devo, "Love Without Anger" GoogleBomb Sylvia Browne now! www.StopSylvia.com

26th January 2006, 05:29 AM	#63
kmortis Biomechanoid Director of IDIOCY (Region 13) Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Texas Posts: 24,596
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26th January 2006, 05:42 AM	#64
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957	Originally Posted by Genesius Possibly the most concise and intelligent answer in this entire thread. I'd nominate it for the language award, but I'm sure the sheer jealousy of the other nominees would lead them to hunt you down and do terrible things to you. I just couldn't have that on my conscience. Oh, well, and rightly so. But I appreciate the thought, anyhow!
UrsulaV Muse Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 957

26th January 2006, 10:12 AM	#65
Starrman Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 1,173	Originally Posted by David Swidler I just want the ability to find the missing jigsaw puzzle pieces. Have you checked in the dog poop?
	__________________ --------------------------------------------- Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. --Superintendent Chalmers

26th January 2006, 12:01 PM	#66
DarkMagician Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 1,539	Originally Posted by Jekyll This thread title deserves better than this thread. Come on people, find a punchline! My kid worked fine. He burned really well.
	__________________ Sometimes going by "Nyke" \| "Pascal's Wager: Believe in Unicorns, or one might kick you in the nads!" \| "There is no hope for humanity. Reason is dead and we dance on the corpse. Tra la la la la!" --c4ts \| Intelligent Design & Expelled Exposed \| I'm on dial-up. If you want to reply to me, summarize please.

26th January 2006, 02:49 PM	#67
Iacchus Suspended Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Oregon, USA Posts: 10,085	I supposedly burned the soles of my feet (bad enough to go to the hospital) when I walked across a furnace grate when I was very young.
	Last edited by Iacchus; 26th January 2006 at 02:53 PM.

27th January 2006, 11:22 PM	#68
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Originally Posted by Ladewig Would you explain precisely what you mean by "off kilter" and also explain how hurricanes, earthquakes and floods "clean things up" (I assume you mean put things back "on kilter")? bumped for an answer.

28th January 2006, 09:12 PM	#69
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381	Babies don't work on furnaces because everyone knows you dont cook babies on a furnace. a hibachi grill is the obvious choice. Babies do however work well IN furnaces as the high fat content burns quite well.
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,381

30th January 2006, 01:47 PM	#70
c4ts Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Your base Posts: 8,427	Originally Posted by Iamme Good question, isn't it? Actually there is something profound in this, somewhere. I think one can use the answer to this to help determine if a higher power, like a God, programmed man for some purpose. Being that God is all omniscient and supposedly got everything right the first time..... I can't figure out for the LIFE of me (so far) why on earth God, who gave man a limited number of years on the earth...who apreciates it when man helps out his fellow man...only for the man to have to start from scratch and learn things for like 20 years (and I'm just talking basics here, as we all continue to learn through life, if we are open to learning knew things).... Doesn't this seem like a real waste for a parent to have to train up kids and have them schooled for 18+ years just to get them to a point that the parents themselves have already been at? Isn't this a waste of valuable, precious, unrecoverable time? Why would a powerful God make a baby have to be born, basically void of knowledge??????? But alas...the baby is NOT void of CERTAIN knowledge. The knowledge the baby inherited is like what we would call instinct. Why would a baby know how to flinch....but NOT know how to start a campfire? Hmmmmm. Hasn't man made fires long enough that the knowledge of how to do this should be in our genes by now? Can any of you add further to the wonder of this mystery and mention things that babies already are born with and that which you think maybe they SHOULD have been born with? And why would God make each successive generation to have to go to school to relearn what the parents already know? Isn't this kinda dumb? (Sorry God. Please do not cause a lightning bolt or tornado to come after me for my questioning) The way you've constructed the universe to work, they should know. But they don't. It's far more likely that you're simply wrong than any of the things you've suggested. Why waste intellectual effort sustaining this convoluted system when you could be constructing a simpler one which accounts for facts rather than explains them away?
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30th January 2006, 02:03 PM	#71
Ducky Titanium Puprhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Mayor of your front lawn. Posts: 12,296	Originally Posted by Iamme You know?...it's quite possible you are right? But I still have some life in me, and I want to use analytical approaches and be able to come to a very sound conclusion on this, someday. The answer to all this will bridge science AND philosphy, I think. But it be nice if I could come to some determination on all this sooner than later...BEFORE I lose my faculties. My dad's side of the family all went nuts by the time they reached 75. That first couple of sentences leads me to believe you're kurious kathy, except that kathy would never have asked about vaginosis fish-like smells in a post. Here's a hint man: Sonce your dad's side of the family all went nuts by 75, why don't you check to make sure you're not the statistical exception that went nuts by 12. We have some evidence to help you present this to the Doc.

30th January 2006, 05:51 PM	#72
DreadNiK A typical atypical Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading/Manchester Posts: 740	Originally Posted by Iamme Hmph! If we all knew everything we all should perhaps have learned and should know, then we should all be able to just go our own ways and live in a shell and not question anything or the meaning of anything, because we should just know. Sheesh!!!! I suppose YOU have thought of a question like I raised, and then went, "Nahhhh...I ain't going to post it. Too dumb. Everyone already knows the answer and I don't want to look like a fool." Ya, right. Aha, now it has been bumped a bit I can respond. No, Iamme, the fact is your lack of total basic knowledge is easily amendable by a bit of EFFORT on your part. But you are clearly intellectually lazy, and introspection is easier. You are lucky people actually bother to engage you in discussion, when you show the disrespect of not even bothering to learn the basics of a topic you wish to discuss. And yes, I don't ask stupid questions because I don't wish to appear stupid.
	__________________ Question Everything - Just not always out loud... Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate

30th January 2006, 07:32 PM	#73
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,803	Originally Posted by Iamme Or, take the hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, and tsunamis and mudslides, and ozone hole, and global warming, etc. The skeptic scoffs at the fundamentalist that says that God is causing all this for man's transgressions against God's perfect earth. Well, to put it this way does make it sound like a loon is spewing forth rubbish. But, in actuality, is there not some truth that the earth has gotten off kilter and some of these things are the earth's way to clean things up? Originally Posted by Ladewig Would you explain precisely what you mean by "off kilter" and also explain how hurricanes, earthquakes and floods "clean things up" (I assume you mean put things back "on kilter")? Any chance you could explain yourself?