Mexican government trying to force US taxpayers to pay for illegals

jay gw · 28th January 2005, 11:43 AM

MEXICO CITY - Mexico may turn to international courts in an effort to block a new Arizona law limiting services to illegal immigrants, Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said Wednesday.

He said in a radio interview that Mexico might take such a step after it has exhausted all possibilities under U.S. law to halt Proposition 200.

"We are seeking all the legal opportunities that exist, first using the legal capacities of the United States itself and ... if that does not work, bringing it to international tribunals," Derbez said.
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He did not specify to which international bodies Mexico could appeal.

Mexico's Foreign Department and lawmakers have repeatedly complained about Proposition 200, which voters approved in November. The measure requires proof of citizenship to vote and proof of immigration status to receive some government benefits (Oh no!).

Derbez said the government already has made a verbal protest to the United States and now will file a written protest at the request of Mexican lawmakers. He did not say when it would be issued.

He expressed regret that, according to polls, about 40 percent of Mexican-Americans in Arizona had supported the measure.

"It's sad and it gives an idea of how we have to work to educate even our own Mexican-Americans about why it is important that these proposals are not accepted," Derbez said.

In December, the Foreign Department issued a statement expressing "complete rejection" of the proposition, calling it "a measure that could generate actions of discrimination based on ethnic profile."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-law26-ON.html

Typical. The (corrupt, incompetent and fraudently elected) Mexican government would face an incredible series of problems if they couldn't force American taxpayers to take the burden of several hundred thousand illegal aliens every year. The money Mexicans send back to Mexico from the US is the second largest source of income for that country, since they don't create businesses and employ their own people.

If they had to deal with their own population instead of forcing Americans to deal with them, they would have to reform their totally corrupt government - which they have always refused to do.

When I lived in Mexico, you couldn't get a bureaucrat to get off their ass for anything without using bribes. Sad to say, nothing has changed.

But at least their government cares about their citizens. It's the American government that doesn't seem to give a single g##damn about the burden on American citizens, and is refusing to do anything at all about the immigration policy disaster. As long as corporations can keep getting their cheap labor, politicians in Washington will keep stalling on reforms.

In every poll taken, 70 percent of Americans say they want stricter enforcement of immigration laws and crackdowns on companies that hire illegal aliens. But Washington doesn't seem to be listening.

Donks · 28th January 2005, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jay gw
Typical. The (corrupt, incompetent and fraudently elected) Mexican government would face an incredible series of problems if they couldn't force American taxpayers to take the burden of several hundred thousand illegal aliens every year. The money Mexicans send back to Mexico from the US is the second largest source of income for that country, since they don't create businesses and employ their own people.

Actually, this particular administration is not fraudulently elected, we actually put these idiots in power. No argument on corrupt or incompetent.
And, I believe money sent back from the US recently became the largest source of income to Mexico. Well, at least legally, I don't know how much money flows in from drugs.

jay gw · 28th January 2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Well, at least legally, I don't know how much money flows in from drugs.

Oh my god. Don't get started on that. It's in the tens of billions of dollars a year. The drug gangs have taken over border cities. This week, the United States Department of State issued a warning not to travel to Mexico because there's a war between drug gangs that's killed tourists. They also kidnap people for ransom.

crimresearch · 28th January 2005, 12:10 PM

Does Mexico allow people who have slipped in from other countries to vote and recieve government funded benefits without providing any evidence of their nationality? Or let them own property and start businesses?

Does France? Or China? Canada? North Korea?

So what countries are going to sit on this court and declare such behaviors illegal, but only if the US does it?

Tony · 28th January 2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crimresearch
Does Mexico allow people who have slipped in from other countries to vote and recieve government funded benefits without providing any evidence of their nationality? Or let them own property and start businesses?

See, I'd be willing to support Mexico's case if they were willing to let me (a potential illegal immigrant) go over there and get welfare, healthcare, education and a vote. Until they are willing to do that, they are hypocrites.

Tmy · 28th January 2005, 01:32 PM

Is anyone from Arizona. I was wondering if these "proof of citizen ship" laws only apply to hispanic looking people.

Tony4245 · 25th January 2006, 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by Tmy

Is anyone from Arizona. I was wondering if these "proof of citizen ship" laws only apply to hispanic looking people.

Dunno.

They'll have a hell of a time enforcing it - a similar law was passed here in California several years ago, and a Federal judge blocked it, saying it was discriminatory.

I have mixed feelings on the subject...

Kopji · 26th January 2006, 07:45 AM

The issue is probably an example of what happens when a federal problem is ignored and left up to states to "take care of".

Basically, 'Arizona Prop 200' (2004) is poorly written law and I suppose it will continue to attract opposition like flies to bad meat. Lest anyone think it is some kind of Arizona grass roots thing, it was authored by a Washington DC group.

The word "welfare" was somehow dropped from about 90% of the petitions that placed the initiative on the ballot. This sounds minor, but changes the meaning from receiving welfare services to all services, including medical, school, etc. There is considerable division about what the law actually means.

The prop 200 petition I was asked to sign did indeed omit the word "welfare". This made it sound even more draconian than the actual ballot prop and I did not sign it.

I also did not vote for ballot prop 200, even though that placed me in the distasteful place of agreeing with the local Catholic churches, who heavily opposed it. (So much for politics and religion). I'm not a lawyer but have a thing about having more badly written laws.

Full text:
http://www.defeat200.org/docs/PAN_Initiative.pdf

It is not really written to do anything with illegal immigrants per se', but only to require proof of US citizenship to receive government services and vote. Recently, a local opponent of the law satirically suggested using it against refugees from New Orleans since they were arriving by the planeload without identifying documents. The suggestion was in the form of a prominent editorial, I'll see if I can find it. it made my 'bad law' point rather well.

As far as I can tell the prop 200 law was written so badly that everyone seems to be ignoring it until it is eventually challenged in court.

The law prescribes punishing doctors, nurses, and social workers who provide care to people without proper identification.

The other implication was that illegal immigrants were voting over and over (presumably for democrats), so we need an ID to vote... or keep terrorists from voting, something like that.
This a recurring worry in Arizona politics but I don't think there is much evidence for it. (sarcasm)

On the bright side, a group in Mexico announced the other day that they would be providing 'border crossing maps' showing locations of food and water stops. Information and rest stop goodies provided by a humanitarian group based in Tuscon. (more sarcasm)

Quote:

MEXICO CITY - Mexico's human rights agency says it will give out detailed maps of the Arizona desert, including rescue beacons and water stations, to guide migrants safely through the most popular and deadliest corridor into the United States.

The maps were designed by a Tucson-based group, Humane Borders, which plans to hold a joint press conference today with the National Human Rights Commission in Mexico City to announce its strategy.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ordermaps.html

Notes:
http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/vr/verifreptg008.htm
http://www.defeat200.org/articles/21Oct04.htm
http://www.kaet.asu.edu/horizon/tran...oct27_2004.htm

Kopji · 26th January 2006, 08:14 AM

Here we go.
My apologies, I remembered it as satire but it is perhaps merely sarcasm.

Quote:

Ruelas: Refugee aid violates Prop. 200

Sept. 12, 2005 12:00 AM

Last week, the state of Arizona started giving out welfare money to people who can't prove their citizenship. It was a show of goodwill to victims of Hurricane Katrina. It's also a clear violation of a recently passed state law...

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/sp...2ruelas12.html

Arkan_Wolfshade · 26th January 2006, 08:18 AM

Not surprising, given a couple of weeks ago they made the statement that, "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals,"

Grammatron · 26th January 2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade

Not surprising, given a couple of weeks ago they made the statement that, "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals,"

Really, so when you violate the law by crossing into the country illigaly you are not a criminal? How the hell do you define "criminal" then?

Arkan_Wolfshade · 26th January 2006, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Grammatron

Really, so when you violate the law by crossing into the country illigaly you are not a criminal? How the hell do you define "criminal" then?

Pfft, got me. *shrug*

Tony4245 · 26th January 2006, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Tony

See, I'd be willing to support Mexico's case if they were willing to let me (a potential illegal immigrant) go over there and get welfare, healthcare, education and a vote. Until they are willing to do that, they are hypocrites.

Hmm. Well, it's actually in Mexico's constitution that you can't OWN property there, unless you're a Mexican citizen.

I'd favor some sort of work visa 'guest worker' program, myself.

A lot of them come over here to have a baby, and since the kid is then a US citizen, they're damn near impossible to deport - or at least they used to be. There's something that's wrong with that picture...

Tmy · 26th January 2006, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by jay gw

. The measure requires proof of citizenship to vote and proof of immigration status to receive some government benefits (Oh no!).

.

I have a question. How does one prove hes a US citizen? I dont have a citizen card, and I was born here. If someone stops me in the street how do I prove Im an american?

Art Vandelay · 26th January 2006, 09:44 PM

The law declares that it is not to applied in a manner which discriminates on the basis of national origin. How in the world can that be?

Also, it looks to me that it doesn't create restrictions on benefits, it just creates new rules on the application of those rules.

According to Kopji's link, "The state employees could be found guilty of misdemeanors." How so?

And "In this case, the emotional appeal was about illegal immigration, even though nothing in the law stated that." Actually, it did.

Tony4245 · 30th January 2006, 11:47 PM

Originally Posted by Tmy

I have a question. How does one prove hes a US citizen? I dont have a citizen card, and I was born here. If someone stops me in the street how do I prove Im an american?

A passport works. Or a drivers' license, voter registration card, social security card...

28th January 2005, 11:43 AM	#1
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824	Mexican government trying to force US taxpayers to pay for illegals MEXICO CITY - Mexico may turn to international courts in an effort to block a new Arizona law limiting services to illegal immigrants, Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said Wednesday. He said in a radio interview that Mexico might take such a step after it has exhausted all possibilities under U.S. law to halt Proposition 200. "We are seeking all the legal opportunities that exist, first using the legal capacities of the United States itself and ... if that does not work, bringing it to international tribunals," Derbez said. advertisement He did not specify to which international bodies Mexico could appeal. Mexico's Foreign Department and lawmakers have repeatedly complained about Proposition 200, which voters approved in November. The measure requires proof of citizenship to vote and proof of immigration status to receive some government benefits (Oh no!). Derbez said the government already has made a verbal protest to the United States and now will file a written protest at the request of Mexican lawmakers. He did not say when it would be issued. He expressed regret that, according to polls, about 40 percent of Mexican-Americans in Arizona had supported the measure. "It's sad and it gives an idea of how we have to work to educate even our own Mexican-Americans about why it is important that these proposals are not accepted," Derbez said. In December, the Foreign Department issued a statement expressing "complete rejection" of the proposition, calling it "a measure that could generate actions of discrimination based on ethnic profile." http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-law26-ON.html Typical. The (corrupt, incompetent and fraudently elected) Mexican government would face an incredible series of problems if they couldn't force American taxpayers to take the burden of several hundred thousand illegal aliens every year. The money Mexicans send back to Mexico from the US is the second largest source of income for that country, since they don't create businesses and employ their own people. If they had to deal with their own population instead of forcing Americans to deal with them, they would have to reform their totally corrupt government - which they have always refused to do. When I lived in Mexico, you couldn't get a bureaucrat to get off their ass for anything without using bribes. Sad to say, nothing has changed. But at least their government cares about their citizens. It's the American government that doesn't seem to give a single g##damn about the burden on American citizens, and is refusing to do anything at all about the immigration policy disaster. As long as corporations can keep getting their cheap labor, politicians in Washington will keep stalling on reforms. In every poll taken, 70 percent of Americans say they want stricter enforcement of immigration laws and crackdowns on companies that hire illegal aliens. But Washington doesn't seem to be listening.
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824

28th January 2005, 11:48 AM	#2
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321	Re: Mexican government trying to force US taxpayers to pay for illegals Quote: Originally posted by jay gw Typical. The (corrupt, incompetent and fraudently elected) Mexican government would face an incredible series of problems if they couldn't force American taxpayers to take the burden of several hundred thousand illegal aliens every year. The money Mexicans send back to Mexico from the US is the second largest source of income for that country, since they don't create businesses and employ their own people. Actually, this particular administration is not fraudulently elected, we actually put these idiots in power. No argument on corrupt or incompetent. And, I believe money sent back from the US recently became the largest source of income to Mexico. Well, at least legally, I don't know how much money flows in from drugs.
Donks vBulletin God Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 3,321

28th January 2005, 11:53 AM	#3
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824	Quote: Well, at least legally, I don't know how much money flows in from drugs. Oh my god. Don't get started on that. It's in the tens of billions of dollars a year. The drug gangs have taken over border cities. This week, the United States Department of State issued a warning not to travel to Mexico because there's a war between drug gangs that's killed tourists. They also kidnap people for ransom.
jay gw Suspended Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 1,824

28th January 2005, 12:10 PM	#4
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618	Does Mexico allow people who have slipped in from other countries to vote and recieve government funded benefits without providing any evidence of their nationality? Or let them own property and start businesses? Does France? Or China? Canada? North Korea? So what countries are going to sit on this court and declare such behaviors illegal, but only if the US does it?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,618

28th January 2005, 12:42 PM	#5
Tony Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 13,767	Quote: Originally posted by crimresearch Does Mexico allow people who have slipped in from other countries to vote and recieve government funded benefits without providing any evidence of their nationality? Or let them own property and start businesses? See, I'd be willing to support Mexico's case if they were willing to let me (a potential illegal immigrant) go over there and get welfare, healthcare, education and a vote. Until they are willing to do that, they are hypocrites.
	__________________ It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company. - Mark Twain

28th January 2005, 01:32 PM	#6
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Is anyone from Arizona. I was wondering if these "proof of citizen ship" laws only apply to hispanic looking people.
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

25th January 2006, 09:26 PM	#7
Tony4245 Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Coos Bay, Oregon Posts: 79	Originally Posted by Tmy Is anyone from Arizona. I was wondering if these "proof of citizen ship" laws only apply to hispanic looking people. Dunno. They'll have a hell of a time enforcing it - a similar law was passed here in California several years ago, and a Federal judge blocked it, saying it was discriminatory. I have mixed feelings on the subject...

26th January 2006, 07:45 AM	#8
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	The issue is probably an example of what happens when a federal problem is ignored and left up to states to "take care of". Basically, 'Arizona Prop 200' (2004) is poorly written law and I suppose it will continue to attract opposition like flies to bad meat. Lest anyone think it is some kind of Arizona grass roots thing, it was authored by a Washington DC group. The word "welfare" was somehow dropped from about 90% of the petitions that placed the initiative on the ballot. This sounds minor, but changes the meaning from receiving welfare services to all services, including medical, school, etc. There is considerable division about what the law actually means. The prop 200 petition I was asked to sign did indeed omit the word "welfare". This made it sound even more draconian than the actual ballot prop and I did not sign it. I also did not vote for ballot prop 200, even though that placed me in the distasteful place of agreeing with the local Catholic churches, who heavily opposed it. (So much for politics and religion). I'm not a lawyer but have a thing about having more badly written laws. Full text: http://www.defeat200.org/docs/PAN_Initiative.pdf It is not really written to do anything with illegal immigrants per se', but only to require proof of US citizenship to receive government services and vote. Recently, a local opponent of the law satirically suggested using it against refugees from New Orleans since they were arriving by the planeload without identifying documents. The suggestion was in the form of a prominent editorial, I'll see if I can find it. it made my 'bad law' point rather well. As far as I can tell the prop 200 law was written so badly that everyone seems to be ignoring it until it is eventually challenged in court. The law prescribes punishing doctors, nurses, and social workers who provide care to people without proper identification. The other implication was that illegal immigrants were voting over and over (presumably for democrats), so we need an ID to vote... or keep terrorists from voting, something like that. This a recurring worry in Arizona politics but I don't think there is much evidence for it. (sarcasm) On the bright side, a group in Mexico announced the other day that they would be providing 'border crossing maps' showing locations of food and water stops. Information and rest stop goodies provided by a humanitarian group based in Tuscon. (more sarcasm) Quote: MEXICO CITY - Mexico's human rights agency says it will give out detailed maps of the Arizona desert, including rescue beacons and water stations, to guide migrants safely through the most popular and deadliest corridor into the United States. The maps were designed by a Tucson-based group, Humane Borders, which plans to hold a joint press conference today with the National Human Rights Commission in Mexico City to announce its strategy. http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...ordermaps.html Notes: http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/vr/verifreptg008.htm http://www.defeat200.org/articles/21Oct04.htm http://www.kaet.asu.edu/horizon/tran...oct27_2004.htm

26th January 2006, 08:14 AM	#9
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	Here we go. My apologies, I remembered it as satire but it is perhaps merely sarcasm. Quote: Ruelas: Refugee aid violates Prop. 200 Sept. 12, 2005 12:00 AM Last week, the state of Arizona started giving out welfare money to people who can't prove their citizenship. It was a show of goodwill to victims of Hurricane Katrina. It's also a clear violation of a recently passed state law... http://www.azcentral.com/specials/sp...2ruelas12.html

26th January 2006, 08:18 AM	#10
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Not surprising, given a couple of weeks ago they made the statement that, "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals,"

26th January 2006, 12:31 PM	#11
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade Not surprising, given a couple of weeks ago they made the statement that, "Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," Really, so when you violate the law by crossing into the country illigaly you are not a criminal? How the hell do you define "criminal" then?
Grammatron Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5,446	__________________ Private Information, Do not read this!

26th January 2006, 12:45 PM	#12
Arkan_Wolfshade Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Making Mytheon come to life Posts: 7,158	Originally Posted by Grammatron Really, so when you violate the law by crossing into the country illigaly you are not a criminal? How the hell do you define "criminal" then? Pfft, got me. shrug

26th January 2006, 04:40 PM	#13
Tony4245 Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Coos Bay, Oregon Posts: 79	Originally Posted by Tony See, I'd be willing to support Mexico's case if they were willing to let me (a potential illegal immigrant) go over there and get welfare, healthcare, education and a vote. Until they are willing to do that, they are hypocrites. Hmm. Well, it's actually in Mexico's constitution that you can't OWN property there, unless you're a Mexican citizen. I'd favor some sort of work visa 'guest worker' program, myself. A lot of them come over here to have a baby, and since the kid is then a US citizen, they're damn near impossible to deport - or at least they used to be. There's something that's wrong with that picture...

26th January 2006, 04:52 PM	#14
Tmy Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Republic of Massachusetts Posts: 6,489	Originally Posted by jay gw . The measure requires proof of citizenship to vote and proof of immigration status to receive some government benefits (Oh no!). . I have a question. How does one prove hes a US citizen? I dont have a citizen card, and I was born here. If someone stops me in the street how do I prove Im an american?
	__________________ "Common sense is something that skeptics can and should do without." -shanek

26th January 2006, 09:44 PM	#15
Art Vandelay Illuminator Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 4,790	The law declares that it is not to applied in a manner which discriminates on the basis of national origin. How in the world can that be? Also, it looks to me that it doesn't create restrictions on benefits, it just creates new rules on the application of those rules. According to Kopji's link, "The state employees could be found guilty of misdemeanors." How so? And "In this case, the emotional appeal was about illegal immigration, even though nothing in the law stated that." Actually, it did.
	Last edited by Art Vandelay; 26th January 2006 at 09:53 PM.

30th January 2006, 11:47 PM	#16
Tony4245 Scholar Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Coos Bay, Oregon Posts: 79	Originally Posted by Tmy I have a question. How does one prove hes a US citizen? I dont have a citizen card, and I was born here. If someone stops me in the street how do I prove Im an american? A passport works. Or a drivers' license, voter registration card, social security card...