HS kids analysis of a few TAM4 clips - Page 2

kneague · 2nd February 2006, 08:35 PM

oh, that's simple :-)

12 25 25 15
22 18 17 20
19 21 21 16
24 13 14 26

Wiseman used Albrecht Dürer's magic square to solve 88. I used The Sagrada Família magic square to solve 77. Check out "magic square" on Wikipedia. I'd post a link, but newbie's aren't allowed to.

On a related note, I'm teaching an Introduction to Psychology class, and had been planning to show a change blindness clip. Wiseman's swapping with Phil Plait was hilarious, so I decided to replicate it with my roommate. Despite him being a few inches taller and not having a pony-tail, a number of them fell for it!

phyz · 6th February 2006, 12:36 AM

One of my students demonstrated something like Wiseman's Magic Square trick. He has you pick the digits separately, and the range is not 35-90, like Wiseman's.

He had a crowd of students around him the day after I showed the Wiseman clip. As much as many of them want to have the appearance of being "unimpressible," many of them will dig into a challenge like that.

Math teachers at school were suitably impressed.

exarch · 6th February 2006, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by kneague

oh, that's simple :-)

12 25 25 15
22 18 17 20
19 21 21 16
24 13 14 26

You have 21 and 25 in there twice. Is that allowed?

phyz · 6th February 2006, 07:19 AM

Wiseman had all unique values.

kneague · 6th February 2006, 12:05 PM

Wiseman had all unique values, but that may have been a lucky after thought. We didn't know what he was going to do, and I think we would all have been equally impressed if the matrix didn't have unique values. Analogously, you can flip a coin and use your fingers to feel if it's landed heads. If someone choose tails, open up your hands to reveal it to be heads. If they choose tails, flip the coin on your wrist and reveal it to be heads. Either way you win, and the audience is none the wiser.

On second thought, Wiseman must have used a different technique than the one suggested here. Our solutions works fine, but I seem to recall him entering 4 and 11 into the matrix prior to the person saying 88. Did I remember that accurately, or did he write the second of those numbers only after the 88 was said? If he wrote both of them first, it could catastrophically reduce the degrees of freedom necessary to produce a multiple of the Sagrada and Durer squares. Also, he had numbers such as 67 in his matrix. 67 is a prime number and there's no obvious way it could be arrived at my multiplying the Sagrada or Durer squares.

TJ · 6th February 2006, 12:50 PM

I'm still amazed he could do math at 9am.

exarch · 7th February 2006, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by kneague

Wiseman had all unique values, but that may have been a lucky after thought. We didn't know what he was going to do, ...

Well, those of us who were there last year knew exactly what he was going to do.

And he used all unique numbers last year too ...

Bruce · 7th February 2006, 04:40 AM

Originally Posted by phyz

1. Randi floats Ed Lu on stage. Morning classes couldn't figure out the trick; afternoon classes could!

I happened to be sitting at just the right angle to see behind the magic curtain. I could see everything that happened. I was impressed by the engineering that made the trick possible, but kind of sad that I know how it works now.

phyz · 7th February 2006, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce

I happened to be sitting at just the right angle to see behind the magic curtain. I could see everything that happened. I was impressed by the engineering that made the trick possible, but kind of sad that I know how it works now.

It's great fun to watch the video (I was sitting fairly front and center) and figure it out. The only thing cooler than being wowed by a trick is figuring it out. Kids liked figuring it out, too.

Now I'm doing the three-color mind-reading trick Wiseman explained at TAM3. But I haven't explained it to the kids yet. Great fun!

exarch · 7th February 2006, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce

I happened to be sitting at just the right angle to see behind the magic curtain.

The way he had to stretch the hoola-hoop out of shape, you didn't even need to see behind the curtain to figure out how the trick works ...

Bruce · 7th February 2006, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by exarch

The way he had to stretch the hoola-hoop out of shape, you didn't even need to see behind the curtain to figure out how the trick works ...

I wonder what he was thinking during that experience. Surely, the prop dude put the wrong sized hoop on the stage.

James Randi: "Curse you, Surely!!!!"

exarch · 8th February 2006, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Bruce

I wonder what he was thinking during that experience. Surely, the prop dude put the wrong sized hoop on the stage.

James Randi: "Curse you, Surely!!!!"

I think someone really had literally just bought that thing in one of the shops across the street from the Stardust, like he said when he did the trick.

Or Ed Lu turned out to be just a bit taller than he'd expected.

sadluxation · 8th February 2006, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by LostAngeles

The key to the magic square is most likely the placement of the 11 and the 4. If I'm not mistaken, he wrote those numbers down either before or while he was asking for a number.

Edit: Most likely because of how I remembered it. I could be completely wrong.

I may as well tell you how he did it!
Simple Base Magic Square works for any number between 33-99
I'm not going to completely give it away! You'll have to do some research yourselves.
Ta da!

delphi_ote · 8th February 2006, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by sadluxation

I may as well tell you how he did it!
Simple Base Magic Square works for any number between 33-99
I'm not going to completely give it away! You'll have to do some research yourselves.
Ta da!

Wow. That's exactly it.

exarch · 8th February 2006, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by sadluxation

I may as well tell you how he did it!
Simple Base Magic Square works for any number between 33-99
I'm not going to completely give it away! You'll have to do some research yourselves.
Ta da!

I suppose in the same way 4 + (X-4) always equals X no matter what you choose for X.

6th February 2006, 12:36 AM	#42
phyz Muse Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 969	One of my students demonstrated something like Wiseman's Magic Square trick. He has you pick the digits separately, and the range is not 35-90, like Wiseman's. He had a crowd of students around him the day after I showed the Wiseman clip. As much as many of them want to have the appearance of being "unimpressible," many of them will dig into a challenge like that. Math teachers at school were suitably impressed.
	__________________ Dean Baird Phyz Home Page - The Blog of Phyz - Images, Photographs, and Pix Only dead fish go with the flow.

6th February 2006, 05:00 AM	#43
exarch Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Beyond redemption Posts: 7,225	Originally Posted by kneague oh, that's simple :-) 12 25 25 15 22 18 17 20 19 21 21 16 24 13 14 26 You have 21 and 25 in there twice. Is that allowed?
	__________________ Naturalhealth: Helios are one of the largest homeopathic pharmacies in England. They have their reputation to consider, so it is just not worth their while doing anything that would destroy that. Rest assured, all their remedies are exactly what they say they are. There are also ways of testing the remedies too, so that you could distinguish them from just pure tap water. QAman: How can this be done? I presume you mean testing of the lower dilution remedies? Naturalhealth: No. This can be done for all remedies. __________________ Luciana is perhaps one of the sweetest people I've ever met. I will stand behind her till I drop dead. If you want to **** with her, you better understand you have to go through me first -- MoeFaux

6th February 2006, 07:19 AM	#44
phyz Muse Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 969	Wiseman had all unique values.
	__________________ Dean Baird Phyz Home Page - The Blog of Phyz - Images, Photographs, and Pix Only dead fish go with the flow.

6th February 2006, 12:50 PM	#46
TJ Amateur Rhythmatist Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver, Co Posts: 2,352	I'm still amazed he could do math at 9am.
	__________________ In most of the states of this union, I could not give testimony. Christianity has such a contemptable opinion of human nature that it does not believe that a man can tell the truth unless frightened by a belief in God. - Ingersoll My Blog

7th February 2006, 12:19 AM	#47
exarch Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Beyond redemption Posts: 7,225	Originally Posted by kneague Wiseman had all unique values, but that may have been a lucky after thought. We didn't know what he was going to do, ... Well, those of us who were there last year knew exactly what he was going to do. And he used all unique numbers last year too ...
	__________________ Naturalhealth: Helios are one of the largest homeopathic pharmacies in England. They have their reputation to consider, so it is just not worth their while doing anything that would destroy that. Rest assured, all their remedies are exactly what they say they are. There are also ways of testing the remedies too, so that you could distinguish them from just pure tap water. QAman: How can this be done? I presume you mean testing of the lower dilution remedies? Naturalhealth: No. This can be done for all remedies. __________________ Luciana is perhaps one of the sweetest people I've ever met. I will stand behind her till I drop dead. If you want to **** with her, you better understand you have to go through me first -- MoeFaux

2nd February 2006, 08:35 PM	#41
kneague New Blood Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Davis, CA Posts: 2	oh, that's simple :-) 12 25 25 15 22 18 17 20 19 21 21 16 24 13 14 26 Wiseman used Albrecht Dürer's magic square to solve 88. I used The Sagrada Família magic square to solve 77. Check out "magic square" on Wikipedia. I'd post a link, but newbie's aren't allowed to. On a related note, I'm teaching an Introduction to Psychology class, and had been planning to show a change blindness clip. Wiseman's swapping with Phil Plait was hilarious, so I decided to replicate it with my roommate. Despite him being a few inches taller and not having a pony-tail, a number of them fell for it!

6th February 2006, 12:05 PM	#45
kneague New Blood Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Davis, CA Posts: 2	Wiseman had all unique values, but that may have been a lucky after thought. We didn't know what he was going to do, and I think we would all have been equally impressed if the matrix didn't have unique values. Analogously, you can flip a coin and use your fingers to feel if it's landed heads. If someone choose tails, open up your hands to reveal it to be heads. If they choose tails, flip the coin on your wrist and reveal it to be heads. Either way you win, and the audience is none the wiser. On second thought, Wiseman must have used a different technique than the one suggested here. Our solutions works fine, but I seem to recall him entering 4 and 11 into the matrix prior to the person saying 88. Did I remember that accurately, or did he write the second of those numbers only after the 88 was said? If he wrote both of them first, it could catastrophically reduce the degrees of freedom necessary to produce a multiple of the Sagrada and Durer squares. Also, he had numbers such as 67 in his matrix. 67 is a prime number and there's no obvious way it could be arrived at my multiplying the Sagrada or Durer squares.

7th February 2006, 04:40 AM	#48
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,522	Originally Posted by phyz 1. Randi floats Ed Lu on stage. Morning classes couldn't figure out the trick; afternoon classes could! I happened to be sitting at just the right angle to see behind the magic curtain. I could see everything that happened. I was impressed by the engineering that made the trick possible, but kind of sad that I know how it works now.
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

7th February 2006, 07:39 AM	#49
phyz Muse Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 969	Originally Posted by Bruce I happened to be sitting at just the right angle to see behind the magic curtain. I could see everything that happened. I was impressed by the engineering that made the trick possible, but kind of sad that I know how it works now. It's great fun to watch the video (I was sitting fairly front and center) and figure it out. The only thing cooler than being wowed by a trick is figuring it out. Kids liked figuring it out, too. Now I'm doing the three-color mind-reading trick Wiseman explained at TAM3. But I haven't explained it to the kids yet. Great fun!
	__________________ Dean Baird Phyz Home Page - The Blog of Phyz - Images, Photographs, and Pix Only dead fish go with the flow.

7th February 2006, 08:31 AM	#50
exarch Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Beyond redemption Posts: 7,225	Originally Posted by Bruce I happened to be sitting at just the right angle to see behind the magic curtain. The way he had to stretch the hoola-hoop out of shape, you didn't even need to see behind the curtain to figure out how the trick works ...
	__________________ Naturalhealth: Helios are one of the largest homeopathic pharmacies in England. They have their reputation to consider, so it is just not worth their while doing anything that would destroy that. Rest assured, all their remedies are exactly what they say they are. There are also ways of testing the remedies too, so that you could distinguish them from just pure tap water. QAman: How can this be done? I presume you mean testing of the lower dilution remedies? Naturalhealth: No. This can be done for all remedies. __________________ Luciana is perhaps one of the sweetest people I've ever met. I will stand behind her till I drop dead. If you want to **** with her, you better understand you have to go through me first -- MoeFaux

7th February 2006, 07:43 PM	#51
Bruce Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Columbia, Missouri Posts: 7,522	Originally Posted by exarch The way he had to stretch the hoola-hoop out of shape, you didn't even need to see behind the curtain to figure out how the trick works ... I wonder what he was thinking during that experience. Surely, the prop dude put the wrong sized hoop on the stage. James Randi: "Curse you, Surely!!!!"
	__________________ Indeed, anything past the ring finger is prohibited. -bpesta

8th February 2006, 02:00 AM	#52
exarch Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Beyond redemption Posts: 7,225	Originally Posted by Bruce I wonder what he was thinking during that experience. Surely, the prop dude put the wrong sized hoop on the stage. James Randi: "Curse you, Surely!!!!" I think someone really had literally just bought that thing in one of the shops across the street from the Stardust, like he said when he did the trick. Or Ed Lu turned out to be just a bit taller than he'd expected.
	__________________ Naturalhealth: Helios are one of the largest homeopathic pharmacies in England. They have their reputation to consider, so it is just not worth their while doing anything that would destroy that. Rest assured, all their remedies are exactly what they say they are. There are also ways of testing the remedies too, so that you could distinguish them from just pure tap water. QAman: How can this be done? I presume you mean testing of the lower dilution remedies? Naturalhealth: No. This can be done for all remedies. __________________ Luciana is perhaps one of the sweetest people I've ever met. I will stand behind her till I drop dead. If you want to **** with her, you better understand you have to go through me first -- MoeFaux

8th February 2006, 09:11 AM	#53
sadluxation Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: London Posts: 336	Originally Posted by LostAngeles The key to the magic square is most likely the placement of the 11 and the 4. If I'm not mistaken, he wrote those numbers down either before or while he was asking for a number. Edit: Most likely because of how I remembered it. I could be completely wrong. I may as well tell you how he did it! Simple Base Magic Square works for any number between 33-99 I'm not going to completely give it away! You'll have to do some research yourselves. Ta da!
	__________________ The World Famous and Award Winning (not to mention, modest) Skeptics in the Pub now on Facebook Nothing is better than homoeopathy!

8th February 2006, 10:13 AM	#54
delphi_ote Debunking Ninja Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,006	Originally Posted by sadluxation I may as well tell you how he did it! Simple Base Magic Square works for any number between 33-99 I'm not going to completely give it away! You'll have to do some research yourselves. Ta da! Wow. That's exactly it.
	__________________ And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.