What's the deal with the soul?

pgwenthold · 17th April 2006, 02:46 PM

Being Easter weekend and all, I was thinking about a confusing religious topic: the soul. Does anyone really understand what this is supposed to be?

My biggest question of the soul has to do with its relation to the physical body. The religious will talk about the "eternal soul" and the such, but it doesn't quite make sense to me.

For starters, where does our soul come from? Did it always exist, or was it not created until we were born? Let's consider the two options.

If my soul always existed, why don't I have any recollection of anything before I was born? Heck, I don't even recollect from when I was very young. Why does my soulful awareness seem to just coincide with my brain development? If I had a soul but needed brain awareness in order to experience it, then why should I think the sensation of my soul will persist after my brain is dead? Eternal punishment won't be so much of a big deal if I am not able to conceive it.

Alternatively, maybe my soul was just created when I was born. In that case, I shouldn't necessarily expect to have knowledge of before I was born, but again, why don't I have any awareness from before when my brain was able to do perceive it? Did my soul need to grow with my body? If so, why doesn't my soulful awareness also die with my body?

As I think about it more, the whole CONCEPT of the "eternal soul" makes no sense at all.

MWare · 17th April 2006, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

As I think about it more, the whole CONCEPT of the "eternal soul" makes no sense at all.

and there you go

Bikewer · 17th April 2006, 03:05 PM

It's fairly easy to see where ideas of a "soul" sprang from primitive animism. Animism was apparently universally accepted by primitive peoples all over the world; an idea that made perfectly logical sense to our ancestors.

Things were alive because some sort of spirit "animated" them. When the spirit left, you died. Since these spirits existed apart from bodies, maybe the departing spirit lived on as well.

As human culture evolved, this notion got refined to the level of a "soul", which was also made to conform with whatever religious beliefs had evolved.

pgwenthold · 17th April 2006, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by MWare

and there you go

Yeah, but I ran into this problem basically the first time I really thought about half seriously. There has to be _some_ religious type who has thought about it enough to actually realize the problem and devise a solution, hasn't there? What's the catholic catechism say on the matter?

pgwenthold · 17th April 2006, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Bikewer

It's fairly easy to see where ideas of a "soul" sprang from primitive animism. Animism was apparently universally accepted by primitive peoples all over the world; an idea that made perfectly logical sense to our ancestors.

Things were alive because some sort of spirit "animated" them. When the spirit left, you died. Since these spirits existed apart from bodies, maybe the departing spirit lived on as well.

As human culture evolved, this notion got refined to the level of a "soul", which was also made to conform with whatever religious beliefs had evolved.

And in the end, that is pretty much where the question has to be answered, I think, from the religious perspective. I doubt the areligious would have enough invested to make it worth while coming up with an answer.

Surely some religious folk have contemplated the problem. Can't say I have ever seen it discussed.

Nex · 17th April 2006, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

...What's the catholic catechism say on the matter?

IIRC, I don't think it says anything about it. I could be wrong though -- it's been a long time since I was part of The Mommy Church.

*/me Wikis it*

Hmm, here. I don't really see it in there, but I'm in a rush so I may have missed it.

Meadmaker · 17th April 2006, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Yeah, but I ran into this problem basically the first time I really thought about half seriously. There has to be _some_ religious type who has thought about it enough to actually realize the problem and devise a solution, hasn't there? What's the catholic catechism say on the matter?

They've thought about the problem a great deal, and they don't see it as a problem.

I believe that the Catholic teaching is that the soul gets created by God, ready made for each individual. One person- one soul. A common misconception is that the church teaches that the soul enters the body at the moment of conception, and that this is the reason for its strict anti-abortion stance. Not so. The teaching is that the soul gets put in whenever God wants it to be put in, and we don't know when that is, but it's his job to decide whether it lives or dies, so deciding to kill the embry/zygote/fetus is His job, not yours.

As for whether or not there is a "problem" with this teaching, I don't see one. Whether the soul was there or not, there's no reason you ought to be aware of it, and there's certainly no reason you ought to remember it.

Lord Muck oGentry · 17th April 2006, 03:24 PM

Here's one cove who is pretty unimpressed by the idea:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../survival.html

Flew says it's the grin without the Cheshire cat.

Paul C. Anagnostopoulos · 17th April 2006, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mead

As for whether or not there is a "problem" with this teaching, I don't see one. Whether the soul was there or not, there's no reason you ought to be aware of it, and there's certainly no reason you ought to remember it.

So what's it for?

~~ Paul

Meadmaker · 17th April 2006, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos

So what's it for?

~~ Paul

If it existed, it would feel, experience, and do all sorts of things in the next life. It would also animate our bodies, providing the mechansim by which we achieve free will.

Complexity · 17th April 2006, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

If it existed, it would feel, experience, and do all sorts of things in the next life. It would also animate our bodies, providing the mechansim by which we achieve free will.

Belief in souls is silly, of course.

I'm curious about your assertion that the soul, if it exists, provides 'the mechanism by which we achieve free will'.

Does a cat have a soul?

Of course not. Neither do I.

Does a cat have free will?

My cat has free will as much as I do. I won't bother to address the slippery and irrelevant question of whether I do.

What, pray tell, is the purported mechanism through which the 'soul' influences the body, and through which the 'soul' is informed of what occurs in the mundane physical realm?

Bikewer · 17th April 2006, 07:36 PM

I think a lot of the speculation concerning the soul and it's "animation" of the body (and providing the source of consciousness) stemmed from the beginnings of the enlightenment. It was not possible for these deep thinkers to reconcile the simple-in-structure (to their eyes) human brain with all that we know it accomplishes. With no knowledge of the complex nature of the brain, and it's electrochemical processes, it's easy to forgive some speculation along the lines of Dualism, with a controlling "oversoul" providing the higher facets of human thinking.

Meadmaker · 17th April 2006, 09:31 PM

Originally Posted by Complexity

Belief in souls is silly, of course.

I'm curious about your assertion that the soul, if it exists, provides 'the mechanism by which we achieve free will'.

Does a cat have a soul?

Of course not. Neither do I.

Does a cat have free will?

My cat has free will as much as I do. I won't bother to address the slippery and irrelevant question of whether I do.

What, pray tell, is the purported mechanism through which the 'soul' influences the body, and through which the 'soul' is informed of what occurs in the mundane physical realm?

Those who purport a soul don't purport any particular mechanism, although the discovery of something sorf of like randomness within quantum mechanics is sometimes used.

It's not very scientific, but it is more appealing to people than the idea that these words that I am typing, and any reply to them, are just programmed responses, with no particular significance any greater than my snake's tendency to eat mice.

Dark Jaguar · 17th April 2006, 09:58 PM

The main issue I have with a soul is basically just from those claiming that it's the ONLY way to explain how we can be truly aware of the world and not just automatons. Basically, that issue is that the soul doesn't do the job of explaining anything. Every time I try to see the soul as somehow solving that problem, I end up asking "but what makes the SOUL aware?" and create an endless chain of homunculii.

Roboramma · 18th April 2006, 06:11 AM

I agree with the OP. The whole idea of a soul is just an outmoded explanation. We have a better one now (the brain).

If we accept that the brain does all the things that it seems to do, there just isn't any room left for a soul.

pgwenthold · 18th April 2006, 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

It's not very scientific, but it is more appealing to people than the idea that these words that I am typing, and any reply to them, are just programmed responses, with no particular significance any greater than my snake's tendency to eat mice.

So then when my dog grabs his squeaky toy in the morning and tries to get me to chase him, is that just a programmed response with no particular significance any greater than your snake's tendency to eat mice, or does he have a soul?

pgwenthold · 18th April 2006, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

As for whether or not there is a "problem" with this teaching, I don't see one. Whether the soul was there or not, there's no reason you ought to be aware of it,.

The question is not whether you are aware of having a soul, but whether your soul is aware of anything else. If god granted me a soul when I was baptized (just for example), then why am I not aware of anything that happened from before I was about 3 or so (and only then when my memory is jogged by pictures)? Either it seems my soul is not aware of anything that my brain does not remember, or that I did not have a soul up until that time.

If my soul is not aware of anything that my brain does not remember, then why should we worry about its fate after my brain is dead?

roger · 18th April 2006, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Nex

IIRC, I don't think it says anything about it. I could be wrong though -- it's been a long time since I was part of The Mommy Church.

*/me Wikis it*

Hmm, here. I don't really see it in there, but I'm in a rush so I may have missed it.

Here is a page from the U.S. Catholic Biships with the Catechism on this matter:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt1art1p6.htm

Nex · 18th April 2006, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by roger

Here is a page from the U.S. Catholic Biships with the Catechism on this matter:

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt1art1p6.htm

Thanks Roger.

The info on that page on "Body and Soul" starts here.

Rufo · 18th April 2006, 08:06 AM

I've always gotten the impression that the purpose of the soul is to remain when the brain moulders, so it can move on to heaven/hell/new creature/etc. That is why it's sometimes emphasized as the "eternal soul", and that is also a function which the brain does not have, which means the soul still serves a purpose.

Of course, there is no evidence that some part of us actually moves on, but what I'm saying is simply that the brain explanation can never replace the soul explanation.

pgwenthold · 18th April 2006, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by Rufo

I've always gotten the impression that the purpose of the soul is to remain when the brain moulders, so it can move on to heaven/hell/new creature/etc.

Yeah, but if my soul is only aware when it is with my active brain, then should the fate of my soul be of a concern to me? It matters not if my soul is in heaven praising god or being tormented in the fiery depths of hell if it is not accompanied by awareness.

You are right that knowing the brain does not rule out the concept of the soul, but what we do know makes it a pretty useless concept. All indications are that the awareness of our soul is completely tied to the awareness of our brain. Thus, when our brain dies, are we going to be aware of what our soul is encountering?

Meadmaker · 18th April 2006, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

So then when my dog grabs his squeaky toy in the morning and tries to get me to chase him, is that just a programmed response with no particular significance any greater than your snake's tendency to eat mice, or does he have a soul?

Your dog's squeaky toy, my snake's mice, and your thoughts are all of about the same significance, unless there's something like a soul involved.

Fizzer · 20th April 2006, 05:02 PM

Genesis 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

He became a living soul, he wasn't given a soul, or a soul wasn't created along with him. They are one and the same - the person is the soul.

AmyWilson · 20th April 2006, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

If my soul always existed, why don't I have any recollection of anything before I was born?

www.jonasridgeway.com/tech2.html
www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce14.html

There you go.

ImaginalDisc · 20th April 2006, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

www.jonasridgeway.com/tech2.html
www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce14.html

There you go.

Do you mind including some original thought, or are you merely a parrot?

AmyWilson · 20th April 2006, 10:42 PM

Astral body power!!!!!! Soul power!!!!!!!!!!!

It's true.

ImaginalDisc · 20th April 2006, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by AmyWilson

Astral body power!!!!!! Soul power!!!!!!!!!!!

It's true.

What the hell are you talking about? Talk sense. Write a complete paragraph or two, with topic scentences.

themyst · 20th April 2006, 10:52 PM

Sometimes I talk of a 'soul'. When I do I am talking about that ......

When you watch a child walk for the first time.
When you morn at the passing of a loved one.
When you laugh at the joy of living.

It is when you are most you.

Rufo · 21st April 2006, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by pgwenthold

Yeah, but if my soul is only aware when it is with my active brain, then should the fate of my soul be of a concern to me? It matters not if my soul is in heaven praising god or being tormented in the fiery depths of hell if it is not accompanied by awareness.

Supposedly it's not only aware when it is with your active brain. Just because it starts being aware when the brain does, and follows the brain's development, shares its memories, etc. does not mean it necessarily ceases to be aware when the brain does. Or to be more precise, the soul is your awareness, and the brain is its link to this world. When the link is no longer useful (the brain stops working), the soul frees itself from the physical world and your awareness is no longer dependant on the brain. Then the soul, your awareness, moves on to heaven/hell/new brain/whatever.

Now, it may sound stupid to talk about this entire thing like I knew exactly how it worked and that it actually existed. I'm not saying It's true (besides the phrase being ruined by a certain being of evil, I also have no idea if it is), all this is hypothetical. I'm simply trying to explain the concept.

pgwenthold · 21st April 2006, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rufo

Supposedly it's not only aware when it is with your active brain. Just because it starts being aware when the brain does, and follows the brain's development, shares its memories, etc. does not mean it necessarily ceases to be aware when the brain does.

Begs the question though, of why not? If it doesn't cease to be aware when the brain ceases, then why can't it be aware before the brain is?

Quote:

Or to be more precise, the soul is your awareness, and the brain is its link to this world.

If the soul is my awareness, and my brain is dead, then I am not aware, so then my soul loses awareness, right?

Quote:

When the link is no longer useful (the brain stops working), the soul frees itself from the physical world and your awareness is no longer dependant on the brain. Then the soul, your awareness, moves on to heaven/hell/new brain/whatever.

Again, it begs the question of why my soul wasn't active before I had a brain.

If a soul makes awareness not dependent on the brain, then why am I not aware of anything before my brain came into being?

If it is because the soul is slaving to the physical world, then why is there any reason to think that once my physical world awareness is gone that my post-physical soul "awareness" will be anything that resembles my physical world awareness?

Quote:

Now, it may sound stupid to talk about this entire thing like I knew exactly how it worked and that it actually existed. I'm not saying It's true (besides the phrase being ruined by a certain being of evil, I also have no idea if it is), all this is hypothetical. I'm simply trying to explain the concept.

Unfortunately, you aren't addressing any of the questions I asked.

I KNOW the lore about what the soul is supposed to be. However, when you examine them closely, it doesn't make sense.

If your soul is this "outside the physical realm" concept, then why is it so heavily tied to the physical realm?

17th April 2006, 02:46 PM	#1
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	What's the deal with the soul? Being Easter weekend and all, I was thinking about a confusing religious topic: the soul. Does anyone really understand what this is supposed to be? My biggest question of the soul has to do with its relation to the physical body. The religious will talk about the "eternal soul" and the such, but it doesn't quite make sense to me. For starters, where does our soul come from? Did it always exist, or was it not created until we were born? Let's consider the two options. If my soul always existed, why don't I have any recollection of anything before I was born? Heck, I don't even recollect from when I was very young. Why does my soulful awareness seem to just coincide with my brain development? If I had a soul but needed brain awareness in order to experience it, then why should I think the sensation of my soul will persist after my brain is dead? Eternal punishment won't be so much of a big deal if I am not able to conceive it. Alternatively, maybe my soul was just created when I was born. In that case, I shouldn't necessarily expect to have knowledge of before I was born, but again, why don't I have any awareness from before when my brain was able to do perceive it? Did my soul need to grow with my body? If so, why doesn't my soulful awareness also die with my body? As I think about it more, the whole CONCEPT of the "eternal soul" makes no sense at all.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

17th April 2006, 02:52 PM	#2
MWare Muse Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 666	Originally Posted by pgwenthold As I think about it more, the whole CONCEPT of the "eternal soul" makes no sense at all. and there you go
	__________________ “The plural of anecdote is not evidence." --George Stigler "I am all in favor of a dialogue between science and religion, but not a constructive dialogue. One of the great achievements of science has been, if not to make it impossible for intelligent people to be religious, then at least to make it possible for them not to be religious. We should not retreat from this accomplishment." --Steven Weinberg

17th April 2006, 03:05 PM	#4
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Originally Posted by MWare and there you go Yeah, but I ran into this problem basically the first time I really thought about half seriously. There has to be _some_ religious type who has thought about it enough to actually realize the problem and devise a solution, hasn't there? What's the catholic catechism say on the matter?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

17th April 2006, 03:09 PM	#5
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Originally Posted by Bikewer It's fairly easy to see where ideas of a "soul" sprang from primitive animism. Animism was apparently universally accepted by primitive peoples all over the world; an idea that made perfectly logical sense to our ancestors. Things were alive because some sort of spirit "animated" them. When the spirit left, you died. Since these spirits existed apart from bodies, maybe the departing spirit lived on as well. As human culture evolved, this notion got refined to the level of a "soul", which was also made to conform with whatever religious beliefs had evolved. And in the end, that is pretty much where the question has to be answered, I think, from the religious perspective. I doubt the areligious would have enough invested to make it worth while coming up with an answer. Surely some religious folk have contemplated the problem. Can't say I have ever seen it discussed.
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

17th April 2006, 03:18 PM	#6
Nex Forum Turnip Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: SC upstate Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by pgwenthold ...What's the catholic catechism say on the matter? IIRC, I don't think it says anything about it. I could be wrong though -- it's been a long time since I was part of The Mommy Church. /me Wikis it Hmm, here. I don't really see it in there, but I'm in a rush so I may have missed it.
	__________________ Currently brain-dead due to sudden-onset motherhood.

17th April 2006, 03:05 PM	#3
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,536	It's fairly easy to see where ideas of a "soul" sprang from primitive animism. Animism was apparently universally accepted by primitive peoples all over the world; an idea that made perfectly logical sense to our ancestors. Things were alive because some sort of spirit "animated" them. When the spirit left, you died. Since these spirits existed apart from bodies, maybe the departing spirit lived on as well. As human culture evolved, this notion got refined to the level of a "soul", which was also made to conform with whatever religious beliefs had evolved.

17th April 2006, 03:20 PM	#7
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Yeah, but I ran into this problem basically the first time I really thought about half seriously. There has to be _some_ religious type who has thought about it enough to actually realize the problem and devise a solution, hasn't there? What's the catholic catechism say on the matter? They've thought about the problem a great deal, and they don't see it as a problem. I believe that the Catholic teaching is that the soul gets created by God, ready made for each individual. One person- one soul. A common misconception is that the church teaches that the soul enters the body at the moment of conception, and that this is the reason for its strict anti-abortion stance. Not so. The teaching is that the soul gets put in whenever God wants it to be put in, and we don't know when that is, but it's his job to decide whether it lives or dies, so deciding to kill the embry/zygote/fetus is His job, not yours. As for whether or not there is a "problem" with this teaching, I don't see one. Whether the soul was there or not, there's no reason you ought to be aware of it, and there's certainly no reason you ought to remember it.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

17th April 2006, 03:24 PM	#8
Lord Muck oGentry Muse Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 986	Here's one cove who is pretty unimpressed by the idea: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../survival.html Flew says it's the grin without the Cheshire cat.
Lord Muck oGentry Muse Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 986

17th April 2006, 05:08 PM	#9
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Nap, interrupted. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: a little toolshed Posts: 18,592	Originally Posted by Mead As for whether or not there is a "problem" with this teaching, I don't see one. Whether the soul was there or not, there's no reason you ought to be aware of it, and there's certainly no reason you ought to remember it. So what's it for? ~~ Paul
	__________________ Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon. ---Susan Ertz RIP Mr. Skinny

17th April 2006, 06:01 PM	#10
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Originally Posted by Paul C. Anagnostopoulos So what's it for? ~~ Paul If it existed, it would feel, experience, and do all sorts of things in the next life. It would also animate our bodies, providing the mechansim by which we achieve free will.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

17th April 2006, 07:16 PM	#11
Complexity The Woo Whisperer Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minnesota, USA Posts: 9,263	Originally Posted by Meadmaker If it existed, it would feel, experience, and do all sorts of things in the next life. It would also animate our bodies, providing the mechansim by which we achieve free will. Belief in souls is silly, of course. I'm curious about your assertion that the soul, if it exists, provides 'the mechanism by which we achieve free will'. Does a cat have a soul? Of course not. Neither do I. Does a cat have free will? My cat has free will as much as I do. I won't bother to address the slippery and irrelevant question of whether I do. What, pray tell, is the purported mechanism through which the 'soul' influences the body, and through which the 'soul' is informed of what occurs in the mundane physical realm?
	__________________ "It is a great nuisance that knowledge can only be acquired by hard work." - W. Somerset Maugham "Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established intuititions, and comfortable habit. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid. Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man." - Bertrand Russell

17th April 2006, 07:36 PM	#12
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,536	I think a lot of the speculation concerning the soul and it's "animation" of the body (and providing the source of consciousness) stemmed from the beginnings of the enlightenment. It was not possible for these deep thinkers to reconcile the simple-in-structure (to their eyes) human brain with all that we know it accomplishes. With no knowledge of the complex nature of the brain, and it's electrochemical processes, it's easy to forgive some speculation along the lines of Dualism, with a controlling "oversoul" providing the higher facets of human thinking.

17th April 2006, 09:31 PM	#13
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Originally Posted by Complexity Belief in souls is silly, of course. I'm curious about your assertion that the soul, if it exists, provides 'the mechanism by which we achieve free will'. Does a cat have a soul? Of course not. Neither do I. Does a cat have free will? My cat has free will as much as I do. I won't bother to address the slippery and irrelevant question of whether I do. What, pray tell, is the purported mechanism through which the 'soul' influences the body, and through which the 'soul' is informed of what occurs in the mundane physical realm? Those who purport a soul don't purport any particular mechanism, although the discovery of something sorf of like randomness within quantum mechanics is sometimes used. It's not very scientific, but it is more appealing to people than the idea that these words that I am typing, and any reply to them, are just programmed responses, with no particular significance any greater than my snake's tendency to eat mice.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

17th April 2006, 09:58 PM	#14
Dark Jaguar Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,666	The main issue I have with a soul is basically just from those claiming that it's the ONLY way to explain how we can be truly aware of the world and not just automatons. Basically, that issue is that the soul doesn't do the job of explaining anything. Every time I try to see the soul as somehow solving that problem, I end up asking "but what makes the SOUL aware?" and create an endless chain of homunculii.

18th April 2006, 06:11 AM	#15
Roboramma Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 7,097	I agree with the OP. The whole idea of a soul is just an outmoded explanation. We have a better one now (the brain). If we accept that the brain does all the things that it seems to do, there just isn't any room left for a soul.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

18th April 2006, 07:29 AM	#16
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Originally Posted by Meadmaker It's not very scientific, but it is more appealing to people than the idea that these words that I am typing, and any reply to them, are just programmed responses, with no particular significance any greater than my snake's tendency to eat mice. So then when my dog grabs his squeaky toy in the morning and tries to get me to chase him, is that just a programmed response with no particular significance any greater than your snake's tendency to eat mice, or does he have a soul?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly) Last edited by pgwenthold; 18th April 2006 at 07:41 AM.

18th April 2006, 07:40 AM	#17
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Originally Posted by Meadmaker As for whether or not there is a "problem" with this teaching, I don't see one. Whether the soul was there or not, there's no reason you ought to be aware of it,. The question is not whether you are aware of having a soul, but whether your soul is aware of anything else. If god granted me a soul when I was baptized (just for example), then why am I not aware of anything that happened from before I was about 3 or so (and only then when my memory is jogged by pictures)? Either it seems my soul is not aware of anything that my brain does not remember, or that I did not have a soul up until that time. If my soul is not aware of anything that my brain does not remember, then why should we worry about its fate after my brain is dead?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

18th April 2006, 07:48 AM	#18
roger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA Posts: 11,021	Originally Posted by Nex IIRC, I don't think it says anything about it. I could be wrong though -- it's been a long time since I was part of The Mommy Church. /me Wikis it Hmm, here. I don't really see it in there, but I'm in a rush so I may have missed it. Here is a page from the U.S. Catholic Biships with the Catechism on this matter: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt1art1p6.htm

18th April 2006, 08:01 AM	#19
Nex Forum Turnip Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: SC upstate Posts: 1,666	Originally Posted by roger Here is a page from the U.S. Catholic Biships with the Catechism on this matter: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/...hpt1art1p6.htm Thanks Roger. The info on that page on "Body and Soul" starts here.
	__________________ Currently brain-dead due to sudden-onset motherhood.

18th April 2006, 08:06 AM	#20
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	I've always gotten the impression that the purpose of the soul is to remain when the brain moulders, so it can move on to heaven/hell/new creature/etc. That is why it's sometimes emphasized as the "eternal soul", and that is also a function which the brain does not have, which means the soul still serves a purpose. Of course, there is no evidence that some part of us actually moves on, but what I'm saying is simply that the brain explanation can never replace the soul explanation.
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	__________________ Love is patient, love is kind, says he [Paul] - so is humour too, for it is not offended by that which is ugly and offensive, it seeks out the lost and miserable and shows that they are worth interest - love is not angered, it does not judge - neither does humour - love forgives all - so does humour - love is humble - such is humour too, for humour makes men not consider themselves better than others. - Gustaf Fröding

18th April 2006, 08:25 AM	#21
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Originally Posted by Rufo I've always gotten the impression that the purpose of the soul is to remain when the brain moulders, so it can move on to heaven/hell/new creature/etc. Yeah, but if my soul is only aware when it is with my active brain, then should the fate of my soul be of a concern to me? It matters not if my soul is in heaven praising god or being tormented in the fiery depths of hell if it is not accompanied by awareness. You are right that knowing the brain does not rule out the concept of the soul, but what we do know makes it a pretty useless concept. All indications are that the awareness of our soul is completely tied to the awareness of our brain. Thus, when our brain dies, are we going to be aware of what our soul is encountering?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)

18th April 2006, 09:15 AM	#22
Meadmaker Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Detroit suburbs Posts: 11,453	Originally Posted by pgwenthold So then when my dog grabs his squeaky toy in the morning and tries to get me to chase him, is that just a programmed response with no particular significance any greater than your snake's tendency to eat mice, or does he have a soul? Your dog's squeaky toy, my snake's mice, and your thoughts are all of about the same significance, unless there's something like a soul involved.
	__________________ Dave "War is Peace. Freedom is slavery. Particles are waves."

20th April 2006, 05:02 PM	#23
Fizzer Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 175	Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." He became a living soul, he wasn't given a soul, or a soul wasn't created along with him. They are one and the same - the person is the soul.
Fizzer Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 175

20th April 2006, 10:31 PM	#24
AmyWilson Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 350	Originally Posted by pgwenthold If my soul always existed, why don't I have any recollection of anything before I was born? www.jonasridgeway.com/tech2.html www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce14.html There you go.

20th April 2006, 10:39 PM	#25
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by AmyWilson www.jonasridgeway.com/tech2.html www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce14.html There you go. Do you mind including some original thought, or are you merely a parrot?
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

20th April 2006, 10:42 PM	#26
AmyWilson Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 350	Astral body power!!!!!! Soul power!!!!!!!!!!! It's true.

20th April 2006, 10:45 PM	#27
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Originally Posted by AmyWilson Astral body power!!!!!! Soul power!!!!!!!!!!! It's true. What the hell are you talking about? Talk sense. Write a complete paragraph or two, with topic scentences.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47*

20th April 2006, 10:52 PM	#28
themyst We are God ... Not! Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Edenvale, Gauteng, South Africa Posts: 117	Sometimes I talk of a 'soul'. When I do I am talking about that ...... When you watch a child walk for the first time. When you morn at the passing of a loved one. When you laugh at the joy of living. It is when you are most you.
	__________________ "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" Carl Sagan "Scientists want criticism, they invite objections, they seek out ways to falsify hypotheses. But these criticisms, objections and falsifications must be logical, they must be self-consistent, and they must be scientific themselves." Phil Plait "A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere." Groucho Marx "If absolute power corrupts absolutely, where does that leave God?" George Deacon.

21st April 2006, 12:38 AM	#29
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	Originally Posted by pgwenthold Yeah, but if my soul is only aware when it is with my active brain, then should the fate of my soul be of a concern to me? It matters not if my soul is in heaven praising god or being tormented in the fiery depths of hell if it is not accompanied by awareness. Supposedly it's not only aware when it is with your active brain. Just because it starts being aware when the brain does, and follows the brain's development, shares its memories, etc. does not mean it necessarily ceases to be aware when the brain does. Or to be more precise, the soul is your awareness, and the brain is its link to this world. When the link is no longer useful (the brain stops working), the soul frees itself from the physical world and your awareness is no longer dependant on the brain. Then the soul, your awareness, moves on to heaven/hell/new brain/whatever. Now, it may sound stupid to talk about this entire thing like I knew exactly how it worked and that it actually existed. I'm not saying It's true (besides the phrase being ruined by a certain being of evil, I also have no idea if it is), all this is hypothetical. I'm simply trying to explain the concept.
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	__________________ Love is patient, love is kind, says he [Paul] - so is humour too, for it is not offended by that which is ugly and offensive, it seeks out the lost and miserable and shows that they are worth interest - love is not angered, it does not judge - neither does humour - love forgives all - so does humour - love is humble - such is humour too, for humour makes men not consider themselves better than others. - Gustaf Fröding

21st April 2006, 08:01 AM	#30
pgwenthold Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 12,074	Originally Posted by Rufo Supposedly it's not only aware when it is with your active brain. Just because it starts being aware when the brain does, and follows the brain's development, shares its memories, etc. does not mean it necessarily ceases to be aware when the brain does. Begs the question though, of why not? If it doesn't cease to be aware when the brain ceases, then why can't it be aware before the brain is? Quote: Or to be more precise, the soul is your awareness, and the brain is its link to this world. If the soul is my awareness, and my brain is dead, then I am not aware, so then my soul loses awareness, right? Quote: When the link is no longer useful (the brain stops working), the soul frees itself from the physical world and your awareness is no longer dependant on the brain. Then the soul, your awareness, moves on to heaven/hell/new brain/whatever. Again, it begs the question of why my soul wasn't active before I had a brain. If a soul makes awareness not dependent on the brain, then why am I not aware of anything before my brain came into being? If it is because the soul is slaving to the physical world, then why is there any reason to think that once my physical world awareness is gone that my post-physical soul "awareness" will be anything that resembles my physical world awareness? Quote: Now, it may sound stupid to talk about this entire thing like I knew exactly how it worked and that it actually existed. I'm not saying It's true (besides the phrase being ruined by a certain being of evil, I also have no idea if it is), all this is hypothetical. I'm simply trying to explain the concept. Unfortunately, you aren't addressing any of the questions I asked. I KNOW the lore about what the soul is supposed to be. However, when you examine them closely, it doesn't make sense. If your soul is this "outside the physical realm" concept, then why is it so heavily tied to the physical realm?
	__________________ "Baseball is a philosophy. The primordial ooze that once ruled our world has been captured in perpetual motion. Baseball is the moment. Its ever changing patterns are hypnotizing yet invigorating. Baseball is an art form. Classic and at the same time...progressive. Baseball is pre-historic and post-modern. Baseball is here to stay." (Stolen from the side of a lava lamp box, and modified slightly)