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Old 10th July 2006, 02:44 PM   #1
Skeptical Greg
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Bigfoot_ The Skookum Cast

We have discussed this at length in other threads..

I thought a new analysis by BFF member ' DesertYeti ' brings a nice perspective to the skeptical side of the table..

Here is the text of the original post ( with DY's permission ) and a link to the thread..

http://www.bigfootforums.com/index.p...dpost&p=326297

Quote:
Here's a preliminary report (written in classic, dry scientific style...my apologies), with accompanying first-draft figures of my study of the Skookum Cast. I want to stress that I traced out only those features that exist on the cast, and made no interpretation of them until after I was done with the photowork. This is standard practice is straigraphic geology, where we work with photopanels of outcrops, trace surfaces and features, then double-check them on the actual outcrop or specimens. This serves as a safety-check and helps correct errors made from 2-d images. The interpretation shown here is preliminary, and a newer one exists, but I still need to double check a couple of minor features. I know plenty of people will disagree with this study, and that's fine. All I can say is, look at the specimen yourself if you get a chance, and remember Occam's Razor!

Introduction
The “Skookum Cast” as it has become widely known is a Hydrocal plaster specimen of a body imprint collected in September, 2000 by Rick Noll, members of the Bigfoot Field Researchers Organization, and a television documentary crew. Although nothing has been formally published on the specimen, it has been touted as representing some of the best available evidence for the existence of Bigfoot. Yet no formal study or detailed interpretation of the cast has been published since its discovery.
The purpose of this study was to examine the slab and couterslab of the Skookum Cast in order to: 1) document the occurrence of footprints, body prints, and hair flow patterns; 2) compare these traces to known animal sign in an effort to identify the makers; and 3) evaluate previous claims that the Skookum Cast represents clear evidence for the existence of a large, hairy, non-human, North American hominid.

Materials and Methods
The cast and counterslab of the “Skookum Cast” were examined in detail, and high-resolution photographs were shot for use in photo-interpretative work. Interpretations were digitally traced directly over the photos, and later compared to the actual specimens to verify the details. First-order surfaces are those that are readily apparent, 3-d shapes in the cast, exhibiting textures and morphologies characteristic of animal traces and were traced in a heavy line. Second-order surfaces include hair patters and surficial textures and were traced in a lighter-weight line. All surfaces were traced and compared to the specimen, and no attempt was made during the tracing to interpret structures, morphologies, or the originator of the trace. Only upon completion of the tracing exercise were the results compared to casts of tracks of known animals, and also published examples of animal tracks and sign (see Elbroch, 2003).

Results
In addition to the large body trace evident in the cast, four elk hoof prints, at least seven canid prints, and two boot prints are visible (Figs. 1, 2). Hair flow patterns are clearly preserved over much of the body trace, and match the pattern of flow in resting traces of large, hoofed mammals, including elk (see Figs. 1, 2). Although dermatoglyphic ridges have been informally reported on the “heel”, here interpreted as the wrist, none were evident to me during examination of the specimen. The elk hoof prints exhibit the characteristic rounded anterior margin and emarginated posterior margin of the species’ hoof morphology and are deeply impressed into the mud, ranging from 2-5 cm in depth.
The canid track was formed after the elk had moved away from the area as demonstrated by the superimposition of the canid’s prints over the main body imprint. The boot prints were left by the researchers at the site.

Discussion
The Skookum Cast appears to be a perfect example of forcing data to fit a pre-formed conclusion. In this case, the researchers were out to find evidence of Bigfoot, and this colored their interpretation of the evidence. Despite the complete lack of any Bigfoot prints on any part of the specimen, or in the immediate vicinity, the Skookum Cast continues to be lauded as some of the best evidence available for the existence of large, non-human North American hominids. Elk hoof prints found in direct association with the body imprint, combined with the very characteristic hair flow patterns readily apparent on the imprint immediately suggest that the specimen represents an elk lay (see Elbroch, 2003 for a discussion of the characteristics of ungulate lays).
The elk body print clearly evident in the Skookum Cast reveals the animal’s flank, butt, thigh, knee, shin, and metatarsals in precisely the areas where they would be expected (see Elbroch, 2003; Fig. 2). The curvature so readily apparent in the anterior impression of the elk’s thigh and knee were interpreted as the imprint of the gluteus maximus of a large hominid by at least some of the researchers who examined the cast (Murphy, 2004). The metatarsal imprints were likewise interpreted as the forearm of a hominid, and the imprints of the wrist and metacarpus became a “heel imprint.” The paired wrist and metacarpus imprints are characteristic of elk, deer, and other ungulate lay traces (see Elbroch, 2003). Significantly, the lack of hoof prints directly within the outline of the main body print is exactly what is seen in deer, elk, and other ungulate lays (see Elbroch, 2003). Hoof prints found outside the main body outline, but related to the forelegs reveal how the animal stood up.
Since none of the previous interpretations of the Skookum Cast have been formally published, it is impossible to evaluate all the claims surrounding the specimen. Nor is it possible to determine from the available information whether any of the researchers involved in its analysis have actually compared the specimen to known elk lays. There is little doubt that anyone actually making a comparison between the Skookum Cast and an elk lay would find the resemblance absolutely compelling. To this end, it is perhaps significant that a young couple examining the cast at a recent exhibition looked at it for roughly three seconds before the young lady summed up her interpretation in a mild Texas accent: “It looks just like a cow.”

Conclusions
The main body of the Skookum Cast represents a near-perfect body outline of an elk. The flanks, butt, thigh, knee, shin, metatarsals, metacarpals, wrist, and possible head imprints are all clearly visible and in exactly the position in which they’d be expected. The position of the hoof prints demonstrates how the animal raised itself up from its resting position. At some later time, a coyote walked through the site, and finally, the site was visited by the researchers and a cast made.

References Cited

Elbroch, M., 2003, Mammal Tracks and Sign, Stackpole Books, Mechanicsburg, PA, 779 p.

Murphy, C. L., 2004, Meet the Sasquatch, Hancock House Publishers, Blaine, WA, 239 p.
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Old 11th July 2006, 05:13 AM   #2
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Interesting. Of course, to believers, it's still not good enough--the couple of replies I saw over there from Footers seemed to hinge on appeal-to-authority fallacies ("so you took some pictures and refuted everything all these professionals said...").

I do find it heartening that one of the Footer investigators (Richard Noll) was willing to work with him, even if he didn't agree with the conclusions. It shows there's some willingness for independent investigation among the Footers.
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Old 11th July 2006, 06:16 AM   #3
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And twenty years from now that bizarre piece of non-evidence will still be touted as "the actual imprint of Bigfoot!", because, after all, no one didn't see Sasquatch squatting in the mud.
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Old 11th July 2006, 10:07 AM   #4
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Surely Dr. Meldrum will be delaying the publication of his companion Book to LMS, to include this information...
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Old 11th July 2006, 10:42 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
Surely Dr. Meldrum will be delaying the publication of his companion Book to LMS, to include this information...
Got some inside information on that?

Why is it so "sure"?
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Old 11th July 2006, 11:08 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Got some inside information on that?

Why is it so "sure"?
Surely you recognize sarcasm when you see it ?


No ?

I thought LMS was scientific ? You know, objective ? Presenting alternate viewpoints ?

No ?
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Old 11th July 2006, 11:44 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntster :
Got some inside information on that?

Why is it so "sure"?
Surely you recognize sarcasm when you see it ?
Yup. I sure do.

I didn't see it.

Quote:
No ?

I thought LMS was scientific ? You know, objective ? Presenting alternate viewpoints ?

No ?
So Meldrum has a responsibility to delay his work to include DesertYeti's study?
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Old 11th July 2006, 11:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Yup. I sure do.

I didn't see it.



So Meldrum has a responsibility to delay his work to include DesertYeti's study?
I certainly believe he does do.. How about you ?

You don't think the implied conclusions about the Skookum cast in LMS are misleading, at best ?

How about they just take the one sided presentation about the Skookum cast out of the book ?

Would that be O.K. ?


Maybe I should dig up some of your rants about how science ignores Bigfoot ?
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Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 11th July 2006 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 11th July 2006, 02:26 PM   #9
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Presenting and comenting other interpretations is the standard -and recomended- proceedure when writing a scientific article (yeah yeah yeah, at an abstract or extended abstract from a congress this may be impossible).

However, one must bear in mind that sometimes new data (or interpretations) can not be addresed at a paper due to printing schedule. With books, its much more complicated, Its not completely unusual for a book to be published with sections already outdated. All it takes is a new paper to be published when no more changes in the book are allowed due to its release schedule.

If this partiular interpretation is not commented in the book, it may not be Meldrum's fault at all.

But we must bear in mind that the interpretation of Skookum cast as being from an elk is not new, even if it was never presented in such a detailed way. This should be addressed, and if he concludes the cast is from a bigfoot, he must say what were the criteria he used to conclude its not from an elk.
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Old 11th July 2006, 03:06 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Diogenes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntster :
....So Meldrum has a responsibility to delay his work to include DesertYeti's study?
I certainly believe he does do.. How about you ?
Of course not. Depending on what point in publication he is, he might add a sentence or two stating that the great, famous "DesertYeti", an unknown screen name on the internet, has looked at the casts and determined it to be that of an elk, but I wouldn't bother.

DesertYeti is free to publish his opinion just like Dr. Meldrum, you, or I are.

Quote:
You don't think the implied conclusions about the Skookum cast in LMS are misleading, at best ?
I don't know. I haven't read them.

Quote:
How about they just take the one sided presentation about the Skookum cast out of the book ?
If it was my book, I'd do with it as I damned well pleased.

Quote:
Would that be O.K. ?
Ask Dr. Meldrum.

Quote:
Maybe I should dig up some of your rants about how science ignores Bigfoot ?
Go right ahead. If you're patient, maybe I'll give you some more right here in this thread.
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Old 11th July 2006, 04:01 PM   #11
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Bah!

I already told everyone all that about that cast.

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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 12th July 2006, 06:06 AM   #12
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For me one of the greatest moments of bigfoot high comedy is Esteban Sarmiento (sp?) in LMS looking up at the camera wearing the huge magnifying goggles while looking for hair samples on the Skookum cast and his flowing Latin lover locks are hanging everywhere. It's priceless. I see that and I sometimes imagine Wes Anderson doing a similar treatment with bigfoot researchers that he did with ocean documentarians in 'The Life Aquatic'.
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Old 12th July 2006, 07:30 AM   #13
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Hey all,
First-time poster, long-time lurker. well, not really that long. I'm the author of the Skookum Cast first-draft preliminary study above. I have an M.S. in paleontology and a Ph.D. in sedimentary geology, and have worked extensively with ichnofossils for about 12 years. The reaction on the BFF was about what I expected. Despite having never seen it, or an elk trace for that matter, several of the BFers launched the predictable "who the hell are you...you didn't study it long enough...why should we take your word over our 'experts?!'" type of tyrade. Many more however, were actually complimentary of my study.

Mark Elbroch, whose book I used as a conveneient, authoritative, and recent reference in the hopes that BFers would actually take the time to investigate how "real" trackers work, has weighed in and agrees with my interpetation as well. There is no controversy as to the identity of this particular cast. Anyone with one working eye and an ounce of common sense can see that it's an elk or large deer trace.

I should also clarrify that Rick Noll's help on the matter consists of critiques, not actually providing any data or additional information. He's my litmus test, and I appreciate his attempts to punch holes in my observations. They help strengthen the overall study.

As for Meldrum's book and publications, I actually am toying with the idea of submitting a final draft of this work to Ichnos or a similar journal. Meldrum's book can include or exclude whatever he wants. Everyone I've spoken to in academic circles thinks it'd be a real hoot if I published this note, and help liven up the sometimes less than action-packed ichnofossil publications. We'll see. Anyway, thanks and I look forward to haunting this forum in future!
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Old 12th July 2006, 07:53 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by desertyeti
Hey all,
First-time poster, long-time lurker. well, not really that long. I'm the author of the Skookum Cast first-draft preliminary study above. I have an M.S. in paleontology and a Ph.D. in sedimentary geology, and have worked extensively with ichnofossils for about 12 years.
Welcome to the forums! Well done analysis.
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Old 12th July 2006, 07:57 AM   #15
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Mnay thanks.
If only the researchers who found it 6 years ago had actually taken a moment to look at a known elk lay, this could have all been avoided...no...wait...probably not. After all, one of the first things they were talking about in the press was how this specimen was their ticket to big-time funding from a granting institution for further "fieldwork."
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Old 12th July 2006, 08:22 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Bah!

I already told everyone all that about that cast.

Yes you did..

However, you failed to endear yourself to the Supreme Council at
BFF, then post a professional looking analysis that made previous
presentations on the cast look like Grade School science projects..
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Old 12th July 2006, 08:28 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by desertyeti View Post
Mnay thanks.
If only the researchers who found it 6 years ago had actually taken a moment to look at a known elk lay, this could have all been avoided...no...wait...probably not. After all, one of the first things they were talking about in the press was how this specimen was their ticket to big-time funding from a granting institution for further "fieldwork."
Yeah, but you really can't blame them.. It wasn't like they had anything pointing to
an elk, like hoof prints and elk hair ...

No ! Wait ! They did !!

That's Bigfoot for you.. Planting fake evidence..


Do you think Meldrum will acknowledge your presentation ?
Chance to see where he is really coming from ...
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Old 12th July 2006, 08:55 AM   #18
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I don't know what Jeff will do with this. I haven't sent him any drafts of the work yet. Considering his likely bias, I opted to consult with people who had NO preconcieved notions about whether or not BF exists and seek their comments and criticisms. I contacted Rick Noll since he actually has the original specimen (I think), but I'm reasonably sure that the replica is close enough to the original to not require a thorough study of the original (of course, he disagrees). Hell...it looks like an elk lay...what more does one need?

My hunch, and it's only a guess is that if he mentiones my work at all, Jeff may laugh it off in the same dismissive, off-handed way that creationists use when discussing fossils. Either way, I don't really care. I'm reasonably certain that anyone with more than 8 firing neurons could look at his "evidence" and my data and immediately recognize the cast for what it is. Well...maybe only 4 neurons are required...it's a pretty open and shut case.
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Old 12th July 2006, 08:59 AM   #19
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desertyeti, welcome! Thanks for posting your study, and we're glad to have you here. Well, I am, can't speak for Huntster.
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Old 12th July 2006, 09:04 AM   #20
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Thanks Cleon!
Ol' Huntster's pretty skeptical of skeptical thinking, and that's good. He helps keep everyone honest and true to the data. Data are never wrong...but interpretations usually are!
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Old 12th July 2006, 09:19 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
....can't speak for Huntster.
Why not? You've done it before.
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Old 12th July 2006, 11:46 AM   #22
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Welcome to the board, desertyeti! That was an exellent analysis on the Skookum cast. It's too bad that some people will continue to refuse the obvious even with something that was pretty weak to begin with. Who was the boner who came up with the idea of putting a bait trap in mud to get some more useless footprints put didn't have the wattage upstairs to put out a trailcam? Edited to fix exclamation mark.

Last edited by kitakaze; 12th July 2006 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 12th July 2006, 12:42 PM   #23
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Heya Kitakaze, thanks for your compliment. I'm not sure who the "boner" was that didn't think about using a camera system, but mud instead...it's hard not to laugh writing that one!
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Old 12th July 2006, 01:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
...Who was the boner who came up with the idea of putting a bait trap in mud to get some more useless footprints put didn't have the wattage upstairs to put out a trailcam?....
Maybe somebody with the money to buy apples, but not enough to buy trailcams.
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Old 12th July 2006, 01:22 PM   #25
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Desertyeti, you're most welcome. Love your latest avatar at the BFF, BTW. You gotta stay in form here, too. This is a great board and I'm sure you'll enjoy it very much. I came and joined here after lurking over at the BFF for a very long time and I think you'll find a great many intelligent, insightful people that will give serious BF claims a fair hearing. While we differ on some points, Huntster and I might be the only ones that I'm aware of that aren't pretty firmly in the 'no, I don't think so' camp but then again I'll be the first one to admit that after weighing the evidence any other camp is getting to be a tougher and tougher sell. If bigfoot day ever comes he gets to serve heaps of crow and get to nibble on a few crow wings with a celebratory beer while I tell everbody that I was really on the other guys team from the start.
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Old 12th July 2006, 01:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
...While we differ on some points, Huntster and I might be the only ones that I'm aware of that aren't pretty firmly in the 'no, I don't think so' camp but then again I'll be the first one to admit that after weighing the evidence any other camp is getting to be a tougher and tougher sell......
I'm not a salesman. I'm a consumer.

I'm here defending my right to buy whatever I see fit.
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Old 12th July 2006, 01:31 PM   #27
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Yeah, looks like I'll maybe set up camp for a while here...lesse...need a spanking new avataar...hmmmmmm...
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Old 12th July 2006, 01:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Maybe somebody with the money to buy apples, but not enough to buy trailcams.
Fair answer and a fair question in turn. Seeing as how this was a BFRO deal in 2000 do you think they could afford trailcams but thought fruit in mud was a more cost effective route to obtaining irrefutable evidence?
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Old 12th July 2006, 02:06 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntster :
Maybe somebody with the money to buy apples, but not enough to buy trailcams.
Fair answer and a fair question in turn. Seeing as how this was a BFRO deal in 2000 do you think they could afford trailcams but thought fruit in mud was a more cost effective route to obtaining irrefutable evidence?
Fair question returned. The answer appears to be that it wasn't a money problem, but the fact that remote cameras weren't used, while much more expensive night viewing equipment was; equipment which wasn't deployed at the spot where the cast was found.

The BFRO website regarding the discovery of the cast has a very detailed outline of objectives and activities. Night vision equipment was obtained and tested for viability.

Maybe if they had relied on a trailcam at the site (and all other sites where bait was deployed, none of which got a cast) they would have gotten a photo that the folks here could roundly belittle with great glee.

Had the "expedition" gotten a photo through one of the manned thermal cameras (which didn't occur) we would still have a photo that folks here could ride like a bronc.

Me? Six of one, half dozen of the other. The Skookum Cast has never been much of an issue for me (go ahead, y'all; run the search engine). Why? It's meaningless, whether it's the real thing or not.

Ditto a trailcam photo.
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Old 12th July 2006, 02:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Ditto a trailcam photo.
Shall we do the boobytrap thing again? JK
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Old 12th July 2006, 02:33 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntster :
Ditto a trailcam photo.
Shall we do the boobytrap thing again? JK
Trapping with a food bait is indescriminate.

Elk love apples..........
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Old 12th July 2006, 02:57 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Trapping with a food bait is indescriminate.

Elk love apples..........
Golden Delicious for me, thanks. But wait. Huntster, while my mind's still on it, let's back up to post #26 for a sec.
Quote:
I'm not a salesman. I'm a consumer.

I'm here defending my right to buy whatever I see fit.
In Japanese we could say this is 'sasuga Huntster' (roughly 'totally Huntster'). I mean it's a Huntsterism (isn't that cool, you get an -ism?) and a darn fine one but wait, we're talking about sasquatches. If this were the religion and philosophy forum you could and have come out and kept on swinging with that. IMHO, when we're discussing whether or not bigfoot exists on a skeptic's board (are we not?) it doesn't seem to be the time to speak about what one has the right to believe. As far as BF is concerned, I'd far rather know one way or the other as opposed to believe.
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Old 12th July 2006, 02:58 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
...........
Maybe if they had relied on a trailcam at the site (and all other sites where bait was deployed, none of which got a cast) they would have gotten a photo that the folks here could roundly belittle with great glee.
......................
Nope..

If that were the case, there would be no self styled Bigfootologists finding Bigfoot testicle prints in an elk wallow..

Nothing to belittle.. Nothing to see.. Keep moving..
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Old 12th July 2006, 04:12 PM   #34
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Nice work and welcome to the forums, Desertyeti!

You know, sooner or later we'll ask your opinion on the alleged bigfoot footpints pics linked and relinked every now and then. Yep, just pics, there are resolution, distortion and scale problems...

Just out of curiosity, you are working with exactly what sort of ichnofossils? You would not be, by some sheer luck, in to some Cambrian stuff, would you ?
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Old 12th July 2006, 05:10 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
...But wait. Huntster, while my mind's still on it, let's back up to post #26 for a sec.
Quote:
I'm not a salesman. I'm a consumer.

I'm here defending my right to buy whatever I see fit.
In Japanese we could say this is 'sasuga Huntster' (roughly 'totally Huntster'). I mean it's a Huntsterism (isn't that cool, you get an -ism?) and a darn fine one but wait, we're talking about sasquatches. If this were the religion and philosophy forum you could and have come out and kept on swinging with that. IMHO, when we're discussing whether or not bigfoot exists on a skeptic's board (are we not?) it doesn't seem to be the time to speak about what one has the right to believe....
I understand and agree what you're saying. In fact, I'd like to say that I know sasquatch exists. Unfortunately, I can't.

If I do (and as soon as I do), the skeptics here would (rightly) demand proof that I know (because "to know" is "certainty"). I don't have that proof, nor overwhelming evidence. There's plenty of evidence out there, and I saw evidence that (to me) is convincing, but it cannot hold water for others. I can only believe, if I have any hope of justifying my position (and even then, skeptics who have an ideological opposition to "belief" are a constant scourge on my ass around here).

Finally, notice my statements above:

Quote:
I'm not a salesman. I'm a consumer....
I don't need to convince anyone of anything. I don't think I could, anyway. I'm one of the guys wandering around in the market (forest) who saw the product (evidence), and get a little tired of folks telling me that it "doesn't exist", or that I'm a fool for considering the purchase.

Quote:
I'm here defending my right to buy whatever I see fit
I didn't say "buy what I believe". It's "buy whatever I see fit."

I could be wrong, but I don't think so. I think those critters are out there. That's my right, and it isn't contingent on making others believe, or proving anything to anyone.

Quote:
As far as BF is concerned, I'd far rather know one way or the other as opposed to believe.
Me, too. But I learned long ago that I may not get what I'd like. This may be one of those cases. I might go to the grave without ever having seen the real thing, live, and in person.

Oh, well. That's the breaks.
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Old 13th July 2006, 06:58 AM   #36
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Correa Neto, actually, I have looked at some Cambrian specimens! Nothing spectacular, but some Cruziana, Skolithos, and Arenicolites in outcrops of the Flathead Sandstone in Wyoming. But I'll look at any trace, anywhere, for any reason...well...mostly any reason!
Why you ask?
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Old 13th July 2006, 07:43 AM   #37
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*cue Minnie Ripperton* Correa Neto, Desertyeti. Desertyeti, Correa Neto. Yeaaaahhh, JK.
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Old 13th July 2006, 07:54 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Me, too. But I learned long ago that I may not get what I'd like. This may be one of those cases. I might go to the grave without ever having seen the real thing, live, and in person.

Oh, well. That's the breaks.
Huntster, I know we've got a couple of decades between us but I'm beginning to have ever stronger doubts about how long living sasquatches would be able to allude scientific description. Mind you if and when I do become a full fledged skeptic in regards to BF, I'll probably be a really bitter, nasty one.
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Old 13th July 2006, 08:52 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by kitakaze View Post
Huntster, I know we've got a couple of decades between us but I'm beginning to have ever stronger doubts about how long living sasquatches would be able to allude scientific description....
I don't. I have no doubt that such a rare and intelligent creature could still be out there, being seen regularly by the lay, and with science busy looking for other bone fragments and chasing global warming politics.

Quote:
Mind you if and when I do become a full fledged skeptic in regards to BF, I'll probably be a really bitter, nasty one.
I'm in my final third of my life (if I'm lucky). I could easily go to the grave with this phenomenon still raging.

In fact, that is likely.
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Old 13th July 2006, 09:09 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
I don't. I have no doubt that such a rare and intelligent creature could still be out there, being seen regularly by the lay, and with science busy looking for other bone fragments and chasing global warming politics.
This is the part that I have a tough time with. To be regularily seen by the lay then you have to at least sometimes be seen by the not-so-lay or the not-so-unarmed or the not-so-paying-attention-to-the-road. I know we've gone over that and rarity ad pukem but for me it does give me doubt even against my own experience we don't have any conclusive proof of any of the above happening.
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