God vs Satan?

pmckean · 3rd September 2006, 03:44 AM

Right, I'm no expert on religion, but as I understand it one general theme of Christianity is that there are two powerful forces, good and evil. Here's my wonderfully simplistic and (probably) erroneous expression of this belief;

Good is represented by an omnipotent, omniscient "father figure" who created EVERYTHING. It's called God. If you choose the path of goodness, then when you die, your soul gets to go to a wonderful place called heaven.

Evil is represented by an Angel called Lucifer who fell out of favour with God and was cast out of heaven. He made his own domain, and now battles with God for the souls of humankind by encouraging badness. If you choose the path of evil, you get to go to his place - HELL - where you will suffer for all eternity.

OK, maybe I'm getting this all wrong, because I can't get it to make sense. Here's my problem; if God is all-powerful, why does he continue to suffer the existence of Lucifer? Surely he could just do away with him and end the suffering of all those poor souls who are trapped within his infernal demesne.

The only reason I can think for the continued existence of Satan is that God ALLOWS Satan to continue running Hell, but isn't it profoundly disturbing that a deity billed as all-merciful, loving and kind could allow you to be condemed for all of time to unimaginable agony?

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

TragicMonkey · 3rd September 2006, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by pmckean

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Bikewer · 3rd September 2006, 06:09 AM

You can't knock these ideas down with simple, staightforward logic. Don't you know that it's sinful to try to know the "Mind Of God"? Why, intellectual Christian apologists have written reams of gobbedygook explaining these things.

icantlogoff · 3rd September 2006, 08:00 AM

When i was a JW, it was explained as a sovereignty issue. Namely Satan's challenge at the beginning was that man didn't need God (the whole garden of Eden thing and the tree). So the point/challenge that Satan put forward was just that, so since then god removed his protection, and allowed man to take his own course, now as it was explained all the suffering/illness etc, is down to god being proved right that man can not rule himself.

Anyway that is how it was explained to me back then.

regards

Steve

pmckean · 3rd September 2006, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Ah! I've often wondered if true Christians love their God or are just too afraid to express otherwise. However, if God can see into the hearts and minds of man, he already knows that is feared - so what's the point in pretending otherwise?

Are there clearly defines rules for what constitutes a win for the devil or for the angels? I hope it's not all done by commandments - I've broken so many of those, I've lost count, and I continue to break them all the time. In fact, it's less than five minutes since I broke my last commandment, and I'll do a few more before the end of the day.

pmckean · 3rd September 2006, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by icantlogoff

Satan's challenge at the beginning was that man didn't need God (the whole garden of Eden thing and the tree). So the point/challenge that Satan put forward was just that, so since then god removed his protection, and allowed man to take his own course, now as it was explained all the suffering/illness etc, is down to god being proved right that man can not rule himself.

So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?

fuelair · 3rd September 2006, 08:38 AM

Since its' all fairytales anyway, let's go for the hard reality. The people who built up this silliness over a rather long time needed something to put a little kick into the "be good" (do what we tell you) thing so they invented Satan/Lucifer/ the boogeyman (well, the boogyman is real - but that's another story) and Hell/Sheol to scare the people who might not just grab for the "be good,heaven" part for goodness sake into grabbing for it out of fear. Doesn't work all that well but.....

Foster Zygote · 3rd September 2006, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by pmckean

So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?

As illustrated in microcosm by his hazing of Job.

Steven

TragicMonkey · 3rd September 2006, 08:54 AM

Satan is God's roommate. He's a bit of a pill, and doesn't pay the bills on time, but he's fun to have around sometimes, and God can't manage the rent on his own. So he puts up with the dirty socks lying in the living room, and the dishes in the sink, and Satan's constantly using his shampoo. For God's sake, it's the $2.99 Food Lion knockoff of Pert Plus, which is itself hardly the premier of shampoos. Why the hell can't he buy his own? He's practically bald anyway!!!

Dave1001 · 3rd September 2006, 08:58 AM

It's not that complicated. God wants us to obey him and love him due to free choice, rather than coercion. As for whether or not God is all-merciful, all-loving, and all-kind, let's leave it at this: that's what God WANTS us to say that he is. I think the logic on this point is internally consistent.

Foster Zygote · 3rd September 2006, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Satan is God's roommate. He's a bit of a pill, and doesn't pay the bills on time, but he's fun to have around sometimes, and God can't manage the rent on his own. So he puts up with the dirty socks lying in the living room, and the dishes in the sink, and Satan's constantly using his shampoo. For God's sake, it's the $2.99 Food Lion knockoff of Pert Plus, which is itself hardly the premier of shampoos. Why the hell can't he buy his own? He's practically bald anyway!!!

To all: The above is even funnier if you hum or whistle the theme from The Odd Couple while reading it.

Steven

CplFerro · 3rd September 2006, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by pmckean

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

Dear p,

It all comes down to Justice. God's perfect justice is infinitely offended by even an infinitesimal sin, and thus "requires" infinite punishment to assuage. The answer is simply that God loves his own justice more than he does sinners, and so he is willing to do anything whatever to sinners in order to satisfy himself. While this is ongoing, amidst the endless screaming, he tells them that this is "what they really wanted by choosing to reject his love."

His power and love are infinite, but they are ruled by justice.

Cpl Ferro

SusanB-M1 · 3rd September 2006, 10:38 AM

God v Satan ...both just words, given to human concepts, so I can't get any further than that!

elaine · 3rd September 2006, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

As illustrated in microcosm by his hazing of Job.

Steven

That's best description of the account I've ever heard.

icantlogoff · 3rd September 2006, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by mckean

So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?

I know it is totally stupid.

This was one of the main reason i started to question everything, the fact that is you look at the whole Satan and God thing, they do seem pals. Almost a way to kick people into line. What is wrong and hence the work of Satan is always defined by peoples own perception... I was told constantly that listen to the Band Marillion was demonic music! and we all know its was Britney Spears that is the one.

People see some sort of demonic vision and they run or pray to God , seems to be a self defeating exercise for Satan in my own view, unless he is in league with God.

But I don't believe in either of these Bible Characters

regards

Steve

Ausmerican · 3rd September 2006, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Batman would and has. And hey Batman even looks a little like Satan. Maybe Big G keeps his old homey around to keep him level headed. Now if only his followers had someone like that....

clarsct · 3rd September 2006, 09:28 PM

http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2...12056&start=40

At the top of page 2 of this thread, I have outlined the entire problem, of which this is merely a facet.

I hope you find it interesting.

JayT · 3rd September 2006, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Dave1001

It's not that complicated. God wants us to obey him and love him due to free choice, rather than coercion. As for whether or not God is all-merciful, all-loving, and all-kind, let's leave it at this: that's what God WANTS us to say that he is. I think the logic on this point is internally consistent.

Some authorities on the Bible disagree:

Quote:

predestination

God's pre-arranged intentions for the destiny of human beings. Because of the history of this concept in Christian theology (e.g. by Augustine and Calvin), it is associated with the idea of an inscrutable God who from eternity had decided that some are to be ‘saved’ and others ‘condemned’.

A Dictionary of the Bible 1997, originally published by Oxford University Press 1997

Free will according to the Bible is:
Believe in me totally with no evidence at all or I will destroy and torture you for all eternity. The choice is yours. In other words, you have free will.

Free will does NOT involve threats of doom, death and damnation for lack of blind, unreasoning faith, to force someone by morbid fear and terror into choosing what you want them to do, or else. That's loving, kind and merciful? If so, I'd hate to see God in a bad mood. I must be missing something. Without fear and terror as their foundation, religions would have no power to control people - and they know it too and capitalise on it to the max - right up to this very moment.

That is called threats or coercion.

Quote:

threat // n.

A declaration of an intention to punish or hurt.

I think the destructive qualities of religion infinitely outweighs its benefits. Unless history is all a lie.

God cannot, nor deserves to be trusted.

Quote:

Ezekiel 14:9

And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

So why should I trust anything his prophets say after reading that?

or

Quote:

Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began. (emphasis added).

But prophets who are wrong are to be put to death - the bible says so - does that mean even if God made them wrong by lying to them too, and how would anyone know?

Quote:

Isaiah 6:5

For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Quote:

1 John 4:12

No man hath seen God at any time.

Is that logic internally consistent?

First he's a liar, then he cannot lie. A man saw God with his own eyes and then nobody has ever seen him. But the bible never contradicts. Mere samples of countless more diametric contradictions that the disease of blind, unreasoning belief will deliberately not see but honest intelligence can plainly see.

And that's only the tiny tip of a very dirty iceberg.

Good grief!

Nuff, said.

Beerina · 5th September 2006, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

Quote:

Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH.

Some mistake, surely?

Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?

Guilty!

And an infinitely powerful, all-knowing, perfectly good being is merely the ultimate result of religious one-upsmanship in a "my god can beat up your god" battle for dominance.

See the Bible, for example, which still has remnants of this, such as Pharoah's priest turning a stick into two snakes, but Moses turns his stick into one, which eats both of them, thus demonstrating the god of the Jews is greater than the god of the B14ch3n 3gyp41nz.

...who actually exists, according to the Bible.

Beerina · 5th September 2006, 05:42 AM

Originally Posted by CplFerro

Dear p,

It all comes down to Justice. God's perfect justice is infinitely offended by even an infinitesimal sin, and thus "requires" infinite punishment to assuage. The answer is simply that God loves his own justice more than he does sinners, and so he is willing to do anything whatever to sinners in order to satisfy himself. While this is ongoing, amidst the endless screaming, he tells them that this is "what they really wanted by choosing to reject his love."

His power and love are infinite, but they are ruled by justice.

Cpl Ferro

Chef said it best...

Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"

Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"

Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"

Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."

...don't you agree? Unless you have a better explaination.

Rufo · 5th September 2006, 08:13 AM

The main problem with this entire question is that no one really has the right to decide what is good or evil. So God is all good. What exactly is good? Either humans or some kind of sentient beings decide, in which case there are a few millions of definitions, none totally consistant with another, to pick from. If God decides, the expression can lose its original meaning as we know it, and simply mean 'what God is/does'.

The people who believe in the Christian God usually believe that there is one true definition of 'good', that God made it and that it includes letting evil exist, or even creating it. I don't see what's so strange about that.

elaine · 5th September 2006, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Chef said it best...

Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?"

Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?"

Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?"

Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power."

...don't you agree? Unless you have a better explaination.

I love South Park

Fizzer · 5th September 2006, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by pmckean

Evil is represented by an Angel called Lucifer who fell out of favour with God and was cast out of heaven. He made his own domain, and now battles with God for the souls of humankind by encouraging badness. If you choose the path of evil, you get to go to his place - HELL - where you will suffer for all eternity.

Nowhere does the Bible state that Satan is the ruler of hell.

Quote:

OK, maybe I'm getting this all wrong, because I can't get it to make sense. Here's my problem; if God is all-powerful, why does he continue to suffer the existence of Lucifer? Surely he could just do away with him and end the suffering of all those poor souls who are trapped within his infernal demesne.

According to Revelation, Satan will be destroyed permanently at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Quote:

but isn't it profoundly disturbing that a deity billed as all-merciful, loving and kind could allow you to be condemed for all of time to unimaginable agony?

That concept has probably done more damage to the idea of Christianity than just about anything else. It's not in the Bible either.

3rd September 2006, 03:44 AM	#1
pmckean Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 232	God vs Satan? Right, I'm no expert on religion, but as I understand it one general theme of Christianity is that there are two powerful forces, good and evil. Here's my wonderfully simplistic and (probably) erroneous expression of this belief; Good is represented by an omnipotent, omniscient "father figure" who created EVERYTHING. It's called God. If you choose the path of goodness, then when you die, your soul gets to go to a wonderful place called heaven. Evil is represented by an Angel called Lucifer who fell out of favour with God and was cast out of heaven. He made his own domain, and now battles with God for the souls of humankind by encouraging badness. If you choose the path of evil, you get to go to his place - HELL - where you will suffer for all eternity. OK, maybe I'm getting this all wrong, because I can't get it to make sense. Here's my problem; if God is all-powerful, why does he continue to suffer the existence of Lucifer? Surely he could just do away with him and end the suffering of all those poor souls who are trapped within his infernal demesne. The only reason I can think for the continued existence of Satan is that God ALLOWS Satan to continue running Hell, but isn't it profoundly disturbing that a deity billed as all-merciful, loving and kind could allow you to be condemed for all of time to unimaginable agony? Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH. Some mistake, surely?
pmckean Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 232

3rd September 2006, 06:08 AM	#2
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,280	Originally Posted by pmckean Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH. Some mistake, surely? Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is?
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

3rd September 2006, 08:00 AM	#4
icantlogoff Scholar Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 78	When i was a JW, it was explained as a sovereignty issue. Namely Satan's challenge at the beginning was that man didn't need God (the whole garden of Eden thing and the tree). So the point/challenge that Satan put forward was just that, so since then god removed his protection, and allowed man to take his own course, now as it was explained all the suffering/illness etc, is down to god being proved right that man can not rule himself. Anyway that is how it was explained to me back then. regards Steve
icantlogoff Scholar Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 78

3rd September 2006, 08:13 AM	#5
pmckean Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 232	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is? Ah! I've often wondered if true Christians love their God or are just too afraid to express otherwise. However, if God can see into the hearts and minds of man, he already knows that is feared - so what's the point in pretending otherwise? Are there clearly defines rules for what constitutes a win for the devil or for the angels? I hope it's not all done by commandments - I've broken so many of those, I've lost count, and I continue to break them all the time. In fact, it's less than five minutes since I broke my last commandment, and I'll do a few more before the end of the day.
pmckean Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 232

3rd September 2006, 08:18 AM	#6
pmckean Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 232	Originally Posted by icantlogoff Satan's challenge at the beginning was that man didn't need God (the whole garden of Eden thing and the tree). So the point/challenge that Satan put forward was just that, so since then god removed his protection, and allowed man to take his own course, now as it was explained all the suffering/illness etc, is down to god being proved right that man can not rule himself. So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal?
pmckean Thinker Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 232

3rd September 2006, 06:09 AM	#3
Bikewer Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: St. Louis, Mo. Posts: 9,612	You can't knock these ideas down with simple, staightforward logic. Don't you know that it's sinful to try to know the "Mind Of God"? Why, intellectual Christian apologists have written reams of gobbedygook explaining these things.

3rd September 2006, 08:38 AM	#7
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,289	Since its' all fairytales anyway, let's go for the hard reality. The people who built up this silliness over a rather long time needed something to put a little kick into the "be good" (do what we tell you) thing so they invented Satan/Lucifer/ the boogeyman (well, the boogyman is real - but that's another story) and Hell/Sheol to scare the people who might not just grab for the "be good,heaven" part for goodness sake into grabbing for it out of fear. Doesn't work all that well but.....
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,289

3rd September 2006, 08:39 AM	#8
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,456	Originally Posted by pmckean So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal? As illustrated in microcosm by his hazing of Job. Steven
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

3rd September 2006, 08:54 AM	#9
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,280	Satan is God's roommate. He's a bit of a pill, and doesn't pay the bills on time, but he's fun to have around sometimes, and God can't manage the rent on his own. So he puts up with the dirty socks lying in the living room, and the dishes in the sink, and Satan's constantly using his shampoo. For God's sake, it's the $2.99 Food Lion knockoff of Pert Plus, which is itself hardly the premier of shampoos. Why the hell can't he buy his own? He's practically bald anyway!!!
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

3rd September 2006, 08:58 AM	#10
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	It's not that complicated. God wants us to obey him and love him due to free choice, rather than coercion. As for whether or not God is all-merciful, all-loving, and all-kind, let's leave it at this: that's what God WANTS us to say that he is. I think the logic on this point is internally consistent.
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	__________________ I'm here to discuss ideas, not to get personal. I won't criticize you personally, please don't criticize me personally. I won't direct ad hominems at you, please don't direct ad hominems at me. I won't attack you or put you down, please don't attack me or put me down. Thanks.

3rd September 2006, 09:12 AM	#11
Foster Zygote Dental Floss Tycoon Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Between the pit of man's fears and the summit of his knowledge Posts: 14,456	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Satan is God's roommate. He's a bit of a pill, and doesn't pay the bills on time, but he's fun to have around sometimes, and God can't manage the rent on his own. So he puts up with the dirty socks lying in the living room, and the dishes in the sink, and Satan's constantly using his shampoo. For God's sake, it's the $2.99 Food Lion knockoff of Pert Plus, which is itself hardly the premier of shampoos. Why the hell can't he buy his own? He's practically bald anyway!!! To all: The above is even funnier if you hum or whistle the theme from The Odd Couple while reading it. Steven
	__________________ It looks just like a Telefunken U47... You'll love it.

3rd September 2006, 09:29 AM	#12
CplFerro Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,383	Originally Posted by pmckean Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH. Some mistake, surely? Dear p, It all comes down to Justice. God's perfect justice is infinitely offended by even an infinitesimal sin, and thus "requires" infinite punishment to assuage. The answer is simply that God loves his own justice more than he does sinners, and so he is willing to do anything whatever to sinners in order to satisfy himself. While this is ongoing, amidst the endless screaming, he tells them that this is "what they really wanted by choosing to reject his love." His power and love are infinite, but they are ruled by justice. Cpl Ferro

3rd September 2006, 10:38 AM	#13
SusanB-M1 Incurable Optimist Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Almost in the New Forest, Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,878	God v Satan ...both just words, given to human concepts, so I can't get any further than that!

3rd September 2006, 10:48 AM	#14
elaine Killer Squirrel Killer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 4,168	Originally Posted by Foster Zygote As illustrated in microcosm by his hazing of Job. Steven That's best description of the account I've ever heard.

3rd September 2006, 11:29 AM	#15
icantlogoff Scholar Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 78	Originally Posted by mckean So... God allows all the suffering over some divine spat with his ex-best pal? I know it is totally stupid. This was one of the main reason i started to question everything, the fact that is you look at the whole Satan and God thing, they do seem pals. Almost a way to kick people into line. What is wrong and hence the work of Satan is always defined by peoples own perception... I was told constantly that listen to the Band Marillion was demonic music! and we all know its was Britney Spears that is the one. People see some sort of demonic vision and they run or pray to God , seems to be a self defeating exercise for Satan in my own view, unless he is in league with God. But I don't believe in either of these Bible Characters regards Steve
icantlogoff Scholar Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 78

3rd September 2006, 09:16 PM	#16
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,412	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is? Batman would and has. And hey Batman even looks a little like Satan. Maybe Big G keeps his old homey around to keep him level headed. Now if only his followers had someone like that....
Ausmerican Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3,412	__________________ Everyone must believe in something. I believe I'll go canoeing. Henry David Thoreau

3rd September 2006, 09:28 PM	#17
clarsct Humor Impaired Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Cultural Desert Posts: 4,910	http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2...12056&start=40 At the top of page 2 of this thread, I have outlined the entire problem, of which this is merely a facet. I hope you find it interesting.
	__________________ When Religion becomes State, and breaking the Law becomes Sin, then Dissenters will become Heretics. Oh nonsense. Still not hugging you. -Kiless Forum Tosser and Skirt Chaser

3rd September 2006, 10:16 PM	#18
JayT Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Waterloo, NY, USA Posts: 323	The Bible Says Your Fate Is Predetermined Originally Posted by Dave1001 It's not that complicated. God wants us to obey him and love him due to free choice, rather than coercion. As for whether or not God is all-merciful, all-loving, and all-kind, let's leave it at this: that's what God WANTS us to say that he is. I think the logic on this point is internally consistent. Some authorities on the Bible disagree: Quote: predestination God's pre-arranged intentions for the destiny of human beings. Because of the history of this concept in Christian theology (e.g. by Augustine and Calvin), it is associated with the idea of an inscrutable God who from eternity had decided that some are to be ‘saved’ and others ‘condemned’. A Dictionary of the Bible 1997, originally published by Oxford University Press 1997 Free will according to the Bible is: Believe in me totally with no evidence at all or I will destroy and torture you for all eternity. The choice is yours. In other words, you have free will. Free will does NOT involve threats of doom, death and damnation for lack of blind, unreasoning faith, to force someone by morbid fear and terror into choosing what you want them to do, or else. That's loving, kind and merciful? If so, I'd hate to see God in a bad mood. I must be missing something. Without fear and terror as their foundation, religions would have no power to control people - and they know it too and capitalise on it to the max - right up to this very moment. That is called threats or coercion. Quote: threat // n. A declaration of an intention to punish or hurt. I think the destructive qualities of religion infinitely outweighs its benefits. Unless history is all a lie. God cannot, nor deserves to be trusted. Quote: Ezekiel 14:9 And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet. So why should I trust anything his prophets say after reading that? or Quote: Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which GOD, THAT CANNOT LIE, promised before the world began. (emphasis added). But prophets who are wrong are to be put to death - the bible says so - does that mean even if God made them wrong by lying to them too, and how would anyone know? Quote: Isaiah 6:5 For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Quote: 1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. Is that logic internally consistent? First he's a liar, then he cannot lie. A man saw God with his own eyes and then nobody has ever seen him. But the bible never contradicts. Mere samples of countless more diametric contradictions that the disease of blind, unreasoning belief will deliberately not see but honest intelligence can plainly see. And that's only the tiny tip of a very dirty iceberg. Good grief! Nuff, said.
	__________________ The Creationist Creed: Oh, to be free, so blissfully free, of the ravages of intelligence, there is no greater joy. GATES of HELL - ID required

5th September 2006, 05:38 AM	#19
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey Quote: Either God ISN'T all powerful, or he ISN'T that loving, yet the Christians I talk to portray him clearly as BOTH. Some mistake, surely? Think about it like this: Is anybody going to tell Superman, to his face, what a big dumb jerk he is? Guilty! And an infinitely powerful, all-knowing, perfectly good being is merely the ultimate result of religious one-upsmanship in a "my god can beat up your god" battle for dominance. See the Bible, for example, which still has remnants of this, such as Pharoah's priest turning a stick into two snakes, but Moses turns his stick into one, which eats both of them, thus demonstrating the god of the Jews is greater than the god of the B14ch3n 3gyp41nz. ...who actually exists, according to the Bible.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

5th September 2006, 05:42 AM	#20
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by CplFerro Dear p, It all comes down to Justice. God's perfect justice is infinitely offended by even an infinitesimal sin, and thus "requires" infinite punishment to assuage. The answer is simply that God loves his own justice more than he does sinners, and so he is willing to do anything whatever to sinners in order to satisfy himself. While this is ongoing, amidst the endless screaming, he tells them that this is "what they really wanted by choosing to reject his love." His power and love are infinite, but they are ruled by justice. Cpl Ferro Chef said it best... Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?" Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?" Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?" Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power." ...don't you agree? Unless you have a better explaination.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

5th September 2006, 08:13 AM	#21
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	The main problem with this entire question is that no one really has the right to decide what is good or evil. So God is all good. What exactly is good? Either humans or some kind of sentient beings decide, in which case there are a few millions of definitions, none totally consistant with another, to pick from. If God decides, the expression can lose its original meaning as we know it, and simply mean 'what God is/does'. The people who believe in the Christian God usually believe that there is one true definition of 'good', that God made it and that it includes letting evil exist, or even creating it. I don't see what's so strange about that.
Rufo Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 1,196	__________________ Love is patient, love is kind, says he [Paul] - so is humour too, for it is not offended by that which is ugly and offensive, it seeks out the lost and miserable and shows that they are worth interest - love is not angered, it does not judge - neither does humour - love forgives all - so does humour - love is humble - such is humour too, for humour makes men not consider themselves better than others. - Gustaf Fröding

5th September 2006, 08:18 AM	#22
elaine Killer Squirrel Killer Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Denver Posts: 4,168	Originally Posted by Beerina Chef said it best... Stan : "Why would God let Kenny die, Chef? Why? Kenny's my friend. Why can't God take someone else's friend?" Chef : "Stan, sometimes God takes those closest to us, because it makes him feel better about himself. He is a very vengeful God, Stan. He's all pissed off about something we did thousands of years ago. He just can't get over it, so he doesn't care who he takes. Children, puppies, it don't matter to him, so long as it makes us sad. Do you understand?" Stan : "But then, why does God give us anything to start with?" Chef : "Well, look at it this way: if you want to make a baby cry, first you give it a lollipop. Then you take it away. If you never give it a lollipop to begin with, then you would have nothin' to cry about. That's like God, who gives us life and love and help just so that he can tear it all away and make us cry, so he can drink the sweet milk of our tears. You see, it's our tears, Stan, that give God his great power." ...don't you agree? Unless you have a better explaination. I love South Park

5th September 2006, 03:39 PM	#23
Fizzer Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 175	Originally Posted by pmckean Evil is represented by an Angel called Lucifer who fell out of favour with God and was cast out of heaven. He made his own domain, and now battles with God for the souls of humankind by encouraging badness. If you choose the path of evil, you get to go to his place - HELL - where you will suffer for all eternity. Nowhere does the Bible state that Satan is the ruler of hell. Quote: OK, maybe I'm getting this all wrong, because I can't get it to make sense. Here's my problem; if God is all-powerful, why does he continue to suffer the existence of Lucifer? Surely he could just do away with him and end the suffering of all those poor souls who are trapped within his infernal demesne. According to Revelation, Satan will be destroyed permanently at the end of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Quote: but isn't it profoundly disturbing that a deity billed as all-merciful, loving and kind could allow you to be condemed for all of time to unimaginable agony? That concept has probably done more damage to the idea of Christianity than just about anything else. It's not in the Bible either.
Fizzer Thinker Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 175