Level Of Corruption In The Us Government. A Poll.

Abooga · 26th October 2006, 08:17 AM

I´m open to suggestions to improve this poll.

Enjoy.

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th October 2006, 11:10 AM

Corporate influence <> Corruption

brodski · 26th October 2006, 11:12 AM

Do you mean corruption of politicians, or corruption in the machinery of government?

Abooga · 26th October 2006, 12:13 PM

What do you mean, Central Scrutinizer?

And, brodsky, I mean politicians. They are the ones with the resources to change things, I think. And the greater responsability. I´m not sure why, right now.

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th October 2006, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Abooga

What do you mean, Central Scrutinizer?

You must not be a programmer. "<>" means "Not equal" in several programming languages.

So in your statement "Very corrupt, A complicated net of corporation influences. ", it looks like you are incorrectly equating corporate influence with corruption. They are two unrelated concepts.

Tricky · 26th October 2006, 01:47 PM

We need a frame of reference. Compared to many governments, it is a model of openness. My company has a budget set aside for bribing public officials in some countries. At least here we feel like corruption is bad.

Abooga · 26th October 2006, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

You must not be a programmer. "<>" means "Not equal" in several programming languages.

So in your statement "Very corrupt, A complicated net of corporation influences. ", it looks like you are incorrectly equating corporate influence with corruption. They are two unrelated concepts.

Nope, not a programmer. Most people aren´t.
Yeah, I see what you mean, corruption and corporate influences are two different things. But whoever votes for this option in this poll thinks they are related, don´t you think? That´s the point. And so far it´s the winning option. Gosh! were you being so arsy on purpose?...

Darth Rotor · 26th October 2006, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Abooga

Level Of Corruption In A Poll

Severity of Syphilis.

Oh, wait, you said "poll" not "pole."

Sorry.

DR

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th October 2006, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by Abooga

Nope, not a programmer. Most people aren´t.
Yeah, I see what you mean, corruption and corporate influences are two different things. But whoever votes for this option in this poll thinks they are related, don´t you think? That´s the point. And so far it´s the winning option. Gosh! were you being so arsy on purpose?...

I would suggest that anyone who votes for that option thinking they are related is quite stupid.

Abooga · 26th October 2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Tricky

We need a frame of reference. Compared to many governments, it is a model of openness. My company has a budget set aside for bribing public officials in some countries. At least here we feel like corruption is bad.

Yes, depends who you compare yourself with. However in my opinion corruption is a very dangerous thing. Perhaps I´m more weary of it because I´m spanish and our first republic failed mainly because of that (so it´s told)... and also because of the current installment of "cleptocracy" at different levels of govt. I imagine it´s much worse over here. But I´ve read some worrying reports about the US... and I just can´t help thinking that it´s something that will keep getting worse if left unchecked.

Darth Rotor · 26th October 2006, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Abooga

Yes, depends who you compare yourself with. However in my opinion corruption is a very dangerous thing. Perhaps I´m more weary of it because I´m spanish and our first republic failed mainly because of that (so it´s told)... and also because of the current installment of "cleptocracy" at different levels of govt. I imagine it´s much worse over here. But I´ve read some worrying reports about the US... and I just can´t help thinking that it´s something that will keep getting worse if left unchecked.

So, Enron trial, Tyco's troubles a few years ago, Martha Stewart in Jail, Dow lawsuits . . . explain this "unchecked" to me please.

ETA: Duke Cunningham headed for jail, Abramoff going down, DeLay beat down . . . explain this unchecked to me, please.

DR

Abooga · 26th October 2006, 02:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I would suggest that anyone who votes for that option thinking they are related is quite stupid.

so the possibility that the influences of large corporations can supplant "the will of the people" doesn´t worry you. who is being stupid? I have a suggestion too...

Abooga · 26th October 2006, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

So, Enron trial, Tyco's troubles a few years ago, Martha Stewart in Jail, Dow lawsuits . . . explain this "unchecked" to me please.

ETA: Duke Cunningham headed for jail, Abramoff going down, DeLay beat down . . . explain this unchecked to me, please.

DR

Where did I say those cases went unchecked? I think the fact that those cases are being brought to light is a great thing. But, is it enough? Is is just the moonbat liberal media that gives the impression that Enron should have implicatd Bush too?

I´ll let the poll show what people think instead of having to write down tired old arguments. I´m going to bed.

Luke T. · 26th October 2006, 02:56 PM

Quote:

MANY people in Europe are apt to believe without saying it, or to say without believing it, that one of the great advantages of universal suffrage is that it entrusts the direction of affairs to men who are worthy of the public confidence. They admit that the people are unable to govern of themselves, but they aver that the people always wish the welfare of the state and instinctively designate those who are animated by the same good will and who are the most fit to wield the supreme authority. I confess that the observations I made in America by no means coincide with these opinions. On my arrival in the United States I was surprised to find so much distinguished talent among the citizens and so little among the heads of the government. It is a constant fact that at the present day the ablest men in the United States are rarely placed at the head of affairs; and it must be acknowledged that such has been the result in proportion as democracy has exceeded all its former limits.

Quote:

While the natural instincts of democracy induce the people to reject distinguished citizens as their rulers, an instinct not less strong induces able men to retire from the political arena, in which it is so difficult to retain their independence, or to advance without becoming servile. This opinion has been candidly expressed by Chancellor Kent, who says, in speaking with high praise of that part of the Constitution which empowers the executive to nominate the judges: "It is indeed probable that the men who are best fitted to discharge the duties of this high office would have too much reserve in their manners, and too much austerity in their principles, for them to be returned by the majority at an election where universal suffrage is adopted."1 Such were the opinions which were printed without contradiction in America in the year 1830!

Alexis de Tocqueville, 1832.

The Central Scrutinizer · 26th October 2006, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Abooga

so the possibility that the influences of large corporations can supplant "the will of the people" doesn´t worry you.

No, it doesn't.

Who are corporations made up of? I'll give you a hint - not only does it rhyme with "people", but it is spelled exactly the same.

Ladewig · 26th October 2006, 03:23 PM

I'd like some more information before reaching a definite conclusion. Information such as all the notes from Cheney's Energy Task Force meeting.

Ideally, I'd like to gather the information Ken Starr style. I suspect that if I had one year, unlimited subpeonea power, the ability to put GWB and Mr. Cheney under oath as often as I'd like, and 15+ million dollars, I'd find some pretty convincing evidence of crimes that are at least as serious as lying under oath about where one has placed one's dingaling.

----------

Does paying people in the news industry to write favorable stories count as corruption?

TragicMonkey · 26th October 2006, 05:19 PM

I would like it if military and DoD employees didn't work to bring lucrative contracts to corporations like Boeing and Lockheed and then retire...only to wind up as vice-presidents of those very corporations.

Darth Rotor · 27th October 2006, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I would like it if military and DoD employees didn't work to bring lucrative contracts to corporations like Boeing and Lockheed and then retire...only to wind up as vice-presidents of those very corporations.

How much time have you spent in DoD acquisition?

DR

WildCat · 27th October 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

You must not be a programmer. "<>" means "Not equal" in several programming languages.

≠ works for me.

Chaos · 27th October 2006, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

So, Enron trial, Tyco's troubles a few years ago, Martha Stewart in Jail, Dow lawsuits . . . explain this "unchecked" to me please.

ETA: Duke Cunningham headed for jail, Abramoff going down, DeLay beat down . . . explain this unchecked to me, please.

DR

Are you really naive enough to believe that this is more than the proverbial tip of the iceberg?

brodski · 27th October 2006, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by WildCat

≠ works for me.

No, that's the old symbol for British Rail.

The Central Scrutinizer · 27th October 2006, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by WildCat

≠ works for me.

Or !=

Darth Rotor · 27th October 2006, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Chaos

Are you really naive enough to believe that this is more than the proverbial tip of the iceberg?

No.

Those weren't the only cases under investigation, nor will they be. Just a few off the top of my head/memory.

The muck rakers and federal investigators have plenty of work to do for, what, the next quarter century or so? And that's just from last year!

DR

Chaos · 28th October 2006, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

No.

Those weren't the only cases under investigation, nor will they be. Just a few off the top of my head/memory.

The muck rakers and federal investigators have plenty of work to do for, what, the next quarter century or so? And that's just from last year!

DR

What do you think is the approximate percentage of corruption cases that are investigated, go to court, and see even remotely adequate punishments handed out?

1 percent?
10 percent?
100 percent?

Mephisto · 28th October 2006, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I'd like some more information before reaching a definite conclusion. Information such as all the notes from Cheney's Energy Task Force meeting.

Ideally, I'd like to gather the information Ken Starr style. I suspect that if I had one year, unlimited subpeonea power, the ability to put GWB and Mr. Cheney under oath as often as I'd like, and 15+ million dollars, I'd find some pretty convincing evidence of crimes that are at least as serious as lying under oath about where one has placed one's dingaling.

----------

Does paying people in the news industry to write favorable stories count as corruption?

Excellent points! I'd like to add that hypocrisy could have worked its way into the poll somewhere as well. Don't forget, this was the adminstration that promised to bring pride and integrity back to the White House.

Bododio · 28th October 2006, 09:09 AM

I didn't see "incompetence" included in any of the choices. I've recently become familiar with <>

RandFan · 28th October 2006, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

Or !=

Or ~

Humans and their symbology. One is never enough.

Dave1001 · 28th October 2006, 10:30 AM

I'm not sure if corruption is the best word for it, but I think the main problem isn't corporate corruption as much as pandering to people with policy preferences that aren't in anyone's interest. Like policy preferences to ban fetal stem cell research, etc. That's not corporate corruption, but it's a major problem.

brooklyn44 · 28th October 2006, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

No, it doesn't.

Who are corporations made up of? I'll give you a hint - not only does it rhyme with "people", but it is spelled exactly the same.

Corporations behave as an entity. Individual people in a corporation (those who work there) don't make policy. Board members make policy that affect the bottom line...which does not necessarily have a positive impact on those employees but does have a positive affect on stockholders.
So "people" don't count, the bottom line counts. And what's good for Halliburton or for clothing manufacturers in the Marianas is not good for the "people."

Kopji · 29th October 2006, 02:45 PM

IMHO a company is more like an organism than anything else, and reacts to pressures that threaten or enhance its performance.

This does not need to be an evil process. A company that is owned by its own employees and acted as if they were all stakeholders in its success could be both profitable and socially responsible. There are many companies like this. Part of the reason they succeed is that people like to work for them for more than just a paycheck.

Publicly traded companies are owned by you and me. We invest in them in all kinds of open and hidden ways. Bad companies succeed because we don't care enough about how we make our money. To face the problem of exploitation of workers and companies who profit by deceit is mostly an exercise in looking in the mirror of ourselves and where we invest.

The government does not need to be corrupt to be bad, it can be honestly and 'well meaningly' inept.

The more that government regulates corporate activity the more incentive it gives corporations to influence government. Maybe there is a balance we must struggle to find.

davefoc · 30th October 2006, 01:54 AM

I wasn't completely happy with the notion put forth in the poll question that all corruption stemmed from the corporate world or that all corporate influence was equal to corruption but I was OK enough with the question to vote for the vote for "very corrupt".

I think the US is experiencing a kind of corruption that is somewhat worse now than it has been in the past.

One effect of corruption is of course that the entity's putting forth the money get some form of government benefit. But I see something else going on. Bushco seems to be using its control of campaign money, government contracts and even lobbying jobs to keep legislators in check. There seems to be a kind of quid pro quo that has set into the federal government. The legislators get most of what they want with regard to their pork projects via ear marks that Bush never vetoes. In return the legislators give Bushco the legislation it wants (even when it is fiscally irresponible and blatantly corrupt like the medicare drug plan) and they overllook most of their oversight responsibilities.

I thought something that Foley said was telling. He had not wanted to run for another term this year. Instead he had wanted to become a high paid lobbyist. He claims that Rove had told him that he would be blackballed from getting a premo lobbyist job if he didn't run for at least one more term because they didn't want to take a chance on losing his seat with a new candidate. The idea that the executive branch could have this kind of power over a legislator and that it would be used is clearly an erosion of the idea of an independent congress providing a check on the executive branch.

Everything´s FINEEEEEE....	4	6.56%
Just enough corruption to grease the government´s gears	4	6.56%
Corrupt but will sort itself out alone.	5	8.20%
Corrupt. People should know about it and "do something".	11	18.03%
Very corrupt, A complicated net of corporation influences. Need to implement new measures of control to keep an eye on the ones in power.	30	49.18%
Rotting. Too much corruption to be able to sort it out. Will have to dump the system and start again from scratch.	7	11.48%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

26th October 2006, 08:17 AM	#1
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Level Of Corruption In The Us Government. A Poll. I´m open to suggestions to improve this poll. Enjoy.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Last edited by Abooga; 26th October 2006 at 08:24 AM.

26th October 2006, 11:10 AM	#2
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Corporate influence <> Corruption
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th October 2006, 11:12 AM	#3
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,074	Do you mean corruption of politicians, or corruption in the machinery of government?
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,074

26th October 2006, 12:13 PM	#4
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	What do you mean, Central Scrutinizer? And, brodsky, I mean politicians. They are the ones with the resources to change things, I think. And the greater responsability. I´m not sure why, right now.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th October 2006, 01:32 PM	#5
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by Abooga What do you mean, Central Scrutinizer? You must not be a programmer. "<>" means "Not equal" in several programming languages. So in your statement "*Very corrupt, A complicated net of corporation influences*. ", it looks like you are incorrectly equating corporate influence with corruption. They are two unrelated concepts.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th October 2006, 01:47 PM	#6
Tricky Briefly immortal Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: The Group W bench Posts: 42,359	We need a frame of reference. Compared to many governments, it is a model of openness. My company has a budget set aside for bribing public officials in some countries. At least here we feel like corruption is bad.

26th October 2006, 01:55 PM	#7
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer You must not be a programmer. "<>" means "Not equal" in several programming languages. So in your statement "*Very corrupt, A complicated net of corporation influences*. ", it looks like you are incorrectly equating corporate influence with corruption. They are two unrelated concepts. Nope, not a programmer. Most people aren´t. Yeah, I see what you mean, corruption and corporate influences are two different things. But whoever votes for this option in this poll thinks they are related, don´t you think? That´s the point. And so far it´s the winning option. Gosh! were you being so arsy on purpose?...
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Last edited by Abooga; 26th October 2006 at 01:58 PM.

26th October 2006, 01:56 PM	#8
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Abooga Level Of Corruption In A Poll Severity of Syphilis. Oh, wait, you said "poll" not "pole." Sorry. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

26th October 2006, 02:05 PM	#9
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by Abooga Nope, not a programmer. Most people aren´t. Yeah, I see what you mean, corruption and corporate influences are two different things. But whoever votes for this option in this poll thinks they are related, don´t you think? That´s the point. And so far it´s the winning option. Gosh! were you being so arsy on purpose?... I would suggest that anyone who votes for that option thinking they are related is quite stupid.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th October 2006, 02:12 PM	#10
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Tricky We need a frame of reference. Compared to many governments, it is a model of openness. My company has a budget set aside for bribing public officials in some countries. At least here we feel like corruption is bad. Yes, depends who you compare yourself with. However in my opinion corruption is a very dangerous thing. Perhaps I´m more weary of it because I´m spanish and our first republic failed mainly because of that (so it´s told)... and also because of the current installment of "cleptocracy" at different levels of govt. I imagine it´s much worse over here. But I´ve read some worrying reports about the US... and I just can´t help thinking that it´s something that will keep getting worse if left unchecked.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th October 2006, 02:18 PM	#11
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Abooga Yes, depends who you compare yourself with. However in my opinion corruption is a very dangerous thing. Perhaps I´m more weary of it because I´m spanish and our first republic failed mainly because of that (so it´s told)... and also because of the current installment of "cleptocracy" at different levels of govt. I imagine it´s much worse over here. But I´ve read some worrying reports about the US... and I just can´t help thinking that it´s something that will keep getting worse if left unchecked. So, Enron trial, Tyco's troubles a few years ago, Martha Stewart in Jail, Dow lawsuits . . . explain this "unchecked" to me please. ETA: Duke Cunningham headed for jail, Abramoff going down, DeLay beat down . . . explain this unchecked to me, please. DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

26th October 2006, 02:28 PM	#12
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer I would suggest that anyone who votes for that option thinking they are related is quite stupid. so the possibility that the influences of large corporations can supplant "the will of the people" doesn´t worry you. who is being stupid? I have a suggestion too...
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th October 2006, 02:39 PM	#13
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor So, Enron trial, Tyco's troubles a few years ago, Martha Stewart in Jail, Dow lawsuits . . . explain this "unchecked" to me please. ETA: Duke Cunningham headed for jail, Abramoff going down, DeLay beat down . . . explain this unchecked to me, please. DR Where did I say those cases went unchecked? I think the fact that those cases are being brought to light is a great thing. But, is it enough? Is is just the moonbat liberal media that gives the impression that Enron should have implicatd Bush too? I´ll let the poll show what people think instead of having to write down tired old arguments. I´m going to bed.
Abooga Critical Thinker Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 341

26th October 2006, 02:56 PM	#14
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Quote: MANY people in Europe are apt to believe without saying it, or to say without believing it, that one of the great advantages of universal suffrage is that it entrusts the direction of affairs to men who are worthy of the public confidence. They admit that the people are unable to govern of themselves, but they aver that the people always wish the welfare of the state and instinctively designate those who are animated by the same good will and who are the most fit to wield the supreme authority. I confess that the observations I made in America by no means coincide with these opinions. On my arrival in the United States I was surprised to find so much distinguished talent among the citizens and so little among the heads of the government. It is a constant fact that at the present day the ablest men in the United States are rarely placed at the head of affairs; and it must be acknowledged that such has been the result in proportion as democracy has exceeded all its former limits. Quote: While the natural instincts of democracy induce the people to reject distinguished citizens as their rulers, an instinct not less strong induces able men to retire from the political arena, in which it is so difficult to retain their independence, or to advance without becoming servile. This opinion has been candidly expressed by Chancellor Kent, who says, in speaking with high praise of that part of the Constitution which empowers the executive to nominate the judges: "It is indeed probable that the men who are best fitted to discharge the duties of this high office would have too much reserve in their manners, and too much austerity in their principles, for them to be returned by the majority at an election where universal suffrage is adopted."1 Such were the opinions which were printed without contradiction in America in the year 1830! Alexis de Tocqueville, 1832.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

26th October 2006, 02:58 PM	#15
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by Abooga so the possibility that the influences of large corporations can supplant "the will of the people" doesn´t worry you. No, it doesn't. Who are corporations made up of? I'll give you a hint - not only does it rhyme with "people", but it is spelled exactly the same.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

26th October 2006, 03:23 PM	#16
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,797	I'd like some more information before reaching a definite conclusion. Information such as all the notes from Cheney's Energy Task Force meeting. Ideally, I'd like to gather the information Ken Starr style. I suspect that if I had one year, unlimited subpeonea power, the ability to put GWB and Mr. Cheney under oath as often as I'd like, and 15+ million dollars, I'd find some pretty convincing evidence of crimes that are at least as serious as lying under oath about where one has placed one's dingaling. ---------- Does paying people in the news industry to write favorable stories count as corruption?
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

26th October 2006, 05:19 PM	#17
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Pither Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,068	I would like it if military and DoD employees didn't work to bring lucrative contracts to corporations like Boeing and Lockheed and then retire...only to wind up as vice-presidents of those very corporations.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

27th October 2006, 10:16 AM	#18
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I would like it if military and DoD employees didn't work to bring lucrative contracts to corporations like Boeing and Lockheed and then retire...only to wind up as vice-presidents of those very corporations. How much time have you spent in DoD acquisition? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

27th October 2006, 10:38 AM	#19
WildCat NWO Master Conspirator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Albany Park, Chicago Posts: 48,985	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer You must not be a programmer. "<>" means "Not equal" in several programming languages. ≠ works for me.

27th October 2006, 10:52 AM	#20
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor So, Enron trial, Tyco's troubles a few years ago, Martha Stewart in Jail, Dow lawsuits . . . explain this "unchecked" to me please. ETA: Duke Cunningham headed for jail, Abramoff going down, DeLay beat down . . . explain this unchecked to me, please. DR Are you really naive enough to believe that this is more than the proverbial tip of the iceberg?
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

27th October 2006, 10:58 AM	#21
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,074	Originally Posted by WildCat ≠ works for me. No, that's the old symbol for British Rail.
brodski Tea-Time toad Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 15,074

27th October 2006, 01:20 PM	#22
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Pither Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,266	Originally Posted by WildCat ≠ works for me. Or !=
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

27th October 2006, 03:01 PM	#23
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,255	Originally Posted by Chaos Are you really naive enough to believe that this is more than the proverbial tip of the iceberg? No. Those weren't the only cases under investigation, nor will they be. Just a few off the top of my head/memory. The muck rakers and federal investigators have plenty of work to do for, what, the next quarter century or so? And that's just from last year! DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

28th October 2006, 02:42 AM	#24
Chaos TAM Chocolate Dispenser Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Heart of Old Europe Posts: 9,778	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor No. Those weren't the only cases under investigation, nor will they be. Just a few off the top of my head/memory. The muck rakers and federal investigators have plenty of work to do for, what, the next quarter century or so? And that's just from last year! DR What do you think is the approximate percentage of corruption cases that are investigated, go to court, and see even remotely adequate punishments handed out? 1 percent? 10 percent? 100 percent?
	__________________ Grand Master, Knights of the Question Mark Illusion: too good to be true - Reality: too true to be good Authors build castles in the sky, readers live in them and publishers collect the rent. - Maxim Gorki Folks enjoy a witch-hunt as long as they are on the blunt end of the pitchfork. - Suezoled You can't use logic to talk a man out of a position that he didn't use logic to get himself into - passed down by Nyarlathotep Kids these days are better than their parents since they constitute the newest edition, the beta version of our societies - Cleopatra YouÂ´ll have to accept the fact that some people are just plain nuts. - Paul C. Anagnostopolous

28th October 2006, 06:20 AM	#25
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by Ladewig I'd like some more information before reaching a definite conclusion. Information such as all the notes from Cheney's Energy Task Force meeting. Ideally, I'd like to gather the information Ken Starr style. I suspect that if I had one year, unlimited subpeonea power, the ability to put GWB and Mr. Cheney under oath as often as I'd like, and 15+ million dollars, I'd find some pretty convincing evidence of crimes that are at least as serious as lying under oath about where one has placed one's dingaling. ---------- Does paying people in the news industry to write favorable stories count as corruption? Excellent points! I'd like to add that hypocrisy could have worked its way into the poll somewhere as well. Don't forget, this was the adminstration that promised to bring pride and integrity back to the White House.
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

28th October 2006, 09:09 AM	#26
Bododio Critical Thinker Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Left Coast Posts: 308	I didn't see "incompetence" included in any of the choices. I've recently become familiar with <>

28th October 2006, 10:03 AM	#27
RandFan Mormon Atheist Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 53,153	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer Or != Or ~ Humans and their symbology. One is never enough.
	__________________ Ego, ain't it a bitch? It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion. --Adam Smith

28th October 2006, 10:30 AM	#28
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	I'm not sure if corruption is the best word for it, but I think the main problem isn't corporate corruption as much as pandering to people with policy preferences that aren't in anyone's interest. Like policy preferences to ban fetal stem cell research, etc. That's not corporate corruption, but it's a major problem.
Dave1001 Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 3,717	__________________ I'm here to discuss ideas, not to get personal. I won't criticize you personally, please don't criticize me personally. I won't direct ad hominems at you, please don't direct ad hominems at me. I won't attack you or put you down, please don't attack me or put me down. Thanks.

28th October 2006, 11:22 AM	#29
brooklyn44 Thinker Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lawn Guyland, Nu Yawk Posts: 240	huh? Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer No, it doesn't. Who are corporations made up of? I'll give you a hint - not only does it rhyme with "people", but it is spelled exactly the same. Corporations behave as an entity. Individual people in a corporation (those who work there) don't make policy. Board members make policy that affect the bottom line...which does not necessarily have a positive impact on those employees but does have a positive affect on stockholders. So "people" don't count, the bottom line counts. And what's good for Halliburton or for clothing manufacturers in the Marianas is not good for the "people."

29th October 2006, 02:45 PM	#30
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,697	IMHO a company is more like an organism than anything else, and reacts to pressures that threaten or enhance its performance. This does not need to be an evil process. A company that is owned by its own employees and acted as if they were all stakeholders in its success could be both profitable and socially responsible. There are many companies like this. Part of the reason they succeed is that people like to work for them for more than just a paycheck. Publicly traded companies are owned by you and me. We invest in them in all kinds of open and hidden ways. Bad companies succeed because we don't care enough about how we make our money. To face the problem of exploitation of workers and companies who profit by deceit is mostly an exercise in looking in the mirror of ourselves and where we invest. The government does not need to be corrupt to be bad, it can be honestly and 'well meaningly' inept. The more that government regulates corporate activity the more incentive it gives corporations to influence government. Maybe there is a balance we must struggle to find.

30th October 2006, 01:54 AM	#31
davefoc Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: orange country, california Posts: 7,246	I wasn't completely happy with the notion put forth in the poll question that all corruption stemmed from the corporate world or that all corporate influence was equal to corruption but I was OK enough with the question to vote for the vote for "very corrupt". I think the US is experiencing a kind of corruption that is somewhat worse now than it has been in the past. One effect of corruption is of course that the entity's putting forth the money get some form of government benefit. But I see something else going on. Bushco seems to be using its control of campaign money, government contracts and even lobbying jobs to keep legislators in check. There seems to be a kind of quid pro quo that has set into the federal government. The legislators get most of what they want with regard to their pork projects via ear marks that Bush never vetoes. In return the legislators give Bushco the legislation it wants (even when it is fiscally irresponible and blatantly corrupt like the medicare drug plan) and they overllook most of their oversight responsibilities. I thought something that Foley said was telling. He had not wanted to run for another term this year. Instead he had wanted to become a high paid lobbyist. He claims that Rove had told him that he would be blackballed from getting a premo lobbyist job if he didn't run for at least one more term because they didn't want to take a chance on losing his seat with a new candidate. The idea that the executive branch could have this kind of power over a legislator and that it would be used is clearly an erosion of the idea of an independent congress providing a check on the executive branch.