Education level of American soldiers?

[Dustin Kesselberg]

What exactly is the Education level of American soldiers? I saw on Fox news that 99% of American soldiers have a High school education and something like 88% of Americans in the general population do. Though I can't be sure of this stat simply because it was on Fox News.

Is saying "American soldiers are generally uneducated" a fair assessment or not?

Is comparing American soldiers to the General population really a good way to determine their level of education if they were actually included into the population?

Wouldn't it be better to include them into the population and then determine where they would stand on average when it comes to Education in America?

Don't most U.S. soldiers have no college education? Much lower than the average public?

Someone post some statistics.

As most of us know...
John Kerry said that "The uneducated get stuck in Iraq" clearly referring to George Bush being uneducated about Iraq (not knowing the difference between Shiah and Sunni at the start) and then getting "stuck" in Iraq as a result. Republicans have lambasted him accusing him of insulting the intelligence of American troops. Which wouldn't even be such a bad thing in itself even if it's not true.

[Katana]

What were you able to find when you looked?

[Garrette]

High School Diploma or GED is required for enlisted.

Bachelor's Degree (4 year college degree, for the Europeans unfamiliar with US terminology) is required to become an officer, though there are sometimes temporary waivers granted in the Reserves allowing up to 2 years (if memory serves) for the degree to be completed.

There are no other civil education requirements, though Graduate (Masters) Degrees are becoming a sort of informal requirement for advancement to the higher officer ranks.

I have no official data on education levels, but I can tell you that it is not uncommon to find very highly educated soldiers, both officer and enlisted. Of course, this will vary depending on branch (meaning specialty).

I started in Military Intelligence. Masters Degrees were common at even the NCO level and pretty much the norm for Warrant Officers and mid level officers. I knew a few PhDs.

It's even more common in Civil Affairs, which is my current branch. I am among the least educated officers in my unit now.

In addition, it is possible for soldiers, especially officers, to have Graduate Degrees funded by the military, sometimes at civil institutions and sometimes at programs within the military. The Naval Post Graduate Intelligence Program offers a Masters Degree and is well respected. There are others, too.

The War Colleges are equivalent at least to Masters Degrees even if they are not recognized as such.

And the fields of study are not always what you would expect. Tommy Franks taught poetry at the college level, iirc.

[egslim]

Quote:

Is comparing American soldiers to the General population really a good way to determine their level of education if they were actually included into the population?

No, because the 'general population' includes many more age groups. I expect the elderly to be less well educated than younger generations. Especially elder women.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Garrette

High School Diploma or GED is required for enlisted.

Bachelor's Degree (4 year college degree, for the Europeans unfamiliar with US terminology) is required to become an officer, though there are sometimes temporary waivers granted in the Reserves allowing up to 2 years (if memory serves) for the degree to be completed.

There are no other civil education requirements, though Graduate (Masters) Degrees are becoming a sort of informal requirement for advancement to the higher officer ranks.

I have no official data on education levels, but I can tell you that it is not uncommon to find very highly educated soldiers, both officer and enlisted. Of course, this will vary depending on branch (meaning specialty).

I started in Military Intelligence. Masters Degrees were common at even the NCO level and pretty much the norm for Warrant Officers and mid level officers. I knew a few PhDs.

It's even more common in Civil Affairs, which is my current branch. I am among the least educated officers in my unit now.

In addition, it is possible for soldiers, especially officers, to have Graduate Degrees funded by the military, sometimes at civil institutions and sometimes at programs within the military. The Naval Post Graduate Intelligence Program offers a Masters Degree and is well respected. There are others, too.

The War Colleges are equivalent at least to Masters Degrees even if they are not recognized as such.

And the fields of study are not always what you would expect. Tommy Franks taught poetry at the college level, iirc.

Originally Posted by Dustin

Don't most U.S. soldiers have no college education? Much lower than the average public?

Most have some, the amount is variable. Not a few sailors who worked for me went to college, were too undisciplined to keep with it, joined the Navy, got some maturity, and were resuming their college education while on duty. Quite a few got out after one term and kept up the momentum to complete their degrees.

Basically, the average first tour enlisted guy has more college than you do, Mr-Dustin-who-doesn't-see-a-need-for-college, and most are saving to afford college via GI Bill and stashing away some of their pay check each month.

To add to Garrette's comments: The current Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine tends to start earning some college credit before the first tour is over. The explosion in the past 5 years of online courses has helped that. Chain of command encouragement of this is still a stress point in the officer corps.

I earned a Masters degree doing night school during my first shore tour, and a second Masters at Staff College. I know, off the top of my head, 8 officers who were within three years of my year group where were PhD's:
One was an Army Chemical officer (PhD, Physics, optics)
One an Army AD Officer, one MI, and one an Ordy (all had PhD's, History)
One Air Force (PhD, Meterology)
One Navy Submariner (PhD, International Security Affairs/Poly Sci, and Masters in Marine Engineering. )
One Marine (PhD, Elec Engineering)

Those are just a few of the guys I knew and served with.

Among the NCO's I met, most had bachelors, many had Masters, in something.

Fox's 99% diploma or GED is a good statistic to start from.

I met a lot of AF junior enlisted and junior NCO who had 2 year degrees already, not quite as many Navy junior enlisted/NCOs.

Kerry's joke, if aimed at Bush, was a horrid example of "some people just can't tell a joke." If it is to be taken at face value, he's being consistent with accusing the soldiers of routinely terrorizing Iraqis. If the alleged script he used was the set up, he needs a new joke writer.

John Kerry has been in the political business long enough to know that you had better say what you mean clearly, or you'll take heat. You may still take heat, even if what you say is clear.

Kerry gets an "F" for being able to function in his chosen profession, politician, by screwing that up during election season.

Freudian slip? Perhaps.
Garden variety f___ up? Perhaps.
Attention whoring? Yes, comes with the badge.
Catching hell from fellow Democrats for pissing in the party punchbow? Betting the Over on that.

DR

[senorpogo]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

To add to your comments: The current Soldier, Sailor, AIrman or Marine tends to start earning some college credit before the first tour is over. The explosion in the past 5 years of online courses has helped that. Chain of command encouragement of this is still a stress point among the officer corps.

You answered my question before I could even ask it.

[Ladewig]

Originally Posted by Dustin

As most of us know...
John Kerry said that "The uneducated get stuck in Iraq" clearly referring to George Bush being uneducated about Iraq (not knowing the difference between Shiah and Sunni at the start) and then getting "stuck" in Iraq as a result. Republicans have lambasted him accusing him of insulting the intelligence of American troops. Which wouldn't even be such a bad thing in itself even if it's not true.

Wow. I have heard the quote four or five times in its entirety and I had no idea that that is what he meant. I really thought Kerry was being a bit of an ahole.

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Kerry gets an "F" for being able to function in his chosen profession, politician, by screwing that up during election season.

What grade did GW Bush get in 2004?

[Cello Man]

I know this doesn't reflect on all members of the armed services, but...

I had a roommate in college who had to ask me if we fought Germany in World War II. He's a Marine.

Imagine...knowing so little about your country's history, to say nothing of the history of your chosen profession. You shouldn't be able to make it out of the third grade not knowing something like that. Then again, this guy was also a product of the Louisiana public school system.

When he asked me that, I was so angry I just yelled at him for five minutes. I didn't even care at that point that he could've killed me with his bare hands.

[Vorticity]

Originally Posted by Dustin

What exactly is the Education level of American soldiers? I saw on Fox news that 99% of American soldiers have a High school education and something like 88% of Americans in the general population do.

I wonder if that 88% included all Americans, or just those over 18?
...
After googling, it appears to be a plausible figure.
From http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/census...highschool.htm,

Quote:

An all-time high 85 percent of U.S. adults age 25 and over had completed at least high school in 2003, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. Also in 2003, 27 percent of adults age 25 and over had a college degree, another record.

(Article from 2004)

So 88% seems to be the right ballpark.

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Cello Man

Then again, this guy was also a product of the Louisiana public school system.

Defense rests.

Did you also point him to a book on WW II? A website? The PC game Axis and Allies?

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

What grade did GW Bush get in 2004?

He must have gotten an A, since he won a presidential election despite being one of the poorest public speakers to ever grace the oval office.

ETA: Ladewig, if your question was "what was GWB's public speaking grade for the 2004 election" I think he gets a C- from me. Met the standard, didn't unduly damage his own, or his party's, position, rarely said anything obviously not written by handlers, and stumbled over much of that.

Kerry at least pronounces most words correctly, and with modest to minimum stammering. Public speaking requires good delivery, timing, style, and some eloquence. Neither W nor JK are particularly good at it.

DR

[Jocko]

Originally Posted by Ladewig

What grade did GW Bush get in 2004?

At least an F+, apparently. If Kerry's the poster boy for higher education, I want my money back.

[Cylinder]

It's probably worth adding that when a four-year enlistment is up, the service member has attained a huge amount of training time - both in the classroom and in the field.

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

In my personal experience, I know many Soldiers, officer and enlisted, with 4-year degrees and higher. Most O-5s and above that I know have at least a Masters degree. Several of my enlisted Soldiers have 4-year degrees. I even had an E-4 with a PhD. The field I work in requires pretty high test scores, so we probably attract more of the enlisted Soldiers with degrees, but in short, I think there are plenty of Soldiers with formal education to go around.

For actual statistics, the Army G-1's annual profile is the place to go (these statistics are just Army, not the entire military, but the links for the other services are at the bottom). For 2005, here was the breakdown for education for Active Duty Army Soldiers:

Officers: <.1% High School Diploma, 1.3% Some College/AA, 58.4% BA/BS, 40.3% MA/PhD, <.1% Other/Unknown

Warrant: <.1% GED, 8.4% High School Diploma, 61.3% Some College/AA, 24.9% BA/BS, 5.2% MA/PhD, .1% Other/Unknown

Enlisted: 6.9% GED, 76% High School Diploma, 7.2% Some College/AA, 4.7% BA/BS, .6% Masters/PhD, 4.6% Other/Unknown

[Giz]

Originally Posted by Cello Man

I know this doesn't reflect on all members of the armed services, but...

I had a roommate in college who had to ask me if we fought Germany in World War II. He's a Marine.

Well I guess the marines fought out in the pacific so if he was relying on regimental histories...

I remember, while at university, watching a documentary on WW2 - the Eastern Front. After 30 minutes my flatmate turns to me and asks (seriously, honest to god) "so Germany and Russia weren't allies then?" (The Germans on screen were busy demolishing Stalingrad at that point). I didn't know whether to laugh or throw things.

Mind you, within the last year it transpired that another friend (Physics degree-1st class) educated professional type, - had never heard of Auschwitz(!!?). He had heard somewhere that Hitler didn't like the Jews... but millions killed... nah, never heard it.

The shortcomings of the UK educational system never cease to amaze me (hell, I'm a science graduate and I never even heard of evolution in a classroom).

[ARubberChickenWithAPulley]

Quote:

The shortcomings of the UK educational system never cease to amaze me (hell, I'm a science graduate and I never even heard of evolution in a classroom).

The shortcomings of most education systems never cease to amaze me -- even some of the ones we consider to be "good" systems. Before I came to South Korea, I let several of my friends in Asia know that I was going to be stationed in Korea with the U.S. Army, and may be able to visit them soon. The following question was asked to me by five different people: Are you going to be in North Korea or South Korea?

All five of them are college graduates, and 2 have Masters degrees. Three were Japanese, one was Thai, and one was Malaysian. They're all smart people. But that question just floored me. I was shocked when the first person asked me that question.

On the bright side, though, none of my South Korean friends asked me that. So I guess there is some hope

[steverino]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Most have some, the amount is variable. Not a few sailors who worked for me went to college, were too undisciplined to keep with it, joined the Navy, got some maturity, and were resuming their college education while on duty. Quite a few got out after one term and kept up the momentum to complete their degrees.

Basically, the average first tour enlisted guy has more college than you do, Mr-Dustin-who-doesn't-see-a-need-for-college, and most are saving to afford college via GI Bill and stashing away some of their pay check each month.

To add to Garrette's comments: The current Soldier, Sailor, Airman or Marine tends to start earning some college credit before the first tour is over. The explosion in the past 5 years of online courses has helped that. Chain of command encouragement of this is still a stress point in the officer corps.

I earned a Masters degree doing night school during my first shore tour, and a second Masters at Staff College. I know, off the top of my head, 8 officers who were within three years of my year group where were PhD's:
One was an Army Chemical officer (PhD, Physics, optics)
One an Army AD Officer, one MI, and one an Ordy (all had PhD's, History)
One Air Force (PhD, Meterology)
One Navy Submariner (PhD, International Security Affairs/Poly Sci, and Masters in Marine Engineering. )
One Marine (PhD, Elec Engineering)

Those are just a few of the guys I knew and served with.

Among the NCO's I met, most had bachelors, many had Masters, in something.

Fox's 99% diploma or GED is a good statistic to start from.

I met a lot of AF junior enlisted and junior NCO who had 2 year degrees already, not quite as many Navy junior enlisted/NCOs.

Kerry's joke, if aimed at Bush, was a horrid example of "some people just can't tell a joke." If it is to be taken at face value, he's being consistent with accusing the soldiers of routinely terrorizing Iraqis. If the alleged script he used was the set up, he needs a new joke writer.

John Kerry has been in the political business long enough to know that you had better say what you mean clearly, or you'll take heat. You may still take heat, even if what you say is clear.

Kerry gets an "F" for being able to function in his chosen profession, politician, by screwing that up during election season.

Freudian slip? Perhaps.
Garden variety f___ up? Perhaps.
Attention whoring? Yes, comes with the badge.
Catching hell from fellow Democrats for pissing in the party punchbow? Betting the Over on that.

DR

Darth. I need your help. The other thread about Kerry's gaff has a post with the following about the military lowering their educational standards to get more recruits, so what's up?:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...ESRC=army-a.nl

[peptoabysmal]

Kerry's joke was based on the self-perpetuating Vietnam myth that the US soldiers who died were poor, uneducated blacks. The truth is that most were white with HS or better education. Kerry is living proof that you can fight in a war without learning anything about that war. Facts of the Vietnam war. In fact, Kerry started making things up.
When is Kerry going to realize that his political ambitions died in 2004?

Quote:

I started a joke,
which started the whole world crying,
but I didn't see that the joke was on me, oh no.

I started to cry,
which started the whole world laughing,
oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.

I looked at the skies,
running my hands over my eyes,
and I fell out of bed,
hurting my head from things that I'd said.

Til I finally died,
which started the whole world living,
oh, if I'd only seen that the joke was on me.

-- Robbie Williams

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by steverino

Darth. I need your help. The other thread about Kerry's gaff has a post with the following about the military lowering their educational standards to get more recruits, so what's up?:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/...ESRC=army-a.nl

As far as I know, it is true that the Army is taking a slightly larger percentage of CAT IV's. The Navy and Air Force, last I checked, were still making their numbers on the same standard as the past few years. CAT IV's represent more risk of failing to meet various standards, so the number accessed is low based on cost effectiveness.

If you are a thick wit, the last place you need to be is somewhere with a loaded weapon, eh? Being a danger to your fire team or a platoon is a suboptimal setting.

The Department of Defense "standards on qualification tests call for at least 60 percent Category 1 to 3 [the higher end of testing] and 4 percent Category 4," the lowest end, Harvey said. "The other services follow that standard and the Army National Guard always followed it as well. But the active Army chose a standard of 67 percent in Categories 1-3, and 2 percent Category 4." It now will use the Defense Department guidelines.

Not a significant change, but a slight increase in the risk that an applicant can't meet a variety of standards as MOS's get assigned, and become either unassignable or badly assignable, or released. That scenario ends up being a blow to cost effectiveness in the recruiting and manning efforts.

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

Mr-Dustin-who-doesn't-see-a-need-for-college

I never said I saw no need for college.

[ItsRDC]

Originally Posted by Dustin

As most of us know...
John Kerry said that "The uneducated get stuck in Iraq" clearly referring to George Bush being uneducated about Iraq (not knowing the difference between Shiah and Sunni at the start) and then getting "stuck" in Iraq as a result.

As we all know from the 2004 election, Bush got better grades at Yale than Kerry did, barely (Source). So how would this "joke" make any sense with Bush having done a better job of acquiring an education than Kerry?

[Darth Rotor]

Originally Posted by Dustin

I never said I saw no need for college.

So, this thread, started by you and entitled "Is college Bulls***? I think it is" was posted by your doppelganger?

DR

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

So, this thread, started by you and entitled "Is college Bulls***? I think it is" was posted by your doppelganger?

DR

The title was to get attention. The title of the thread does not represent what I actually said in it. In the thread I never said College was useless or that I saw no point for it.

[Dustin Kesselberg]

Originally Posted by ItsRDC

As we all know from the 2004 election, Bush got better grades at Yale than Kerry did, barely (Source). So how would this "joke" make any sense with Bush having done a better job of acquiring an education than Kerry?

Is this a joke or what? I can't tell.


If it isn't..Then you should realize that grades from 40 years ago have absolutely no relevence to what is going on here and now.

In the context of the war in Iraq. Bush did not do his homework and therefor got "stuck in iraq".

[Jorghnassen]

peptoabysmal: That song is by the Bee Gees...