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Notrump · 9th February 2007, 10:19 AM

Last evening I attended the first of a three-session continuing education class in poker at Harper College in Palatine, Illinois (suburban Chicago). One of the students was an elderly lady named Jane who claimed to be a professional psychic. She seemed to be angling for clients. She insisted that she is a better psychic than Irene Hughes, but is not as well known because Hughes is better at gaining media attention.

Before Jane announced any of this, she looked at me and asked my name because I looked familiar to her. I gave her my name, but that failed to jar her memory. I made a game of it, and told her that the circumstances under which she had seen me would come to her before the class ended. My assumption was that she had watched me on television. From 1987 to 2003 I was a host of a daily stock market news program seen on a Chicago TV station. Although I later learned that Jane had been the executive secretary to the president of Harper College. Over thirty years ago I was a student there and worked in the financial aid office. She never did guess where she had seen me, so that will remain on the table until next week.

Early in the class Jane asked the students and teacher for their birth dates, so that she would know their astrological signs (although she claimed not to be an astrologer.) When we asked her to guess, she responded that she is not God. She told one student that he would make a good judge. He just smiled. She told the teacher that he soon would be receiving an unexpected and sizeable sum of money. He replied that his parents had been dead for some time, and a few years ago he had accepted an early retirement in the form of a buyout from a major corporation.

Jane avoided making predictions for me, apparently because I had made some skeptical comments. When I made them she warned that those who state disbelief in psychics would receive bad karma.

During our poker playing sessions, Jane demonstrated no psychic abilities that would have provided her an advantage. She gave no indication that was adept at telling the strength of anyone’s hand. She won an early pot and then no more.

I am inviting suggestions from you regarding questions or responses for me to give to Jane in next week’s class. I don’t want to humiliate her, but I am seeking subtle comments that might alert others to her pretensions.

tracer · 9th February 2007, 10:48 AM

Continuing education ... in poker?!

Notrump · 9th February 2007, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by tracer

Continuing education ... in poker?!

Here's a link to the course listing:

http://www.harpercollege.edu/academ/.../HotTopics.htm

coalesce · 9th February 2007, 12:16 PM

When she loses a hand, turn to her and say, "And you call yourself a psychic?!"

Or you could ask her why the Universe deems you worthy of bad karma by asking her harmless questions about her abilities. Is the Universe that vindictive that it must intimidate inquisitive people into not asking?

Michael

Luke T. · 9th February 2007, 12:28 PM

Seeing as how psychics use Zener cards to demonstrate their abilities, playing cards should be no great shakes for them. She should be winning every hand.

I would not be worried about offending her. If she is shopping for clients in the class, then she needs to be confronted head-on.

Apathia · 9th February 2007, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by tracer

Continuing education ... in poker?!

Yes! Soon to be offered by Phoenix Online. LOL

Horatius · 9th February 2007, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by coalesce

When she loses a hand, turn to her and say, "And you call yourself a psychic?!"

Or, any time she wins a hand, complain loudly that she has an unfair advantage.....

Gbob · 9th February 2007, 12:46 PM

You know, I teach an ongoing education class in poker. It's called "Sunday Night Game" and students are encouraged to bring a couple hundred dollars for the lessons. I promise it'll improve your game!

I wonder, however, why a person who believed they could see the future would want to play poker. Let's say you had perfect knowledge of the cards that would come up in an open-window game such as Hold'em. Even with this knowledge, there are still many times where you would lose your money. (all knowledge does for a person in poker is increase the amount of winings in the long term. On any night a rabid chimp playing with his cards exposed could beat the best poker player int he world. It's a fustrating game that way)

Being able to see the future would be a better talent for a lottery type game.

If you were offered a choice of being able to predict a 1 milion dollar lottery, or the ability to see all of the cards in a 5 million dollar tournament, you would be better off taking the lottery.

Fnord · 9th February 2007, 01:00 PM

Shuffle the deck, pick a card at random, hold it against your forehead with the back of the card towards Jane, and ask her what it is. Have others do the same. Keep track of her guesses and the actual cards. Re-shuffle the entire decks between draws to prevent her from counting the cards. Her chances per draw of getting the right answer:

Exact Card == 1.93% (Rank & Suit)
Exact Rank == 7.69% (A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, J, Q, or K)
Exact Suit == 25.0% (Diamonds, Clubs, Spades, or Hearts)
Suit Color == 50.0% (Red or Black)
Face Card == 23.1% (J, Q, or K)
Number Card == 76.9% (A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10)

This assumes no jokers, except for the psychic herself, of course!

NobbyNobbs · 9th February 2007, 01:07 PM

When she calls someone's bluff and wins big, say "What are you, psychic?!"

kalen · 9th February 2007, 01:31 PM

Re-raise her all-in. Then say, "Bet you didn't see that coming."

Madalch · 9th February 2007, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by kalen

Re-raise her all-in. Then say, "Bet you didn't see that coming."

I thought the standard joke was "Punch her in the face. Then say 'I bet you didn't see that coming'."

Reno · 9th February 2007, 02:02 PM

Buy a pigasus from the JREF store and every time she loses a hand, give it a kiss.

Grimoire · 9th February 2007, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Madalch

I thought the standard joke was "Punch her in the face. Then say 'I bet you didn't see that coming'."

Re-raising someone all-in is the poker equivalent to a punch in the face.

SimonD · 9th February 2007, 04:55 PM

Everytime she folds say "I knew that was going to happen"

Notrump · 12th February 2007, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Seeing as how psychics use Zener cards to demonstrate their abilities, playing cards should be no great shakes for them. She should be winning every hand.

I would not be worried about offending her. If she is shopping for clients in the class, then she needs to be confronted head-on.

Indeed, you'd think all psychics would be more involved in gambling activities rather than spending time with clients. You're probably right about confronting her more directly. We'll see if she shows up on Thursday after receiving lukewarm or mildly hostile responses last week.

Grimoire · 12th February 2007, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by simon dalton

Everytime she folds say "I knew that was going to happen"

Every hand she loses, say in your best Darth Vader voice "Your powers are weak old woman."

NoZed Avenger · 12th February 2007, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Reno

Buy a pigasus from the JREF store and every time she loses a hand, give it a kiss.

I like this one. Subtle, yet evilly delicious.

Aussie Thinker · 12th February 2007, 05:59 PM

I got a poker question... What is the point of re-raising someone who is all-in.. they can't call or raise anymore anyway !

It can only affect the other players who are yet to call, fold or raise.

Grimoire · 12th February 2007, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by Aussie Thinker

I got a poker question... What is the point of re-raising someone who is all-in.. they can't call or raise anymore anyway !

It can only affect the other players who are yet to call, fold or raise.

If there is no one else still in the hand, it has no point. If there is at least one other person, then yes, it has a point. Just because one person is all in, it doesn't mean you can't keep betting.

CardZeus · 12th February 2007, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by Gbob

You know, I teach an ongoing education class in poker. It's called "Sunday Night Game" and students are encouraged to bring a couple hundred dollars for the lessons. I promise it'll improve your game!

I wonder, however, why a person who believed they could see the future would want to play poker. Let's say you had perfect knowledge of the cards that would come up in an open-window game such as Hold'em. Even with this knowledge, there are still many times where you would lose your money. (all knowledge does for a person in poker is increase the amount of winings in the long term. On any night a rabid chimp playing with his cards exposed could beat the best poker player int he world. It's a fustrating game that way)

Being able to see the future would be a better talent for a lottery type game.

If you were offered a choice of being able to predict a 1 milion dollar lottery, or the ability to see all of the cards in a 5 million dollar tournament, you would be better off taking the lottery.

mmm... methinks you should stop playing poker. You know what cards are coming so presumably you what everyone's hole cards are as well - you therefore know who will have the best hand - you shouldn't be losing in this situation

Ladewig · 12th February 2007, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by Notrump

I am inviting suggestions from you regarding questions or responses for me to give to Jane in next week’s class. I don’t want to humiliate her, but I am seeking subtle comments that might alert others to her pretensions.

My advice is to siimply ignore her. Self-proclaimed psychics thrive on attention and not giving it to her will induce her to make wilder and sillier claims. The others will notice her nuttiness while you take the high road.

Gbob · 12th February 2007, 07:31 PM

Not at all CardZues. Let's take a hold 'em situation since most folks here have seen the game, if nothing else.

You have one of two abilities. You can either see the other persons hole cards (the two cards in hold 'em that people keep face down) or you can know for a fact what cards will be coming up on the flop, the turn or the river.

You hold 9 of spades and 9 of hearts.

The other player holds 8 of spades and 8 of clubs.

Now, before the flop you're only a 4:1 favorite (about. The math is an exercise left to the reader). Now, any poker player would be happy to go into a pot with those kind of odds.

So let's say you're playing a 5/10 dollar game. You're last to act. The other player bets 40 dollars. The pot is now at 55 dollars. With your x-ray vision you see the blinds have rags and will fold. You raise, betting the pot. Pot is now 110 dollars. The guy with the 8's thinks for a while, and pushes in his last 200 dollars. The pot is now 310 dollars, and you only have to put in another 200. Remember, you're getting 4:1 odds. How could you not call?

The thing is, every 5 times you do this you're going to lose once. In a cash game, this is great, but in a tournament (blech) you could be eliminated despite knowing exactly what the other person held.

When I was teaching my son to play (he was 5 at the time) I had him play with his cards up. First time I played against him, I lost. A terrible reminder of the vicious nature of the game.

So what about being able to predict the cards coming up?

Let's say you still have those 9's. You can't see the other players cards, but you know the flop will come up 9 of diamonds, 9 of clubs and 7 of clubs. You can predict that you will have 4 of a kind. Obviously you would jump at any chance to call any bet someone makes after the flop.

The flop comes, and sure enough it's the exact same cards you predicted. The other player bets 100 dollars. Of course you call. The next card is a 6 of clubs. The other player goes all in. You know for a fact the next card is going to be a 5 of clubs. Do you still call despite the fact that if the other player has an 8 of clubs he'll win?

Of course you will. You have 4 of a kind.

So unless you have both x-ray vision and the powers of predicting the future, you are not a sure winner like you would be playing lottery numbers.

jimtron · 12th February 2007, 07:46 PM

Notrump: hello, fellow Chicagoan.

Quote:

Early in the class Jane asked the students and teacher for their birth dates, so that she would know their astrological signs (although she claimed not to be an astrologer.) When we asked her to guess, she responded that she is not God.

I wonder which God she isn't. Can God determine what your sign is? I thought Astrology and psychic dabbling was an evil punishable by death according to the Bible.

Anyway, as far as what to say with her: in my experience I've gotten farther with people when I use a light touch and keep a sense of humor about everything. I think it's easy to come off, in the eyes of the woos, as harsh or humorless or overly critical (even if that isn't the case). Maybe if you can have a relationship with the psychic where you can gently tease her--as long as you are self deprecating and let her do the same. Otherwise things can get antagonistic pretty quickly and then it will be very hard to get anywhere (IMHO).

I would want to ask her, "what can you do that non-psychics cannot do?"
I've tried to pin believers in psychic abilities down, and find out exactly what they thing psychics do, and sometimes what they describe sounds very similar to talk therapy. But you might ask her to demonstrate something that only a psychic could do--not to prove her wrong, but to understand what she does.

Do you know anything about mentalism? It might be cool to show her and the class a mentalism effect or two. I'll bet it would be much more impressive than anything she could do for the class.

CardZeus · 12th February 2007, 07:46 PM

Of course if you can only know the hole cards OR the community cards then you can lose, but why would you only be able to 'know' certain cards and not all of them?? BTW do you play poker? I cchallenge you to a heads up game on Absolute, Bodog or Pokerstars

The Don · 13th February 2007, 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by Luke T.

Seeing as how psychics use Zener cards to demonstrate their abilities, playing cards should be no great shakes for them. She should be winning every hand.

Only if she gets decent cards. If all I've got is King high and my opponent has a full house, it'd be quite hard for me to get them to fold so I could pick up the pot.

Harlequin · 13th February 2007, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by Gbob

So unless you have both x-ray vision and the powers of predicting the future, you are not a sure winner like you would be playing lottery numbers.

I think this is the key what Gbob is saying. if you think of a psychic as having "super-powers", then you might have to distinguish between these two abilities. Since most psychics just say vague things about being able to "see the future", perhaps they can see that future moment when all key cards are exposed? Or maybe they see the flop only, but from the perspective of an opponent and therefore can see their hidden cards as well?

Anyway, I have to say it's obviously a stupid argument. Psychics don't seem to enter poker tournaments - or if they do then they certainly don't seem to be winning in any dramatic fashion.

thaiboxerken · 13th February 2007, 12:31 AM

Have you mentioned the JREF prize at all? that's better than poker

Gbob · 13th February 2007, 04:13 AM

CardZues, I'm more of a live player. Vegas a few times a year, Atlantic City when I can and then my home casino of the Seneca in Niagara Falls (not to mention various home games and bars). It's not a JREF subject, but I could go on for a very long rant why online poker is not true poker, since you're only playing half the game.

I had an account on Party until they shut out American players.

Next TAM, or if you're ever in Buffalo NY, I'll be happy to take you up on the offer. We can both protect the table against people with woo powers.

You know, this does bring up an interesting point about skepticism and poker. To do well at poker in the long run you need to be a complete rationalist in regards to the odds of success. You also need a really good BS detector. Poker players are not only great liars, but also great lie detectors as reading body language is a major part of play. Why then do poker players have woo beliefs?

My feeling is that because human beings find patterns in almost everything around us, when we're faced with a game that presents us with hundreds of random outcomes each hour it becomes impossible not to see a pattern in the chaos that we attribute to "luck" or "fate" or some other woo concept. Poker players, driven mad by the schism of having to be both realists and reliers on random outcomes, find themselves adopting odd ritualistic fetish behavior such as wearing the same outfit when they're on a winning streak, "lucky" pieces of jewelry, etc. A common lesson poker players give is "play the rush" where after having a couple winning hands you play more pots since you're on a hot streak. Now, one reason why that works is that other players are reluctant to play against someone perceived as "hot" so they fold more often, reinforcing the perception of the person on the streak as winning more.

Poker is unlike chess. In chess making the perfect moves will always result in a victory. In poker, any hand is decided by the random appearance of cards. Over the course of a week, a month or a year, good play and proper choices will result in profit, and that's what you're really playing for. One bad side effect of this fact is that any player can be driven nuts.

9th February 2007, 10:19 AM	#1
Notrump Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 542	Psychic in Poker Class Last evening I attended the first of a three-session continuing education class in poker at Harper College in Palatine, Illinois (suburban Chicago). One of the students was an elderly lady named Jane who claimed to be a professional psychic. She seemed to be angling for clients. She insisted that she is a better psychic than Irene Hughes, but is not as well known because Hughes is better at gaining media attention. Before Jane announced any of this, she looked at me and asked my name because I looked familiar to her. I gave her my name, but that failed to jar her memory. I made a game of it, and told her that the circumstances under which she had seen me would come to her before the class ended. My assumption was that she had watched me on television. From 1987 to 2003 I was a host of a daily stock market news program seen on a Chicago TV station. Although I later learned that Jane had been the executive secretary to the president of Harper College. Over thirty years ago I was a student there and worked in the financial aid office. She never did guess where she had seen me, so that will remain on the table until next week. Early in the class Jane asked the students and teacher for their birth dates, so that she would know their astrological signs (although she claimed not to be an astrologer.) When we asked her to guess, she responded that she is not God. She told one student that he would make a good judge. He just smiled. She told the teacher that he soon would be receiving an unexpected and sizeable sum of money. He replied that his parents had been dead for some time, and a few years ago he had accepted an early retirement in the form of a buyout from a major corporation. Jane avoided making predictions for me, apparently because I had made some skeptical comments. When I made them she warned that those who state disbelief in psychics would receive bad karma. During our poker playing sessions, Jane demonstrated no psychic abilities that would have provided her an advantage. She gave no indication that was adept at telling the strength of anyone’s hand. She won an early pot and then no more. I am inviting suggestions from you regarding questions or responses for me to give to Jane in next week’s class. I don’t want to humiliate her, but I am seeking subtle comments that might alert others to her pretensions.
	Last edited by Notrump; 9th February 2007 at 10:23 AM.

9th February 2007, 10:48 AM	#2
tracer Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Silicon Valley, Calif. Posts: 1,356	Continuing education ... in poker?!
	__________________ The truth, as always, is more complicated than that.

9th February 2007, 11:03 AM	#3
Notrump Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 542	Poker Class Originally Posted by tracer Continuing education ... in poker?! Here's a link to the course listing: http://www.harpercollege.edu/academ/.../HotTopics.htm

9th February 2007, 12:16 PM	#4
coalesce Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 3,387	When she loses a hand, turn to her and say, "And you call yourself a psychic?!" Or you could ask her why the Universe deems you worthy of bad karma by asking her harmless questions about her abilities. Is the Universe that vindictive that it must intimidate inquisitive people into not asking? Michael
	__________________ "I want the kids in bed by nine, the dog fed, the yard watered and the gate locked. And get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!"

9th February 2007, 12:28 PM	#5
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759	Seeing as how psychics use Zener cards to demonstrate their abilities, playing cards should be no great shakes for them. She should be winning every hand. I would not be worried about offending her. If she is shopping for clients in the class, then she needs to be confronted head-on.
Luke T. Guest Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 14,759

9th February 2007, 12:33 PM	#6
Apathia Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 2,944	Originally Posted by tracer Continuing education ... in poker?! Yes! Soon to be offered by Phoenix Online. LOL

9th February 2007, 12:38 PM	#7
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada Posts: 22,032	Originally Posted by coalesce When she loses a hand, turn to her and say, "And you call yourself a psychic?!" Or, any time she wins a hand, complain loudly that she has an unfair advantage.....
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

9th February 2007, 12:46 PM	#8
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94	You know, I teach an ongoing education class in poker. It's called "Sunday Night Game" and students are encouraged to bring a couple hundred dollars for the lessons. I promise it'll improve your game! I wonder, however, why a person who believed they could see the future would want to play poker. Let's say you had perfect knowledge of the cards that would come up in an open-window game such as Hold'em. Even with this knowledge, there are still many times where you would lose your money. (all knowledge does for a person in poker is increase the amount of winings in the long term. On any night a rabid chimp playing with his cards exposed could beat the best poker player int he world. It's a fustrating game that way) Being able to see the future would be a better talent for a lottery type game. If you were offered a choice of being able to predict a 1 milion dollar lottery, or the ability to see all of the cards in a 5 million dollar tournament, you would be better off taking the lottery.
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94

9th February 2007, 01:00 PM	#9
Fnord Metasyntactic Variable Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 6,633	Pick a card, any card... Shuffle the deck, pick a card at random, hold it against your forehead with the back of the card towards Jane, and ask her what it is. Have others do the same. Keep track of her guesses and the actual cards. Re-shuffle the entire decks between draws to prevent her from counting the cards. Her chances per draw of getting the right answer: Exact Card == 1.93% (Rank & Suit) Exact Rank == 7.69% (A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, J, Q, or K) Exact Suit == 25.0% (Diamonds, Clubs, Spades, or Hearts) Suit Color == 50.0% (Red or Black) Face Card == 23.1% (J, Q, or K) Number Card == 76.9% (A, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 10) This assumes no jokers, except for the psychic herself, of course!
	__________________ Belief is the subjective acceptance of a (valid or invalid) concept, opinion, or theory; Faith is the unreasoned belief in improvable things; *and Knowledge* is the reasoned belief in provable things. Belief itself proves nothing.**

9th February 2007, 01:07 PM	#10
NobbyNobbs Gazerbeam's Protege Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: The Mended Drum Posts: 5,631	When she calls someone's bluff and wins big, say "What are you, psychic?!"
	__________________ I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding. AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant

9th February 2007, 01:31 PM	#11
kalen Your Daddy Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Classified Posts: 933	Re-raise her all-in. Then say, "Bet you didn't see that coming."
	__________________ No way! Yahweh!

9th February 2007, 01:59 PM	#12
Madalch The Jester Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The wet coast. Posts: 8,751	Originally Posted by kalen Re-raise her all-in. Then say, "Bet you didn't see that coming." I thought the standard joke was "Punch her in the face. Then say 'I bet you didn't see that coming'."

9th February 2007, 02:02 PM	#13
Reno Inquisitor Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Scotland, West Coast Posts: 1,240	Buy a pigasus from the JREF store and every time she loses a hand, give it a kiss.
	__________________ "Well, if it matters not to you how things are phrased, nor whether they make any logical sense, then here is my answer to your question: Twenty-seven rumbly-tumblies in a tinhorn fandango." - Robert S Lancaster Stop Sylvia Browne

9th February 2007, 04:40 PM	#14
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	Originally Posted by Madalch I thought the standard joke was "Punch her in the face. Then say 'I bet you didn't see that coming'." Re-raising someone all-in is the poker equivalent to a punch in the face.
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

9th February 2007, 04:55 PM	#15
SimonD Rouge Element Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Talking with Glyph Posts: 1,044	Everytime she folds say "I knew that was going to happen"

12th February 2007, 09:46 AM	#16
Notrump Muse Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 542	Originally Posted by Luke T. Seeing as how psychics use Zener cards to demonstrate their abilities, playing cards should be no great shakes for them. She should be winning every hand. I would not be worried about offending her. If she is shopping for clients in the class, then she needs to be confronted head-on. Indeed, you'd think all psychics would be more involved in gambling activities rather than spending time with clients. You're probably right about confronting her more directly. We'll see if she shows up on Thursday after receiving lukewarm or mildly hostile responses last week.

12th February 2007, 02:52 PM	#17
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	Originally Posted by simon dalton Everytime she folds say "I knew that was going to happen" Every hand she loses, say in your best Darth Vader voice "Your powers are weak old woman."
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

12th February 2007, 04:07 PM	#18
NoZed Avenger Bitter Whiner Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 11,313	Originally Posted by Reno Buy a pigasus from the JREF store and every time she loses a hand, give it a kiss. I like this one. Subtle, yet evilly delicious.
	__________________ [This Space Available. PM for Rates.]

12th February 2007, 05:59 PM	#19
Aussie Thinker Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 873	I got a poker question... What is the point of re-raising someone who is all-in.. they can't call or raise anymore anyway ! It can only affect the other players who are yet to call, fold or raise.
Aussie Thinker Muse Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 873

12th February 2007, 06:22 PM	#20
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	Originally Posted by Aussie Thinker I got a poker question... What is the point of re-raising someone who is all-in.. they can't call or raise anymore anyway ! It can only affect the other players who are yet to call, fold or raise. If there is no one else still in the hand, it has no point. If there is at least one other person, then yes, it has a point. Just because one person is all in, it doesn't mean you can't keep betting.
Grimoire Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 382	__________________ "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." -Voltaire 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0

12th February 2007, 06:45 PM	#21
CardZeus Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 111	Originally Posted by Gbob You know, I teach an ongoing education class in poker. It's called "Sunday Night Game" and students are encouraged to bring a couple hundred dollars for the lessons. I promise it'll improve your game! I wonder, however, why a person who believed they could see the future would want to play poker. Let's say you had perfect knowledge of the cards that would come up in an open-window game such as Hold'em. Even with this knowledge, there are still many times where you would lose your money. (all knowledge does for a person in poker is increase the amount of winings in the long term. On any night a rabid chimp playing with his cards exposed could beat the best poker player int he world. It's a fustrating game that way) Being able to see the future would be a better talent for a lottery type game. If you were offered a choice of being able to predict a 1 milion dollar lottery, or the ability to see all of the cards in a 5 million dollar tournament, you would be better off taking the lottery. mmm... methinks you should stop playing poker. You know what cards are coming so presumably you what everyone's hole cards are as well - you therefore know who will have the best hand - you shouldn't be losing in this situation
CardZeus Scholar Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 111

12th February 2007, 07:22 PM	#22
Ladewig Hipster alien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: not measurable Posts: 16,944	Originally Posted by Notrump I am inviting suggestions from you regarding questions or responses for me to give to Jane in next week’s class. I don’t want to humiliate her, but I am seeking subtle comments that might alert others to her pretensions. My advice is to siimply ignore her. Self-proclaimed psychics thrive on attention and not giving it to her will induce her to make wilder and sillier claims. The others will notice her nuttiness while you take the high road.
	__________________ Is the JREF message board training wheels for people who hope to one day troll other message boards? It is not that hard to get us to believe you. We are not the major leagues or even the minor leagues. We are Pee-Wee baseball. If you love striking out 10-year-olds, then you'll love trolling our board.

12th February 2007, 07:31 PM	#23
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94	Not at all CardZues. Let's take a hold 'em situation since most folks here have seen the game, if nothing else. You have one of two abilities. You can either see the other persons hole cards (the two cards in hold 'em that people keep face down) or you can know for a fact what cards will be coming up on the flop, the turn or the river. You hold 9 of spades and 9 of hearts. The other player holds 8 of spades and 8 of clubs. Now, before the flop you're only a 4:1 favorite (about. The math is an exercise left to the reader). Now, any poker player would be happy to go into a pot with those kind of odds. So let's say you're playing a 5/10 dollar game. You're last to act. The other player bets 40 dollars. The pot is now at 55 dollars. With your x-ray vision you see the blinds have rags and will fold. You raise, betting the pot. Pot is now 110 dollars. The guy with the 8's thinks for a while, and pushes in his last 200 dollars. The pot is now 310 dollars, and you only have to put in another 200. Remember, you're getting 4:1 odds. How could you not call? The thing is, every 5 times you do this you're going to lose once. In a cash game, this is great, but in a tournament (blech) you could be eliminated despite knowing exactly what the other person held. When I was teaching my son to play (he was 5 at the time) I had him play with his cards up. First time I played against him, I lost. A terrible reminder of the vicious nature of the game. So what about being able to predict the cards coming up? Let's say you still have those 9's. You can't see the other players cards, but you know the flop will come up 9 of diamonds, 9 of clubs and 7 of clubs. You can predict that you will have 4 of a kind. Obviously you would jump at any chance to call any bet someone makes after the flop. The flop comes, and sure enough it's the exact same cards you predicted. The other player bets 100 dollars. Of course you call. The next card is a 6 of clubs. The other player goes all in. You know for a fact the next card is going to be a 5 of clubs. Do you still call despite the fact that if the other player has an 8 of clubs he'll win? Of course you will. You have 4 of a kind. So unless you have both x-ray vision and the powers of predicting the future, you are not a sure winner like you would be playing lottery numbers.
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94

12th February 2007, 07:46 PM	#24
jimtron Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 2,987	Notrump: hello, fellow Chicagoan. Quote: Early in the class Jane asked the students and teacher for their birth dates, so that she would know their astrological signs (although she claimed not to be an astrologer.) When we asked her to guess, she responded that she is not God. I wonder which God she isn't. Can God determine what your sign is? I thought Astrology and psychic dabbling was an evil punishable by death according to the Bible. Anyway, as far as what to say with her: in my experience I've gotten farther with people when I use a light touch and keep a sense of humor about everything. I think it's easy to come off, in the eyes of the woos, as harsh or humorless or overly critical (even if that isn't the case). Maybe if you can have a relationship with the psychic where you can gently tease her--as long as you are self deprecating and let her do the same. Otherwise things can get antagonistic pretty quickly and then it will be very hard to get anywhere (IMHO). I would want to ask her, "what can you do that non-psychics cannot do?" I've tried to pin believers in psychic abilities down, and find out exactly what they thing psychics do, and sometimes what they describe sounds very similar to talk therapy. But you might ask her to demonstrate something that only a psychic could do--not to prove her wrong, but to understand what she does. Do you know anything about mentalism? It might be cool to show her and the class a mentalism effect or two. I'll bet it would be much more impressive than anything she could do for the class.
	__________________ Last edited by jimtron; 12th February 2007 at 07:49 PM.

13th February 2007, 12:13 AM	#26
The Don Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cymru Posts: 8,569	Originally Posted by Luke T. Seeing as how psychics use Zener cards to demonstrate their abilities, playing cards should be no great shakes for them. She should be winning every hand. Only if she gets decent cards. If all I've got is King high and my opponent has a full house, it'd be quite hard for me to get them to fold so I could pick up the pot.

13th February 2007, 12:30 AM	#27
Harlequin Kids love clowns Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Johannesburg Posts: 393	Originally Posted by Gbob So unless you have both x-ray vision and the powers of predicting the future, you are not a sure winner like you would be playing lottery numbers. I think this is the key what Gbob is saying. if you think of a psychic as having "super-powers", then you might have to distinguish between these two abilities. Since most psychics just say vague things about being able to "see the future", perhaps they can see that future moment when all key cards are exposed? Or maybe they see the flop only, but from the perspective of an opponent and therefore can see their hidden cards as well? Anyway, I have to say it's obviously a stupid argument. Psychics don't seem to enter poker tournaments - or if they do then they certainly don't seem to be winning in any dramatic fashion.
	__________________ "Once you have missed the first buttonhole, you'll never manage to button up." - Goethe

13th February 2007, 12:31 AM	#28
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 21,090	Have you mentioned the JREF prize at all? that's better than poker
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

13th February 2007, 04:13 AM	#29
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94	CardZues, I'm more of a live player. Vegas a few times a year, Atlantic City when I can and then my home casino of the Seneca in Niagara Falls (not to mention various home games and bars). It's not a JREF subject, but I could go on for a very long rant why online poker is not true poker, since you're only playing half the game. I had an account on Party until they shut out American players. Next TAM, or if you're ever in Buffalo NY, I'll be happy to take you up on the offer. We can both protect the table against people with woo powers. You know, this does bring up an interesting point about skepticism and poker. To do well at poker in the long run you need to be a complete rationalist in regards to the odds of success. You also need a really good BS detector. Poker players are not only great liars, but also great lie detectors as reading body language is a major part of play. Why then do poker players have woo beliefs? My feeling is that because human beings find patterns in almost everything around us, when we're faced with a game that presents us with hundreds of random outcomes each hour it becomes impossible not to see a pattern in the chaos that we attribute to "luck" or "fate" or some other woo concept. Poker players, driven mad by the schism of having to be both realists and reliers on random outcomes, find themselves adopting odd ritualistic fetish behavior such as wearing the same outfit when they're on a winning streak, "lucky" pieces of jewelry, etc. A common lesson poker players give is "play the rush" where after having a couple winning hands you play more pots since you're on a hot streak. Now, one reason why that works is that other players are reluctant to play against someone perceived as "hot" so they fold more often, reinforcing the perception of the person on the streak as winning more. Poker is unlike chess. In chess making the perfect moves will always result in a victory. In poker, any hand is decided by the random appearance of cards. Over the course of a week, a month or a year, good play and proper choices will result in profit, and that's what you're really playing for. One bad side effect of this fact is that any player can be driven nuts.
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94