So, JE has a 3 year waiting list? Think again...

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Clancie
Yes, if I had $1000 + dollars to "gamble away" I'd rather go to NY and "gamble" on a reading with JE, than I would go to Las Vegas for a weekend and lose it there. After all these months of talking about him--and mediumship--the chance to see what kind of reading I would have with him would be irresistable (as well as being a worthwhile "gamble" on ADC, if he turned out to be "the real deal" after all).

But you made this claim a year ago - in fact, you were referring to a time before then. So, you had, more than a year ago decided to fly across the continent, spending thousands of dollars....on a person you didn't know was a real medium...because of what? What you had seen on TV? How much exposure he had gotten in the media? How many discussions you had had?

If that isn't popularity, then what is???

[Thanz]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Yes, we know the claim is there, on his own website! He does NOT have a 3-year waiting list. He claims he has.

What is that, if not a lie?

I must be missing something. How do we know that he doesn't have a 3 year wait list?

Quote:

BNiles didn't make the claim, I did.

I know. He just posted some stuff that he claimed supported your point, and I disagreed. No big deal.

Quote:

"If only to see what happens"? Clancie lives in CA, Thanz! JE does his readings in NY! That's a LONG way to travel, just to "see what happens"!!

I don't know where she lives, nor do I particularly care how she spends her money. I am not willing to attribute a belief to a person solely because they spend their money in a different way than I would. The only reading I have ever had was from a tarot reader, and only because it was free and there was no line.

[BNiles]

Quote:

Originally posted by Thanz

I know that is what you are saying, and that is what the quote from Neo that you posted indicates. The quotes posted by BNiles don't say this though.

Thanz:
You're right. I misunderstood what was being asked, and posted what I found was only references to JE's waiting list being 3 years long. I didn't intend them to infer that the length of the list was a basis of real mediumship. The only place that I've seen this was from JE himself.

CFL:
I see what you're getting at here, but IMO, believers here don't base their belief solely on this point. Some might, but I haven't seen a post yet that shows it.

In general:
The repeating of this whole "waiting list" point can serve as a droning drum beat. If people say it long enough, they'll start to believe it. "Oh, he has a 3 year waiting list! Wow, he must be for real!" Well let’s look at this with some reality mixed in.

Lets say JE does 4 sittings a day X 365 days X 3 years = 4,380 people on the list. So he has 4,380 believers. What's the population of America again?


(Edited for spelling)

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

He closed his list in early 2002. We have never seen a longer waiting period than 3 years. Therefore, the max. waiting period in early 2002 was 3 years. No more people signing up.

Unless JE hasn't done any readings since then, he cannot still have a 3-year waiting list.

Simple logic.

[CFLarsen]

BNiles,

I'm not saying "solely".

It's a stupid word, if you say that many times over.

[BNiles]

Side note for those keeping score.
I edited my post after CFL posted behind me, and it didn't show that edited it. (except for my statement of such)

[BNiles]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
BNiles,

I'm not saying "solely".

You're right, you didn't claim it as "Solely". Even still, I haven't seen a post of anyone useing it as even one reason to believe. I find posts of people refering to JE saying it, but no one claiming that it means what JE claims it means.

[Thanz]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thanz,

He closed his list in early 2002. We have never seen a longer waiting period than 3 years. Therefore, the max. waiting period in early 2002 was 3 years. No more people signing up.

Unless JE hasn't done any readings since then, he cannot still have a 3-year waiting list.

Simple logic.

But your basis for the 3 year claim was also the website, and that was from before they closed the list. If this is what you base the "lie" on, I think your claim is shakey. I think that all he is guilty of is sloppy website updating.

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Thanz
But your basis for the 3 year claim was also the website, and that was from before they closed the list. If this is what you base the "lie" on, I think your claim is shakey. I think that all he is guilty of is sloppy website updating.

Give me a f*cking break! He runs a very tight ship, he is big business, he is a self-proclaimed control freak. The website gets updated regularly, you really think somebody hasn't noticed in over 18 months?

You are desperate, Thanz.

[RSLancastr]

Claus, will you never tire of beating dead strawmen?

I don't recall ever seeing a believer claim that the waiting list is evidence of JE's legitimacy.

It wouldn't surprise me if some did, but even assuming that they ALL claimed such a thing, showing that JE isn't as popular as claimed IS THE WRONG ARGUMENT.

If you are a critical thinker, you should know that the popularity of an idea (or person) has NO BEARING on that idea or person's legitimacy. Flat earth, anyone? (Reminds me of a poster from the 70's, which read "EAT S*** - 500 billion flies can't be wrong!")

So, by attempting to prove that JE isn't as popular as claimed, you are dignifying a fallacy (popular = legitimate) by arguing whether or not he is popular!

It's as thugh someone has said "1 + 3 = 5", and you, rather than telling them that their statement is incorrect, are saying "Wait a minute, I'm not so sure that's really a three!"

I believe I;ve said this before to you, but I really think you need to pick your battles more wisely.

[CFLarsen]

RSLancastr,

Fine, whatever. Focus on what JE claims, then.

[thaiboxerken]

(as well as being a worthwhile "gamble" on ADC, if he turned out to be "the real deal" after all).

Why gamble your own money when the JREF is gambling over one million dollars that John Edward isn't the "real deal". Too bad John Edward isn't ready to prove that he's the "real deal".

[Thanz]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen


Give me a f*cking break! He runs a very tight ship, he is big business, he is a self-proclaimed control freak. The website gets updated regularly, you really think somebody hasn't noticed in over 18 months?

You are desperate, Thanz.

I'm desperate? Desperate for what, exactly? Here is the entire announcement from the website:

Quote:

Please Read!

Due to the overwhelming number of calls we receive on the 1st Wednesday of the month call in, we will not be taking any more calls beginning January 2002.

We do not feel comfortable having people wait so long for an appointment so once we are through the list of names we will once again take call ins. As it stands right now-the waiting list for an appointment is approximately 3 years.

We will be working strictly from the waiting list...no exceptions.... Please be patient if you are already on the list...and only check with the office if you have moved or changed your contact information.

Thank you in advance for your patience.

I think that it is abundantly clear that this was all written at the same time, and that time was at some point before January 2002. The satement isn't dated, but we can tell from the first paragraph that it would be in 2001. At that time, the list was three years long.

Unless you can direct me to another area of the website that says he has a 3 year list as of mid 2003, point it out. This statement simply doesn't support your argument.

I think that you are desperate. Desperate to "catch" JE in some sort of lie, no matter how trivial.

[neofight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Thanz

I know that is what you are saying, and that is what the quote from Neo that you posted indicates. The quotes posted by BNiles don't say this though.

The argument that his popularity indicates he is real is silly.

Quote:

originally posted by neofight:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Besides which, I believe that the quote we were referring to here, was the quote where JE "bragged" that his three year waiting list was indicative of his legitimacy as a medium, an idea with which I already said I was in agreement to a certain extent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I did say that this made sense "to a certain extent", and I still believe it does. I forgot the exact words that I used following this quote, but I believe I went on to say that mediums depend upon word of mouth to spread their reputation, and if they gave crappy readings to people, they would not have a large following. No large following.....no long waiting list. I will stop short of declaring this any sort of "proof" however. ....neo

[Thanz]

Quote:

Originally posted by neofight
[BYes, I did say that this made sense "to a certain extent", and I still believe it does. I forgot the exact words that I used following this quote, but I believe I went on to say that mediums depend upon word of mouth to spread their reputation, and if they gave crappy readings to people, they would not have a large following. No large following.....no long waiting list. I will stop short of declaring this any sort of "proof" however. ....neo [/b]

Yes, I did read something about what you are saying here about word of mouth. But the exact same thing would be true if he is just a good fake. So we are in the same position as we always are - is he real? Or just a good fake?

[CFLarsen]

Thanz,

Please. Enough, OK? Is the paragraph dated? No. On a website, when you speak of "now", you mean "now", unless it is specifically dated.

Why would they leave an outdated text on a website like that?

Sorry, no can do.

neofight,

Thanks for acknowledging that I was right. Now, are you going to address the issues or not?

How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.

Please either:

• address the question, providing either a retraction or evidence of your claim, or
• state that you refuse to answer.

[neofight]

Quote:

Originally posted by BNiles


You're right, you didn't claim it as "Solely". Even still, I haven't seen a post of anyone useing it as even one reason to believe. I find posts of people refering to JE saying it, but no one claiming that it means what JE claims it means.

Right, BNiles. And to be even more precise, my quote below was written in response to Instig8R's claim that JE said this. She provided no direct quote from JE, so I have no idea if she is being accurate here or not. To me, it does not really sound like something that JE would say in the first place, but without a quote......well......you see the problem.

Quote:

originally posted by neofight:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Besides which, I believe that the quote we were referring to here, was the quote where JE "bragged" that his three year waiting list was indicative of his legitimacy as a medium, an idea with which I already said I was in agreement to a certain extent."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gee, I wonder why it is that Claus isn't harassing Instig8R to come up with that quote for accuracy's sake? Oh! (neo smacks herself upside the head) Right! Instig8R is not a believer! Of course! lol Silly me! It's that darned double standard that keeps popping up in connection with the pseudo-skeptic, Claus. One standard for believers, and an entirely different one for the skeptics.....neo

[CFLarsen]

neofight,

Just answer the question, OK? Save the personal attacks.

How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.

Please either:

• address the question, providing either a retraction or evidence of your claim, or
• state that you refuse to answer.

[neofight]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
neofight,

Just answer the question, OK? Save the personal attacks.

How are the celebritiy readings "handled differently"? Please, no speculations. We have to deal with facts, here.

Okay, I'll do you a solid and answer this question for you, Claus, even though you are very inconsistent with your demands for answers, depending upon whether or not you agree with the poster.

With regard to the celebrity readings, I don't remember ever hearing if the celebrities contact "CO", or if "CO" contacts the celebrities. Perhaps it's a little of both.

And no, even if it's "CO" contacting the celebrities, I do not believe that the producers share that information with JE.

I think it's pretty obvious that the celebrity readings are handled differently, in that they are not relegated to the same long waiting list that we peons have to abide by. .....neo

[thaiboxerken]

And no, even if it's "CO" contacting the celebrities, I do not believe that the producers share that information with JE.

John Edward IS one of the producers, what's he do, forget to tell himself the information he just gathered?


I think it's pretty obvious that the celebrity readings are handled differently, in that they are not relegated to the same long waiting list that we peons have to abide by. .....neo

You're probably correct, it's all about PR and getting the ratings. Entertainers need an audience, and celebrities will bring em.

[CFLarsen]

neofight,

Thank you for your answer. So, you have absolutely no idea if and how the celebrity readings are handled differently, except that they get handled before everyone else.

You forget that the celebrity readings mentioned in this thread did not take place within the show. They were private readings.

How does JE ensure that he does not know the identity of the celebrities he read? Surely, you are not saying that he does know the identity??

Who makes the decision which celebrity he reads in the first place? Who makes that decision, if not JE himself? A control freak like JE??? Are we to trust that his staff chooses for him, and then does not tell him the identity of the celebrities?

You gotta be kiddin'....

[BNiles]

I'm back to join in for the first time from home.

The cold reading phony knows exactly which celebs he sits with. There, I said it. That felt good.

[Clancie]

Hi Bill Niles,

Well, I hope you're sitting down because I'm going to agree with you (kinda, sorta. ).

I actually don't think JE knows who the celebs are ahead of time on CO, but the point is that, apparently, the procedures are such that he could.

That said, I think that lax procedures would actually make celebrity readings more difficult to do. Because we can't eliminate the possibility he's hot reading celebs, we'd have to discount any information coming through that he could have researched ahead of time.

So...instead, the things he'd have to bring through would need to be personal things that are not in any way public knowledge. (Names, causes of death, etc. wouldn't do).

A more difficult reading, in a way, I would think, just because of how much information is already on the public record about these people.

[Clancie]

Here's a bit about celeb readings from JE's new book, "After Life".

Quote:

"After Life", p. 27 (JE describing celeb procedures on "CO")

"...The reading was scheduled by the show's producers, who were careful to keep Tracy (Nelson's) identity a secret from me. To take the secrecy a step further, I arranged for her to sit down behind me after I was already sitting in the chair so that I couldn't see her face during the reading...I thought if I didn't see the person I was reading, whoever it was...would (relax and) pay closer attention to what I was saying without wondering if I'd recognized them."

As for the celebrity interview for the new book, here's what he said....

Quote:

"After Life", p. 27, (JE describing celeb procedures for the new book)

When working on my nonfiction books, I collaborate with another writer to make sure there's a journalistic objectivity to the readings we write about...And in the case of any celebrity-related readings, I get the writer...to organize the session so I don't know whom I'm reading beforehand or anything about them."

Well, either way, of course, it boils down to "the honor system". So, I agree that this means its necessary to discount information that could just have been researched in advance.

[RSLancastr]

Quote:

"After Life", p. 27, (JE describing celeb procedures for the new book)

When working on my nonfiction books...

He's written some non-fiction?

Sorry, couldn't help myself...

[RC]

Quote:

Originally posted by RSLancastr
Claus, will you never tire of beating dead strawmen?

I don't recall ever seeing a believer claim that the waiting list is evidence of JE's legitimacy.

It wouldn't surprise me if some did, but even assuming that they ALL claimed such a thing, showing that JE isn't as popular as claimed IS THE WRONG ARGUMENT.

If you are a critical thinker, you should know that the popularity of an idea (or person) has NO BEARING on that idea or person's legitimacy. Flat earth, anyone? (Reminds me of a poster from the 70's, which read "EAT S*** - 500 billion flies can't be wrong!")

So, by attempting to prove that JE isn't as popular as claimed, you are dignifying a fallacy (popular = legitimate) by arguing whether or not he is popular!

It's as thugh someone has said "1 + 3 = 5", and you, rather than telling them that their statement is incorrect, are saying "Wait a minute, I'm not so sure that's really a three!"

I believe I;ve said this before to you, but I really think you need to pick your battles more wisely.

Hooray Bob! If I weren't lazy, I'd nominate you for one of those awards, but please settle for RC's "this is all that needs to be said and this thread is a load of nonsense award".

[neofight]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Thank you for your answer. So, you have absolutely no idea if and how the celebrity readings are handled differently, except that they get handled before everyone else.

Claus, I cant even say that I know that much for a fact. I don't know if they get handled before everyone else, or do they just get worked into the schedule like a one here, one there kind of a thing. Unless JE explains the system they use, I'm certainly not privy to how they schedule the readings.

Quote:

You forget that the celebrity readings mentioned in this thread did not take place within the show. They were private readings.

Did you get this information from the new book? I don't have my copy yet. Since you say these celebrity readings are not going to be used for the show, do we even know if these people were treated preferentially? Perhaps they simply had their names on the list, and their appointment finally came up.

Quote:

How does JE ensure that he does not know the identity of the celebrities he read? Surely, you are not saying that he does know the identity??

Well, when there were the celebrity readings on "CO", it was supposedly understood that JE had no idea whom he was reading. If you remember, they always had him sitting with his back to the celebrity, and in others, he was on the other side of a partitian. Naturally, when he would do the readings right in the celebrity's own home, at some point he became aware of who the sitter was.

Quote:

Who makes the decision which celebrity he reads in the first place? Who makes that decision, if not JE himself? A control freak like JE??? Are we to trust that his staff chooses for him, and then does not tell him the identity of the celebrities?

You gotta be kiddin'....

As I said, I don't know how this whole thing works, but in those cases where JE has claimed not to know in advance who it was he would be reading, I tend to believe that claim. I don't know what's so difficult to believe about the "CO" people arranging the celebrity readings for JE. As far as I'm concerned, he would have no need to know.

As far as who gets chosen, why do you think only some of them are chosen? Do you personally know of any celebrity who wanted a reading and was flat-out refused?....neo

[neofight]

Quote:

Originally posted by Clancie
Here's a bit about celeb readings from JE's new book, "After Life".

Thanks for that information, Clancie. I get my copy of "After Life" tomorrow at the book-signing.

Quote:

Well, either way, of course, it boils down to "the honor system". So, I agree that this means its necessary to discount information that could just have been researched in advance.

I agree. Generally known information that comes through during celebrity readings does not count for much......neo

[RSLancastr]

Quote:

Originally posted by neofight
Well, when there were the celebrity readings on "CO", it was supposedly understood that JE had no idea whom he was reading. If you remember, they always had him sitting with his back to the celebrity, and in others, he was on the other side of a partitian. Naturally, when he would do the readings right in the celebrity's own home, at some point he became aware of who the sitter was.

The only celebrity reading I saw was Coolio, which I think was filmed backstage at the studio (although maybe it was at Coolio's), and JE was facing Coolio and Coolio's sisters the entire time.

[neofight]

Quote:

Originally posted by RSLancastr
The only celebrity reading I saw was Coolio, which I think was filmed backstage at the studio (although maybe it was at Coolio's), and JE was facing Coolio and Coolio's sisters the entire time.

Yes, RSL. There are many readings of celebrities done face-to-face, and these are usually at the celebrity's home. Melissa Gilbert, Anne Rice, Backstreet Boys etc. Studio readings most often are not done face-to-face. I can't say that I remember where the Coolio reading was held......neo

[Loki]

Claus,

Storm in a teacup time again?

Quote:

JE-fan(atic)s often point to the 3-year waiting list as evidence that JE is real - for why else would he be so popular? He also brags about it himself, for the very same reason.

Think again.

JE describes in his upcoming book "After Life" that he has contacted Aaliyah, who died two years ago. He has contacted the mother of Mia Tyler, daughter of Aerosmith singer Steven Tyler. The mother died September 9th, 2002. Not even one year ago.
...
The book also has to be written, proof-read, printed, distributed, etc, etc. All that takes time.
...
That means his waiting list is not 3 years, but far, far less than 1 year. Unless, of course, celebrities don't have to wait in line...

Unless the celebrities were already in line. Surely that's unlikely, but how have you eliminated that possibility?

Quote:

"Bending the rules" again? But wait, that can't be true, because how can JE "bend the rules" for celebrities, if he doesn't know who he is reading?

As answered above, by JE in his own words - the producers and his co-author make the arrangements, and don't tell him at his request. You don't have to believe that (I don't), but can you show it's not true?

Whats the reasonable conclusion from what you've "discovered"? Simply that JE has a long waiting list for private readings, and for reasons known only by himself and his associates (but probably related to the word "publicity") he does "celebrity" readings ocasionally that are not part of this waiting list. He adds the claim that these "special" readings are organised for him, and he has no foreknowledge of the sitter.

Is there a point here worth making? I can't see it...

[Flo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Clancie
Here's a bit about celeb readings from JE's new book, "After Life".


As for the celebrity interview for the new book, here's what he said....

Well, either way, of course, it boils down to "the honor system". So, I agree that this means its necessary to discount information that could just have been researched in advance.

And it still doesn't ring a bell for the rest of his "shows" ?

[CFLarsen]

Ah. Progress. And the sun shines, too...

Clancie,

We have to discard the celebrity readings, if public info comes up, because of the possibility of hot reading. I'm with you.

However, we cannot accept not-public information either. Celebrities are public figures, and it is very, very easy to use private detectives to dig up something, especially because their names are known in advance.

Depending on the "honor system" - trusting JE's word - is like paying money to a magician who promises he won't peek. That has to be the ultimate sign of gullibility.

RC,

You never seem too lazy to throw the odd snide remark at me. Perhaps you should either engage in a real discussion at some point, or simply stay away.

neofight,

OK, so you don't know how - or even if - the celebrity readings are handled any different.

I did not say that the celebrity readings weren't going to be used in the show. I merely said that they were not taped during the show. Please don't misrepresent what I say, neo.

Sitting with his back to the sitter is not my idea of security. Believing JE's word is not security either.

But I'm glad to see you acknowledge that JE gets visual feedback from the homes of the sitters. I'm also glad to see that you dismiss the readings that Michael Kelly and Russ Brunelli got, because that information JE came up with was "generally known" - it was found on the Internet. Progress.

How do I know some are refused? I don't. But if JE has the time for every celebrity that comes along - as long as it is a celebrity - what does that say about his wish to "just help"? That shows JE as nothing but a publicity hound.

How can you switch within minutes from "If you remember, they always had him sitting with his back to the celebrity, and in others, he was on the other side of a partitian"? to "There are many readings of celebrities done face-to-face"?? Quite frankly, you don't seem to be very well versed in JE...or you simply choose the explanation that makes JE look the best - until you are faced with contradictory evidence.

It makes it very hard to discuss anything with you. You do see the problem, don't you?

Loki,

I think we can safely say that we can eliminate Aaliyah's folks getting a celebrity reading to contact the dead Aaliyah before she died, don't you think? The same goes for Mia Tyler. Why would Mia Tyler sign up for a reading to try and contact her mother before her mother died?

My point is that JE is not being truthful when he claims to have a 3-year waiting list, "no exceptions". That puts his claim that he is only trying to help in a questionable light. It is also highly questionable how those celebrity readings take place - I mean, even neofight has to admit that "many celebrity readings" are done face to face. The risk of a leak is of such magnitude that both neofight and Clancie - our resident JE-fans - have had to admit that we can't trust those readings.

Not a storm in a teacup at all (in DK, it's a glass of water ).

Progress. Little by little, perhaps. But progress.

[Darat]

Quote:

Originally posted by Loki
Claus,

...snip...

Unless the celebrities were already in line. Surely that's unlikely, but how have you eliminated that possibility?

...snip...

I have to say if they were already in line for a reading before the death of the celebrity i.e.

"JE describes in his upcoming book "After Life" that he has contacted Aaliyah, who died two years ago. He has contacted the mother of Mia Tyler, daughter of Aerosmith singer Steven Tyler. The mother died September 9th, 2002. Not even one year ago. He has also contacted the father of Norman Mailer's wife. (Time of death not available)."

Then perhaps it is the police we should all be contacting!

[Lurker]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen

Sitting with his back to the sitter is not my idea of security. Believing JE's word is not security either.

In total agreement. There are myriad ways for JE to defeat this security system.

Quote:

How do I know some are refused? I don't. But if JE has the time for every celebrity that comes along - as long as it is a celebrity - what does that say about his wish to "just help"? That shows JE as nothing but a publicity hound.

I agree. Although it could be argued that JE need publicity to keep his show on the air so his message of love and *whatever* can reach a wider audience. In essence, JE is suffering through these celebrity interviews so he can keep helping the masses. Streeeetch!

Quote:

Loki,

I think we can safely say that we can eliminate Aaliyah's folks getting a celebrity reading to contact the dead Aaliyah before she died, don't you think? The same goes for Mia Tyler. Why would Mia Tyler sign up for a reading to try and contact her mother before her mother died?

My point is that JE is not being truthful when he claims to have a 3-year waiting list, "no exceptions". That puts his claim that he is only trying to help in a questionable light. It is also highly questionable how those celebrity readings take place - I mean, even neofight has to admit that "many celebrity readings" are done face to face. The risk of a leak is of such magnitude that both neofight and Clancie - our resident JE-fans - have had to admit that we can't trust those readings.

[/b]

I agree he is not being truthful but so what? Big deal. He "lied" about something quite inconsequential. It may offend our sense of equality but that is about it.

And if I may play JE advocate for a second, these celebrities could have been in line. Perhaps they wanted to contact someone else at first? I don't believe it for a second but the possibility exists.

Regardless, the portion of this thread about lines - SO WHAT? The portion about the protocols on celebrity readings is a bit better so keep it up. Methinks neo looked a bit inconsistent.

Lurker

[BNiles]

I think what CFL is getting at here is a simple line of logic.
1.) 3 Year waiting list (No Exceptions)
2.) Celebs don't wait on the list (Time frame sooner than 3 yrs)
3.) Celebs must be somehow known in advance (face to face or back to back)
4.) Opportunity for Hot Reading opens (public lives to include WTC victims)

These assumptions are mostly based on circumstantial reasoning; however, it is good reasoning IMO. I think the disagreements start at #3 because although the opportunity is present, we can't prove that it was acted upon. I feel very strong that it was, but I can't prove it.

I've stated this before, but feel it once again applies:
I can't prove that God exists, but that doesn't mean he doesn't.
I can't prove that God doesn't exist, but that doesn't mean he does.

As usual, the logic may be sound, but without proof it's only speculation.

P.S. Clancie, I'm glad I was sitting down when you agreed with me.