The Science of Discworld

H3LL · 21st February 2005, 07:27 PM

I'm half-way through the second of Terry Pratchett's Science of Discworld books.

What I would like to know, from anyone that has read either, is whether the 'roundworld' science he talks about is accurate? His comment about cosmology, planetary formation and evolution seem to be so.

Has narrativium been discussed in a more academic fashion or is it pure Pratchett?

Is his concept of "L-space" consistent with phase-space thinking?

His discworld 'science' is, of course, perfect.

"Ook!"

balrog666 · 21st February 2005, 07:48 PM

It's turtles all the way down.

H3LL · 29th April 2005, 10:44 PM

Seeing as I'm the only person in the entire world that seems to have read the previous two.

Am I going to be the only one to read the new one?

Darwin's Watch: Science of Discworld III.

And it's only one turtle (and 4 elephants. The 5th one fell off). Tsk!

BTW. If anyone wishes to purchase the above and send it to a poor, overworked ex-pat struggling to make ends meet on a salary that wouldn't feed Bush's dog please feel free. Amazon do deliver here (eventually).

Gwyn ap Nudd · 30th April 2005, 12:59 AM

Larry Niven in reference to his Ringworld series has published essays about the (real-world) physics of the structure, especially aknowleging nits picked in previous descriptions by engineer fans. Two of these essays can be found appended to his latest books in the series Ringworld Throne and Ringworld's Children. The first of these essays, however, he published separately in a book of essays and short stories. (I thought it might be All the Myriad Ways, but it looks like I may have been mistaken. ) In that essay, he also considered a discworld and a Dyson sphere.

Pratchett apparently invented two different Diskworlds. The first one he presented in a story called Strata, this was the kind of discworld Niven descibed in his essay, and the story was a blatant satire on Ringworld. The second is the more familiar fantasy version with the elephants and the turtle.

Soapy Sam · 30th April 2005, 02:52 AM

Gwynn- I think Strata only appeared in print after the success of "The Colour of Magic", so while written earlier, the "other" discworld was published later.

Stewart and Cohen, Pratchett's collaborators on the "Science of Discworld" books, are serious scientist / mathematicians. They also wrote "What does a Martian Look Like" and several other popular books on science, as well as having worked with several well known SF writers on the construction of feasible worlds and cultures. Their science is usually pretty reliable. Where they speculate (as they do better than practically anyone) they make it plain that's what they are doing.

Kiless · 30th April 2005, 03:28 AM

Oh, I have a student who asked if in 'Pyramids', the practice of pointing items like razors hubward in order to sharpen them, was based on any real life superstition about magnetism? Should I get a copy of this book? I have all the novels (I still find 'Good Omens' (non-Discworld, natch) the best of his work so far although the most recent one I read, 'Going Postal', is pretty close... I've developed a bit of a crush on Lord Vetinari... tch, me and sociopaths, what can I say... ) but have always hesitated about the additional non-Pratchett supplements.

Filippo Lippi · 30th April 2005, 03:37 AM

I thought the Discworld bits were Pratchett and the Roundworld bits were two scientists (I forget their names). The books are there to explain how Roundworld works rather than expand on every bit of Discworld 'science' and folklore.

Good books, though, but may be a bit basic for the advanced thinkers.

Terry · 30th April 2005, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by H3LL
Seeing as I'm the only person in the entire world that seems to have read the previous two.

Am I going to be the only one to read the new one?

I've read them. They were pretty good.

Quote:

BTW. If anyone wishes to purchase the above and send it to a poor, overworked ex-pat struggling to make ends meet on a salary that wouldn't feed Bush's dog please feel free. Amazon do deliver here (eventually).

Not unless you can wait until it's in paperback

--Terry.

Soapy Sam · 30th April 2005, 10:33 AM

Filippo Lippi- Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart. See my post above.

Filippo Lippi · 30th April 2005, 12:04 PM

Oh yes, sorry

Smike · 30th April 2005, 01:07 PM

I've read the first two. They seem to be OK on the science, although I'm not an expert.

Bear in mind that a lot of the theories they cover are "only" theories...

I would, however, make them (or at least the first one) required reading if I ever became a physics teacher.

Jimbo07 · 15th April 2007, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Smike

I would, however, make them (or at least the first one) required reading if I ever became a physics teacher.

I'm only part way into the first one, but from what I've read so far, I'd have to agree.

parrotslave · 15th April 2007, 12:56 PM

When Pterry took part in an online forum as a promotion for one of his books, I asked him if there was any chance of publishing all three SoD books in one volume.

He replied that they probably wouldn't because he felt that some of the science in them needed updating.

Jimbo07 · 15th April 2007, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by parrotslave

He replied that they probably wouldn't because he felt that some of the science in them needed updating.

Can't he just absorb those under 'Lies-to-children' in an introduction to the new volume?

Morwen · 15th April 2007, 01:04 PM

I've read the three of them and loved them all. All the physics go a bit over my head, although I find the explanations really well written and enjoyable, but I can't really say how accurate they are. They seem very good, though.

The second book deals with less firmly-grounded material, but it's fascinating nevertheless and very intriguing. It explores in deep the concepts of narrativium and L-space as a way of explaining our psychology. I loved it when the authors say that Homo sapiens is the wrong name for our species and that we should call ourselves Pan narrans, the storytelling chimpanzee. It made a good case for it, too.

The third deals with evolution, which is more my field, and I have to say it's quite excellent. It does not dumb anything down while being clear, funny, and entertaining. It clears up, not only the most blatant misconceptions of Darwinian evolution, but also some common ones that are a bit harder to explain away (such as "survival of the fittest", what natural selection is, or competition between species).

The Discworld science is, of course, wonderful, as are the stories. And I loved how Roundworld was created! These books should be in all the libraries, yes, yes, yes, and a big yes.

Jimbo07 · 15th April 2007, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Morwen

All the physics go a bit over my head, although I find the explanations really well written and enjoyable, but I can't really say how accurate they are. They seem very good, though.

...

The third deals with evolution, which is more my field, and I have to say it's quite excellent. It does not dumb anything down while being clear, funny, and entertaining.

Actually, as far as the mid 90s physics goes, it's not bad. Also, the fundamentals of inquiry do not change (they credit Newton for orbital calculations, which is as true now as it was in the 60s).

The idea of dumbing things down is really well handled by 'Lies-to-children,' 'Lies-to-readers,' etc. They do a good job, not only of explaining where these concepts come from, but also in justifying their usefulness. This would be a great accompanying text for any first year survey class of some science subject.

Morwen · 15th April 2007, 01:23 PM

Agreed. The way they explain their "Lies-to-X" concept, is not dumbing down as such; at least, I don't see it that way. It's a way of adapting the explanation to the audience without treating the audience as idiots. And they don't hide the fact that they they are lies, while also stressing that they are useful as intermediate steps, until we get to the more sophisticated lies we have found, which are our models of how the universe works. I really liked that, as well as all the humor and the slightly irreverent examples.

Hawk one · 15th April 2007, 01:44 PM

Actually, I stopped reading partway through the third book. When they (Ian Stewart and Jack Corben) were discussing the part about the importance of genes (chapter: The secret of life), they made some comments I just couldn't get over. THey are f.ex. discussing the fact that human DNA actually contains a whole viral DNA sequence in it. This viral genome actually allows us to be born, because it stops a mother's immune system from rejecting the fetus. Which is pretty damn useful in itself.

But then they conclude that this somehow is an argument against selfish genes. They put the words selfish in italics, apparently as mockery. Which makes no sense to me at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, the whole idea about the selfish gene theory is that it'd pretty much predict that something like this would happen. Heck, Dawkins himself has discussed how the transition from being virus to become part of the ordinary DNA can happen.

They're also overstating the aspect of junk DNA being junk. Even though they are correct in that much of what we thought had no function do in fact have it, that doesn't change much. You only need one single gene that's really doing nothing at all, and then the "selfish gene" theory will be best suited to explain that, because it states that from the point of view of the gene, that's not junk at all. It's perfectly fine simply being able to split. It's only "junk" from our point of view.

I also remember they came with some comment about the "total cost" thing in book 2 (don't remember the chapter, I'm afraid). Now to my knowledge, the general consensus, especially in the gene camp, is that there is a cost associated with everything. Growing big means you require more food. Big brains require longer period of nursing. Etc. etc. They didn't seem to have much regard for the kind of evolution theory that puts the focus on this, so they suggested - before I read book 3 I thought this was a joke, but now I'm not so sure - that f.ex. the modern banana tree allowed itself to be turned into what it is by humans out of "love".

And in order to come with this claim without making it seem too outlandish, they talk about this cost-reward thing as if anything decides -beforehand- what should be done, which is a rather typical fallacy when talking about evolution. It doesn't decide anything, new abilities (or improvement of abilities, or degration of abilites) are added, and then only once it's added, you find out if the cost is bigger than the reward.

So yeah, I was impressed at first with these books, but that's sort of faded away.

Jimbo07 · 15th April 2007, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Hawk one

When they (Ian Stewart and Jack Corben) were discussing the part about the importance of genes (chapter: The secret of life), they made some comments I just couldn't get over.

...

So yeah, I was impressed at first with these books, but that's sort of faded away.

Interesting. Would this be an example of experts in one field reaching too far into another? Should they have gotten other collaborators if they wanted to go off into other topics?

Hawk one · 15th April 2007, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Jimbo07

Interesting. Would this be an example of experts in one field reaching too far into another? Should they have gotten other collaborators if they wanted to go off into other topics?

Could have been if it had been Ian Stewart making the bulk of those chapters, but from what I can see of Jack Cohen's biblography, he seems to be into biology, of which we all know evolution is a pretty damn big and important part. Living embryos, reproduction, parents making parents are three of the books I can see he's written on his own. I don't think it's a big stretch to imagine it was him having the final word on the evolutionary chapters.

Darat · 15th April 2007, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Gwynn- I think Strata only appeared in print after the success of "The Colour of Magic", so while written earlier, the "other" discworld was published later.

...snip...

No Strata's publication pre-dated The Colour of Magic. His pre-discworld stuff was probably re-published after the success of the first couple of Discworld novels.

(Gosh this is from long ago.)

Jimbo07 · 15th April 2007, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

(Gosh this is from long ago.)

Yeah, but this is the first time I am reading the whole thing (as opposed to select passages). Shockingly, I actually did a search on this topic before posting a whole new thread!

andyandy · 15th April 2007, 02:31 PM

++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start.
Mr. Jelly! Mr. Jelly! Error at Address Number 6, Treacle Mine Road.
Melon melon melon
+++Wahhhhhhh! Mine!+++
+++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++

andyandy · 15th April 2007, 05:07 PM

just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK?
I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is

how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity?

Jimbo07 · 15th April 2007, 05:36 PM

I can't comment on the States, or overall retail figures, but here in Canada, my sister has almost all of them...

ottle · 15th April 2007, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK?
I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is

how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity?

I think they're doing pretty well in the U.S., actually. They recently did a bunch of reprints in the U.S. with new covers and new combinations (a combined set of Death books, a set of Rincewind books etc.) They are also starting to show up here as soon as they are available in the U.S., which hasn't always been the case. I no longer have to bug my Brit friends to send them to me...

It's nice to see the U.S. finally cotton on to Pratchett's genius

grmcdorman · 15th April 2007, 06:58 PM

To add another data point, I and my sister here in Canada have virtually all of the books. (My copy of The Colour of Magic is getting a bit tattered, in fact.)

My older son is also a fan, but he just mooches off with my copies. My mother, too, although she usually gets my sister's copies, not mine.

I think Canada is a bit more aware of the books, though.

P.S. Does the M-word fall under Rule 8?

(It certainly would if the Librarian was online

)

Verde · 15th April 2007, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by andyandy

just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK?
I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is

how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity?

Here in Arizona the principal bookseller, Barnes & Noble, did not have anything by Pratchett some months ago when I went looking for Thud!. By comparison, Borders (Books and Music) had half a shelf-full of his works. The only problem was to get to it one had to pass by a couple of racks of Saliva and her ilk.

It irks me that her crap is in the 'Self Improvement' section, whereas Terry's is under the 'Fantasy' banner.

It should be the other way around.

Hawk one · 16th April 2007, 02:53 AM

Norwegian situation: Most bookstores with a section of untranslated books will have at least a few Pratchett books in them. If it's a decent-sized store, there will usually be his entire collection, give or take a few books that's recently sold out. And it's being translated, though I don't care for that.

Ichneumonwasp · 16th April 2007, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by andyandy

just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK?
I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is

how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity?

Millenium hand and shrimp!?

Morwen · 16th April 2007, 05:02 AM

In Spain they're quite a big hit, despite the translations being, well, difficult. Much of the wordplay gets lost, as do many references. But each new book is eagerly awaited. Hogfather came out in February, and before that one, Small Gods (biiiiig success, that one, it hits all the right notes with many Spaniards, as you can imagine.) They're not published following any particular order.

kleinjahr · 16th April 2007, 05:36 AM

Pratchett's narrativium may be similar in concept to Heinlein's ideas in "The Number of the Beast". What Spider Robinson calls a ficton.
That said do remember, that the thing of the thing is all of the thing.

Strider1974 · 16th April 2007, 06:38 AM

Pterry is very big in Australia. He has written an Aussie send up for Discworld - The Last Continent and he has done a number of book signing tours. I have seen him twice in the last 3 years.
His last trip down under was for the first Australian Discworld convention and Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen were special guests - via video link
http://www.ausdwcon.org/detail/show/guest

EDIT - I am very keen to see what Sam Raimi does with The Wee Free Men

Gilmar · 16th April 2007, 07:23 AM

Pratchett seems to be doing well in the US. There's usually a shelf or two of his books at Borders or B&N. I'm glad we finally caught up with the UK publishing schedule a few years back. For those who want even more Pratchett-related stuff, try http://www.artificer.co.uk/.

Flo · 16th April 2007, 07:39 AM

Pratchett's books have all been translated to French and are available in most bookstores. Translation is not too bad, with many of the puns and jokes rendered into rather clever equivalents.

Cuddles · 16th April 2007, 08:39 AM

I've read all three and thought they were all reasonably good as lay science books. Unfortunately, as is always the case, there are many things that are wrong, usually simply due to simplification. As Pratchett says, lies to children. You will never get a lay science book to be completely accurate, but these ones do quite a good job. It is worth bearing in mind that Jack Cohen is a biologist and Ian Stewart is a mathematician, so areas involving those subjects are likely to be good, while others might not be as reliable.

As for the questions about L-space and narrativium, was that a joke? I'm pretty sure both of those are exclusively Discworld, and they certainly aren't consistent with any of our boring Roundworld thinking.

bjornart · 16th April 2007, 09:34 AM

I've been waiting for the right time to get the third book, but it's on its way now.

NobbyNobbs · 16th April 2007, 11:03 AM

All of my local bookstores generally have a pretty good selection of Pratchett books. (I'm in the U.S.)

Ashles · 16th April 2007, 12:52 PM

I have to add that I finished Monstrous Regiment yesterday and thought it was utterly brilliant. I was actually nearly in tears in a couple of places.

Morwen · 16th April 2007, 12:54 PM

Socks!

21st February 2005, 07:27 PM	#1
H3LL Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: (ləʊˈkeɪʃən) - n. 1. a site or position; situation. Posts: 4,976	The Science of Discworld I'm half-way through the second of Terry Pratchett's Science of Discworld books. What I would like to know, from anyone that has read either, is whether the 'roundworld' science he talks about is accurate? His comment about cosmology, planetary formation and evolution seem to be so. Has narrativium been discussed in a more academic fashion or is it pure Pratchett? Is his concept of "L-space" consistent with phase-space thinking? His discworld 'science' is, of course, perfect. "Ook!"
	__________________ "I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it". - PTerry Top 10 Reasons Why I Procrastinate: 1.

21st February 2005, 07:48 PM	#2
balrog666 Eigenmode: Cynic Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,527	It's turtles all the way down.
	__________________ A person who won't think has no advantage over one who can't think. - (paraphrased) Mark Twain Diversity--When all colors and creeds believe exactly as liberals want them to. Or Else! -Coyote

29th April 2005, 10:44 PM	#3
H3LL Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: (ləʊˈkeɪʃən) - n. 1. a site or position; situation. Posts: 4,976	Seeing as I'm the only person in the entire world that seems to have read the previous two. Am I going to be the only one to read the new one? Darwin's Watch: Science of Discworld III. And it's only one turtle (and 4 elephants. The 5th one fell off). Tsk! BTW. If anyone wishes to purchase the above and send it to a poor, overworked ex-pat struggling to make ends meet on a salary that wouldn't feed Bush's dog please feel free. Amazon do deliver here (eventually).
	__________________ "I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it". - PTerry Top 10 Reasons Why I Procrastinate: 1.

30th April 2005, 02:52 AM	#5
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Gwynn- I think Strata only appeared in print after the success of "The Colour of Magic", so while written earlier, the "other" discworld was published later. Stewart and Cohen, Pratchett's collaborators on the "Science of Discworld" books, are serious scientist / mathematicians. They also wrote "What does a Martian Look Like" and several other popular books on science, as well as having worked with several well known SF writers on the construction of feasible worlds and cultures. Their science is usually pretty reliable. Where they speculate (as they do better than practically anyone) they make it plain that's what they are doing.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

30th April 2005, 03:28 AM	#6
Kiless Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 6,103	Oh, I have a student who asked if in 'Pyramids', the practice of pointing items like razors hubward in order to sharpen them, was based on any real life superstition about magnetism? Should I get a copy of this book? I have all the novels (I still find 'Good Omens' (non-Discworld, natch) the best of his work so far although the most recent one I read, 'Going Postal', is pretty close... I've developed a bit of a crush on Lord Vetinari... tch, me and sociopaths, what can I say... ) but have always hesitated about the additional non-Pratchett supplements.
Kiless Guest Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 6,103

30th April 2005, 12:59 AM	#4
Gwyn ap Nudd Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 381	Larry Niven in reference to his Ringworld series has published essays about the (real-world) physics of the structure, especially aknowleging nits picked in previous descriptions by engineer fans. Two of these essays can be found appended to his latest books in the series Ringworld Throne and Ringworld's Children. The first of these essays, however, he published separately in a book of essays and short stories. (I thought it might be All the Myriad Ways, but it looks like I may have been mistaken. ) In that essay, he also considered a discworld and a Dyson sphere. Pratchett apparently invented two different Diskworlds. The first one he presented in a story called Strata, this was the kind of discworld Niven descibed in his essay, and the story was a blatant satire on Ringworld. The second is the more familiar fantasy version with the elephants and the turtle.

30th April 2005, 03:37 AM	#7
Filippo Lippi Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nottingham Posts: 1,576	I thought the Discworld bits were Pratchett and the Roundworld bits were two scientists (I forget their names). The books are there to explain how Roundworld works rather than expand on every bit of Discworld 'science' and folklore. Good books, though, but may be a bit basic for the advanced thinkers.
	__________________ "There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." - Richard Dawkins

30th April 2005, 08:48 AM	#8
Terry Zeitgeist-impaired Technical Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: logged in to the server Posts: 6,450	Quote: Originally posted by H3LL Seeing as I'm the only person in the entire world that seems to have read the previous two. Am I going to be the only one to read the new one? I've read them. They were pretty good. Quote: BTW. If anyone wishes to purchase the above and send it to a poor, overworked ex-pat struggling to make ends meet on a salary that wouldn't feed Bush's dog please feel free. Amazon do deliver here (eventually). Not unless you can wait until it's in paperback --Terry.

30th April 2005, 10:33 AM	#9
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885	Filippo Lippi- Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart. See my post above.
Soapy Sam NLH Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 25,885

30th April 2005, 12:04 PM	#10
Filippo Lippi Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Nottingham Posts: 1,576	Oh yes, sorry
	__________________ "There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." - Richard Dawkins

30th April 2005, 01:07 PM	#11
Smike Innocent bystander Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: UK Posts: 2,111	Re: The Science of Discworld I've read the first two. They seem to be OK on the science, although I'm not an expert. Bear in mind that a lot of the theories they cover are "only" theories... I would, however, make them (or at least the first one) required reading if I ever became a physics teacher.
	__________________ 'As notable chicken superior court judge Sir Peckpeck Eatsbugs-Smythe once said, "the only thing we have to fear is space lizards with atom ray guns from beyond the moon." As true today as when it was said.' - TragicMonkey

15th April 2007, 12:51 PM	#12
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	Originally Posted by Smike I would, however, make them (or at least the first one) required reading if I ever became a physics teacher. I'm only part way into the first one, but from what I've read so far, I'd have to agree.
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

15th April 2007, 12:56 PM	#13
parrotslave Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Island of Misfit Toys Posts: 249	When Pterry took part in an online forum as a promotion for one of his books, I asked him if there was any chance of publishing all three SoD books in one volume. He replied that they probably wouldn't because he felt that some of the science in them needed updating.

15th April 2007, 12:59 PM	#14
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	Originally Posted by parrotslave He replied that they probably wouldn't because he felt that some of the science in them needed updating. Can't he just absorb those under 'Lies-to-children' in an introduction to the new volume?
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

15th April 2007, 01:04 PM	#15
Morwen Reality junkie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 780	I've read the three of them and loved them all. All the physics go a bit over my head, although I find the explanations really well written and enjoyable, but I can't really say how accurate they are. They seem very good, though. The second book deals with less firmly-grounded material, but it's fascinating nevertheless and very intriguing. It explores in deep the concepts of narrativium and L-space as a way of explaining our psychology. I loved it when the authors say that Homo sapiens is the wrong name for our species and that we should call ourselves Pan narrans, the storytelling chimpanzee. It made a good case for it, too. The third deals with evolution, which is more my field, and I have to say it's quite excellent. It does not dumb anything down while being clear, funny, and entertaining. It clears up, not only the most blatant misconceptions of Darwinian evolution, but also some common ones that are a bit harder to explain away (such as "survival of the fittest", what natural selection is, or competition between species). The Discworld science is, of course, wonderful, as are the stories. And I loved how Roundworld was created! These books should be in all the libraries, yes, yes, yes, and a big yes.
	__________________ "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move." -- Douglas Adams "La vida, esa chulería de la materia" -- Emile Ciorán

15th April 2007, 01:17 PM	#16
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	Originally Posted by Morwen All the physics go a bit over my head, although I find the explanations really well written and enjoyable, but I can't really say how accurate they are. They seem very good, though. ... The third deals with evolution, which is more my field, and I have to say it's quite excellent. It does not dumb anything down while being clear, funny, and entertaining. Actually, as far as the mid 90s physics goes, it's not bad. Also, the fundamentals of inquiry do not change (they credit Newton for orbital calculations, which is as true now as it was in the 60s). The idea of dumbing things down is really well handled by 'Lies-to-children,' 'Lies-to-readers,' etc. They do a good job, not only of explaining where these concepts come from, but also in justifying their usefulness. This would be a great accompanying text for any first year survey class of some science subject.
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

15th April 2007, 01:23 PM	#17
Morwen Reality junkie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 780	Agreed. The way they explain their "Lies-to-X" concept, is not dumbing down as such; at least, I don't see it that way. It's a way of adapting the explanation to the audience without treating the audience as idiots. And they don't hide the fact that they they are lies, while also stressing that they are useful as intermediate steps, until we get to the more sophisticated lies we have found, which are our models of how the universe works. I really liked that, as well as all the humor and the slightly irreverent examples.
	__________________ "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move." -- Douglas Adams "La vida, esa chulería de la materia" -- Emile Ciorán

15th April 2007, 01:44 PM	#18
Hawk one Emperor of the Internet Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Right below The Hat. Posts: 12,845	Actually, I stopped reading partway through the third book. When they (Ian Stewart and Jack Corben) were discussing the part about the importance of genes (chapter: The secret of life), they made some comments I just couldn't get over. THey are f.ex. discussing the fact that human DNA actually contains a whole viral DNA sequence in it. This viral genome actually allows us to be born, because it stops a mother's immune system from rejecting the fetus. Which is pretty damn useful in itself. But then they conclude that this somehow is an argument against selfish genes. They put the words selfish in italics, apparently as mockery. Which makes no sense to me at all. In fact, as far as I can tell, the whole idea about the selfish gene theory is that it'd pretty much predict that something like this would happen. Heck, Dawkins himself has discussed how the transition from being virus to become part of the ordinary DNA can happen. They're also overstating the aspect of junk DNA being junk. Even though they are correct in that much of what we thought had no function do in fact have it, that doesn't change much. You only need one single gene that's really doing nothing at all, and then the "selfish gene" theory will be best suited to explain that, because it states that from the point of view of the gene, that's not junk at all. It's perfectly fine simply being able to split. It's only "junk" from our point of view. I also remember they came with some comment about the "total cost" thing in book 2 (don't remember the chapter, I'm afraid). Now to my knowledge, the general consensus, especially in the gene camp, is that there is a cost associated with everything. Growing big means you require more food. Big brains require longer period of nursing. Etc. etc. They didn't seem to have much regard for the kind of evolution theory that puts the focus on this, so they suggested - before I read book 3 I thought this was a joke, but now I'm not so sure - that f.ex. the modern banana tree allowed itself to be turned into what it is by humans out of "love". And in order to come with this claim without making it seem too outlandish, they talk about this cost-reward thing as if anything decides -beforehand- what should be done, which is a rather typical fallacy when talking about evolution. It doesn't decide anything, new abilities (or improvement of abilities, or degration of abilites) are added, and then only once it's added, you find out if the cost is bigger than the reward. So yeah, I was impressed at first with these books, but that's sort of faded away.
	__________________ Boynott everything! Roxane - My evil feeds on your hatred. I am like a big evil thing that feasts on hatred and probably also fear. Nom nom. Roxane is a ninja star without me. Last edited by Hawk one; 15th April 2007 at 01:47 PM.

15th April 2007, 01:53 PM	#19
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	Originally Posted by Hawk one When they (Ian Stewart and Jack Corben) were discussing the part about the importance of genes (chapter: The secret of life), they made some comments I just couldn't get over. ... So yeah, I was impressed at first with these books, but that's sort of faded away. Interesting. Would this be an example of experts in one field reaching too far into another? Should they have gotten other collaborators if they wanted to go off into other topics?
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

15th April 2007, 02:14 PM	#20
Hawk one Emperor of the Internet Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Right below The Hat. Posts: 12,845	Originally Posted by Jimbo07 Interesting. Would this be an example of experts in one field reaching too far into another? Should they have gotten other collaborators if they wanted to go off into other topics? Could have been if it had been Ian Stewart making the bulk of those chapters, but from what I can see of Jack Cohen's biblography, he seems to be into biology, of which we all know evolution is a pretty damn big and important part. Living embryos, reproduction, parents making parents are three of the books I can see he's written on his own. I don't think it's a big stretch to imagine it was him having the final word on the evolutionary chapters.
	__________________ Boynott everything! Roxane - My evil feeds on your hatred. I am like a big evil thing that feasts on hatred and probably also fear. Nom nom. Roxane is a ninja star without me.

15th April 2007, 02:22 PM	#21
Darat Lackey Administrator / JREF Forum Liaison Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 64,770	Originally Posted by Soapy Sam Gwynn- I think Strata only appeared in print after the success of "The Colour of Magic", so while written earlier, the "other" discworld was published later. ...snip... No Strata's publication pre-dated The Colour of Magic. His pre-discworld stuff was probably re-published after the success of the first couple of Discworld novels. (Gosh this is from long ago.)
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

15th April 2007, 02:29 PM	#22
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	Originally Posted by Darat (Gosh this is from long ago.) Yeah, but this is the first time I am reading the whole thing (as opposed to select passages). Shockingly, I actually did a search on this topic before posting a whole new thread!
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

15th April 2007, 02:31 PM	#23
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	++?????++ Out of Cheese Error. Redo From Start. Mr. Jelly! Mr. Jelly! Error at Address Number 6, Treacle Mine Road. Melon melon melon +++Wahhhhhhh! Mine!+++ +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

15th April 2007, 05:07 PM	#24
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,192	just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK? I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity?
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

15th April 2007, 05:36 PM	#25
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	I can't comment on the States, or overall retail figures, but here in Canada, my sister has almost all of them...
Jimbo07 Illuminator Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,417	__________________ This post approved by your local jPac (Jimbo07 Political Action Committee), also registered with Jimbo07 as the Jimbo07 Equality Rights Knowledge Betterment Action Group. Atoms in supernova explosion get huge business -- Pixie of key

15th April 2007, 06:45 PM	#26
ottle Muse Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Out to Lunch Posts: 528	Originally Posted by andyandy just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK? I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity? I think they're doing pretty well in the U.S., actually. They recently did a bunch of reprints in the U.S. with new covers and new combinations (a combined set of Death books, a set of Rincewind books etc.) They are also starting to show up here as soon as they are available in the U.S., which hasn't always been the case. I no longer have to bug my Brit friends to send them to me... It's nice to see the U.S. finally cotton on to Pratchett's genius
	__________________ a.k.a Masala Skeptic http://www.skepchick.org "There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist." -- Terry Pratchett

15th April 2007, 06:58 PM	#27
grmcdorman Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 857	To add another data point, I and my sister here in Canada have virtually all of the books. (My copy of The Colour of Magic is getting a bit tattered, in fact.) My older son is also a fan, but he just mooches off with my copies. My mother, too, although she usually gets my sister's copies, not mine. I think Canada is a bit more aware of the books, though. P.S. Does the M-word fall under Rule 8? (It certainly would if the Librarian was online )
grmcdorman Muse Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 857

15th April 2007, 09:24 PM	#28
Verde Muse Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Where the jackalopes roam. Posts: 817	Originally Posted by andyandy just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK? I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity? Here in Arizona the principal bookseller, Barnes & Noble, did not have anything by Pratchett some months ago when I went looking for Thud!. By comparison, Borders (Books and Music) had half a shelf-full of his works. The only problem was to get to it one had to pass by a couple of racks of Saliva and her ilk. It irks me that her crap is in the 'Self Improvement' section, whereas Terry's is under the 'Fantasy' banner. It should be the other way around.

16th April 2007, 02:53 AM	#29
Hawk one Emperor of the Internet Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Right below The Hat. Posts: 12,845	Norwegian situation: Most bookstores with a section of untranslated books will have at least a few Pratchett books in them. If it's a decent-sized store, there will usually be his entire collection, give or take a few books that's recently sold out. And it's being translated, though I don't care for that.
	__________________ Boynott everything! Roxane - My evil feeds on your hatred. I am like a big evil thing that feasts on hatred and probably also fear. Nom nom. Roxane is a ninja star without me.

16th April 2007, 04:55 AM	#30
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221	Originally Posted by andyandy just out of interest, how have the discworld books fared outside of the UK? I haven't heard of them being successful state-side, i was wondering why....being as every book is a modern classic that is how about the rest of the world? Is the Discworld a global best-selling export or largely a British eccentricity? Millenium hand and shrimp!?
Ichneumonwasp Guest Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 6,221

16th April 2007, 05:02 AM	#31
Morwen Reality junkie Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Valencia, Spain Posts: 780	In Spain they're quite a big hit, despite the translations being, well, difficult. Much of the wordplay gets lost, as do many references. But each new book is eagerly awaited. Hogfather came out in February, and before that one, Small Gods (biiiiig success, that one, it hits all the right notes with many Spaniards, as you can imagine.) They're not published following any particular order.
	__________________ "In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry, and is generally considered to have been a bad move." -- Douglas Adams "La vida, esa chulería de la materia" -- Emile Ciorán

16th April 2007, 05:36 AM	#32
kleinjahr Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 235	Pratchett's narrativium may be similar in concept to Heinlein's ideas in "The Number of the Beast". What Spider Robinson calls a ficton. That said do remember, that the thing of the thing is all of the thing.
kleinjahr Thinker Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 235

16th April 2007, 06:38 AM	#33
Strider1974 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 155	Pterry is very big in Australia. He has written an Aussie send up for Discworld - The Last Continent and he has done a number of book signing tours. I have seen him twice in the last 3 years. His last trip down under was for the first Australian Discworld convention and Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen were special guests - via video link http://www.ausdwcon.org/detail/show/guest EDIT - I am very keen to see what Sam Raimi does with The Wee Free Men
Strider1974 Thinker Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 155

16th April 2007, 07:23 AM	#34
Gilmar Muse Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: From the desert to the sea. Posts: 564	Pratchett seems to be doing well in the US. There's usually a shelf or two of his books at Borders or B&N. I'm glad we finally caught up with the UK publishing schedule a few years back. For those who want even more Pratchett-related stuff, try http://www.artificer.co.uk/.

16th April 2007, 07:39 AM	#35
Flo Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Massongy, France Posts: 2,793	Pratchett's books have all been translated to French and are available in most bookstores. Translation is not too bad, with many of the puns and jokes rendered into rather clever equivalents.
	__________________ "Let me explain the order of things for you. There's the aristocracy, the upper class, middle class, working class, dumb animals, waiters, creeping things, head lice, people who eat packet soup, and then you." (Chef)