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wollery · 18th April 2007, 06:16 PM

I have a friend in the US who suffers from SAD. They heard about light therapy treatment, and asked me if I knew anything about it, but I had to admit that I didn't.

Do any of you enlightened people know about it? Does it work? If so, where can you get treated? How much does it cost?

All help or advice greatly appreciated.

Dr. Imago · 18th April 2007, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by wollery

I have a friend in the US who suffers from SAD. They heard about light therapy treatment, and asked me if I knew anything about it, but I had to admit that I didn't.

Do any of you enlightened people know about it? Does it work? If so, where can you get treated? How much does it cost?

All help or advice greatly appreciated.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum

wollery · 18th April 2007, 06:48 PM

Okay, so it works.

Thanks.

Now, how does she get treatment, and what does it cost?

Dr. Imago · 18th April 2007, 06:57 PM

From what I understand, these are best used as "alarm clocks" during the months where it is a problem. Some models can be set to turn on gently before you wake up. The blue-spectrum lights seem to work best, and they have to be bright. I believe the theory, IIRC, has to do with dysregulation of melatonin. So, it stands to reason that light therapy would be efficacious.

There are plenty of online resources where these can be purchased. But, the caveat is that she should be properly diagnosed to ascertain whether or not this is garden-variety depression that can be equally effectively treated with other treatment modalities. Likewise, adherence to the light therapy regimen seems to be one of the biggest obstacles to effective treatment for some.

Maybe there are others on the forum who've had personal experiences with this treatment and can be more helpful.

-Dr. Imago

wollery · 18th April 2007, 07:35 PM

Thanks Doc, I'll pass that on.

andyandy · 19th April 2007, 04:02 AM

just wondering,

with the recent advances in LED lighting it should be possible to create natural light inside relatively soon....

Quote:

The most significant changes to the way we light our homes are likely to come when LEDs become cheap and reliable enough to provide ordinary diffuse white light. This is because CFLs, while much more efficient than incandescent bulbs, still only emit around 15 per cent of the electrical energy fed into them as light, or up to 30 per cent in "tube" form. This compares with 30 per cent for existing white LEDs, with a target of up to 70 per cent. "It will be CFLs first, but LEDs may eventually bypass them," says Colin Humphreys, a pioneer of LEDs at the University of Cambridge.

LEDs are semiconductor devices that emit light when a voltage is applied across them. Each LED is typically a stack of five very thin layers of the semiconductor indium-gallium-nitride, separated by gallium nitride layers, and measures just 1 millimetre square. By varying the amounts of indium, engineers can alter the colours produced. For example, 10 per cent indium gives blue light, and 20 per cent gives green. To produce white light, blue LEDs are coated with phosphor, which generates yellow light. This merges with the blue light from the LED to create a somewhat harsh white light.

Already, some LED-based domestic light sources are appearing. Last month Philips unveiled a globe-like lamp based on four LEDs - two red, one blue and one green. By varying the intensity of the LEDs it's possible to create mood lighting in up to 16 million different colours. Launched in the Netherlands, the lamp, called LivingColors, is operated with a simple remote control. Philips stresses that this is a long way from the LED-based "bulb" that people can simply screw into existing sockets. But it's a start.

To produce LEDs that can replace incandescent bulbs, the challenge is to develop devices that create a warmer white light. Humphreys's team and others around the world are tackling this by coating individual LEDs with red, blue and green phosphors. "In principle, we can mimic the quality of sunlight," says Humphreys. "We're not there yet, but we're getting close," he says.

http://environment.newscientist.com/...d=LIPNOMAIIDJG

Would imitation sunlight be enough for SAD? Is it the vitamin D deficiency that causes the problem? Would imitation natural light provide vitamin D?

Dancing David · 19th April 2007, 05:00 AM

Some people with SAD respond well to anti-depressants. Both my brother and sister believe they have SAD, my sister takes ADs year round and uses a 'light box', my brothers just takes ADs seasonaly.

Papermache · 19th April 2007, 06:01 AM

Light therapy works for me. That's merely anecdotal, of course, and I'd suggest looking at the peer reviewed studies. I take ADs year round. Despite that, late winter - early spring was always a difficult time for me. I've used a light box in the morning the winters of 05 - 06 and 06 - 07 with good results. I bought mine from Apollo Health; their website links to research studies. There are many other manufacturers as well.

MortFurd · 19th April 2007, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Imago

From what I understand, these are best used as "alarm clocks" during the months where it is a problem. Some models can be set to turn on gently before you wake up. The blue-spectrum lights seem to work best, and they have to be bright. I believe the theory, IIRC, has to do with dysregulation of melatonin. So, it stands to reason that light therapy would be efficacious.

There are plenty of online resources where these can be purchased. But, the caveat is that she should be properly diagnosed to ascertain whether or not this is garden-variety depression that can be equally effectively treated with other treatment modalities. Likewise, adherence to the light therapy regimen seems to be one of the biggest obstacles to effective treatment for some.

Maybe there are others on the forum who've had personal experiences with this treatment and can be more helpful.

-Dr. Imago

The meta study that I read - and which convinced me to try light therapy for some problems I had - indicated that a half hour "dawn simulation" and a 1 hour light exposure at some time during the day were effective on about the same percentage of people. That's not to say that both are effective on the same people.

There's also the "sticking to it" part. It's easier to have a light go on for half an hour before you would normally get out of bed than it is to sit down in front of a light for an hour sometime during the day.

The meta study indicated that the color was pretty much irrelevant, but the intensity was important. The exposure time was also a factor. Too little was useless, too much was a waste of time for no additional effect.

For my personal experience, I found an hour exposure in the evening to make me actually feel better. I also found that I couldn't maintain that schedule. The dawn simulation wasn't as effective, but I could do it every day so that in the long run I averaged better.

Here's the study I read.

As far as the "light box" itself goes, I used a 500Watt halogen work light. As best I can figure it (exact figures are hard to get for $30 lamps) it puts out around 2500 Lux at 1 yard distance. That study references values from 500Lux up to 10000 Lux, so I'm at least in the ball park.

The lamp on its tripod looks kind of kinky parked by my bed - sort like I'm making amateur porn or something - but it seems to help. I use a digital timer to turn it on automatically in the morning.

I'd rather do a one hour "light bath" everyday, but it doesn't work out. The time that I did maintain that for a week, I felt great. I'd wake up in the morning rested instead of tired, even though the "light bath" would cause me to always wake up at 3 in the morning then doze lightly until the alarm went off.

Personal experience and anecdotes - not very reliable, I know.

Do read the study I linked to, and check around for others. Also, check with a good doctor. Depression is nothing to monkey with. If you've got it, get help.

alfaniner · 19th April 2007, 07:39 AM

You can make this relatively cheaply. I hook it up to an appliance timer as an alarm clock, also.

Make your own light pole for battling the winter blues.

Cuddles · 19th April 2007, 08:30 AM

Taking melatonin at the right point in your circadian cycle can also help.

There's a nice article here about the circadian rythm and light.

MortFurd · 19th April 2007, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

You can make this relatively cheaply. I hook it up to an appliance timer as an alarm clock, also.

Make your own light pole for battling the winter blues.

Or just get one of these. Mine cost less at the local hardware store than the online place. Less than $40 US. There's bound to be similar equipment available in the US for similar prices.
This is the one I use:
light.jpg

Gbob · 19th April 2007, 09:45 AM

Once again, anecdotal evidence but I find a morning pick me up of light therapy has an impact. Now, of course, this could very well be the placebo effect so your mileage may vary.

I keep my light by my computer so if I wake up and it's dark I sit in the light while drinking my cofee and reading e-mail. It's cheap, it seems to be effective, and i don't see a downside to at least trying it for yourself.

Dancing David · 19th April 2007, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Gbob

Once again, anecdotal evidence but I find a morning pick me up of light therapy has an impact. Now, of course, this could very well be the placebo effect so your mileage may vary.

I keep my light by my computer so if I wake up and it's dark I sit in the light while drinking my cofee and reading e-mail. It's cheap, it seems to be effective, and i don't see a downside to at least trying it for yourself.

It has an actual bilogical basis, it is imporatant to get up at the same time everyday.

The circadian cycle is very effected by light levels. it is also important to sleep in the dark.

bruto · 19th April 2007, 08:58 PM

Still in anecdotal mode, my wife has also found that a halogen worklight like Mortfurd's works well. Watch out for sunburn, though. It's better to keep the light indirect if you can. She used to keep it in the bedroom, turn it on in the morning and read for an hour by the light, but recently took up piano, so now she has it in the room with the piano, and combines the light bath with early morning practice.

18th April 2007, 06:16 PM	#1
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,334	SAD treatments? I have a friend in the US who suffers from SAD. They heard about light therapy treatment, and asked me if I knew anything about it, but I had to admit that I didn't. Do any of you enlightened people know about it? Does it work? If so, where can you get treated? How much does it cost? All help or advice greatly appreciated.
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

18th April 2007, 06:43 PM	#2
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,055	Originally Posted by wollery I have a friend in the US who suffers from SAD. They heard about light therapy treatment, and asked me if I knew anything about it, but I had to admit that I didn't. Do any of you enlightened people know about it? Does it work? If so, where can you get treated? How much does it cost? All help or advice greatly appreciated. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_DocSum
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,055	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

18th April 2007, 06:48 PM	#3
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,334	Okay, so it works. Thanks. Now, how does she get treatment, and what does it cost?
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

18th April 2007, 06:57 PM	#4
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,055	From what I understand, these are best used as "alarm clocks" during the months where it is a problem. Some models can be set to turn on gently before you wake up. The blue-spectrum lights seem to work best, and they have to be bright. I believe the theory, IIRC, has to do with dysregulation of melatonin. So, it stands to reason that light therapy would be efficacious. There are plenty of online resources where these can be purchased. But, the caveat is that she should be properly diagnosed to ascertain whether or not this is garden-variety depression that can be equally effectively treated with other treatment modalities. Likewise, adherence to the light therapy regimen seems to be one of the biggest obstacles to effective treatment for some. Maybe there are others on the forum who've had personal experiences with this treatment and can be more helpful. -Dr. Imago
Dr. Imago Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 2,055	__________________ DISCLAIMER: The above post is for informational and/or educational purposes only. It is not a substitute for the professional judgment of, in direct consultation with, a health care professional in diagnosing, treating, and/or preventing any disease or disorder. It is not to be construed as individualized medical advice, diagnosis, or a treatment recommendation. Your reliance upon the information obtained or used by you at, through, or as a result of this post is solely at your own risk.

18th April 2007, 07:35 PM	#5
wollery Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs! Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Land of Eternal Hope Posts: 10,334	Thanks Doc, I'll pass that on.
	__________________ "You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad "Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin

19th April 2007, 04:02 AM	#6
andyandy anthropomorphic ape Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: up a tree Posts: 8,213	just wondering, with the recent advances in LED lighting it should be possible to create natural light inside relatively soon.... Quote: The most significant changes to the way we light our homes are likely to come when LEDs become cheap and reliable enough to provide ordinary diffuse white light. This is because CFLs, while much more efficient than incandescent bulbs, still only emit around 15 per cent of the electrical energy fed into them as light, or up to 30 per cent in "tube" form. This compares with 30 per cent for existing white LEDs, with a target of up to 70 per cent. "It will be CFLs first, but LEDs may eventually bypass them," says Colin Humphreys, a pioneer of LEDs at the University of Cambridge. LEDs are semiconductor devices that emit light when a voltage is applied across them. Each LED is typically a stack of five very thin layers of the semiconductor indium-gallium-nitride, separated by gallium nitride layers, and measures just 1 millimetre square. By varying the amounts of indium, engineers can alter the colours produced. For example, 10 per cent indium gives blue light, and 20 per cent gives green. To produce white light, blue LEDs are coated with phosphor, which generates yellow light. This merges with the blue light from the LED to create a somewhat harsh white light. Already, some LED-based domestic light sources are appearing. Last month Philips unveiled a globe-like lamp based on four LEDs - two red, one blue and one green. By varying the intensity of the LEDs it's possible to create mood lighting in up to 16 million different colours. Launched in the Netherlands, the lamp, called LivingColors, is operated with a simple remote control. Philips stresses that this is a long way from the LED-based "bulb" that people can simply screw into existing sockets. But it's a start. To produce LEDs that can replace incandescent bulbs, the challenge is to develop devices that create a warmer white light. Humphreys's team and others around the world are tackling this by coating individual LEDs with red, blue and green phosphors. "In principle, we can mimic the quality of sunlight," says Humphreys. "We're not there yet, but we're getting close," he says. http://environment.newscientist.com/...d=LIPNOMAIIDJG Would imitation sunlight be enough for SAD? Is it the vitamin D deficiency that causes the problem? Would imitation natural light provide vitamin D?
	__________________ "Contentment is found in the music of Bach, the books of Tolstoy and the equations of Dirac, not at the wheel of a BMW or the aisles of Harvey Nicks."

19th April 2007, 05:00 AM	#7
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Some people with SAD respond well to anti-depressants. Both my brother and sister believe they have SAD, my sister takes ADs year round and uses a 'light box', my brothers just takes ADs seasonaly.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

19th April 2007, 06:01 AM	#8
Papermache Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 159	Light therapy works for me. That's merely anecdotal, of course, and I'd suggest looking at the peer reviewed studies. I take ADs year round. Despite that, late winter - early spring was always a difficult time for me. I've used a light box in the morning the winters of 05 - 06 and 06 - 07 with good results. I bought mine from Apollo Health; their website links to research studies. There are many other manufacturers as well.
Papermache Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 159

19th April 2007, 06:48 AM	#9
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by Dr. Imago From what I understand, these are best used as "alarm clocks" during the months where it is a problem. Some models can be set to turn on gently before you wake up. The blue-spectrum lights seem to work best, and they have to be bright. I believe the theory, IIRC, has to do with dysregulation of melatonin. So, it stands to reason that light therapy would be efficacious. There are plenty of online resources where these can be purchased. But, the caveat is that she should be properly diagnosed to ascertain whether or not this is garden-variety depression that can be equally effectively treated with other treatment modalities. Likewise, adherence to the light therapy regimen seems to be one of the biggest obstacles to effective treatment for some. Maybe there are others on the forum who've had personal experiences with this treatment and can be more helpful. -Dr. Imago The meta study that I read - and which convinced me to try light therapy for some problems I had - indicated that a half hour "dawn simulation" and a 1 hour light exposure at some time during the day were effective on about the same percentage of people. That's not to say that both are effective on the same people. There's also the "sticking to it" part. It's easier to have a light go on for half an hour before you would normally get out of bed than it is to sit down in front of a light for an hour sometime during the day. The meta study indicated that the color was pretty much irrelevant, but the intensity was important. The exposure time was also a factor. Too little was useless, too much was a waste of time for no additional effect. For my personal experience, I found an hour exposure in the evening to make me actually feel better. I also found that I couldn't maintain that schedule. The dawn simulation wasn't as effective, but I could do it every day so that in the long run I averaged better. Here's the study I read. As far as the "light box" itself goes, I used a 500Watt halogen work light. As best I can figure it (exact figures are hard to get for $30 lamps) it puts out around 2500 Lux at 1 yard distance. That study references values from 500Lux up to 10000 Lux, so I'm at least in the ball park. The lamp on its tripod looks kind of kinky parked by my bed - sort like I'm making amateur porn or something - but it seems to help. I use a digital timer to turn it on automatically in the morning. I'd rather do a one hour "light bath" everyday, but it doesn't work out. The time that I did maintain that for a week, I felt great. I'd wake up in the morning rested instead of tired, even though the "light bath" would cause me to always wake up at 3 in the morning then doze lightly until the alarm went off. Personal experience and anecdotes - not very reliable, I know. Do read the study I linked to, and check around for others. Also, check with a good doctor. Depression is nothing to monkey with. If you've got it, get help.

19th April 2007, 07:39 AM	#10
alfaniner Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 11,467	You can make this relatively cheaply. I hook it up to an appliance timer as an alarm clock, also. Make your own light pole for battling the winter blues.
	__________________ Science doesn't lie.

19th April 2007, 08:30 AM	#11
Cuddles Decoy Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: A magical land full of pink fluffy sheeps and bunnies Posts: 16,676	Taking melatonin at the right point in your circadian cycle can also help. There's a nice article here about the circadian rythm and light.
	__________________ I am not a little teapot.

19th April 2007, 08:57 AM	#12
MortFurd Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: An American in Germany Posts: 1,975	Originally Posted by alfaniner You can make this relatively cheaply. I hook it up to an appliance timer as an alarm clock, also. Make your own light pole for battling the winter blues. Or just get one of these. Mine cost less at the local hardware store than the online place. Less than $40 US. There's bound to be similar equipment available in the US for similar prices. This is the one I use: light.jpg

19th April 2007, 09:45 AM	#13
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94	Once again, anecdotal evidence but I find a morning pick me up of light therapy has an impact. Now, of course, this could very well be the placebo effect so your mileage may vary. I keep my light by my computer so if I wake up and it's dark I sit in the light while drinking my cofee and reading e-mail. It's cheap, it seems to be effective, and i don't see a downside to at least trying it for yourself.
Gbob Scholar Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 94

19th April 2007, 11:35 AM	#14
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,931	Originally Posted by Gbob Once again, anecdotal evidence but I find a morning pick me up of light therapy has an impact. Now, of course, this could very well be the placebo effect so your mileage may vary. I keep my light by my computer so if I wake up and it's dark I sit in the light while drinking my cofee and reading e-mail. It's cheap, it seems to be effective, and i don't see a downside to at least trying it for yourself. It has an actual bilogical basis, it is imporatant to get up at the same time everyday. The circadian cycle is very effected by light levels. it is also important to sleep in the dark.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

19th April 2007, 08:58 PM	#15
bruto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy Posts: 11,261	Still in anecdotal mode, my wife has also found that a halogen worklight like Mortfurd's works well. Watch out for sunburn, though. It's better to keep the light indirect if you can. She used to keep it in the bedroom, turn it on in the morning and read for an hour by the light, but recently took up piano, so now she has it in the room with the piano, and combines the light bath with early morning practice.
	__________________ "Sir, I have found you an argument; but I am not obliged to find you an understanding.(Samuel Johnson) The gods are less for their love of praise....(Wendell Berry)