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shemp · 7th May 2007, 05:06 PM

For many years, Kit Carson was portrayed as a Hero of the Old West by most historians, as well as in the popular press. In recent years, his image has taken a beating, with some now considering him to be little more than an illiterate deranged genocidalist. I haven't read a lot about him, but after reading his Wikipedia page I tend more toward the latter, though of course I'm judging him by today's standards. Can anyone here point me toward a fair and balanced biography of the man?

strathmeyer · 7th May 2007, 06:23 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_Carson

If I read the Wikipedia article and dismiss everything that is a direct anecdote, I can believe he wasn't so bad.

ImaginalDisc · 9th May 2007, 01:03 PM

Kit Carson, steaming pile of excrement, that's my conclusion anyhow. The PBS biography is short, and doesn't gloss over his war crimes.

Quote:

Carson played a prominent and memorable role in the Civil War in New Mexico. He helped organize the New Mexico volunteer infantry, which saw action at Valverde in 1862. Most of his military actions, however, were directed against the Navajo Indians, many of whom had refused to be confined upon a distant reservation set up by the government. Beginning in 1863 Carson waged a brutal economic war against the Navajo, marching through the heart of their territory to destroy their crops, orchards and livestock. When Utes, Pueblos, Hopis and Zunis, who for centuries had been prey to Navajo raiders, took advantage of their traditional enemy's weakness by following the Americans onto the warpath, the Navajo were unable to defend themselves. In 1864 most surrendered to Carson, who forced nearly 8,000 Navajo men, women and children to take what came to be called the "Long Walk" of 300 miles from Arizona to Fort Sumner, New Mexico, where they remained in disease-ridden confinement until 1868.

More on The Long Walk.

hgc · 9th May 2007, 01:14 PM

The most I know of Kit Carson is that he's a character in the novel Death Comes for the Archbishop, by Willa Cather from 1928. He's a friend to the priest who is the title character. Cather makes mention of his less savory aspects, but treats him as a heroic character.

LawnOven · 9th May 2007, 01:16 PM

Ah Kit Carson, he was a popular dime novel hero.

shemp · 9th May 2007, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc

Kit Carson, steaming pile of excrement, that's my conclusion anyhow. The PBS biography is short, and doesn't gloss over his war crimes.

More on The Long Walk.

Interesting. Not to absolve him of responsibility for his actions, but it seems possible that Carson was (by the standards of his time and place) a somewhat decent man until he met John C. Fremont; after he became employed by Fremont, he seems to have become more aggressive in his dealings with Native Americans and Mexicans. My opinion of Fremont is that he was a bastard (both literally [he was born illegitimately] and figuratively). Two incidents from the above link are rather interesting, and make me wonder just what sort of influence Fremont was on him and what role Fremont had in shaping Carson's personality later in life:

Quote:

Following a May 9, 1846, Modoc Indian attack on his expedition party, Frémont chose to attack a Klamath Indian fishing village named Dokdokwas, at the junction of the Williamson River and Klamath Lake, which took place May 10, 1846. The action completely destroyed the village, and involved the massacre of women and children. After the burning of the village, Carson was nearly killed by a Klamath warrior later that day: his gun misfired, and the warrior drew to fire a poison arrow; but Frémont, seeing Carson's predicament, trampled the warrior with his horse. Carson stated felt that he owed Frémont his life due to this incident.

Quote:

On the later date of June 28, 1846, Frémont intercepted three Mexican men crossing the San Francisco Bay and landing near San Quentin. Frémont provided Carson with indirect and ambiguous orders to execute these innocent three men in revenge for the deaths of the two Americans, which Carson promptly carried out. Carson at first asked Fremont if he should take the men prisoner. Frémont's plan was otherwise: "I have no use for prisoners, do your duty," was the response. When Carson hesitated Fremont yelled, "Mr. Carson, your duty," to which Carson then complied by murdering Jose R. Berreyesa and his newphews, Ramon and Fransciso De Haro, the nineteen year old twin sons of Francisco De Haro, the first Alcalde of San Francisco, near present-day San Rafael. The murder of these popular Californianos hindered Fremont's political career and prevented him from being the first American governor of California, a post he coveted. Writing about the murders a half-century later, the historian Robert A. Thompsen noted, "Californians cannot speak of it down to this day without intense feeling."

In any case, as his life progressed he seems to have become more violent, until he reached the point where he participated in outright genocide. In today's world he'd be tried for crimes against humanity.

sackett · 10th May 2007, 12:32 PM

Kit's reputation has been taking a beating for several generations, off and on, but even at his most despicable he doesn’t seem as evil as some. Compared to Col Chivington or Liver-Eatin' Johnson, he wasn't so bad: often as not, he’d let people live. I think that even George Custer cut more hair.

Let’s remember how different the Old West was from our time. By that I mean, how much less bloodthirsty, ruthless, brutal, and absolute an era it was.

Genocide? Genocide is a term we throw around rather too much, even if we can be forgiven for our preoccupation with it. The sentiments that give rise to it were certainly present in the Old West, but incidents of actual sustained and purposeful annhilitation of an entire people are hard to find. In fact, I don’t know of any.

Indians and Indian-fighters alike lived in an atmosphere -- a world -- of chronic savage warfare. There was less difference between the two sides than I care for, but let’s remember this: Defeated whites simply could not surrender to Indians; defeated Indians could surrender even to a hard hombre like Kit and expect to survive.

The Central Scrutinizer · 10th May 2007, 02:44 PM

I vote "western hero". Because he killed Indians, and Indians were the bad guys. Or at least they were when I was a kid. No body wanted to be the Indians. Always the cowboys. So we made my friend Drew's younger brother - Todd - the Indian. Otherwise we wouldn't let him play with us.

Mephisto · 11th May 2007, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer

I vote "western hero". Because he killed Indians, and Indians were the bad guys. Or at least they were when I was a kid. No body wanted to be the Indians. Always the cowboys. So we made my friend Drew's younger brother - Todd - the Indian. Otherwise we wouldn't let him play with us.

The really, really sad part about that is that I knew several "Indian" children who also didn't want to be Indians. To think they'd have to wait for friggin Kevin Costner's only decent movie to see their people as heros.

In answer to Shemp's question; would you like a fair & balanced biography written from the Native American's side - don't hold your breath.

If you really want to find out about American heros, you might check out this HBO adaptation of Dee Brown's book: http://www.hbo.com/films/burymyheart...ategory4_show1

LawnOven · 11th May 2007, 09:31 PM

I scanned this and restored it for work. Seemed relevant for some reason. He was an American hero when being an American hero meant being awesome at killing Indians. The stories exaggerated how awesome he was at killing Indians, not tried to white wash it.

Kopji · 11th May 2007, 10:15 PM

I think that Shemp has it mostly right.

Even today the Navajos can have a dislike of Kit Carson and the Utes, but one of the local 'holy mountains' is proudly named 'Fremont', I'm sure after THE Fremont. Not only don't the good and bad guys wear white and black hats, the people on both sides seem to consist of rather fuzzy gray moral material.

mhaze · 17th May 2007, 08:24 AM

Without delving into the specifics of Carson, I would strongly urge anyone interested in a subject like this to read the original source documents, and not recent interpretations. Thanks to the Internet, many of these documents are now available.

ZirconBlue · 17th May 2007, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

The really, really sad part about that is that I knew several "Indian" children who also didn't want to be Indians. To think they'd have to wait for friggin Kevin Costner's only decent movie to see their people as heros.

I don't recall any Indians in No Way Out. Or did you mean Silverado?

EeneyMinnieMoe · 19th May 2007, 01:30 PM

Western hero?

You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry.

ZirconBlue · 19th May 2007, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Western hero?

You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry.

Sure you can. It just depends on who the particular people are.

fuelair · 19th May 2007, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

Sure you can. It just depends on who the particular people are.

and what they did, and why they did it (I think pre-Vader did the right thing to avenge his mother - but should have been shotgunned like a mad dog later at the Jedi academy. The two are completely unrelated in any healthy mind (one of the reasons I'm not a giant fan of the second set of SW films).

Mephisto · 20th May 2007, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by ZirconBlue

I don't recall any Indians in No Way Out. Or did you mean Silverado?

Dont be silly, you know I meant The Postman (or was it Waterworld?).

Mephisto · 20th May 2007, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Western hero?

You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry.

Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy?

fuelair · 20th May 2007, 09:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy?

Samson, Joshua, David, Cuchulain, MacArthur, Sgt. York, Lawrence of Arabia,
Frances Marion?

EeneyMinnieMoe · 20th May 2007, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy?

Case in point- they're no heros of mine. Colorful characters, yes, had interesting lives, yes, admirable qualities, yes, but they're no heros.

hgc · 21st May 2007, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy?

As far as I know, Audie Murphy only ever killed other soldiers, in combat, who were trying to kill him. I'd give him a pass in the questioning-the-heroics-of-killers game.

And he wasn't a half-bad movie cowboy either.

Darth Rotor · 21st May 2007, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe

Western hero?

You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry.

So, let's see, Sergeant Alvin York wasn't a hero?

DR

hgc · 21st May 2007, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

So, let's see, Sergeant Alvin York wasn't a hero?

DR

First of all, York is played by Gary Cooper in the movie. It doesn't get more heroic than that. I believe that York is considered a hero more for capturing a large number of enemy single-handedly than for killing them.

sackett · 21st May 2007, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mephisto

Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy?

I'm not sure that Buffalo Bill ever killed anybody. I used to believe that he rubbed out Yellow Hair, but quite recently I read a supposed direct quote of Cody's: "Hell, I never shot him! For all I know, he died of old age!" I hope not; Yellow hair needed rubbing out.

Audie Murphy got to be a hero by doing nothing but kill people. He wasn't good for anything else. Man was Cuchalain to the life.

hgc · 21st May 2007, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Audie Murphy got to be a hero by doing nothing but kill people. He wasn't good for anything else. Man was Cuchalain to the life.

The business end of this six-shooter says spell that Cúchulainn.

Lensman · 3rd June 2007, 04:48 PM

From everything I've read & heard about him, Custer started out as a friend & champion for the Native Americans, but his political ambitions got the better of him & he became their worst enemy. He also became his own - who but a blithering idiot would leave behind the weapons that the Sioux most feared & then disobey his CO's orders & attack a superior enemy force in order to further his own ambitions?

7th May 2007, 05:06 PM	#1
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,970	Kit Carson: Western Hero or Genocidalist? For many years, Kit Carson was portrayed as a Hero of the Old West by most historians, as well as in the popular press. In recent years, his image has taken a beating, with some now considering him to be little more than an illiterate deranged genocidalist. I haven't read a lot about him, but after reading his Wikipedia page I tend more toward the latter, though of course I'm judging him by today's standards. Can anyone here point me toward a fair and balanced biography of the man?
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

9th May 2007, 01:03 PM	#3
ImaginalDisc Proactive Untwister of Octagonal Hippopotamus Pants Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 10,225	Kit Carson, steaming pile of excrement, that's my conclusion anyhow. The PBS biography is short, and doesn't gloss over his war crimes. Quote: Carson played a prominent and memorable role in the Civil War in New Mexico. He helped organize the New Mexico volunteer infantry, which saw action at Valverde in 1862. Most of his military actions, however, were directed against the Navajo Indians, many of whom had refused to be confined upon a distant reservation set up by the government. Beginning in 1863 Carson waged a brutal economic war against the Navajo, marching through the heart of their territory to destroy their crops, orchards and livestock. When Utes, Pueblos, Hopis and Zunis, who for centuries had been prey to Navajo raiders, took advantage of their traditional enemy's weakness by following the Americans onto the warpath, the Navajo were unable to defend themselves. In 1864 most surrendered to Carson, who forced nearly 8,000 Navajo men, women and children to take what came to be called the "Long Walk" of 300 miles from Arizona to Fort Sumner, New Mexico, where they remained in disease-ridden confinement until 1868. More on The Long Walk.
	__________________ Definition: 'Love' is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope. Statement: This definition, I am told, is subject to interpretation. Obviously, love is a matter of odds. Not many meatbags could make such a shot, and fewer would derive love from it. Yet for me, love is knowing your target, putting them in your targeting reticle, and together, achieving a singular purpose, against statistically long odds. *-HK-47* Last edited by ImaginalDisc; 9th May 2007 at 01:06 PM.

9th May 2007, 01:14 PM	#4
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,140	The most I know of Kit Carson is that he's a character in the novel Death Comes for the Archbishop, by Willa Cather from 1928. He's a friend to the priest who is the title character. Cather makes mention of his less savory aspects, but treats him as a heroic character.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

9th May 2007, 01:16 PM	#5
LawnOven robot Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,306	Ah Kit Carson, he was a popular dime novel hero.
	__________________ Principia Discordia

9th May 2007, 02:21 PM	#6
shemp Timothy, Timothy, where on earth did you go? Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: trapped in a cave-in with Joe Posts: 12,970	Originally Posted by ImaginalDisc Kit Carson, steaming pile of excrement, that's my conclusion anyhow. The PBS biography is short, and doesn't gloss over his war crimes. More on The Long Walk. Interesting. Not to absolve him of responsibility for his actions, but it seems possible that Carson was (by the standards of his time and place) a somewhat decent man until he met John C. Fremont; after he became employed by Fremont, he seems to have become more aggressive in his dealings with Native Americans and Mexicans. My opinion of Fremont is that he was a bastard (both literally [he was born illegitimately] and figuratively). Two incidents from the above link are rather interesting, and make me wonder just what sort of influence Fremont was on him and what role Fremont had in shaping Carson's personality later in life: Quote: Following a May 9, 1846, Modoc Indian attack on his expedition party, Frémont chose to attack a Klamath Indian fishing village named Dokdokwas, at the junction of the Williamson River and Klamath Lake, which took place May 10, 1846. The action completely destroyed the village, and involved the massacre of women and children. After the burning of the village, Carson was nearly killed by a Klamath warrior later that day: his gun misfired, and the warrior drew to fire a poison arrow; but Frémont, seeing Carson's predicament, trampled the warrior with his horse. Carson stated felt that he owed Frémont his life due to this incident. Quote: On the later date of June 28, 1846, Frémont intercepted three Mexican men crossing the San Francisco Bay and landing near San Quentin. Frémont provided Carson with indirect and ambiguous orders to execute these innocent three men in revenge for the deaths of the two Americans, which Carson promptly carried out. Carson at first asked Fremont if he should take the men prisoner. Frémont's plan was otherwise: "I have no use for prisoners, do your duty," was the response. When Carson hesitated Fremont yelled, "Mr. Carson, your duty," to which Carson then complied by murdering Jose R. Berreyesa and his newphews, Ramon and Fransciso De Haro, the nineteen year old twin sons of Francisco De Haro, the first Alcalde of San Francisco, near present-day San Rafael. The murder of these popular Californianos hindered Fremont's political career and prevented him from being the first American governor of California, a post he coveted. Writing about the murders a half-century later, the historian Robert A. Thompsen noted, "Californians cannot speak of it down to this day without intense feeling." In any case, as his life progressed he seems to have become more violent, until he reached the point where he participated in outright genocide. In today's world he'd be tried for crimes against humanity.
	__________________ Church on Sunday, sleep and nod Tryin' to duck the wrath of God Preacher's fillin' us with fright Tryin' to tell us what he thinks is right He really got to be some kind of nut (I can't use it!) Tryin' to make it real - compared to what?

7th May 2007, 06:23 PM	#2
strathmeyer seriously unable to be serious Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Posts: 2,382	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kit_Carson If I read the Wikipedia article and dismiss everything that is a direct anecdote, I can believe he wasn't so bad.

10th May 2007, 12:32 PM	#7
sackett Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 3,659	Kit's reputation has been taking a beating for several generations, off and on, but even at his most despicable he doesn’t seem as evil as some. Compared to Col Chivington or Liver-Eatin' Johnson, he wasn't so bad: often as not, he’d let people live. I think that even George Custer cut more hair. Let’s remember how different the Old West was from our time. By that I mean, how much less bloodthirsty, ruthless, brutal, and absolute an era it was. Genocide? Genocide is a term we throw around rather too much, even if we can be forgiven for our preoccupation with it. The sentiments that give rise to it were certainly present in the Old West, but incidents of actual sustained and purposeful annhilitation of an entire people are hard to find. In fact, I don’t know of any. Indians and Indian-fighters alike lived in an atmosphere -- a world -- of chronic savage warfare. There was less difference between the two sides than I care for, but let’s remember this: Defeated whites simply could not surrender to Indians; defeated Indians could surrender even to a hard hombre like Kit and expect to survive.
	__________________ Dyslexic and prond!

10th May 2007, 02:44 PM	#8
The Central Scrutinizer Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The White Zone Posts: 42,586	I vote "western hero". Because he killed Indians, and Indians were the bad guys. Or at least they were when I was a kid. No body wanted to be the Indians. Always the cowboys. So we made my friend Drew's younger brother - Todd - the Indian. Otherwise we wouldn't let him play with us.
	__________________ If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

11th May 2007, 08:00 AM	#9
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer I vote "western hero". Because he killed Indians, and Indians were the bad guys. Or at least they were when I was a kid. No body wanted to be the Indians. Always the cowboys. So we made my friend Drew's younger brother - Todd - the Indian. Otherwise we wouldn't let him play with us. The really, really sad part about that is that I knew several "Indian" children who also didn't want to be Indians. To think they'd have to wait for friggin Kevin Costner's only decent movie to see their people as heros. In answer to Shemp's question; would you like a fair & balanced biography written from the Native American's side - don't hold your breath. If you really want to find out about American heros, you might check out this HBO adaptation of Dee Brown's book: http://www.hbo.com/films/burymyheart...ategory4_show1
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi Last edited by Mephisto; 11th May 2007 at 08:02 AM.

11th May 2007, 09:31 PM	#10
LawnOven robot Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,306	I scanned this and restored it for work. Seemed relevant for some reason. He was an American hero when being an American hero meant being awesome at killing Indians. The stories exaggerated how awesome he was at killing Indians, not tried to white wash it.
	__________________ Principia Discordia Last edited by LawnOven; 11th May 2007 at 10:03 PM.

11th May 2007, 10:15 PM	#11
Kopji Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Mogollon Rim Posts: 7,710	I think that Shemp has it mostly right. Even today the Navajos can have a dislike of Kit Carson and the Utes, but one of the local 'holy mountains' is proudly named 'Fremont', I'm sure after THE Fremont. Not only don't the good and bad guys wear white and black hats, the people on both sides seem to consist of rather fuzzy gray moral material.

17th May 2007, 08:24 AM	#12
mhaze Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woo*(+-1.10)^20=AGWwoo Posts: 15,400	Without delving into the specifics of Carson, I would strongly urge anyone interested in a subject like this to read the original source documents, and not recent interpretations. Thanks to the Internet, many of these documents are now available.

17th May 2007, 11:37 AM	#13
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wilson, North Carolina, USA, Earth Posts: 11,407	Originally Posted by Mephisto The really, really sad part about that is that I knew several "Indian" children who also didn't want to be Indians. To think they'd have to wait for friggin Kevin Costner's only decent movie to see their people as heros. I don't recall any Indians in No Way Out. Or did you mean Silverado?
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

19th May 2007, 01:30 PM	#14
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,660	Western hero? You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry.

19th May 2007, 01:33 PM	#15
ZirconBlue Sole Survivor of L-Town Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Wilson, North Carolina, USA, Earth Posts: 11,407	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe Western hero? You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry. Sure you can. It just depends on who the particular people are.
	__________________ Religion and sex are powerplays. Manipulate the people for the money they pay. Selling skin, selling God The numbers look the same on their credit cards.

19th May 2007, 01:45 PM	#16
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,318	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue Sure you can. It just depends on who the particular people are. and what they did, and why they did it (I think pre-Vader did the right thing to avenge his mother - but should have been shotgunned like a mad dog later at the Jedi academy. The two are completely unrelated in any healthy mind (one of the reasons I'm not a giant fan of the second set of SW films).
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,318

20th May 2007, 08:35 AM	#17
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by ZirconBlue I don't recall any Indians in No Way Out. Or did you mean Silverado? Dont be silly, you know I meant The Postman (or was it Waterworld?).
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

20th May 2007, 08:40 AM	#18
Mephisto Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a state of disbelief Posts: 6,065	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe Western hero? You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry. Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy?
	__________________ "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?" Mahatma Gandhi

20th May 2007, 09:13 AM	#19
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,318	Originally Posted by Mephisto Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy? Samson, Joshua, David, Cuchulain, MacArthur, Sgt. York, Lawrence of Arabia, Frances Marion?
fuelair Cythraul Enfys Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,318

20th May 2007, 02:47 PM	#20
EeneyMinnieMoe Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 6,660	Originally Posted by Mephisto Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy? Case in point- they're no heros of mine. Colorful characters, yes, had interesting lives, yes, admirable qualities, yes, but they're no heros.

21st May 2007, 08:58 AM	#21
hgc Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 13,140	Originally Posted by Mephisto Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy? As far as I know, Audie Murphy only ever killed other soldiers, in combat, who were trying to kill him. I'd give him a pass in the questioning-the-heroics-of-killers game. And he wasn't a half-bad movie cowboy either.
	__________________ Bowel-shaking earthquakes of doubt and remorse assail him and wail him with monster truck force. - Cake, The Distance Was there a second singer on the grassy Knowles? - Stephen Colbert

21st May 2007, 10:32 AM	#22
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rat cheer Posts: 34,378	Originally Posted by EeneyMinnieMoe Western hero? You can't be a hero for killing people. Sorry. So, let's see, Sergeant Alvin York wasn't a hero? DR
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

21st May 2007, 12:26 PM	#24
sackett Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 3,659	Originally Posted by Mephisto Sure you can, what about Buffalo Bill, George Custer, Davy Crockett, Sam Houston, Jim Bowie, George Patton and Audie Murphy? I'm not sure that Buffalo Bill ever killed anybody. I used to believe that he rubbed out Yellow Hair, but quite recently I read a supposed direct quote of Cody's: "Hell, I never shot him! For all I know, he died of old age!" I hope not; Yellow hair needed rubbing out. Audie Murphy got to be a hero by doing nothing but kill people. He wasn't good for anything else. Man was Cuchalain to the life.
	__________________ Dyslexic and prond!

3rd June 2007, 04:48 PM	#26
Lensman Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Caerphilly Posts: 1,413	From everything I've read & heard about him, Custer started out as a friend & champion for the Native Americans, but his political ambitions got the better of him & he became their worst enemy. He also became his own - who but a blithering idiot would leave behind the weapons that the Sioux most feared & then disobey his CO's orders & attack a superior enemy force in order to further his own ambitions?