JREF Homepage Swift Blog Events Calendar $1 Million Paranormal Challenge The Amaz!ng Meeting Useful Links Support Us
James Randi Educational Foundation JREF Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   JREF Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
Click Here To Donate

Notices


Welcome to the JREF Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.

Reply
Old 9th September 2008, 08:25 AM   #121
paximperium
Penultimate Amazing
 
paximperium's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple
Posts: 10,727
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I'll keep a few salt packets on hand
Are you sure it is worth putting your bladder through such a work out?
__________________
"The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett
paximperium is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 08:52 AM   #122
Hellbound
Abiogenic Spongiform
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,821
Originally Posted by paximperium View Post
Are you sure it is worth putting your bladder through such a work out?
Quite frankly, I don't expect the challenge to be taken up.

However, if we can agree to a protocol, and have proper legal documentation drawn up, sure, I can do that.
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 08:56 AM   #123
Crundy
Critical Thinker
 
Crundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 475
For what? The one homeopath you are addressing will claim it failed because of [insert dumb reason here], and every other homeopath will ignore the results of the experiment.
__________________
"You see, that is why we never do double-blind testing anymore. It never works!" - Chiropractor
Crundy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 08:59 AM   #124
paximperium
Penultimate Amazing
 
paximperium's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple
Posts: 10,727
Sacrifice Your Bladder For Science
__________________
"The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett
paximperium is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 09:11 AM   #125
Hellbound
Abiogenic Spongiform
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,821
Originally Posted by Crundy View Post
For what? The one homeopath you are addressing will claim it failed because of [insert dumb reason here], and every other homeopath will ignore the results of the experiment.
Really, I don't care what he claims, or what other homeopaths think (in regards to this test, ina nay case). This is why I plan to have a legal document drawn up, so when the test fails, I get $114,000 to pay off my house

If, as I expect, he fails to show up here again and take up the challenge, then I will have shown that his belief in homeopathy is, most likely, lip service. He knows the test will fail, and thus will refuse the challenge for whatever reason.
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 09:29 AM   #126
xinit
Muse
 
xinit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
If, as I expect, he fails to show up here again and take up the challenge, then I will have shown that his belief in homeopathy is, most likely, lip service. He knows the test will fail, and thus will refuse the challenge for whatever reason.
When it comes right down to it, it's almost like they don't want to trust their own 'medicine'...

I still want one homeopath who's willing to do a simple Malaria exposure....
xinit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 09:59 AM   #127
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Falconer, NY
Posts: 11,302
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Really, I don't care what he claims, or what other homeopaths think (in regards to this test, ina nay case). This is why I plan to have a legal document drawn up, so when the test fails, I get $114,000 to pay off my house

If, as I expect, he fails to show up here again and take up the challenge, then I will have shown that his belief in homeopathy is, most likely, lip service. He knows the test will fail, and thus will refuse the challenge for whatever reason.
Didn't he say that he isn't a homoepath? I mean, I don't believe he is really a doctor but I'm not sure it is needed to direct a challenge at him.
tyr_13 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 10:17 AM   #128
PixyMisa
Persnickety Insect
 
PixyMisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
Posts: 15,268
Originally Posted by SkeptiChick View Post
I've been curious about that too.

How, exactly, does one make a solution that has less than 0% of something?
Clearly, you either start with less than no water and dissolve a positive amount of the solute in it, or start with less than no solute and dissolve it in a positive amount of water.

It's basic stuff; should have been covered in your Utter Nonsense 101 course.
__________________
Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu
What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO
PixyMisa is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 10:18 AM   #129
drkitten
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Wits' End
Posts: 21,643
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Didn't he say that he isn't a homoepath?
He did.

We are, however, under no obligation to believe it. His use of the word "allopath" is a flare-lit tipoff; almost no one who isn't deeply steeped in homeopathy uses that word. Whether he's a practicing homeopathic witch-doctor or merely a fellow-traveler is almost irrelevant; I'm not a physician, but I would be happy to accept a $100,000 bet that a suitably chosen modern medicine demonstrably does what it says it can do on the label.
drkitten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 10:20 AM   #130
tesscaline
Illuminator
 
tesscaline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 4,037
Originally Posted by PixyMisa View Post
Clearly, you either start with less than no water and dissolve a positive amount of the solute in it, or start with less than no solute and dissolve it in a positive amount of water.

It's basic stuff; should have been covered in your Utter Nonsense 101 course.
I knew I should have paid more attention in that class instead of sleeping through it!
tesscaline is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 10:49 AM   #131
Baron Samedi
Critical Thinker
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada
Posts: 488
Originally Posted by SkeptiChick View Post
I've been curious about that too.

How, exactly, does one make a solution that has less than 0% of something?
Easy peasy. For example, yesterday I had 5 birds in my back yard. Today, I had none. Therefore, a "solution" of 1 hungry cat per back yard is equal to -5 birds per back yard. Ergo, homeopathy works!

On that note, I also have some great real estate for sale in Florida, limited time offer! It has to be sold by a Nigerian prince for a discount, but shhh, don't tell anybody, it's top secret.
Baron Samedi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 11:44 AM   #132
tesscaline
Illuminator
 
tesscaline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 4,037
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Easy peasy. For example, yesterday I had 5 birds in my back yard. Today, I had none. Therefore, a "solution" of 1 hungry cat per back yard is equal to -5 birds per back yard. Ergo, homeopathy works!

On that note, I also have some great real estate for sale in Florida, limited time offer! It has to be sold by a Nigerian prince for a discount, but shhh, don't tell anybody, it's top secret.
Ohhhh! Just like one spray can of Raid is equal to -100,000 ants!
tesscaline is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 12:07 PM   #133
Baron Samedi
Critical Thinker
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada
Posts: 488
Originally Posted by SkeptiChick View Post
Ohhhh! Just like one spray can of Raid is equal to -100,000 ants!
Exactly! Just remember to keep an open mind so as you can expand your horizons, and anything is possible! And feel free to throw in the word "quantum" in every day conversation. If you do that, it must be scientific.
Baron Samedi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 12:27 PM   #134
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
 
NobbyNobbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Mended Drum
Posts: 5,634
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
...these principles have eluded any logic...It survived these many long years only because of the anecdotal success stories. Unfortunately these claims could not be consistently reproduced...

You answered your own question in the first paragraph.
__________________
I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding.
AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant
NobbyNobbs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 12:47 PM   #135
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
 
NobbyNobbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Mended Drum
Posts: 5,634
Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I'll keep a few salt packets on hand

Wouldn't the homeopathic remedy for hyperhyrdration be either a few grains of dry dirt, or, according to the OP, a few drops of water diluted in...um...water?
__________________
I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding.
AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant
NobbyNobbs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 12:56 PM   #136
Crundy
Critical Thinker
 
Crundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 475
It would be interesting to find out what test would prove to a homeopath that homeopathy doesn't work. Nothing, I'm guessing. We've tried scientific fact, double blind trials, and in vitro studies such as the Horizon experiment. Nothing.

As someone else mentioned, what we should do is infect a homeopath with a delayed, fatal pathogen, and let them cure themselves using homeopathic remedies alone. Self solving problem.
__________________
"You see, that is why we never do double-blind testing anymore. It never works!" - Chiropractor
Crundy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 01:02 PM   #137
xinit
Muse
 
xinit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by Crundy View Post
As someone else mentioned, what we should do is infect a homeopath with a delayed, fatal pathogen, and let them cure themselves using homeopathic remedies alone. Self solving problem.
People tell me that my proposed Malaria test would be unethical.

I can't imagine that it's as unethical as continuing to tell people that homeopathy works...
xinit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 02:09 PM   #138
sanguine
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 206
Originally Posted by xinit View Post
People tell me that my proposed Malaria test would be unethical.

I can't imagine that it's as unethical as continuing to tell people that homeopathy works...
As long as you define a period in which the homeopathic methods are intended to work, and then institute conventional malaria treatment afterward, and the volunteers give informed consent, the malaria trial is not intrinsically unethical.
sanguine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 02:18 PM   #139
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Falconer, NY
Posts: 11,302
Originally Posted by drkitten View Post
He did.

We are, however, under no obligation to believe it. His use of the word "allopath" is a flare-lit tipoff; almost no one who isn't deeply steeped in homeopathy uses that word. Whether he's a practicing homeopathic witch-doctor or merely a fellow-traveler is almost irrelevant; I'm not a physician, but I would be happy to accept a $100,000 bet that a suitably chosen modern medicine demonstrably does what it says it can do on the label.
True, but I fear it just seems like another, 'skeptics on attack' thing that leaves a bad taste in so many people's mouths. It is also not needed to break down reasoning, which we already have done. Personally, I think we should be happy that someone came in here with 'support' for homeopathy because it gives us the chance to systemically dismiss the claims. If we keep talking about challenges and get really 'mean' to people who come in with claims and support for the stuff we are skeptical in, many of those people won't come around as much.
tyr_13 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 02:57 PM   #140
blutoski
Philosopher
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Vancouver BC Canada
Posts: 7,449
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
When Hahnemann consumed large doses of cinchona bark he developed high fever resembling malaria. His symptoms got better when he took the same in very small doses. He repeated this experiment with many of his friends and was surprised by the same finding. The more the dilution of the concoction, the more effective it was in alleviating the symptoms.
Did he make an effort to distinguish between improvement caused by homeopathic remedy with a diluted quantity of the toxin vs improvement caused by stopping taking the toxin? ie: could his improvement have been caused by simply reducing his exposure, and would taking none have been even better than a dilution?



Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
Homeopathy is true until this point only.
?
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 04:11 PM   #141
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 37,262
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
When Hahnemann consumed large doses of cinchona bark he developed high fever resembling malaria. His symptoms got better when he took the same in very small doses. He repeated this experiment with many of his friends and was surprised by the same finding. The more the dilution of the concoction, the more effective it was in alleviating the symptoms. Homeopathy is true until this point only.

There after Homeopathy went completely in the wrong direction- provings, identifying the drug pictures and the practice of matching

Matching is the main drawback of Homeopathy and is responsible its frequent failures. Matching can never be perfect considering the number and variety of symptoms a drug can produce in individuals, and the infinite permutations and combinations of symptoms.

Rather than using matching, homeopaths must make use of the etiologic, pathologic and biochemical features of a disease in selecting and preparing the remedy.

I'm sure someone else mentioned the idiosyncratic reaction Hahnemann seems to have had to the cinchona bark, and the fact that it was probably an allergy. Never mind that for now.

Homoeopathy has two main tenets. The first one postulated by Hahnemann was the "like cures like" part. Note, this was never "same cures same". Cinchona bark cures malaria, not Plasmodium falciparum cures malaria.

However, it was real cinchona bark. The statement that "the more the dilution of the concoction, the more effective it was in alleviating the symptoms" is completely wrong, when applied to this stage in the progress. Hahnemann began by using finite quantities of his remedies, sometimes quite large quantities, with no thought of dilution at all.

He practised in this way for some time. The main problem he found was that the remedies he was giving people were often extremely toxic, such as arsenic and sulphuric acid, and they were doing more harm to the patients than the original diseases. I believe he killed a few people.

It was in order to get over this difficulty that he devised the second main tenet, the doctrine of "potentisation". He asserted that repeated diluting (with shaking) of the remedy eliminated the toxic potential (well, of course it would), but at the same time preserved the pure essence of the beneficial effects (this is where the magical thinking crept in).

Thus, drgsrinivas is entirely wrong as regards the history and practice of homoeopathy. The concept that the remedy is something which produces symptoms similar to the patient's actual symptoms, but is not itself the causative agent, is absolutely fundamental. More fundamental in fact than the potentisation process.

What is being proposed here is really nothing to do with homoeopathy, even including the concept of "negative solutions" or whatever. If the tenet of the proposition is that the actual causative agent is used in potentised form as the remedy, that is isopathy. Isopathy is scorned by some homoeopaths and practised by some others in a limited sort of way. But it isn't homoeopathy.

Almost all homoeopathy relates to the doctrine of similars. Thus, it has no relation at all to what is being discussed here. Any alleged positive effects of homoeopathy are entirely irrelevant to discussion of what it basically a branch of isopathy.

We seem in fact to be talking about something completely different from what any of us, or indeed any homoeopath, would recognise as homoeopathy. Perhaps we should label it "drgsrinivas-isopathy" and take it from there. Discussion might be simpler.

Rolfe.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 05:19 PM   #142
Sherman Bay
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
Examples:

Highly diluted malarial antigens to treat malaria
Highly diluted HIV antigens to treat HIV infection
Highly diluted tumor antigens to treat cancers
Highly diluted cholera toxin to treat cholera
Highly diluted tetanus and polio toxins to treat tetanus and polio

Highly diluted potassium to treat hyperkalemia and so on.
Never mind that you don't know how these work or if they work at all. "Highly diluted" may be appropriate for some medical treatments, but THERE IS NO MEDICINE IN THE MEDICINE if it is homeopathic. Something diluted past a certain point has nothing in the bottle except inert materials and solutes. Now you will have to explain why NOTHING can cure something, and how certain nothings can cure some somethings, but not other somethings. And with NOT A MOLECULE of the original substance to test or detect, how can we tell what substance was there originally? There's not a single instrument in the world's best chemistry lab that can do that.

There's simply no possible logic to this scheme, only fraud and delusion. I invite you to prove me wrong, and the million dollars is still available for a limited time, so hurry up.
Sherman Bay is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 08:58 PM   #143
drgsrinivas
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 171
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.

But many have not understood the simpler part- Homeopathy is feasible if there is a state of negative concentration. The problem is mainly their hardcore anti homeopathic attitude. Or else it may be that people got used to accept only theories with complex mathematical equations and not those based on simple reasoning.

I am ready to take up the test to prove the existence of negative concentration state. In fact you donít need to come to me all the way; you can do the experiment in your own lab with help from a chemist and a homeopath.

Protocol is simple- Follow the serial dilution and succussion method of preparation of any homeopathic remedy. You can mix that with a solution of known strength and measure its concentration.
drgsrinivas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 09:06 PM   #144
tesscaline
Illuminator
 
tesscaline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 4,037
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.
Then please do so. I, for one, am chomping at the bit to find out how to do this.
tesscaline is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 09:15 PM   #145
xinit
Muse
 
xinit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
Homeopathy is feasible if there is a state of negative concentration.
For someone who states that they are not a homeopath, you sure have the doubletalk down pat...

What do you mean by a negative solution? If we're making a remedy with iron, are you talking about a solution that has a non-positive amount of iron atoms; like -1 mol/L?
xinit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 10:19 PM   #146
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Falconer, NY
Posts: 11,302
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
But many have not understood the simpler part- Homeopathy is feasible if there is a state of negative concentration. The problem is mainly their hardcore anti homeopathic attitude. Or else it may be that people got used to accept only theories with complex mathematical equations and not those based on simple reasoning.
Did I miss something? When did your simple reasoning show something? Wasn't simple reasoning used to take down your claim several times over?

Oooo, logic! Homeopathy is feasible (A) IF there is a state of negative concentration (B). Seeing as B is false, that leaves you with...nothing again.

The process you describe would be diluting, not a negative solution. The main problem is you don't understand basic physics. One doesn't need a hardcore anti-homeopathic attitude to see that.
tyr_13 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 10:46 PM   #147
sanguine
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 206
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
Protocol is simple- Follow the serial dilution and succussion method of preparation of any homeopathic remedy. You can mix that with a solution of known strength and measure its concentration.
So the assertion is that if I say, start with a one molar NaCl solution (~58 grams of crystalline NaCl into a liter of purified water) and then serially dilute that solution over and over again, it will at some point become a "negative" solution?

What fold dilution should be used for the serial dilutions, and how many times?

Following that dilution, what is the assay that is used to "measure its concentration"? Is the suggestion that you add the final diluted product to a known concentration of the same solution and then measure that concentration? I read that as:

Start with 1 M NaCl solution
Serially dilute that solution to some degree
Add the final serial dilution product to some amount of 1M NaCl
Measure final concentration

Presumably, then the final concentration of NaCl in the combined solutions would be expected to be somehow lower than expected?

For example, a positive result would be:

Serially dilute NaCl solution to effective zero concentration
Add 500 mL of that dilution to 500 mL of 1 M NaCl
Final concentration is significantly less than 0.5 M NaCl

Is that the assertion, and a reasonable assay?
sanguine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 11:01 PM   #148
PixyMisa
Persnickety Insect
 
PixyMisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny Munuvia
Posts: 15,268
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.
We're listening.

Quote:
But many have not understood the simpler part- Homeopathy is feasible if there is a state of negative concentration.
Remember, there are two strikes against homeopathy. 1: Can't work. 2: Doesn't work. Even if you manage to dispose of one problem, you must still address the other.

Quote:
The problem is mainly their hardcore anti homeopathic attitude.
You mean, we disallow the impossible?

Quote:
Or else it may be that people got used to accept only theories with complex mathematical equations and not those based on simple reasoning.
You mean, we also disallow the nonsensical?

Quote:
I am ready to take up the test to prove the existence of negative concentration state.
We're still listening.

Quote:
In fact you donít need to come to me all the way; you can do the experiment in your own lab with help from a chemist and a homeopath.
What's the homeopath needed for? Oh, never mind, still listening.

Quote:
Protocol is simple- Follow the serial dilution and succussion method of preparation of any homeopathic remedy. You can mix that with a solution of known strength and measure its concentration.
Fail.
__________________
Free blogs for skeptics... And everyone else. mee.nu
What, in the Holy Name of Gzortch, are you people doing?!?!!? - TGHO
PixyMisa is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 11:15 PM   #149
Wildy
Adelaidean
 
Wildy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia, not that you'll read the "location" field.
Posts: 10,230
Originally Posted by Baron Samedi View Post
Exactly! Just remember to keep an open mind so as you can expand your horizons, and anything is possible! And feel free to throw in the word "quantum" in every day conversation. If you do that, it must be scientific.
That's so quantum. You know I can't believe how quantum that is.

Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.

But many have not understood the simpler part- Homeopathy is feasible if there is a state of negative concentration. The problem is mainly their hardcore anti homeopathic attitude. Or else it may be that people got used to accept only theories with complex mathematical equations and not those based on simple reasoning.

I am ready to take up the test to prove the existence of negative concentration state. In fact you donít need to come to me all the way; you can do the experiment in your own lab with help from a chemist and a homeopath.

Protocol is simple- Follow the serial dilution and succussion method of preparation of any homeopathic remedy. You can mix that with a solution of known strength and measure its concentration.
Can you at least show this theoretically? I mean if I start with a 1M solution of NaCl, then how would I go about diluting it to -1M?

And what is there to stop me from filling up a glass of pure water and claiming that it has a -1M solution of NaCl?
__________________
Latest Blog Posts:Atheism+
More Atheism+ stuff

Wildy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th September 2008, 11:16 PM   #150
sanguine
Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 206
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
you can do the experiment in your own lab with help from a chemist and a homeopath.
I actually missed this on my first readthrough. I figure I can do it with help from me, since I'm a competent chemist. What's the homeopath for?
sanguine is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 12:38 AM   #151
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 24,985
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.

Let me guess: antimatter?
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 12:39 AM   #152
TheDaver
hairy farting brute
 
TheDaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Montrťal
Posts: 972
Originally Posted by sanguine View Post
I actually missed this on my first readthrough. I figure I can do it with help from me, since I'm a competent chemist. What's the homeopath for?
To empty the garbage pails and turn the lights off when you leave.
TheDaver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 01:49 AM   #153
Crundy
Critical Thinker
 
Crundy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 475
I'll ask drgsrinivas again:

What test would convince you that homeopathy doesn't work?

For me if someone told me that, for example, paracetamol (acetamionophen) does not stop headaches, initially I would not believe them. If a controlled double-blind trial showed that paracetamol was not statistically significantly more effective than placebo at alleviating headache symptoms then I would change my mind and conclude that paracetamol is not effective for headaches. What test would make you change your mind about homeopathy?
__________________
"You see, that is why we never do double-blind testing anymore. It never works!" - Chiropractor
Crundy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 02:05 AM   #154
Baron Samedi
Critical Thinker
 
Baron Samedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kayfabe, Upper Canada
Posts: 488
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.
The process of serial dilution and succussion is not a simple matter of addition and subtraction, but multiplication. Your series is much easier to calculate that way.
Baron Samedi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 02:18 AM   #155
paximperium
Penultimate Amazing
 
paximperium's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple
Posts: 10,727
Somehow...everyone seems to be still waiting...it's like the Big Foot guys hoax anouncement...we're being strung along and still waiting.
__________________
"The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett
paximperium is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 03:17 AM   #156
Twiler
Master Poster
 
Twiler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,491
Originally Posted by drgsrinivas View Post
The process of serial dilution and succussion results in the formation of a negative solution. I can explain how.

But many have not understood the simpler part- Homeopathy is feasible if there is a state of negative concentration. The problem is mainly their hardcore anti homeopathic attitude. Or else it may be that people got used to accept only theories with complex mathematical equations and not those based on simple reasoning.

[snip]
Does anyone know what happens when two anti-intellectuals with opposing viewpoints come into contact? Do they just shout at each other until they lose their voices?

drgsrinivas, it only seems like simple reasoning to you because it's actually dogma. To all of us it seems like nonsense.
Twiler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 06:49 AM   #157
xinit
Muse
 
xinit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 569
Originally Posted by TheDaver View Post
To empty the garbage pails and turn the lights off when you leave.
Pfft... the homeopath would tell you that a full garbage can is really a small amount of garbage, and to wait for more garbage to appear for it to become a smaller amount. If only you would discard your allopathic concepts of sanitation and be open minded.

Oh, and he'd steal your lightbulbs, because illumination is bad for his cause.
xinit is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 06:57 AM   #158
Hellbound
Abiogenic Spongiform
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,821
So, no mention of my offer to give you a house?

As I expected.

Heck, I'll do the same wager based on your "negative solution" idea. It'll be a bit trickier, as we'll have to define protocols and find a third-party chemist and homeopath.

I'd suggest doing a test where:

1. We have the chemist make (or purchase from a known, reputable supply store) 10 equal volume bottles of, say, 5M NaCl solution.
2. Your homeopath makes 5 equal volume bottles of "negative solution". He also makes 5 bottles (same volume as the "negative" solutions) that are nothing but stock solvent (i.e.-the water he started with, not mixed, not succussed).
3. Both sets of bottles are given to a neutral third party, who will mix each NaCl solution with one of the homeopaths solutions, all into identical containers marked only with a number (1 through 10). The third party then returns the solutions.
4. You identify the 5 bottles that were mixed with your "negative" solution.
5. We then check your answers with our neutral third party.
6. You pay me the amount agreed when you epically fail, or I sign over my house to you if everything we know about the world (and have built up over the last hundred years) is wrong, and there really is no rational, logical, underlying reality to the universe.

How's that sound?
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 07:28 AM   #159
Stout
Master Poster
 
Stout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,251
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm sure someone else mentioned the idiosyncratic reaction Hahnemann seems to have had to the cinchona bark, and the fact that it was probably an allergy. Never mind that for now.

Homoeopathy has two main tenets. The first one postulated by Hahnemann was the "like cures like" part. Note, this was never "same cures same". Cinchona bark cures malaria, not Plasmodium falciparum cures malaria.

However, it was real cinchona bark. The statement that "the more the dilution of the concoction, the more effective it was in alleviating the symptoms" is completely wrong, when applied to this stage in the progress. Hahnemann began by using finite quantities of his remedies, sometimes quite large quantities, with no thought of dilution at all.

He practised in this way for some time. The main problem he found was that the remedies he was giving people were often extremely toxic, such as arsenic and sulphuric acid, and they were doing more harm to the patients than the original diseases. I believe he killed a few people.

It was in order to get over this difficulty that he devised the second main tenet, the doctrine of "potentisation". He asserted that repeated diluting (with shaking) of the remedy eliminated the toxic potential (well, of course it would), but at the same time preserved the pure essence of the beneficial effects (this is where the magical thinking crept in).

Thus, drgsrinivas is entirely wrong as regards the history and practice of homoeopathy. The concept that the remedy is something which produces symptoms similar to the patient's actual symptoms, but is not itself the causative agent, is absolutely fundamental. More fundamental in fact than the potentisation process.

What is being proposed here is really nothing to do with homoeopathy, even including the concept of "negative solutions" or whatever. If the tenet of the proposition is that the actual causative agent is used in potentised form as the remedy, that is isopathy. Isopathy is scorned by some homoeopaths and practised by some others in a limited sort of way. But it isn't homoeopathy.

Almost all homoeopathy relates to the doctrine of similars. Thus, it has no relation at all to what is being discussed here. Any alleged positive effects of homoeopathy are entirely irrelevant to discussion of what it basically a branch of isopathy.

We seem in fact to be talking about something completely different from what any of us, or indeed any homoeopath, would recognise as homoeopathy. Perhaps we should label it "drgsrinivas-isopathy" and take it from there. Discussion might be simpler.

Rolfe.
Thanks for the clarification Rolfe.

I've got to add, the whole concept of negative solutions is something I've never come across in any of my readings of homeopathy.

just thinking out loud here...but might this whole negative solutions thing be more of a Dr. Emoto type thing where "the energy" of the water is somehow affected by the addition and subsequent removal of solutes.

I asked my chem teacher neighbour about negative solutions as discussed in this thread, ans he slowly backed away from me....

I'm reading this whole same cures same as vaccination, but way too late in the game.
Stout is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th September 2008, 08:38 AM   #160
steenkh
Illuminator
 
steenkh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Denmark
Posts: 3,926
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I'm reading this whole same cures same as vaccination, but way too late in the game.
"Same cures same" has nothing to do with vaccination. First of all, in homoeopathy, the "same cures same" is based on finding something that produces the same symptoms, but is not actually the same as the illness. Besides, homoeopathy uses dilutions so small that it is actually of no interest what active ingredient they started with because that ingredient has been diluted away into nothingness. Real (though somewhat fraudulent) homoeopaths find that if they need more remedy than they have available, it works just as well to top off the bottle with more of the solvent. This is consistent with the theory that homoeopathy does not actually work.

In vaccination, there is actual measurable active ingredients present, and they are based on the actual disease vector, though in a diluted form. And as you pointed out, vaccination only works before the patient is infected, not afterwards. Using more solvent instead of active ingredients in a vaccine will not produce a workable vaccine, consistent with the theory that vaccines really work.
__________________
Steen

--
Jack of all trades - master of none!
steenkh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

JREF Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2001-2013, James Randi Educational Foundation. All Rights Reserved.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.