My Impromptu Debate with Richard Gage outside The White House

[The Director]

It was my first ever trip to Washington D.C. My wife and I were walking with her parents down Pennsylvania Avenue in awe of the grandeur of the executive mansion. My wife tugged at my arm and said, “Hey Kevin, who is that guy with a camera on him? Is he a congressman?” The guy did, in fact, look familiar. He just got finished unfurling a banner right off the sidewalk that said, “Hundreds of Archietects and Engineers Demand a Real 9/11 Investigation.”



After reading the banner, my suspicions were confirmed, “Holy Cow, that is Richard Gage.” My father-and-law asked, “Who is he?” I replied, “He is one of the primary leaders of the 9/11 conspiracy theory movement.” My father-in-law patted me on the back and said, “Go get ‘em Kevin, take as long as you need.”

I have read much of Richard Gage’s work. I had also watched hours of him giving lectures, and appearing on the television programs Hardfire and the BBC’s Conspiracy Files. I never dreamed of meeting him in person. I knew his presentation style and judging by what he was saying I got there just when he began speaking.

“How many of you here today,” he said to a small crowd gathered round, “know about the third tower that fell on 9/11?” I, and a young lady beside me, raised our hands. He, and his camera man, approached me, “You sir, where did you see the third tower fall?” “ I responded, “I saw it live on television.” He repeated what I said and continued to ask, “…and how did the building come down? Had you ever seen something like that before?” I knew where he was going, he was trying to get me to say, “The building fell just like a building being blown up.” I said instead, “The building was on fire all afternoon and it fell down just as the fire department and on site building engineers predicted.” The girl beside me was a 9/11 Truther. She was quick to oblige, “The building fell down as if it had bombs in it.”



That was all Richard needed to engage in his dog and pony show. It is impossible for me to provide an accurate transcript of our impromptu debate two weeks ago. 9/11 Truthers are notorious for engaging in Proof by Verbosity, therefore it would be impossible for me to provide a word-by-word account. Richard did have a camera on throughout our entire conversation, and he and his volunteers are currently posting the videos from the D.C. trip on the Internet, however I do not expect to see a video of our encounter posted, especially in its entirety. Why?

Richard Gage and his organization post videos religiously. Whether it is him giving a presentation at a community college or speaking to someone who just happens to walk up to his booth during an architects convention that has no idea what he is talking about. However, we have seen that when someone mops the floor with Richard, or at the very least challenges his beliefs, he does not post videos or advertise them at his ae911truth.org website. Yes, he posts videos of the most mundane conversations in which he tries to get these old geezers (barely in their right mind) to sign his petition, however, he does not post a video on his website with him debating a lead researcher in the 9/11 Truth debunking movement, Mark Roberts, when they both appeared on a coast-to-coast satellite interview on a local cable television show broadcasting to New York’s 8.3 million citizens. Why? Because Richard Gage got his rear-end handed to him, even when he and the host tried to catch Mark unaware by changing the topic of the debate moments before going on air.

However, I will post photos of the exchange, and will try my best to recall what was said on a few key topics. Note, while Richard and I began our conversation, his 2-3 little followers who had been voicing support as he spoke, slowly walked away.



Interesting Tidbits

1) I let Richard know that I knew who he was and I even shook his hand. I told him that I could once be considered a ‘truther’ for a very short time, but that all changed very quickly. Richard smiled and said, “I see, so you are reformed?”

2) Richard claimed that there has been no real investigation into the collapse of WTC7. I pointed out that there had been, he just didn’t like the results. I pointed out that the National Institutes of Standards and Technology poured millions of dollars of research into an investigation and that we have no conclusive evidence why we should distrust their finding.

3) Richard claimed that there were only minimal fires in WTC7—nothing to bring down a building. I pointed out that there are plenty of videos of WTC7’s collapse but the vast majority of them are shot from a “safe” angle outside of Ground Zero. Videos have been released, even recently, that show that the side of WTC7 facing the former WTC complex was totally engulfed, or “fully involved” as the FDNY put it. He attempted to correct me and say, “Yes, these videos only show black smoke billowing out of multiple floors of the complex—“ I interrupted him. “—and where there’s smoke Richard…” He reluctantly said, “Well, you’d think there would be fire.” I also told the people listening to check out the BBC’s debunking of this “minimal fires” claim.

4) Richard then went on to use his infamous "first time in history" claims to which we are all so familiar. After he was finished, I opined, "Richard, no matter where you are coming from September 11th was a day of firsts. Yes, it was the first time in history that a building this size collapsed due to fire. But, it was also the first time in history that the fifth tallest building in the world falls on a 47 story more than half it's size to ignite that fire. It was also the first time in history that a skyscraper's fires were not fought, as Tower 1's collapse severed the building's sprinkler lines and then the firefighter's pulled their operations. We simply do not have a control to compare this to."

5) The only time that I actually played offense was toward the end with what I consider my pet peeve. I told Gage that I am generally upset how he uses the Larry Silverstien quote ‘Pull it’ of evidence of conspiracy. Richard quickly turned to his camera to give context to my complaint. I then told Richard straight up, “Every time you use this claim you are implicating the FDNY, an organization that lost over 300 brothers on that day.” Richard quickly denied the assertion. “Ok, Richard, who is Silverstein talking to?” He replied correctly, “To a commander from the New York Fire Department.” I then said, “Ok, Richard, now what was the quote?” He stumbled through trying to remember precisely the quote. Knowing that he had been cornered, he then quickly transitioned into a farewell.

6) Richard shook my hand and told me (and the camera) that he would love to carry on the conversation and to perhaps eat lunch together but he had a plane to catch. He shook my hand and told the camera that it was a pleasure meeting a fellow JREFer outside of the White House. I then shared with him my JREF identiy.

7) Richard’s cameraman then made the statement, “Well, isn’t this a total coincidence that you just happened to bump into Richard Gage right outside of the White House.” This isn’t the first time that a conspiracy theoriest has eluded that I am a government plant, or better yet, working for the CIA.


Richard Gage had probably only been there speaking for about 10-15 minutes and then he wanted to leave pretty quickly. The conversation was completely cordial and, dare I say, pleasant.



Afterwards, he even introduced himself to my wife. Richard is pretty much the only leader of the 9/11 Truth movement that I would want to engage in conversation that long. If I saw Alex Jones or Jason Bermas on the street, I would probably be so incensed that I would not even bother talking with them, and knowing their conversational style, I would not have the opportunity to open my mouth over their megaphones.

I was beaming after the conversation. Was it because I met a celebrity in one of my former hobbies? No. It was because I felt that using the evidence that I researched years ago and through civil debate, I was able to completely debunk the best of the best of the leaders of the 9/11 Truth Movement. Also, I believe that down deep inside, Richard could hear where I was coming from. I hope that someday he can ‘reformed’ as well.

[AZCat]

Congratulations on keeping your head together. Civility and rationality are difficult to maintain when tangling with truthers.

[wicked_ways]

The Director,
This is great! Thanks for recounting your story with pictures.
Especially the last one, what a cute couple!

[Doctor Evil]

Thank you for the story. The check is in the mail

[boloboffin]

Great story. AE911Truth tweeted about Monday, and said they had spoken to "dozens of tourists" outside the White House. Little mention was made of any rear-ends being handed to Richard.

Keep up the good work.

[The Director]

Originally Posted by AZCat

Congratulations on keeping your head together. Civility and rationality are difficult to maintain when tangling with truthers.

Yes, I have learned from experience. I have lost my cool over the radio while debating a Truther.

I was very tempted to get in to "box boy" language and "you never designed anything bigger than a gymnasium" mode, but I resisted that temptation in order to carry on a fruitful conversation.

Thanks for reading.

[The Director]

Originally Posted by wicked_ways

The Director,
This is great! Thanks for recounting your story with pictures.
Especially the last one, what a cute couple!

HaHa, Thanks...

I first got into debunking when we first got married and I think that she thought it was a totally useless enterprise. However, she walked away from this little debate PUMPED.

[The Director]

Originally Posted by Doctor Evil

Thank you for the story. The check is in the mail

Luckily, Richard did not see me take the phonebooth/elevator back inside The White House.

...and aren't you aware? Since the NWO controls all of the banks in the world, they have been doing wire transfers for decades!

[Doctor Evil]

Originally Posted by The Director

Luckily, Richard did not see me take the phonebooth/elevator back inside The White House.

...and aren't you aware? Since the NWO controls all of the banks in the world, they have been doing wire transfers for decades!

Hey, its just a figure of speech

[LashL]

Nicely done, The Director. Many thanks for sharing your story and your photos.

[KJC]

That's the beauty of conspiracy theories... absolutely any random guy off the street can give the "experts" of the conspiracy movement their ass handed to them.

[Horatius]

Originally Posted by The Director

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/100_4955.jpg

Best. Pose. Ever.



Seriously, good job and all.

[Hokulele]

Thanks for sharing, and I hope the rest of the trip was equally enjoyable.

Originally Posted by The Director

After reading the banner, my suspicions were confirmed, “Holy Cow, that is Richard Gage.” My father-and-law asked, “Who is he?”

That pretty much says it all.

[Foolmewunz]

Nice going, The Director!

Is this what Richard's come to? One of the crazies who want to put pants on cows who'll be in front of the White House? (I think for you English folk out there this is the equivalent of the Hyde Park "people with a cause" types.)

Did he say why he was there? Did it appear to be organized, or just Richard taking advantage of some free time and deciding to bring the message to the masses?

[A W Smith]

That was neat. Nice Job The Director! I hope you remembered to punch out after you left the white house grounds.

[boloboffin]

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Nice going, The Director!

Is this what Richard's come to? One of the crazies who want to put pants on cows who'll be in front of the White House? (I think for you English folk out there this is the equivalent of the Hyde Park "people with a cause" types.)

Did he say why he was there? Did it appear to be organized, or just Richard taking advantage of some free time and deciding to bring the message to the masses?

Richard was there for an AIA conference. He'd done some sightseeing the day before and was fresh from delivering his "scathing letter" for Dr. Sunder to the security guard at NIST.

[16.5]

Well done, keeping one's temper makes all the difference in the world.

Of course, you appeared to have Gale Sayers watching your back.

DA BEARS!

[Foolmewunz]

Quote:

7) Richard’s cameraman then made the statement, “Well, isn’t this a total coincidence that you just happened to bump into Richard Gage right outside of the White House.”

One of those great Ishuddasaid moments.

"No. This is just what your movement's come to. Strangers passing on the street can set the boss back on his heels because he has so real actual science in his presentation that a mere dilettante can take it apart. Get used to it."

[Hokulele]

Originally Posted by 16.5

Of course, you appeared to have Gale Sayers watching your back.

He is shorter than I expected.

[AZCat]

Originally Posted by Hokulele

He is shorter than I expected.

He also hits like a train when you're trying to tackle him, according to my father.

[Arus808]

nicely done Director...maybe he was just jealous of your good looks to continue in trying to debate you ^_~ . Give your wife the biggest hug for letting you have your 15 minutes...

[longfellow]

Good read. Well done.

[Pardalis]

It's amazing to see him spouting the same rubbish year after year, I mean he must know he's lying by now.

[Magenta]

Thank you for the interesting post and photos, The Director, and well done on keeping your cool.

Originally Posted by The Director

7) Richard’s cameraman then made the statement, “Well, isn’t this a total coincidence that you just happened to bump into Richard Gage right outside of the White House.” This isn’t the first time that a conspiracy theoriest has eluded that I am a government plant, or better yet, working for the CIA.

I wonder if he noticed the guys filming across the street or the cop on horseback. Horse-cam anyone?

[Brainster]

Great job! I am putting this on SLC for the Sunday morning post! Great timing, TD!

[Audible Click]

Kudos! I imagine he was very surprised and not in a nice way.

[Dog Town]

Originally Posted by AZCat

Congratulations on keeping your head together. Civility and rationality are difficult to maintain when tangling with truthers.

Fair enough, but why? RG is a maroon, PTB's wet dream! I hope to meet his lazy ass! It will not go like that!

[Dog Town]

Originally Posted by pardalis

it's amazing to see him spouting the same rubbish year after year, i mean he must know he's lying by now.

lucky for him, Twoofers pay his bills!

[Alt+F4]

Originally Posted by LashL

Nicely done, The Director. Many thanks for sharing your story and your photos.

Agreed. You and your wife are so cute, with all that blonde hair!

[Pink Booties]

Entertaining. And wonderful... I might imagine myself doing much worse... getting into a heated argument, questioning his patriotism, going all sorts of directions that would neither be effective nor reflect well on the skeptical community at large.

My hero. You and your wife appear much like myself and mine... if you're ever in Lansing Michigan for some reason, look me up.

[TruthersLie]

I'm just waiting for the twoof to come in and say it is fake.

That it isn't you in the photos and you don't have any video to support it...

[T.A.M.]

The only plant was the truther girl who said it fell "like bombs were used"...lol

TAM

[A W Smith]

This caught my eye last night but i didn't comment on it

Quote:

He shook my hand and told the camera that it was a pleasure meeting a fellow JREFer outside of the White House.

Gage is registered here?

[~enigma~]

Originally Posted by A W Smith

This caught my eye last night but i didn't comment on it





Gage is registered here?

Guess we can't call him an idiot anymore...

[T.A.M.]

Originally Posted by ~enigma~

Guess we can't call him an idiot anymore...

until he announces to us who he is, why not? For all we know, David Ray Griffin could be a member here, but I am not about to stop calling him a moron.

TAM

[Grizzly Bear]

Not sure how I would have handled that conversation with Gage in person. I suspect similar to how I respond to all people here though with fewer reservations about my word choice. Gage might be somone whom you can hold a friendly conversation with over a cup of coffee but his malpractice on much of the "evidence" he purports isn't something I can easily tolerate.

Glad it actually did go well considering

[Crazytimes]

That is awesome. How did he know you were a jref member ? Did you tell him or does he lurk here so often that what you were saying sounded familiar ?

[Lennart Hyland]

Great job! Thanks for a nice read!

[knife fight colobus]

Very awesome story, you handled it perfectly. I like that your father-in-law told you to take your time, you married into the right family, man.

I think it actually is a little better for the TM that Gage was at The White House. I remember in 9/11 Deniers Speak at GZ the Muslim person was yelling at a Truther to go and protest at The White House instead of at the place where people lost their lives. I really agree with that, go to The White House if you're gonna do protesting, don't go to GZ, that just seems like exploitation.

Sadly, it didn't sound like Gage was up to anything genuine, he just wanted to do his version of Leno's "Jay-Walking."

Again, awesome job. I'm also absurdly jealous, I need to see when Gage comes to LA next.

[George152]

Well done.
But its all water off ducks backs.
He'll go on peddling the same rubbish without thought.