Science is a cult - Page 6

JetLeg · 13th August 2009, 09:52 AM

__

Dave Rogers · 13th August 2009, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

I agree that you question the current theories, but you don't question the scientific method.

Well, since the scientific method is that you question the current theories, then the only alternative would be to accept current theories without question. But that's part of the scientific method too; if new data arrives which appears to contradict current theories, then we must always consider the possibility that we're wrong, and actually it doesn't. So, in effect, questioning the scientific method is part of the scientific method.

Dave

Pardalis · 13th August 2009, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by Pardalis

JetLeg, tell me what is wrong about this:

How is that not a valid way to get to the truth?

And, as asked multiple times in the thread, do you have something better to propose?

Originally Posted by JetLeg

__

I'll take that as your answer.

JetLeg · 13th August 2009, 10:01 AM

Pure_Argent 's post #166 about christianity - do you think that the logic is valid & the premises sound there?

paximperium · 13th August 2009, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

Pure_Argent 's post #166 about christianity - do you think that the logic is valid & the premises sound there?

No.

Sun Countess · 13th August 2009, 10:07 AM

JetLeg, do you honestly believe that a cult is defined solely by its claim to have the only way to the truth about nature?

What really differentiates cult membership* from the pursuance of a hobby or a profession?

Cult members are asked to cut off ties to their family and friends.
Cult members are asked to give all (or most) their belongings and money to the cult.
Cult members are asked to continue giving their earnings to the cult.
Cult members are (often) asked to live in a communal setting or area.
Cult members have a distinct leader from whom they receive their instruction and knowledge.
Cult members are asked to recruit members during their unpaid free time, often by handing out pamphlets.

In contrast:

Scientists, science students, and science hobbyists can have family and friends from outside science. Science doesn't require that its "members" give money to the leadership. In fact, many scientists are paid for their work! They don't have to give up their earnings, live in a communal setting, spend their free time shilling for the cult, or answer to a central leader.

*When I think of cults, I think of Jonestown, the Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, Scientologists, Heavensgate, and David Koresh's group. I think many mainstream religions have many of the same earmarks as cults, but have reached a level of societal acceptance, so their members no longer require intensive brainwashing or separation from non-adherents in order to continue their monetary commitment or obedience to the leadership.

Sunray Breaker · 13th August 2009, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Science is a cult.

I'm sure whatever religion you're trying to defend is too...Difference with science and most "cults" is we encourage heresy in the name of truth.

Quote:

1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand.

Just because you don't have enough ritalin in science class doesn't mean it's a secret...It just means you should read more.

Quote:

2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only.

The youngest person to have a scientific article published was (if I recall) 12 years old...She debunked telekinesis with a double blind study...Oh, and she most certainly wasn't a card carrying scientists yet. Allow me to clear this one up...Only people presenting ACTUAL SCIENCE can get published in a SCIENCE magazine...Fair enough is you ask me.

Quote:

3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science.

Members of any school of thought are encouraged to dedicate their lives to it...Be it philosophy, science, religion, etc....Big deal!!!

Quote:

4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science.

Considering all the damage done by people enlightening others to completely fabricated lies, someone needs to spread actual, varifiable truth...I wish we had MORE scientists working on this.

Quote:

5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth.

Can you prove otherwise? If not, you're probably just jealous of our consistancy and accuracy.

added:

Quote:

1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.

Right...because this doesn't also happen with political parties, mainstream religions, corporatations and right own down to the individual human ego...What exactly is your faith? What all knowing source has you convinced that science some how screwed it all up?

Quote:

2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature).

Ah...there's your key difference there between a cult and science...Discovering.
Cults don't discover, they merely take someone elses word for it and use their cognitive biases to draw conclusions from random coincidence. Where as science, even after initial discovery, will still recreate the process, over and over, until the answer presents itself...There is no one book for science, because it changes so much...A cult has a very narrow world view. Science has one of teh broadest of worldviews known to man kind.

Quote:

3. Science is a cult.

And whatever belief system you're currently subscribing to is probably one too. And a much worse one at that.

JFrankA · 13th August 2009, 10:50 AM

You still haven't answered this comment made by me and a lot others on this this thread, namely your logic is such that:

Originally Posted by JFrankA

by your logic:

1. Only Jetleg thinks that his way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.
2. Jetleg thinks so about his method (whenit comes to discovering truths truths about nature).
Thus Jetleg is a cult.

1 is true, 2 is true.

Here's the difference between science and you.

You (Jetleg) insists that your truth is THE ONLY ONE that is right.

Science doesn't. It questions, it asks, it tests and if something is wrong, it throws it out no matter how many people like the theory. Science also says "I don't know". A lot. If something says "I don't know" then it can't have a truth that is THE ONLY ONE that is right.

You haven't done that. Instead, you've manipulated the facts and definitions, and done every trick you can to prove that you are right.

Therefore, by your logic, you are a cult...

Lrrr · 13th August 2009, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

Why do folks who can't use logic insist on throwing around the names of fallacies like rice at a wedding?

Ad simile attack!

Eos of the Eons · 13th August 2009, 02:43 PM

Anyone can be become a scientist. Then any of those can use the tools of science (and methods) to conduct sciency things.

Unlike a cult, you can go and see what they're up to at any time, or if you're a scientist you can leave any time. If you do it wrong, then your peers will call you on it. In a cult you have a leader instead, and you don't dare call them on anything.

Science is self correcting, unlike a cult.

Science is in no way, shape, or form like a cult.

paximperium · 13th August 2009, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons

Anyone can be become a scientist. Then any of those can use the tools of science (and methods) to conduct sciency things.

Unlike a cult, you can go and see what they're up to at any time, or if you're a scientist you can leave any time. If you do it wrong, then your peers will call you on it. In a cult you have a leader instead, and you don't dare call them on anything.

Science is self correcting, unlike a cult.

Science is in now way, shape, or form like a cult.

Don't be silly. Science meets Jetleg's arbitrarily chosen criteria that makes plumbing a cult and we all know he/she thinks that his/her way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.

themusicteacher · 13th August 2009, 02:50 PM

It seems as though this faulty premise has been fully exposed regardless of JL's level of acceptance to defeat. Time to move on?

Eos of the Eons · 13th August 2009, 02:53 PM

I guess real cults need a new name then. Um. Cult now just means being part of any group at all.

Woonatics. That is when a leader forms a loony group where you have to give up your family and wordly items, stop communicating with anyone but group members, and all have the same religion/dogma.

BobTheDonkey · 13th August 2009, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Sun Countess

When I think of cults, I think of Jonestown, the Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, Scientologists, Heavensgate, and David Koresh's group. I think many mainstream religions have many of the same earmarks as cults, but have reached a level of societal acceptance, so their members no longer require intensive brainwashing or separation from non-adherents in order to continue their monetary commitment or obedience to the leadership.

Ahhh, but that's why mainstream organized religions are so dangerous. They don't appear to be cults. Mainstream organized Religions engage heavily in brainwashing (AWANAs, Bible Study, youth groups, etc), encourage members to recruit new members (amongst their families, as well as strangers on the street), frown on members being socially active with "heathens" (outside of recruitment, of course), and encourage blind following of the leader. If Scientology was more mainstream (socially accepted), would it really be any less of a cult? Of course not. Social acceptance does not provide any discount to the cult nature of mainstream organized religion.

JFrankA · 13th August 2009, 03:26 PM

Awwww.... I've always wanted to have my own cult....

Wait!!!! I can fulfill the criteria!!!!!

Let's see...uhm...

"What I teach is the truth and THE ONLY ONE that is right and everyone who follows me think about my teachings and follow my method all the time without question."

See? So? Can I please have my own cult?? Huh? Can I? Huh? Huh? Please??? Can I??? Please????? Huh??????

Paul · 13th August 2009, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons

I guess real cults need a new name then. Um. Cult now just means being part of any group at all.

Woonatics.

That's way too cute, like a puppy.

Awww, look at the ickle woonatic he's sooo cute...
does he want his tummy tickled?
yes he does, yes he does

Paul · 13th August 2009, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by JFrankA

See? So? Can I please have my own cult?? Huh? Can I? Huh? Huh? Please??? Can I??? Please????? Huh??????

You said you really wanted a pyramid scheme for Christmas, you said you'd look after it properly this time. Look what happened to that, we had to drag it's stinking corpse out to the woods and bury it before the neighbours complained.

JFrankA · 13th August 2009, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Paul

You said you really wanted a pyramid scheme for Christmas, you said you'd look after it properly this time. Look what happened to that, we had to drag it's stinking corpse out to the woods and bury it before the neighbours complained.

Yeah, but ...but.... I had to spend so much on Amway products I couldn't keep that up.......

A cult is different.... I don't have to spend anything and I can come up with a truth method so that they give ME money... C'mon.... please?????

......I'll wash it everyday.... promise.....

Paul · 13th August 2009, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by JFrankA

C'mon.... please?????

......I'll wash it everyday.... promise.....

OK, OK.

But, you have to clean up after your adherents, you will not brainwash anyone we know, no abusing your position of absolute power, and if the FBI ask, we thought you were running a book group.

LightningStrike · 13th August 2009, 06:15 PM

Cults are any organisation that requires a belief to maintain their ideological structure.

We live in a culture of belief.

paximperium · 13th August 2009, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by LightningStrike

Cults are any organisation that requires a belief to maintain their ideological structure.

We live in a culture of belief.

Which continues to render the term "cult" completely and utterly meaningless.

LightningStrike · 13th August 2009, 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by paximperium

Which continues to render the term "cult" completely and utterly meaningless.

Or perhaps completely significant?

Paul · 13th August 2009, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by LightningStrike

Or perhaps completely significant?

Nope.

Piggy · 13th August 2009, 07:35 PM

Kittens are a cult.

KarlG · 14th August 2009, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

Science is a cult.

1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand.

2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only.

3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science.

4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science.

5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth.

added:

1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.
2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature).
3. Science is a cult.

Do you see a problem with the premises, or with the logic? The premises are true, and the logic valid.

Just to demolish point number two, may i introduce Emily Rosa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

!Kaggen · 14th August 2009, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

Science is a cult.

1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand.

2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only.

3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science.

4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science.

5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth.

added:

1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.
2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature).
3. Science is a cult.

Do you see a problem with the premises, or with the logic? The premises are true, and the logic valid.

The concept "science" refers to a system of acquiring knowledge using the scientific method.
The concept "cult" refers to a system of religious practices and beliefs. Therefore the concept "cult" cannot be equivalent to the concept "science", since a cult does not entail a system of acquiring knowledge using the scientific method and science does not entail a system of religious practices and beliefs.

That is the theory at least.
I admit not many know the difference.

rwguinn · 14th August 2009, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons

Anyone can be become a scientist. Then any of those can use the tools of science (and methods) to conduct sciency things.

Unlike a cult, you can go and see what they're up to at any time, or if you're a scientist you can leave any time. If you do it wrong, then your peers will call you on it. In a cult you have a leader instead, and you don't dare call them on anything.

Science is self correcting, unlike a cult.

Science is in no way, shape, or form like a cult.

A scientist can publicly question the "Leader" (preeminent scientist in the field), point out his/her failings, and still remain a scientist! Amazing anti-cult, there!

zooterkin · 14th August 2009, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Piggy

Kittens are a cult.

You sure spell things funny round your way. We say "kittens are cute" here.

Or perhaps you meant, kittens are occult. Behind that soft and fluffy exterior, what nameless horror lurks?

Bob Klase · 14th August 2009, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by KarlG

Just to demolish point number two, may i introduce Emily Rosa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

But she was a scientist. I can prove it:

Emily_Rosa

See- she was published in a Scientific Journal

Only scientists are published in Scientific Journals

Therefore she is a scientist!

Elizabeth I · 14th August 2009, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by KarlG

Just to demolish point number two, may i introduce Emily Rosa:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa

So? Just proves she (and all those other kids mentioned up-thread) have been indoctrinated and brainwashed by the cult.

Ron_Tomkins · 14th August 2009, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

Science is a cult.

1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand.

2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only.

3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science.

4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science.

5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth.

added:

1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.
2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature).
3. Science is a cult.

Do you see a problem with the premises, or with the logic? The premises are true, and the logic valid.

Is this yet another attempt at trying to imply that Science is just another form of Religion?

If not, then what in the hell is the point of this thread?

thaiboxerken · 14th August 2009, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

But the scientific method is THE ONLY ONE that can teach us the truth about the world.

Can you tell me of any other methodology that comes close?

thaiboxerken · 14th August 2009, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by JetLeg

My point. Scientists think THEIR method of discovering facts about nature is THE ONLY ONE that works.

It seems to be the most consistent. No other method even comes close.

rwguinn · 14th August 2009, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

It seems to be the most consistent. No other method even comes close.

It has certainly been the only one that actually works every time.

Piggy · 14th August 2009, 07:28 PM

I went down to the lab and got baptised today. They gave me my own copy of the Principia with my name in gold leaf on the front.

Now I have to bring at least 6 of my friends over to the observatory on Saturday night for the meteor shower.

I like it down at the lab. They give me granola bars and let me do precips in test tubes and they talk to me about Carl Sagan. They've got a big picture of Carl up on the wall and when the bell rings we all recite Pale Blue Dot. They ring the bell every couple of hours.

They said if anyone at home or at school starts talking about things that aren't scientific, you know like cool bands or sports or what kind of car we want when we get our license, I should just stop listening and walk away, and when I see those kids in private I should quote to them from the Principia and invite them over to the observatory so they can see the meteor shower.

I don't really understand much in the Principia, but they say that's ok, the more I read it the better I'll understand, and some of it even they don't understand with their minds, but it speaks to their hearts.

Oh, and I have to donate part of my allowance. I give them the part I used to spend on gum and Mad Magazine. I don't really need them anymore, now that I get the granola bars and have the Principia to read.

This year I want to go to science camp. All the older boys down at the lab go, and some of the older girls dropped by last time I was there and said how they don't really hang around with boys who haven't been, cause they're not as grown up. Some of the girls were really cute!

I'm going through all my t-shirts now, and separating out all the ones that aren't scientific, like the ones with bands on them or football teams, which is pretty much all of them. I'm gonna donate them. I don't know how I feel about that, because I'm afraid it might mislead some other kid somewhere, but the post-doc told me not to worry, they'll go somewhere where nobody speaks Engilsh.

I guess I'll have to get some science t-shirts now. They don't really have any around here, but the post-doc said it was ok, they'd take me to some conferences where they give you shirts just for going! That's gonna be cool!

I don't know about not being able to hang out with my friends anymore, but I guess I'll make new friends, maybe with some of the older girls once I've been to science camp. That would be really great. But it's kinda scary, too.

I feel sorry for my friends who haven't been baptised or read the Principia. I think once they see the meteors and do some precips, though, they'll see the light. And they'll know how fast it travels! LOL

Anyway, I gotta get all these t-shirts off the bed and recite my atomic table and hit the sack. I'm starting my morning evolutional tomorrow. We meet out at the flagpole before school and someone reads a passage from Origin of Species. I hope I don't mess up when it's my turn.

But everything is gonna be all right. After all, this is the day that the Big Bang hath made!

thaiboxerken · 14th August 2009, 07:31 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

It has certainly been the only one that actually works every time.

Well, not every time.. but when it fails, it's the only method that corrects it. It is a self correcting mechanism because it is purely about discovering knowledge, and not dictating it.

Eyeron · 14th August 2009, 07:32 PM

Michael Jackson is a cult.

Ron_Tomkins · 14th August 2009, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

I went down to the lab and got baptised today. They gave me my own copy of the Principia with my name in gold leaf on the front.

Now I have to bring at least 6 of my friends over to the observatory on Saturday night for the meteor shower.

I like it down at the lab. They give me granola bars and let me do precips in test tubes and they talk to me about Carl Sagan. They've got a big picture of Carl up on the wall and when the bell rings we all recite Pale Blue Dot. They ring the bell every couple of hours.

They said if anyone at home or at school starts talking about things that aren't scientific, you know like cool bands or sports or what kind of car we want when we get our license, I should just stop listening and walk away, and when I see those kids in private I should quote to them from the Principia and invite them over to the observatory so they can see the meteor shower.

I don't really understand much in the Principia, but they say that's ok, the more I read it the better I'll understand, and some of it even they don't understand with their minds, but it speaks to their hearts.

Oh, and I have to donate part of my allowance. I give them the part I used to spend on gum and Mad Magazine. I don't really need them anymore, now that I get the granola bars and have the Principia to read.

This year I want to go to science camp. All the older boys down at the lab go, and some of the older girls dropped by last time I was there and said how they don't really hang around with boys who haven't been, cause they're not as grown up. Some of the girls were really cute!

I'm going through all my t-shirts now, and separating out all the ones that aren't scientific, like the ones with bands on them or football teams, which is pretty much all of them. I'm gonna donate them. I don't know how I feel about that, because I'm afraid it might mislead some other kid somewhere, but the post-doc told me not to worry, they'll go somewhere where nobody speaks Engilsh.

I guess I'll have to get some science t-shirts now. They don't really have any around here, but the post-doc said it was ok, they'd take me to some conferences where they give you shirts just for going! That's gonna be cool!

I don't know about not being able to hang out with my friends anymore, but I guess I'll make new friends, maybe with some of the older girls once I've been to science camp. That would be really great. But it's kinda scary, too.

I feel sorry for my friends who haven't been baptised or read the Principia. I think once they see the meteors and do some precips, though, they'll see the light. And they'll know how fast it travels! LOL

Anyway, I gotta get all these t-shirts off the bed and recite my atomic table and hit the sack. I'm starting my morning evolutional tomorrow. We meet out at the flagpole before school and someone reads a passage from Origin of Species. I hope I don't mess up when it's my turn.

But everything is gonna be all right. After all, this is the day that the Big Bang hath made!

Nice work
Woody Allen would be proud

Elizabeth I · 14th August 2009, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

I went down to the lab and got baptised today. They gave me my own copy of the Principia with my name in gold leaf on the front.

Now I have to bring at least 6 of my friends over to the observatory on Saturday night for the meteor shower.

I like it down at the lab. They give me granola bars and let me do precips in test tubes and they talk to me about Carl Sagan. They've got a big picture of Carl up on the wall and when the bell rings we all recite Pale Blue Dot. They ring the bell every couple of hours. <snipped to save space>

Nominated.

Richard Masters · 14th August 2009, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Piggy

...

This year I want to go to science camp. All the older boys down at the lab go, and some of the older girls dropped by last time I was there and said how they don't really hang around with boys who haven't been, cause they're not as grown up. Some of the girls were really cute!

I'm going through all my t-shirts now, and separating out all the ones that aren't scientific, like the ones with bands on them or football teams, which is pretty much all of them. I'm gonna donate them. I don't know how I feel about that, because I'm afraid it might mislead some other kid somewhere, but the post-doc told me not to worry, they'll go somewhere where nobody speaks Engilsh.

...

Excellent, all of it.

13th August 2009, 09:52 AM	#201
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	__
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Last edited by JetLeg; 13th August 2009 at 09:53 AM.

13th August 2009, 09:55 AM	#202
Dave Rogers The Unbanned TLA Winner Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Notlob Posts: 9,899	Originally Posted by JetLeg I agree that you question the current theories, but you don't question the scientific method. Well, since the scientific method is that you question the current theories, then the only alternative would be to accept current theories without question. But that's part of the scientific method too; if new data arrives which appears to contradict current theories, then we must always consider the possibility that we're wrong, and actually it doesn't. So, in effect, questioning the scientific method is part of the scientific method. Dave
	__________________ "I guess for Truthers the great thing about Google is that it abolishes context automatically, thus saving your precious reserves of stupid for more important tasks." - Dr. Adequate GENERATION 6: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

13th August 2009, 09:58 AM	#203
Pardalis Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montréal Posts: 20,674	Originally Posted by Pardalis JetLeg, tell me what is wrong about this: How is that not a valid way to get to the truth? And, as asked multiple times in the thread, do you have something better to propose? Originally Posted by JetLeg __ I'll take that as your answer.
	__________________ "It is best to change your point of view in response to reality than to insist reality has it wrong because it doesn't agree with your point of view." aggle-rithm "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin "All we know is that we know much less and less, but at least we know less and less about much more and more" Christopher Hitchens

13th August 2009, 10:01 AM	#204
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414	Pure_Argent 's post #166 about christianity - do you think that the logic is valid & the premises sound there?
JetLeg Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,414

13th August 2009, 10:02 AM	#205
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by JetLeg Pure_Argent 's post #166 about christianity - do you think that the logic is valid & the premises sound there? No.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

13th August 2009, 10:07 AM	#206
Sun Countess Appearance of intelligence Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,239	JetLeg, do you honestly believe that a cult is defined solely by its claim to have the only way to the truth about nature? What really differentiates cult membership* from the pursuance of a hobby or a profession? Cult members are asked to cut off ties to their family and friends. Cult members are asked to give all (or most) their belongings and money to the cult. Cult members are asked to continue giving their earnings to the cult. Cult members are (often) asked to live in a communal setting or area. Cult members have a distinct leader from whom they receive their instruction and knowledge. Cult members are asked to recruit members during their unpaid free time, often by handing out pamphlets. In contrast: Scientists, science students, and science hobbyists can have family and friends from outside science. Science doesn't require that its "members" give money to the leadership. In fact, many scientists are paid for their work! They don't have to give up their earnings, live in a communal setting, spend their free time shilling for the cult, or answer to a central leader. *When I think of cults, I think of Jonestown, the Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, Scientologists, Heavensgate, and David Koresh's group. I think many mainstream religions have many of the same earmarks as cults, but have reached a level of societal acceptance, so their members no longer require intensive brainwashing or separation from non-adherents in order to continue their monetary commitment or obedience to the leadership.

13th August 2009, 10:11 AM	#207
Sunray Breaker Critical Thinker Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Denver Posts: 466	Quote: Science is a cult. I'm sure whatever religion you're trying to defend is too...Difference with science and most "cults" is we encourage heresy in the name of truth. Quote: 1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand. Just because you don't have enough ritalin in science class doesn't mean it's a secret...It just means you should read more. Quote: 2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only. The youngest person to have a scientific article published was (if I recall) 12 years old...She debunked telekinesis with a double blind study...Oh, and she most certainly wasn't a card carrying scientists yet. Allow me to clear this one up...Only people presenting ACTUAL SCIENCE can get published in a SCIENCE magazine...Fair enough is you ask me. Quote: 3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science. Members of any school of thought are encouraged to dedicate their lives to it...Be it philosophy, science, religion, etc....Big deal!!! Quote: 4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science. Considering all the damage done by people enlightening others to completely fabricated lies, someone needs to spread actual, varifiable truth...I wish we had MORE scientists working on this. Quote: 5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth. Can you prove otherwise? If not, you're probably just jealous of our consistancy and accuracy. added: Quote: 1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right. Right...because this doesn't also happen with political parties, mainstream religions, corporatations and right own down to the individual human ego...What exactly is your faith? What all knowing source has you convinced that science some how screwed it all up? Quote: 2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature). Ah...there's your key difference there between a cult and science...Discovering. Cults don't discover, they merely take someone elses word for it and use their cognitive biases to draw conclusions from random coincidence. Where as science, even after initial discovery, will still recreate the process, over and over, until the answer presents itself...There is no one book for science, because it changes so much...A cult has a very narrow world view. Science has one of teh broadest of worldviews known to man kind. Quote: 3. Science is a cult. And whatever belief system you're currently subscribing to is probably one too. And a much worse one at that.

13th August 2009, 10:50 AM	#208
JFrankA Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 2,758	You still haven't answered this comment made by me and a lot others on this this thread, namely your logic is such that: Originally Posted by JFrankA by your logic: 1. Only Jetleg thinks that his way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right. 2. Jetleg thinks so about his method (whenit comes to discovering truths truths about nature). Thus Jetleg is a cult. 1 is true, 2 is true. Here's the difference between science and you. You (Jetleg) insists that your truth is THE ONLY ONE that is right. Science doesn't. It questions, it asks, it tests and if something is wrong, it throws it out no matter how many people like the theory. Science also says "I don't know". A lot. If something says "I don't know" then it can't have a truth that is THE ONLY ONE that is right. You haven't done that. Instead, you've manipulated the facts and definitions, and done every trick you can to prove that you are right. Therefore, by your logic, you are a cult...
	__________________ "You're a complete moron. You shouldn't be allowed to loiter here." - Southwind17 "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

13th August 2009, 12:30 PM	#209
Lrrr Stealth Hug Ninja Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: North of Reality Posts: 118	Originally Posted by Piggy Why do folks who can't use logic insist on throwing around the names of fallacies like rice at a wedding? Ad simile attack!
	__________________ “Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.” - Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes

13th August 2009, 02:43 PM	#210
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,594	Anyone can be become a scientist. Then any of those can use the tools of science (and methods) to conduct sciency things. Unlike a cult, you can go and see what they're up to at any time, or if you're a scientist you can leave any time. If you do it wrong, then your peers will call you on it. In a cult you have a leader instead, and you don't dare call them on anything. Science is self correcting, unlike a cult. Science is in no way, shape, or form like a cult.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it! Last edited by Eos of the Eons; 13th August 2009 at 02:50 PM.

13th August 2009, 02:48 PM	#211
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons Anyone can be become a scientist. Then any of those can use the tools of science (and methods) to conduct sciency things. Unlike a cult, you can go and see what they're up to at any time, or if you're a scientist you can leave any time. If you do it wrong, then your peers will call you on it. In a cult you have a leader instead, and you don't dare call them on anything. Science is self correcting, unlike a cult. Science is in now way, shape, or form like a cult. Don't be silly. Science meets Jetleg's arbitrarily chosen criteria that makes plumbing a cult and we all know he/she thinks that his/her way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

13th August 2009, 02:50 PM	#212
themusicteacher Muse Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Burque, NM Posts: 552	It seems as though this faulty premise has been fully exposed regardless of JL's level of acceptance to defeat. Time to move on?

13th August 2009, 02:53 PM	#213
Eos of the Eons Mad Scientist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Alberta Posts: 13,594	I guess real cults need a new name then. Um. Cult now just means being part of any group at all. Woonatics. That is when a leader forms a loony group where you have to give up your family and wordly items, stop communicating with anyone but group members, and all have the same religion/dogma.
	__________________ Motion affecting a measuring device does not affect what is actually being measured, except to inaccurately measure it. the immaterial world doesn't matter, cause it ain't matter-Jeff Corey my karma ran over my dogma-vbloke The Lateral Truth: An Apostate's Bible Stories by Rebecca Bradley, read it!

13th August 2009, 03:26 PM	#214
BobTheDonkey Master Poster Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 2,396	Originally Posted by Sun Countess When I think of cults, I think of Jonestown, the Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, Scientologists, Heavensgate, and David Koresh's group. I think many mainstream religions have many of the same earmarks as cults, but have reached a level of societal acceptance, so their members no longer require intensive brainwashing or separation from non-adherents in order to continue their monetary commitment or obedience to the leadership. Ahhh, but that's why mainstream organized religions are so dangerous. They don't appear to be cults. Mainstream organized Religions engage heavily in brainwashing (AWANAs, Bible Study, youth groups, etc), encourage members to recruit new members (amongst their families, as well as strangers on the street), frown on members being socially active with "heathens" (outside of recruitment, of course), and encourage blind following of the leader. If Scientology was more mainstream (socially accepted), would it really be any less of a cult? Of course not. Social acceptance does not provide any discount to the cult nature of mainstream organized religion.

13th August 2009, 03:26 PM	#215
JFrankA Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 2,758	Awwww.... I've always wanted to have my own cult.... Wait!!!! I can fulfill the criteria!!!!! Let's see...uhm... "What I teach is the truth and THE ONLY ONE that is right and everyone who follows me think about my teachings and follow my method all the time without question." See? So? Can I please have my own cult?? Huh? Can I? Huh? Huh? Please??? Can I??? Please????? Huh??????
	__________________ "You're a complete moron. You shouldn't be allowed to loiter here." - Southwind17 "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

13th August 2009, 03:52 PM	#216
Paul Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,836	Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons I guess real cults need a new name then. Um. Cult now just means being part of any group at all. Woonatics. That's way too cute, like a puppy. Awww, look at the ickle woonatic he's sooo cute... does he want his tummy tickled? yes he does, yes he does
	__________________ stopsylviabrowne operationclambake badastronomy

13th August 2009, 04:00 PM	#217
Paul Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,836	Originally Posted by JFrankA See? So? Can I please have my own cult?? Huh? Can I? Huh? Huh? Please??? Can I??? Please????? Huh?????? You said you really wanted a pyramid scheme for Christmas, you said you'd look after it properly this time. Look what happened to that, we had to drag it's stinking corpse out to the woods and bury it before the neighbours complained.
	__________________ stopsylviabrowne operationclambake badastronomy

13th August 2009, 04:03 PM	#218
JFrankA Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 2,758	Originally Posted by Paul You said you really wanted a pyramid scheme for Christmas, you said you'd look after it properly this time. Look what happened to that, we had to drag it's stinking corpse out to the woods and bury it before the neighbours complained. Yeah, but ...but.... I had to spend so much on Amway products I couldn't keep that up....... A cult is different.... I don't have to spend anything and I can come up with a truth method so that they give ME money... C'mon.... please????? ......I'll wash it everyday.... promise.....
	__________________ "You're a complete moron. You shouldn't be allowed to loiter here." - Southwind17 "More truth is in a single issue of Mad than a year of Time." - Gord in Toronto GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

13th August 2009, 05:47 PM	#219
Paul Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,836	Originally Posted by JFrankA C'mon.... please????? ......I'll wash it everyday.... promise..... OK, OK. But, you have to clean up after your adherents, you will not brainwash anyone we know, no abusing your position of absolute power, and if the FBI ask, we thought you were running a book group.
	__________________ stopsylviabrowne operationclambake badastronomy

13th August 2009, 06:15 PM	#220
LightningStrike Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 177	Cults are any organisation that requires a belief to maintain their ideological structure. We live in a culture of belief.

13th August 2009, 06:35 PM	#221
paximperium Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2008 Location: Silicon Valley-Stuck between Google and Apple Posts: 10,017	Originally Posted by LightningStrike Cults are any organisation that requires a belief to maintain their ideological structure. We live in a culture of belief. Which continues to render the term "cult" completely and utterly meaningless.
	__________________ "The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age." -Carl Sagan "They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it's not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."-Terry Pratchett

13th August 2009, 06:50 PM	#222
LightningStrike Thinker Join Date: May 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 177	Originally Posted by paximperium Which continues to render the term "cult" completely and utterly meaningless. Or perhaps completely significant?

13th August 2009, 07:31 PM	#223
Paul Graduate Poster Join Date: May 2004 Location: UK Posts: 1,836	Originally Posted by LightningStrike Or perhaps completely significant? Nope.
	__________________ stopsylviabrowne operationclambake badastronomy

13th August 2009, 07:35 PM	#224
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 10,717	Kittens are a cult.
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?

14th August 2009, 12:59 AM	#225
KarlG Critical Thinker Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Cumbria, UK Posts: 416	Originally Posted by JetLeg Science is a cult. 1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand. 2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only. 3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science. 4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science. 5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth. added: 1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right. 2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature). 3. Science is a cult. Do you see a problem with the premises, or with the logic? The premises are true, and the logic valid. Just to demolish point number two, may i introduce Emily Rosa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa
	__________________ “If God wanted us to believe in him, he’d exist.” ~ Linda Smith. Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad

14th August 2009, 06:15 AM	#226
!Kaggen Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Home Posts: 1,532	Originally Posted by JetLeg Science is a cult. 1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand. 2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only. 3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science. 4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science. 5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth. added: 1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right. 2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature). 3. Science is a cult. Do you see a problem with the premises, or with the logic? The premises are true, and the logic valid. The concept "science" refers to a system of acquiring knowledge using the scientific method. The concept "cult" refers to a system of religious practices and beliefs. Therefore the concept "cult" cannot be equivalent to the concept "science", since a cult does not entail a system of acquiring knowledge using the scientific method and science does not entail a system of religious practices and beliefs. That is the theory at least. I admit not many know the difference.

14th August 2009, 06:42 AM	#227
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 6,089	Originally Posted by Eos of the Eons Anyone can be become a scientist. Then any of those can use the tools of science (and methods) to conduct sciency things. Unlike a cult, you can go and see what they're up to at any time, or if you're a scientist you can leave any time. If you do it wrong, then your peers will call you on it. In a cult you have a leader instead, and you don't dare call them on anything. Science is self correcting, unlike a cult. Science is in no way, shape, or form like a cult. A scientist can publicly question the "Leader" (preeminent scientist in the field), point out his/her failings, and still remain a scientist! Amazing anti-cult, there!
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

14th August 2009, 06:50 AM	#228
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 10,312	Originally Posted by Piggy Kittens are a cult. You sure spell things funny round your way. We say "kittens are cute" here. Or perhaps you meant, kittens are occult. Behind that soft and fluffy exterior, what nameless horror lurks?
	__________________ The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell I'd eat the arse out of a dead mole if it offered a fighting chance.Terry Pratchett The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.Thomas Jefferson

14th August 2009, 07:03 AM	#229
Bob Klase Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Largo, FL Posts: 2,680	Originally Posted by KarlG Just to demolish point number two, may i introduce Emily Rosa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa But she was a scientist. I can prove it: Emily_Rosa See- she was published in a Scientific Journal Only scientists are published in Scientific Journals Therefore she is a scientist!

14th August 2009, 06:45 PM	#230
Elizabeth I Olympic Equestrian Wannabe Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Defending the Alamo Posts: 6,447	Originally Posted by KarlG Just to demolish point number two, may i introduce Emily Rosa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Rosa So? Just proves she (and all those other kids mentioned up-thread) have been indoctrinated and brainwashed by the cult.
	__________________ • There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. - Winston Churchill • Never wrestle with a pig - you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. • My blog: Pardon me, may I ask...

14th August 2009, 06:58 PM	#231
Ron_Tomkins Satan's Helper Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: NYC Posts: 18,895	Originally Posted by JetLeg Science is a cult. 1) Scientists use a special language that only members of the cult understand. 2) Only scientists are allowed to submit articles to scientific journals. Anyone who is not from their denomination will not be allowed! Scientific journals accept articles from people who share their faith only. 3) Members of the cult are encouraged to dedicate their whole life to science. 4) Scientists look at themselves as they are those that possess "true knowledge" unlike all the others. Some of them think that they have a mission to "enlighten" the world by teaching them science. 5) Scientists think that when it comes to nature, their method is the ONLY one can lead to the truth. added: 1. Only cults think that their way of thinking is THE ONLY ONE that is right. 2. Scientists think so about the scientific method (whenit comes to discovering truths about nature). 3. Science is a cult. Do you see a problem with the premises, or with the logic? The premises are true, and the logic valid. Is this yet another attempt at trying to imply that Science is just another form of Religion? If not, then what in the hell is the point of this thread?
	__________________ "I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan" Carl Sagan

14th August 2009, 07:08 PM	#232
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 14,728	Originally Posted by JetLeg But the scientific method is THE ONLY ONE that can teach us the truth about the world. Can you tell me of any other methodology that comes close?
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

14th August 2009, 07:22 PM	#233
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 14,728	Originally Posted by JetLeg My point. Scientists think THEIR method of discovering facts about nature is THE ONLY ONE that works. It seems to be the most consistent. No other method even comes close.
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

14th August 2009, 07:24 PM	#234
rwguinn Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 6,089	Originally Posted by thaiboxerken It seems to be the most consistent. No other method even comes close. It has certainly been the only one that actually works every time.
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."

14th August 2009, 07:28 PM	#235
Piggy Unlicensed street skeptic Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ralph's side of the island Posts: 10,717	I went down to the lab and got baptised today. They gave me my own copy of the Principia with my name in gold leaf on the front. Now I have to bring at least 6 of my friends over to the observatory on Saturday night for the meteor shower. I like it down at the lab. They give me granola bars and let me do precips in test tubes and they talk to me about Carl Sagan. They've got a big picture of Carl up on the wall and when the bell rings we all recite Pale Blue Dot. They ring the bell every couple of hours. They said if anyone at home or at school starts talking about things that aren't scientific, you know like cool bands or sports or what kind of car we want when we get our license, I should just stop listening and walk away, and when I see those kids in private I should quote to them from the Principia and invite them over to the observatory so they can see the meteor shower. I don't really understand much in the Principia, but they say that's ok, the more I read it the better I'll understand, and some of it even they don't understand with their minds, but it speaks to their hearts. Oh, and I have to donate part of my allowance. I give them the part I used to spend on gum and Mad Magazine. I don't really need them anymore, now that I get the granola bars and have the Principia to read. This year I want to go to science camp. All the older boys down at the lab go, and some of the older girls dropped by last time I was there and said how they don't really hang around with boys who haven't been, cause they're not as grown up. Some of the girls were really cute! I'm going through all my t-shirts now, and separating out all the ones that aren't scientific, like the ones with bands on them or football teams, which is pretty much all of them. I'm gonna donate them. I don't know how I feel about that, because I'm afraid it might mislead some other kid somewhere, but the post-doc told me not to worry, they'll go somewhere where nobody speaks Engilsh. I guess I'll have to get some science t-shirts now. They don't really have any around here, but the post-doc said it was ok, they'd take me to some conferences where they give you shirts just for going! That's gonna be cool! I don't know about not being able to hang out with my friends anymore, but I guess I'll make new friends, maybe with some of the older girls once I've been to science camp. That would be really great. But it's kinda scary, too. I feel sorry for my friends who haven't been baptised or read the Principia. I think once they see the meteors and do some precips, though, they'll see the light. And they'll know how fast it travels! LOL Anyway, I gotta get all these t-shirts off the bed and recite my atomic table and hit the sack. I'm starting my morning evolutional tomorrow. We meet out at the flagpole before school and someone reads a passage from Origin of Species. I hope I don't mess up when it's my turn. But everything is gonna be all right. After all, this is the day that the Big Bang hath made!
	__________________ . How can you expect to be rescued if you don’t put first things first and act proper?