Clovis first, Salutrians, spearpoints

pipelineaudio · 2nd November 2009, 09:00 PM

The idea that some of the early settlers of America may have come from europe really fascinates me. I've seen some neat stuff on the science channel, but not much else.

When I see it brought up in forums it quickly turns into "OMFGZORZ you dare to compare european speartips with American ones? You are a NAZI!"

Without stepping on any PC toes ( I don't even understand how in the world this can get political but nevermind ), where can I find out what the latest on this subject is?

Travis · 2nd November 2009, 10:12 PM

OMFGZORZ you dare to compare Asian speartips with American ones? You are a Communist!

Dancing David · 3rd November 2009, 05:23 AM

Um, the real issue is the dating of the spear points, some people feel that the americas were settled earlier than others.

But the largest possibility is that asian/artic peoples are the ones that settled the americas.

Other than Vinland and the portuguese fisherman.

ponderingturtle · 3rd November 2009, 07:17 AM

Genetic testing has shown that at the least most native americans stemed from Asian decent.

pipelineaudio · 3rd November 2009, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Genetic testing has shown that at the least most native americans stemed from Asian decent.

Yeah from what I saw there were 4 lines of mitochondrial DNA markers, with 3 of them closely matching lines still in the siberian area accounting for 99% or more of the indigenous populace. The fourth line seemed to be from southern france from 16,000 years ago or so, and one claim was that is where the clovis technology had come from while the asian peoples had a very different bone tech spearpoint with many tiny rocks embedded in them.

I don't know how the arrowheads I find around here fit into this. They don't look anything like that clovis stuff, but they're definitely not bone. They're often translucent black rocks, like Pele's tears or obsidian or something

ponderingturtle · 3rd November 2009, 01:16 PM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Yeah from what I saw there were 4 lines of mitochondrial DNA markers, with 3 of them closely matching lines still in the siberian area accounting for 99% or more of the indigenous populace. The fourth line seemed to be from southern france from 16,000 years ago or so, and one claim was that is where the clovis technology had come from while the asian peoples had a very different bone tech spearpoint with many tiny rocks embedded in them.

I don't know how the arrowheads I find around here fit into this. They don't look anything like that clovis stuff, but they're definitely not bone. They're often translucent black rocks, like Pele's tears or obsidian or something

I saw that claimed on NOVA, so it seems pretty reputable, but I wouldn't put that much stock in it. I don't know how well reproduced the finding was.

Marduk · 3rd November 2009, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

I saw that claimed on NOVA, so it seems pretty reputable, but I wouldn't put that much stock in it. I don't know how well reproduced the finding was.

the Nat geo genographic project proved that the 4 main mtdna haplogroups that make up Native Americans are A,B,C,D, with a later smattering of X
https://genographic.nationalgeograph.../en/atlas.html
click on genetic markers (bottom right)
these are all east asian lineages.
you don't have to rely on NOVA
I wouldn't

pipelineaudio · 3rd November 2009, 05:29 PM

The lines on that map make it seem like the Salutrian technology could have gone all the way east from france to asia then to the americas instead of just going west. Is that the more evidenced and accepted version?

Marduk · 3rd November 2009, 07:05 PM

from wiki

Quote:

In short, the idea of a Clovis-Solutrean link remains rather controversial and does not enjoy wide acceptance. The hypothesis is challenged by large gaps in time between the Clovis and Solutrean eras, a lack of evidence of Solutrean seafaring, lack of specific Solutrean features in Clovis technology, and other issues

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutre...an_archaeology

oh and its "Solutrean"

ponderingturtle · 3rd November 2009, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Marduk

the Nat geo genographic project proved that the 4 main mtdna haplogroups that make up Native Americans are A,B,C,D, with a later smattering of X
https://genographic.nationalgeograph.../en/atlas.html
click on genetic markers (bottom right)
these are all east asian lineages.
you don't have to rely on NOVA
I wouldn't

Well except for X, which is mostly European. They just show the line going east but don't have evidence for X in Siberia based on your own link.

Marduk · 3rd November 2009, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Well except for X, which is mostly European. They just show the line going east but don't have evidence for X in Siberia based on your own link.

the genographic project is simplified for practical reasons
theres a very enlightening thread on X here, which explains all the subclades
http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1...769#msg-440769
the thread starter is Bernard Ortiz De Montellano who is professor of anthropology at Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan.

wiki also has an easier to understand page on X here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X

pipelineaudio · 3rd November 2009, 09:33 PM

Awesome! Thank you, that's what I was looking for, but Travis' play on words was pretty kick ass and made the thread worth it early on

Dancing David · 4th November 2009, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

The lines on that map make it seem like the Salutrian technology could have gone all the way east from france to asia then to the americas instead of just going west. Is that the more evidenced and accepted version?

The dispersal of tool kits is interesting but rarely indicative of who actually made them. There are reasons to want to have 'leaf points' but a lot of it depends on the material at hand.

Marduk · 4th November 2009, 08:17 AM

I have 2 peer reviewed genetics papers on Native American haplogroup lineages, if anyone wants a copy just message me your e mail address

2nd November 2009, 09:00 PM	#1
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,164	Clovis first, Salutrians, spearpoints The idea that some of the early settlers of America may have come from europe really fascinates me. I've seen some neat stuff on the science channel, but not much else. When I see it brought up in forums it quickly turns into "OMFGZORZ you dare to compare european speartips with American ones? You are a NAZI!" Without stepping on any PC toes ( I don't even understand how in the world this can get political but nevermind ), where can I find out what the latest on this subject is?
	__________________ Can someone give me a better name for SLAG FAIRY?

2nd November 2009, 10:12 PM	#2
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tuolumne City, CA Posts: 6,269	OMFGZORZ you dare to compare Asian speartips with American ones? You are a Communist!
	__________________ "Because WE ARE IGNORANT OF 911 FACTS, WE DEMAND PROOF" -- Douglas Herman on Rense.com Don't forget to nominate November Stundies and vote in the October Stundie Finals.

3rd November 2009, 05:23 AM	#3
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 17,342	Um, the real issue is the dating of the spear points, some people feel that the americas were settled earlier than others. But the largest possibility is that asian/artic peoples are the ones that settled the americas. Other than Vinland and the portuguese fisherman.
	__________________ I’m not ready to make nice, I’m not ready to back down, I’m still mad as hell and I don’t have time to go round and round and round, It’s too late to make it right I probably wouldn’t if I could, ‘Cause I’m mad as hell, Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should- Dixie Chicks

3rd November 2009, 07:17 AM	#4
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 17,597	Genetic testing has shown that at the least most native americans stemed from Asian decent.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd November 2009, 12:57 PM	#5
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,164	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Genetic testing has shown that at the least most native americans stemed from Asian decent. Yeah from what I saw there were 4 lines of mitochondrial DNA markers, with 3 of them closely matching lines still in the siberian area accounting for 99% or more of the indigenous populace. The fourth line seemed to be from southern france from 16,000 years ago or so, and one claim was that is where the clovis technology had come from while the asian peoples had a very different bone tech spearpoint with many tiny rocks embedded in them. I don't know how the arrowheads I find around here fit into this. They don't look anything like that clovis stuff, but they're definitely not bone. They're often translucent black rocks, like Pele's tears or obsidian or something
	__________________ Can someone give me a better name for SLAG FAIRY?

3rd November 2009, 01:16 PM	#6
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 17,597	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Yeah from what I saw there were 4 lines of mitochondrial DNA markers, with 3 of them closely matching lines still in the siberian area accounting for 99% or more of the indigenous populace. The fourth line seemed to be from southern france from 16,000 years ago or so, and one claim was that is where the clovis technology had come from while the asian peoples had a very different bone tech spearpoint with many tiny rocks embedded in them. I don't know how the arrowheads I find around here fit into this. They don't look anything like that clovis stuff, but they're definitely not bone. They're often translucent black rocks, like Pele's tears or obsidian or something I saw that claimed on NOVA, so it seems pretty reputable, but I wouldn't put that much stock in it. I don't know how well reproduced the finding was.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd November 2009, 05:20 PM	#7
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle I saw that claimed on NOVA, so it seems pretty reputable, but I wouldn't put that much stock in it. I don't know how well reproduced the finding was. the Nat geo genographic project proved that the 4 main mtdna haplogroups that make up Native Americans are A,B,C,D, with a later smattering of X https://genographic.nationalgeograph.../en/atlas.html click on genetic markers (bottom right) these are all east asian lineages. you don't have to rely on NOVA I wouldn't
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

3rd November 2009, 05:29 PM	#8
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,164	The lines on that map make it seem like the Salutrian technology could have gone all the way east from france to asia then to the americas instead of just going west. Is that the more evidenced and accepted version?
	__________________ Can someone give me a better name for SLAG FAIRY?

3rd November 2009, 07:05 PM	#9
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	from wiki Quote: In short, the idea of a Clovis-Solutrean link remains rather controversial and does not enjoy wide acceptance. The hypothesis is challenged by large gaps in time between the Clovis and Solutrean eras, a lack of evidence of Solutrean seafaring, lack of specific Solutrean features in Clovis technology, and other issues http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solutre...an_archaeology oh and its "Solutrean"
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

3rd November 2009, 07:33 PM	#10
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Ossining NY Posts: 17,597	Originally Posted by Marduk the Nat geo genographic project proved that the 4 main mtdna haplogroups that make up Native Americans are A,B,C,D, with a later smattering of X https://genographic.nationalgeograph.../en/atlas.html click on genetic markers (bottom right) these are all east asian lineages. you don't have to rely on NOVA I wouldn't Well except for X, which is mostly European. They just show the line going east but don't have evidence for X in Siberia based on your own link.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

3rd November 2009, 08:40 PM	#11
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Well except for X, which is mostly European. They just show the line going east but don't have evidence for X in Siberia based on your own link. the genographic project is simplified for practical reasons theres a very enlightening thread on X here, which explains all the subclades http://www.hallofmaat.com/read.php?1...769#msg-440769 the thread starter is Bernard Ortiz De Montellano who is professor of anthropology at Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan. wiki also has an easier to understand page on X here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)

3rd November 2009, 09:33 PM	#12
pipelineaudio Master Poster Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 2,164	Awesome! Thank you, that's what I was looking for, but Travis' play on words was pretty kick ass and made the thread worth it early on
	__________________ Can someone give me a better name for SLAG FAIRY?

4th November 2009, 05:39 AM	#13
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 17,342	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio The lines on that map make it seem like the Salutrian technology could have gone all the way east from france to asia then to the americas instead of just going west. Is that the more evidenced and accepted version? The dispersal of tool kits is interesting but rarely indicative of who actually made them. There are reasons to want to have 'leaf points' but a lot of it depends on the material at hand.
	__________________ I’m not ready to make nice, I’m not ready to back down, I’m still mad as hell and I don’t have time to go round and round and round, It’s too late to make it right I probably wouldn’t if I could, ‘Cause I’m mad as hell, Can’t bring myself to do what it is you think I should- Dixie Chicks

4th November 2009, 08:17 AM	#14
Marduk Dragon Killer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Newbury, Berkshire Posts: 2,007	I have 2 peer reviewed genetics papers on Native American haplogroup lineages, if anyone wants a copy just message me your e mail address
	__________________ Senno Ecto Gama ĝae haš dug zae ama kibid "Stupid humans" (Wollery) "Kill all humans" (Bender) "for while heaven may be closed I am always open, even on Christmas." (Lucifer)