Lisbon Treaty ratified

Uzzy · 3rd November 2009, 08:57 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8340664.stm

Well, that's that then. Onwards President Blair. Funny how this tidying up exercise nets us a freaking President of the European Council now.

Thoughts?

Arcade22 · 3rd November 2009, 09:18 AM

It will be interesting living in the EUSSR...

Policenaut · 3rd November 2009, 09:28 AM

How do the members and the president get picked? And are there term limits?

parky76 · 3rd November 2009, 11:32 AM

i have no problem with an European Economic Union. But a political and social union?

why did you guys agree to this?

each country had to pass it by at least 50% in a national referendum right?

does the constitution say a state can secede and how they can do it?

Arcade22 · 3rd November 2009, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by parky76

each country had to pass it by at least 50% in a national referendum right?

I don't think so, the Swedish parliament voted for it here.

parky76 · 3rd November 2009, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

I don't think so, the Swedish parliament voted for it here.

well, that sux then. if my country joined a new political, social, and economic union with other countries, and tore down all visa and other border restrictions, I'd like it go to to a national referendum.

seems like you all just got played.

icerat · 3rd November 2009, 12:06 PM

I believe most (all?) countries had a referendum on that when they joined or formed the EU in the first place. The Lisbon Treaty doesn't really change that much.

Upchurch · 3rd November 2009, 12:27 PM

It's the cutting edge of politics in a very extraordinarily boring way. --Eddie Izzard

INRM · 3rd November 2009, 12:58 PM

What was done to Ireland was really just awful

icerat · 3rd November 2009, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by INRM

What was done to Ireland was really just awful

Which was what? Given the concessions they wanted to allay their fears? How is that awful?

commandlinegamer · 3rd November 2009, 02:47 PM

Good news for the Tories, though. They stopped sitting on the fence and were finally able to declare they weren't going to have a referendum.

parky76 · 3rd November 2009, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by icerat

I believe most (all?) countries had a referendum on that when they joined or formed the EU in the first place. The Lisbon Treaty doesn't really change that much.

as long as nations only joined the EU after a national referendum, that's fine.

i also believe that a nation should have the ability to secede from the Union, if they feel that the Union's direction and laws are just too wrong for its people.

does the Lisbon Treaty include anything about secession?

i mean, lets say in 25 years, the EU decides to start banning all Muslim immigrants. shouldn't an EU state have the ability to secede based on such an intolerant standpoint? I do.

Undesired Walrus · 3rd November 2009, 03:17 PM

Hooray! Here's a stronger, more efficient EU.

Originally Posted by parky76

well, that sux then. if my country joined a new political, social, and economic union with other countries, and tore down all visa and other border restrictions, I'd like it go to to a national referendum.

seems like you all just got played.

The people vote in general elections, and the new Parliament votes on the issue. If most of the British electorate had voted for a Eurosceptic party like the Tories, the Parliament would likely vote no.

Originally Posted by parky76

i mean, lets say in 25 years, the EU decides to start banning all Muslim immigrants. shouldn't an EU state have the ability to secede based on such an intolerant standpoint? I do.

Sure, with a general election.

Undesired Walrus · 3rd November 2009, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Arcade22

It will be interesting living in the EUSSR...

Interesting, but fictional.

parky76 · 3rd November 2009, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

Sure, with a general election.

what does that mean? the people have to put in an anti-EU party into power, and then the parliament of that country can vote to secede from the Union?

can u point to a source for this? i looked up the EU treaty and the treaty of Lisbon and found no stipulations for secession, only stipulations for non-application of certain EU laws to certain countries.

geni · 3rd November 2009, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

what does that mean? the people have to put in an anti-EU party into power, and then the parliament of that country can vote to secede from the Union?

There is no practical way to stop a country from leaving the EU.

Undesired Walrus · 3rd November 2009, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by parky76

what does that mean? the people have to put in an anti-EU party into power, and then the parliament of that country can vote to secede from the Union?

can u point to a source for this? i looked up the EU treaty and the treaty of Lisbon and found no stipulations for secession, only stipulations for non-application of certain EU laws to certain countries.

Sure. Article 49a I believe.

Quote:

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article　218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

Uzzy · 3rd November 2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

The people vote in general elections, and the new Parliament votes on the issue. If most of the British electorate had voted for a Eurosceptic party like the Tories, the Parliament would likely vote no.

Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. Funny how that didn't happen.

Now, a stronger, more efficient EU may be a good thing, but I wouldn't mind if it was something we democratically wanted. Actually having a referendum at some point on the EU would be a good thing. I never had a vote on one, I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held.

parky76 · 3rd November 2009, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held.

so, there WAS a referendum!!!

Uzzy · 3rd November 2009, 05:15 PM

Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group.

We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty. This has led to quite an undemocratic situation, especially when polls suggest a majority of people in the UK would like to leave the EU.

The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state.

Undesired Walrus · 3rd November 2009, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty

No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.

geni · 3rd November 2009, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. Funny how that didn't happen.

Now, a stronger, more efficient EU may be a good thing, but I wouldn't mind if it was something we democratically wanted. Actually having a referendum at some point on the EU would be a good thing. I never had a vote on one, I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held.

Referenda are unbritish. New labour may be something of a fan of them but that doesn't change the fact that historicaly they are more something people in other countries do.

parky76 · 3rd November 2009, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state.

so, its sorta like when Chancellor Palpatine decided to unilaterally reorganize the Galactic Republic into an Empire?

Giz · 3rd November 2009, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.

The Lisbon Treaty and the Constitution are so similar in content and effect that denying a referendum was a clear breach of the spirit of the manifesto promise. Semantic weasling by Labour.

Uzzy · 3rd November 2009, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.

So instead we get a Lisbon Treaty, which contains much of the text of the Constitution, so much so that Valéry Giscard d'Estaing freely admits it's the Constitution rewritten in a form that gets past the need for referendum. Regardless of that, a referendum was promised, and quibbling your way out of it doesn't exactly help in a) Making the EU seem more democratic or b) Making the EU more popular.

geni · 3rd November 2009, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

a) Making the EU seem more democratic or b) Making the EU more popular.

Considering what comes out of the council of ministers (you know the bit with all the domestic politicians) what makes you think either of those are an objective?

Giz · 3rd November 2009, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group.

We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty. This has led to quite an undemocratic situation, especially when polls suggest a majority of people in the UK would like to leave the EU.

Yeah, the original referendum was also sold to the British people on the basis of it being an economic union - not something that would be political.

Originally Posted by Uzzy

The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state.

Undemocratic is bad enough but we're being forced into a Union which is so corrupt that it's been unable to get it's accounts signed off by the auditors since 1994... !

Uzzy · 3rd November 2009, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by geni

Considering what comes out of the council of ministers (you know the bit with all the domestic politicians) what makes you think either of those are an objective?

I don't, and that rather worries me. If we are going to give them more and more power, knowing that they feel democracy and accountability is important might be a little reassuring.

geni · 3rd November 2009, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

I don't, and that rather worries me. If we are going to give them more and more power, knowing that they feel democracy and accountability is important might be a little reassuring.

Democracy is going up (more stuff ending up in the hands of the parliment rather than the buracracts). Accountability? Depends how you vote in the EU elections

Undesired Walrus · 4th November 2009, 02:00 AM

I wonder how many people who oppose the Lisbon Treaty have any idea what the hell it does, besides their idea that it creates some all-powerful President Blair.

Darat · 4th November 2009, 02:09 AM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group.

We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty.

...snip...

Sorry but that isn't true - The Labour party promised a referendum on the "Constitutional Treaty" not the "Lisbon Treaty" - the "Constitutional Treaty" was killed by "No" votes in several EU countries.

Darat · 4th November 2009, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus

I wonder how many people who oppose the Lisbon Treaty have any idea what the hell it does, besides their idea that it creates some all-powerful President Blair.

Very few people will have read it - in that way it is like the Constitutional Treaty! Which was a very badly named treaty being nothing like a constitution.

Giz · 4th November 2009, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Sorry but that isn't true - The Labour party promised a referendum on the "Constitutional Treaty" not the "Lisbon Treaty" - the "Constitutional Treaty" was killed by "No" votes in several EU countries.

That's semantics

Darat · 4th November 2009, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Giz

That's semantics

I disagree - I read both and they are certainly not the same treaty, yes they have lots in common but any treaty that was trying to make the EU more democratic would share that level of commonality.

ETA: And this by the way is not just my opinion, the High Court also concluded that the treaties were not the same.

geni · 4th November 2009, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

Very few people will have read it - in that way it is like the Constitutional Treaty! Which was a very badly named treaty being nothing like a constitution.

The treaty is practicly unreadable so objecting to people not reading it is somewhat unreasonable.

Darat · 4th November 2009, 11:35 AM

It's certainly not an easy read and you can download it along with the various treaties that it amends.

Uzzy · 4th November 2009, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

I disagree - I read both and they are certainly not the same treaty, yes they have lots in common but any treaty that was trying to make the EU more democratic would share that level of commonality.

ETA: And this by the way is not just my opinion, the High Court also concluded that the treaties were not the same.

And yet the man who designed the Constitution said the Lisbon Treaty was simply a repackaged version of the EU Constitution, in order to get around various countries need to hold a referendum on the issue. Funny how that's exactly what happened here with Labour. They promised a referendum, then wimped out of it. No courage of their convictions.

It'd be nice if we got a referendum on these transfer of powers to the EU, so that we can have a proper, informed debate on all the issues.

INRM · 4th November 2009, 12:23 PM

Icerat,

No, the fact that when they voted no, they kept holding referendum after referendum, until they said yes, and the fact that they put a lot of pressure on them to say yes, telling them that it wouldn't be good for them if they said no.

When people vote NO, it means NO. Not 'maybe we should hold referendum after referendum until they say YES".

INRM

Darat · 4th November 2009, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Uzzy

And yet the man who designed the Constitution said the Lisbon Treaty was simply a repackaged version of the EU Constitution, in order to get around various countries need to hold a referendum on the issue

...snip...

So it wasn't the same treaty....

Giz · 4th November 2009, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Darat

So it wasn't the same treaty....

"simply a repackaged version" = "same"

(Unless we are into semantics...)

3rd November 2009, 08:57 AM	#1
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	Lisbon Treaty ratified http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8340664.stm Well, that's that then. Onwards President Blair. Funny how this tidying up exercise nets us a freaking President of the European Council now. Thoughts?
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	__________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth!" Captain Jean-Luc Picard, The First Duty.

3rd November 2009, 09:18 AM	#2
Arcade22 Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 239	It will be interesting living in the EUSSR...
	__________________ Muhammad was married with a 9 year old who was mature mentally and also mature for sex. It is not "desecration" when you have sex with your wife. She was happy, what is your problem? ~IbnHazm~

3rd November 2009, 11:32 AM	#4
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11,797	i have no problem with an European Economic Union. But a political and social union? why did you guys agree to this? each country had to pass it by at least 50% in a national referendum right? does the constitution say a state can secede and how they can do it?
	__________________ "To doubt everything and to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions, both dispense with the need for thought" -Henri Poincare

3rd November 2009, 11:57 AM	#5
Arcade22 Thinker Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 239	Originally Posted by parky76 each country had to pass it by at least 50% in a national referendum right? I don't think so, the Swedish parliament voted for it here.
	__________________ Muhammad was married with a 9 year old who was mature mentally and also mature for sex. It is not "desecration" when you have sex with your wife. She was happy, what is your problem? ~IbnHazm~

3rd November 2009, 12:03 PM	#6
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11,797	Originally Posted by Arcade22 I don't think so, the Swedish parliament voted for it here. well, that sux then. if my country joined a new political, social, and economic union with other countries, and tore down all visa and other border restrictions, I'd like it go to to a national referendum. seems like you all just got played.
	__________________ "To doubt everything and to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions, both dispense with the need for thought" -Henri Poincare

3rd November 2009, 09:28 AM	#3
Policenaut Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Shadow Moses Island Posts: 1,201	How do the members and the president get picked? And are there term limits?

3rd November 2009, 12:06 PM	#7
icerat Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: stockholm, sweden Posts: 910	I believe most (all?) countries had a referendum on that when they joined or formed the EU in the first place. The Lisbon Treaty doesn't really change that much.

3rd November 2009, 12:27 PM	#8
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: Funky Town (STL, MO) Posts: 19,220	It's the cutting edge of politics in a very extraordinarily boring way. --Eddie Izzard

3rd November 2009, 12:58 PM	#9
INRM Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,289	What was done to Ireland was really just awful
INRM Illuminator Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,289

3rd November 2009, 01:05 PM	#10
icerat Muse Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: stockholm, sweden Posts: 910	Originally Posted by INRM What was done to Ireland was really just awful Which was what? Given the concessions they wanted to allay their fears? How is that awful?

3rd November 2009, 02:47 PM	#11
commandlinegamer Thinker Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 203	Good news for the Tories, though. They stopped sitting on the fence and were finally able to declare they weren't going to have a referendum.

3rd November 2009, 03:00 PM	#12
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11,797	Originally Posted by icerat I believe most (all?) countries had a referendum on that when they joined or formed the EU in the first place. The Lisbon Treaty doesn't really change that much. as long as nations only joined the EU after a national referendum, that's fine. i also believe that a nation should have the ability to secede from the Union, if they feel that the Union's direction and laws are just too wrong for its people. does the Lisbon Treaty include anything about secession? i mean, lets say in 25 years, the EU decides to start banning all Muslim immigrants. shouldn't an EU state have the ability to secede based on such an intolerant standpoint? I do.
	__________________ "To doubt everything and to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions, both dispense with the need for thought" -Henri Poincare Last edited by parky76; 3rd November 2009 at 03:01 PM.

3rd November 2009, 03:17 PM	#13
Undesired Walrus Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,685	Hooray! Here's a stronger, more efficient EU. Originally Posted by parky76 well, that sux then. if my country joined a new political, social, and economic union with other countries, and tore down all visa and other border restrictions, I'd like it go to to a national referendum. seems like you all just got played. The people vote in general elections, and the new Parliament votes on the issue. If most of the British electorate had voted for a Eurosceptic party like the Tories, the Parliament would likely vote no. Originally Posted by parky76 i mean, lets say in 25 years, the EU decides to start banning all Muslim immigrants. shouldn't an EU state have the ability to secede based on such an intolerant standpoint? I do. Sure, with a general election.
	__________________ "Life is tragic simply because the earth turns and the sun inexorably rises and sets, and one day, for each of us, the sun will go down for the last, last time. Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have." ~James Baldwin Last edited by Undesired Walrus; 3rd November 2009 at 03:18 PM.

3rd November 2009, 03:20 PM	#14
Undesired Walrus Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,685	Originally Posted by Arcade22 It will be interesting living in the EUSSR... Interesting, but fictional.
	__________________ "Life is tragic simply because the earth turns and the sun inexorably rises and sets, and one day, for each of us, the sun will go down for the last, last time. Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have." ~James Baldwin

3rd November 2009, 03:28 PM	#15
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11,797	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus Sure, with a general election. what does that mean? the people have to put in an anti-EU party into power, and then the parliament of that country can vote to secede from the Union? can u point to a source for this? i looked up the EU treaty and the treaty of Lisbon and found no stipulations for secession, only stipulations for non-application of certain EU laws to certain countries.
	__________________ "To doubt everything and to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions, both dispense with the need for thought" -Henri Poincare

3rd November 2009, 03:52 PM	#16
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 19,861	Originally Posted by parky76 what does that mean? the people have to put in an anti-EU party into power, and then the parliament of that country can vote to secede from the Union? There is no practical way to stop a country from leaving the EU.

3rd November 2009, 04:01 PM	#17
Undesired Walrus Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,685	Originally Posted by parky76 what does that mean? the people have to put in an anti-EU party into power, and then the parliament of that country can vote to secede from the Union? can u point to a source for this? i looked up the EU treaty and the treaty of Lisbon and found no stipulations for secession, only stipulations for non-application of certain EU laws to certain countries. Sure. Article 49a I believe. Quote: 1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements. 2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article　218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.
	__________________ "Life is tragic simply because the earth turns and the sun inexorably rises and sets, and one day, for each of us, the sun will go down for the last, last time. Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have." ~James Baldwin

3rd November 2009, 05:01 PM	#18
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	Quote: The people vote in general elections, and the new Parliament votes on the issue. If most of the British electorate had voted for a Eurosceptic party like the Tories, the Parliament would likely vote no. Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. Funny how that didn't happen. Now, a stronger, more efficient EU may be a good thing, but I wouldn't mind if it was something we democratically wanted. Actually having a referendum at some point on the EU would be a good thing. I never had a vote on one, I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held.
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	__________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth!" Captain Jean-Luc Picard, The First Duty.

3rd November 2009, 05:05 PM	#19
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11,797	Originally Posted by Uzzy I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held. so, there WAS a referendum!!!
	__________________ "To doubt everything and to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions, both dispense with the need for thought" -Henri Poincare

3rd November 2009, 05:15 PM	#20
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group. We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty. This has led to quite an undemocratic situation, especially when polls suggest a majority of people in the UK would like to leave the EU. The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state.
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	__________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth!" Captain Jean-Luc Picard, The First Duty.

3rd November 2009, 05:18 PM	#21
Undesired Walrus Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,685	Originally Posted by Uzzy Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here.
	__________________ "Life is tragic simply because the earth turns and the sun inexorably rises and sets, and one day, for each of us, the sun will go down for the last, last time. Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have." ~James Baldwin

3rd November 2009, 05:35 PM	#22
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 19,861	Originally Posted by Uzzy Most of the British electorate voted for parties that pledged a referendum on the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty. Funny how that didn't happen. Now, a stronger, more efficient EU may be a good thing, but I wouldn't mind if it was something we democratically wanted. Actually having a referendum at some point on the EU would be a good thing. I never had a vote on one, I wasn't even alive when the referendum for joining the economic bloc was held. Referenda are unbritish. New labour may be something of a fan of them but that doesn't change the fact that historicaly they are more something people in other countries do.

3rd November 2009, 05:44 PM	#23
parky76 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 11,797	Originally Posted by Uzzy The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state. so, its sorta like when Chancellor Palpatine decided to unilaterally reorganize the Galactic Republic into an Empire?
	__________________ "To doubt everything and to believe everything are two equally convenient solutions, both dispense with the need for thought" -Henri Poincare

3rd November 2009, 05:50 PM	#24
Giz Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 1,316	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here. The Lisbon Treaty and the Constitution are so similar in content and effect that denying a referendum was a clear breach of the spirit of the manifesto promise. Semantic weasling by Labour.

3rd November 2009, 05:56 PM	#25
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus No, it was a pledge on the EU Constitution. When it failed in Middle Europe there was no point of putting it to a vote here. So instead we get a Lisbon Treaty, which contains much of the text of the Constitution, so much so that Valéry Giscard d'Estaing freely admits it's the Constitution rewritten in a form that gets past the need for referendum. Regardless of that, a referendum was promised, and quibbling your way out of it doesn't exactly help in a) Making the EU seem more democratic or b) Making the EU more popular.
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	__________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth!" Captain Jean-Luc Picard, The First Duty.

3rd November 2009, 05:59 PM	#26
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 19,861	Originally Posted by Uzzy a) Making the EU seem more democratic or b) Making the EU more popular. Considering what comes out of the council of ministers (you know the bit with all the domestic politicians) what makes you think either of those are an objective?

3rd November 2009, 06:00 PM	#27
Giz Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 1,316	Originally Posted by Uzzy Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group. We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty. This has led to quite an undemocratic situation, especially when polls suggest a majority of people in the UK would like to leave the EU. Yeah, the original referendum was also sold to the British people on the basis of it being an economic union - not something that would be political. Originally Posted by Uzzy The EU is an undemocratic, unrepresentative, overly bureaucratic institution, and should not be supported in it's present state. Undemocratic is bad enough but we're being forced into a Union which is so corrupt that it's been unable to get it's accounts signed off by the auditors since 1994... !

3rd November 2009, 06:08 PM	#28
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	Originally Posted by geni Considering what comes out of the council of ministers (you know the bit with all the domestic politicians) what makes you think either of those are an objective? I don't, and that rather worries me. If we are going to give them more and more power, knowing that they feel democracy and accountability is important might be a little reassuring.
Uzzy Critical Thinker Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 477	__________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth!" Captain Jean-Luc Picard, The First Duty.

3rd November 2009, 06:13 PM	#29
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 19,861	Originally Posted by Uzzy I don't, and that rather worries me. If we are going to give them more and more power, knowing that they feel democracy and accountability is important might be a little reassuring. Democracy is going up (more stuff ending up in the hands of the parliment rather than the buracracts). Accountability? Depends how you vote in the EU elections

4th November 2009, 02:00 AM	#30
Undesired Walrus Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 6,685	I wonder how many people who oppose the Lisbon Treaty have any idea what the hell it does, besides their idea that it creates some all-powerful President Blair.
	__________________ "Life is tragic simply because the earth turns and the sun inexorably rises and sets, and one day, for each of us, the sun will go down for the last, last time. Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have." ~James Baldwin

4th November 2009, 02:09 AM	#31
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by Uzzy Way back in 1975, yes. At which point (and this corrects my earlier statement), we were already a member of the European Economic Community, essentially a free trade area. The referendum was on whether or not we should stay in that group. We never had a referendum when the EU was created. We were promised, but not granted, a referendum over this latest treaty. ...snip... Sorry but that isn't true - The Labour party promised a referendum on the "Constitutional Treaty" not the "Lisbon Treaty" - the "Constitutional Treaty" was killed by "No" votes in several EU countries.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

4th November 2009, 02:12 AM	#32
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus I wonder how many people who oppose the Lisbon Treaty have any idea what the hell it does, besides their idea that it creates some all-powerful President Blair. Very few people will have read it - in that way it is like the Constitutional Treaty! Which was a very badly named treaty being nothing like a constitution.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008

4th November 2009, 07:45 AM	#33
Giz Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: UK/US Posts: 1,316	Originally Posted by Darat Sorry but that isn't true - The Labour party promised a referendum on the "Constitutional Treaty" not the "Lisbon Treaty" - the "Constitutional Treaty" was killed by "No" votes in several EU countries. That's semantics

4th November 2009, 07:50 AM	#34
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 45,901	Originally Posted by Giz That's semantics I disagree - I read both and they are certainly not the same treaty, yes they have lots in common but any treaty that was trying to make the EU more democratic would share that level of commonality. ETA: And this by the way is not just my opinion, the High Court also concluded that the treaties were not the same.
	__________________ If it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart? - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 1918-2008 Last edited by Darat; 4th November 2009 at 07:55 AM.

4th November 2009, 11:28 AM	#35
geni Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 19,861	Originally Posted by Darat Very few people will have read it - in that way it is like the Constitutional Treaty! Which was a very badly named treaty being nothing like a constitution. The treaty is practicly unreadable so objecting to people not reading it is somewhat unreasonable.