Homeopathic Medicines are Effective - Page 4

JWideman · 3rd November 2009, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Repeatedly you are asking for controls, that means you have nt gone through my blog. experiments with Sulphur and gelsemium 200c, posts

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...meopathic.html

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...pathic_14.html

Yep, you ARE the same guy.

Badly Shaved Monkey · 3rd November 2009, 11:30 PM

Has he gone away?

ElMondoHummus · 4th November 2009, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Repeatedly you are asking for controls, that means you have nt gone through my blog. experiments with Sulphur and gelsemium 200c, posts

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...meopathic.html

http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...pathic_14.html

You have given zero proof that these are blinded controls. This is the biggest problem that by itself invalidates any claim you choose to make from your experiment.
Your sample sizes are miniscule
Your graphs do not indicate whether the skin temperature variations are actually significant, nor whether they exceed experimental error.

This is ridiculous. I say it again: Cargo cult science. Simply aping the mannerisms and procedures without understanding of the reasons things are done is not science. It's acting.

MRC_Hans · 4th November 2009, 07:36 AM

Munta has posted this before. He got the same feed-back the last time.

- His graphs are in Hz (frequency) on one axis and a derivative of Hz on the other axis. This alone makes little sense.

- I have asked him to explain how the graphs were significant compared to placebo. He never answered.

- The graphs contain a number of peaks of more or less random size. Their position OTOH coincides with a subharmonic of the sampling frequency (0.5Hz).

It is my claim that the graphs are an artefact of his measuring system.
It is also my claim that he cannot define a criterion that separates th everum and placebo groups.

Hans

Mojo · 4th November 2009, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

It is also my claim that he cannot define a criterion that separates th everum and placebo groups.

A claim that he could easily refute by means of blinded tests, if there is any real distinction between them.

ElMondoHummus · 4th November 2009, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

- His graphs are in Hz (frequency) on one axis and a derivative of Hz on the other axis. This alone makes little sense.

How did I miss this

? I just took a look and trusted that he was plotting temperature vs. time, like the text on that page claimed. Could I have somehow accidentally committed the error of granting him too much credit?

My God... he plotted time vs. a derivative of time. That defies rationalization.

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

It is my claim that the graphs are an artefact of his measuring system.
It is also my claim that he cannot define a criterion that separates th everum and placebo groups.

Hans

You know, I was slowly working towards the idea that the plots were indeed artifacts of either his equipment or his methodology, thinking we could travelogue the trip, but hey! Seems like you just wanna land directly there without luxuriating in the journey!

Kidding. I'm just playing.

Seriously, though, yes, I agree with you on that. As well as the last point. I don't see him differentiating any difference between the groups. All he's doing is a "Look! Difference!!" and leaving it at that.

And yes, I'll go look up some of the previous threads to see what ground he's already covered. Should've done that before jumping in here.

Christian Klippel · 4th November 2009, 09:18 AM

It's always funny how the very same argumentative patterns shows up when believers are asked for conclusive tests.

Compare:

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Of course it needs sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics, homeopathic philosophy, homeopathic materia medica, homeopathic pharmacy, and computer application.

With this, for example:

Originally Posted by Astro Teacher

It is very difficult to prove anything in the natal area of astrology as it is a very complex metaphysical field and can only be measured by those who have had many years of astrological study, and who have first mastered the Natural Astrological Branch.

The same happens in practically every type of pseudoscience. The free-energy folks will tell you that you need extensive knowledge of [insert BS-buzzwords here] in order to properly understand or test free-energy.

Also, they all act the same way when cornered by sound arguments: running away.

In any case, you can never, ever, expect to see a test together with its raw data, an explanation how that data was gathered, processed, etc.

As someone here already pointed out: to do a quick evaluation of a test result, all that is needed is to know how the test was conducted (to spot obvious flaws in the procedure) and a little statistics to see if the results (if the test itself is valid, that is) have any meaning beyond noise.

Greetings,

Chris

Ducky · 4th November 2009, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Ducky

Dr. Kumar, please explain what treatment are given for and the exact mechanism by which homeopathic medicines can cure Multiple Myeloma.

Still waiting on an answer, Dr. Kumar. Please repost if I missed it.

MRC_Hans · 4th November 2009, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

You know, I was slowly working towards the idea that the plots were indeed artifacts of either his equipment or his methodology, thinking we could travelogue the trip, but hey! Seems like you just wanna land directly there without luxuriating in the journey!

Belive you me, travelogueing with a homeopath is like giving head to a long worm. Been there, done that, you don't wanna look at the T-shirt.

Hans

ElMondoHummus · 4th November 2009, 06:34 PM

Wow... that is one seriously disturbing analogy.

In other news: I'm leafing through the "Homeopathy is not a placebo theraphy" thread. So far, I'm not impressed with the background rationalizations given; I haven't even gotten to any of the supposed "proof" being offered. I mean, earth's rotation? Earth's orbit? Wow... it's all well and good to propose investigating exogenous biorhythms, but to simply state them as a given is going a little too far. Assertion is a poor replacement for having a foundation of verifiable facts.

I don't know why I do this to myself. I sometimes think trying to study and comprehend certain strains of pseudoscience kills more brain cells than malt liquor.

MRC_Hans · 4th November 2009, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus

Wow... that is one seriously disturbing analogy.

Even more so, I suppose, if you don't have the Hack reference.

Hans

Lupie · 6th November 2009, 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine, continuosly for 10 days and observe the status of your health. It needs keen observation of your thoughts and physical status of your body. You will come to know wether homeopathy is working or not. you will not do this, why ? you or not dare enough to do. but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal.

Muntadev2in,

Are you really asking why people don't "dare" to take this stuff? Listen pal, I have a time bomb inside of me, an incurable, sometimes fatal autoimmune disorder called Systemic Lupus Erythematosus (SLE). I take various meds to keep the disease under control, to keep it from getting a foothold and causing life threatening damage. My prospects of living a long, somewhat healthy life by taking the proper, proven meds are quite good.

A friend of mine who also had SLE became convinced that some snake oil salesman selling a "homeopathic cure" for SLE was the best route for treating the disease. She stopped taking her regular meds, and started on the so called "cure". Within 10 days, she was in the hospital suffering from kidney failure as a direct result of stopping her meds and taking the homeopathic so-called cure. She was immediately re-started on her proper meds, but the damage was done, and she died a short time later.

All of the various Dr.'s and Specialists agreed that she would still be alive and relatively healthy today had she not stopped her meds and started the homeopathic "cure". So, why would I not dare to take your so-called medication? Because I enjoy living on the green side of the grass. You sir/maam, are part of an industry that takes advantage of sick, desperate people who are very vulnerable, scared, and willing to try anything. You sell them garbage that has no medicinal value whatsoever, and far too often, many of these people die a premature, and painful death.

So, I suggest you take your so called meds, and your smug condascending attitude, and take them elsewhere, because nobody is buying your lies or garbage here.

L.

MRC_Hans · 6th November 2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Lupie

Muntadev2in,

Are you really asking why people don't "dare" to take this stuff? ´

*snip*

So, I suggest you take your so called meds, and your smug condascending attitude, and take them elsewhere, because nobody is buying your lies or garbage here.

L.

Yeah. I have spent a LOT of time nicely, politely debating homeopaths. They have still banned me, even closed forums to get rid of me (and other skeptics), and I have always taken the nice path (long worm, etc.), in order to keep the dialog open..

Let me do this now: You guys are either stupid or quacks, except some of you are probably both. You are promoting an archaic system based on outdated ideas, and you can't present ONE good argument for your nonsense.

.....

Ahhh, that felt good!

Hans

Lupie · 6th November 2009, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Yeah. I have spent a LOT of time nicely, politely debating homeopaths. They have still banned me, even closed forums to get rid of me (and other skeptics), and I have always taken the nice path (long worm, etc.), in order to keep the dialog open..

Let me do this now: You guys are either stupid or quacks, except some of you are probably both. You are promoting an archaic system based on outdated ideas, and you can't present ONE good argument for your nonsense.

.....

Ahhh, that felt good!

Hans

I know how you feel, I've been banned in the past for politely debating these quacks too.

L.

Psi Baba · 6th November 2009, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by muntadev2in

For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients.

And yet you have time to waste posting here. What a joke. You might notice that my username is a spoof on that beloved Indian Godman Sai Baba, another total fake. It's too bad B. Premanand is gone. I wish he had taken on homeopathy; he would have shown it to be the pile of crap that it is, with staggering efficiency.

Wolrab · 6th November 2009, 05:07 PM

What about homeoerotic art?

Badly Shaved Monkey · 7th November 2009, 12:56 AM

Has he gone...again?

Aitch · 7th November 2009, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by Wolrab

What about homeoerotic art?

Bit early in the day for me; thanks anyway.

3rd November 2009, 06:29 PM	#121
JWideman Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 419	Originally Posted by muntadev2in Repeatedly you are asking for controls, that means you have nt gone through my blog. experiments with Sulphur and gelsemium 200c, posts http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...meopathic.html http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...pathic_14.html Yep, you ARE the same guy.
JWideman Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 419

3rd November 2009, 11:30 PM	#122
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 4,697	Has he gone away?
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

4th November 2009, 06:37 AM	#123
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Couch... where else? ;) Posts: 6,722	Originally Posted by muntadev2in Repeatedly you are asking for controls, that means you have nt gone through my blog. experiments with Sulphur and gelsemium 200c, posts http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...meopathic.html http://homeoresearch.blogspot.com/20...pathic_14.html You have given zero proof that these are blinded controls. This is the biggest problem that by itself invalidates any claim you choose to make from your experiment. Your sample sizes are miniscule Your graphs do not indicate whether the skin temperature variations are actually significant, nor whether they exceed experimental error. This is ridiculous. I say it again: Cargo cult science. Simply aping the mannerisms and procedures without understanding of the reasons things are done is not science. It's acting.
	__________________ How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible. -Roger Ebert, Transformers review ElMondoHummus, you are a silly, silly man. -Hokulele

4th November 2009, 07:36 AM	#124
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: N55.47'36" E12.30'21" Posts: 10,119	Munta has posted this before. He got the same feed-back the last time. - His graphs are in Hz (frequency) on one axis and a derivative of Hz on the other axis. This alone makes little sense. - I have asked him to explain how the graphs were significant compared to placebo. He never answered. - The graphs contain a number of peaks of more or less random size. Their position OTOH coincides with a subharmonic of the sampling frequency (0.5Hz). It is my claim that the graphs are an artefact of his measuring system. It is also my claim that he cannot define a criterion that separates th everum and placebo groups. Hans
	__________________ The time is always right to do what is right. (Martin Luther King JR.)

4th November 2009, 08:01 AM	#125
Mojo Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nor Flanden Posts: 14,498	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans It is also my claim that he cannot define a criterion that separates th everum and placebo groups. A claim that he could easily refute by means of blinded tests, if there is any real distinction between them.
	__________________ "You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield Ridicule is not an inappropriate response to the ridiculous.

4th November 2009, 08:47 AM	#126
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Couch... where else? ;) Posts: 6,722	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans - His graphs are in Hz (frequency) on one axis and a derivative of Hz on the other axis. This alone makes little sense. How did I miss this ? I just took a look and trusted that he was plotting temperature vs. time, like the text on that page claimed. Could I have somehow accidentally committed the error of granting him too much credit? My God... he plotted time vs. a derivative of time. That defies rationalization. Originally Posted by MRC_Hans It is my claim that the graphs are an artefact of his measuring system. It is also my claim that he cannot define a criterion that separates th everum and placebo groups. Hans You know, I was slowly working towards the idea that the plots were indeed artifacts of either his equipment or his methodology, thinking we could travelogue the trip, but hey! Seems like you just wanna land directly there without luxuriating in the journey! Kidding. I'm just playing. Seriously, though, yes, I agree with you on that. As well as the last point. I don't see him differentiating any difference between the groups. All he's doing is a "Look! Difference!!" and leaving it at that. And yes, I'll go look up some of the previous threads to see what ground he's already covered. Should've done that before jumping in here.
	__________________ How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible. -Roger Ebert, Transformers review ElMondoHummus, you are a silly, silly man. -Hokulele

4th November 2009, 09:18 AM	#127
Christian Klippel Muse Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Ruhr Area in Germany Posts: 605	It's always funny how the very same argumentative patterns shows up when believers are asked for conclusive tests. Compare: Originally Posted by muntadev2in Of course it needs sound knowledge in Human physiology, physiological variability, medicine, biostatistics, homeopathic philosophy, homeopathic materia medica, homeopathic pharmacy, and computer application. With this, for example: Originally Posted by Astro Teacher It is very difficult to prove anything in the natal area of astrology as it is a very complex metaphysical field and can only be measured by those who have had many years of astrological study, and who have first mastered the Natural Astrological Branch. The same happens in practically every type of pseudoscience. The free-energy folks will tell you that you need extensive knowledge of [insert BS-buzzwords here] in order to properly understand or test free-energy. Also, they all act the same way when cornered by sound arguments: running away. In any case, you can never, ever, expect to see a test together with its raw data, an explanation how that data was gathered, processed, etc. As someone here already pointed out: to do a quick evaluation of a test result, all that is needed is to know how the test was conducted (to spot obvious flaws in the procedure) and a little statistics to see if the results (if the test itself is valid, that is) have any meaning beyond noise. Greetings, Chris
	__________________ Humber-physics 101: The treadmill has no ground equivalent. This means that the belt is not the road, but the Earth. ... That means the belt is also a privileged and unique perspective. If not then the treadmill collapses to the real world equivalent of a real treadmill, with different objects at different velocities in the same frame. Either way, no motion.

4th November 2009, 04:13 PM	#128
Ducky Titanium Superhero Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota Posts: 10,341	Originally Posted by Ducky Dr. Kumar, please explain what treatment are given for and the exact mechanism by which homeopathic medicines can cure Multiple Myeloma. Still waiting on an answer, Dr. Kumar. Please repost if I missed it.

4th November 2009, 04:23 PM	#129
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: N55.47'36" E12.30'21" Posts: 10,119	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus You know, I was slowly working towards the idea that the plots were indeed artifacts of either his equipment or his methodology, thinking we could travelogue the trip, but hey! Seems like you just wanna land directly there without luxuriating in the journey! Belive you me, travelogueing with a homeopath is like giving head to a long worm. Been there, done that, you don't wanna look at the T-shirt. Hans
	__________________ The time is always right to do what is right. (Martin Luther King JR.)

4th November 2009, 06:34 PM	#130
ElMondoHummus 0.25 short of being half-witted Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Couch... where else? ;) Posts: 6,722	Wow... that is one seriously disturbing analogy. In other news: I'm leafing through the "Homeopathy is not a placebo theraphy" thread. So far, I'm not impressed with the background rationalizations given; I haven't even gotten to any of the supposed "proof" being offered. I mean, earth's rotation? Earth's orbit? Wow... it's all well and good to propose investigating exogenous biorhythms, but to simply state them as a given is going a little too far. Assertion is a poor replacement for having a foundation of verifiable facts. I don't know why I do this to myself. I sometimes think trying to study and comprehend certain strains of pseudoscience kills more brain cells than malt liquor.
	__________________ How can a pickup truck contain enough mass to unfold into a towering machine? I say if Ringling Brothers can get 15 clowns into a Volkswagen, anything is possible. -Roger Ebert, Transformers review ElMondoHummus, you are a silly, silly man. -Hokulele

4th November 2009, 07:36 PM	#131
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: N55.47'36" E12.30'21" Posts: 10,119	Originally Posted by ElMondoHummus Wow... that is one seriously disturbing analogy. Even more so, I suppose, if you don't have the Hack reference. Hans
	__________________ The time is always right to do what is right. (Martin Luther King JR.)

6th November 2009, 05:53 AM	#132
Lupie Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 344	Originally Posted by muntadev2in Why can't you people take " sulphur 10m " homeopathic medicine, continuosly for 10 days and observe the status of your health. It needs keen observation of your thoughts and physical status of your body. You will come to know wether homeopathy is working or not. you will not do this, why ? you or not dare enough to do. but it is easy to comment homeopathy, why becoz only verbal. Muntadev2in, Are you really asking why people don't "dare" to take this stuff? Listen pal, I have a time bomb inside of me, an incurable, sometimes fatal autoimmune disorder called Systemic Lupus Erythematosus (SLE). I take various meds to keep the disease under control, to keep it from getting a foothold and causing life threatening damage. My prospects of living a long, somewhat healthy life by taking the proper, proven meds are quite good. A friend of mine who also had SLE became convinced that some snake oil salesman selling a "homeopathic cure" for SLE was the best route for treating the disease. She stopped taking her regular meds, and started on the so called "cure". Within 10 days, she was in the hospital suffering from kidney failure as a direct result of stopping her meds and taking the homeopathic so-called cure. She was immediately re-started on her proper meds, but the damage was done, and she died a short time later. All of the various Dr.'s and Specialists agreed that she would still be alive and relatively healthy today had she not stopped her meds and started the homeopathic "cure". So, why would I not dare to take your so-called medication? Because I enjoy living on the green side of the grass. You sir/maam, are part of an industry that takes advantage of sick, desperate people who are very vulnerable, scared, and willing to try anything. You sell them garbage that has no medicinal value whatsoever, and far too often, many of these people die a premature, and painful death. So, I suggest you take your so called meds, and your smug condascending attitude, and take them elsewhere, because nobody is buying your lies or garbage here. L.
Lupie Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 344	Last edited by Lupie; 6th November 2009 at 06:04 AM.

6th November 2009, 07:08 AM	#133
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: N55.47'36" E12.30'21" Posts: 10,119	Originally Posted by Lupie Muntadev2in, Are you really asking why people don't "dare" to take this stuff? ´ snip So, I suggest you take your so called meds, and your smug condascending attitude, and take them elsewhere, because nobody is buying your lies or garbage here. L. Yeah. I have spent a LOT of time nicely, politely debating homeopaths. They have still banned me, even closed forums to get rid of me (and other skeptics), and I have always taken the nice path (long worm, etc.), in order to keep the dialog open.. Let me do this now: You guys are either stupid or quacks, except some of you are probably both. You are promoting an archaic system based on outdated ideas, and you can't present ONE good argument for your nonsense. ..... Ahhh, that felt good! Hans
	__________________ The time is always right to do what is right. (Martin Luther King JR.)

6th November 2009, 08:29 AM	#134
Lupie Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 344	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans Yeah. I have spent a LOT of time nicely, politely debating homeopaths. They have still banned me, even closed forums to get rid of me (and other skeptics), and I have always taken the nice path (long worm, etc.), in order to keep the dialog open.. Let me do this now: You guys are either stupid or quacks, except some of you are probably both. You are promoting an archaic system based on outdated ideas, and you can't present ONE good argument for your nonsense. ..... Ahhh, that felt good! Hans I know how you feel, I've been banned in the past for politely debating these quacks too. L.
Lupie Critical Thinker Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 344

6th November 2009, 10:20 AM	#135
Psi Baba Homo Skepticalis Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: On a recumbent bike Posts: 2,202	Originally Posted by muntadev2in For the question you have asked “ blind studies” , I am busy with my practice. I am not getting sufficient time to conduct experiment on volunteers. I am using the technique for curing my patients. And yet you have time to waste posting here. What a joke. You might notice that my username is a spoof on that beloved Indian Godman Sai Baba, another total fake. It's too bad B. Premanand is gone. I wish he had taken on homeopathy; he would have shown it to be the pile of crap that it is, with staggering efficiency.
	__________________ "I was afraid of this enormous emptiness, but my personal view is that when we die, we die, and we go from a state of something to a state of absolute nothingness; and I don’t believe for a second that there’s anything above or beyond or anything like that; and this makes me enormously secure." -- Ingmar Bergman

6th November 2009, 05:07 PM	#136
Wolrab Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 455	What about homeoerotic art?
Wolrab Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 455

7th November 2009, 12:56 AM	#137
Badly Shaved Monkey Anti-homeopathy illuminati member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Outside a banana and far from a razor Posts: 4,697	Has he gone...again?
	__________________ "i'm frankly surprised homeopathy does as well as placebo" Anonymous homeopath. "Alas, to wear the mantle of Galileo it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment; you must also be right." (Robert Park) Is the pen is mightier than the sword? Its effectiveness as a weapon is certainly enhanced if it is sharpened properly and poked in the eye of your opponent.

7th November 2009, 01:44 AM	#138
Aitch Apprentice Crud Puppy Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,312	Originally Posted by Wolrab What about homeoerotic art? Bit early in the day for me; thanks anyway.
	__________________ There's less to this than meets the eye!