How to explain instability of URLs...

[bug_girl]

Argh. I am trying to get someone non-technical to understand that it is not realistic to expect URL web addresses to remain stable forever.

I have having difficulty composing anything to say without using 4 letter words, or dopeslapping said individual.

With an infinite amount of time and money, sure, we can have stable URLs forever, and constantly be vigilant for changes elsewhere.

Can someone who is not as peeved as I am help me compose something pleasant and informative?

THANKS!

Also, if you're wondering where I've been lately, I've been working massive amounts of overtime

[geni]

Context? Do you mean URLs that point to content you control or web URLs in general?

[bug_girl]

Originally Posted by Ducky

"Listen, you mouth-breathing half-wits, you clicky and internet go wow! But we're not done making internet go wow. So clicky and sometimes internet go boom. uh oh! internet go boom need ouchie band-aid! Where does it hurt, internet? You tell me where internet go boom and where internet hurt and I fix with kisses and cookies. Then internet go wow when you clicky!"

And yes, this is about what I need...but perhaps a bit more technical. I think this has to be the all time best response about an internet question, eVaR!

[bug_girl]

they keep finding broken links on the web. And it's CLEARLY MY FAULT!!

[Denver]

How about something like:

Quote:

URLs are created and paid for by companies and individuals, like you and me. They can also point to files and folders on servers, just like on your PC. Just like you sometimes move things around on your PC, the owners of these URLs sometimes move things around on their computers. And so, an old URL may no longer work, since what it pointed to, has moved. And sometimes, the domain name in the url (like ILIKECHEESE.COM), which is paid for by some person, goes away because the person stops paying for it (or no longer likes cheese).

[Darat]

Blame Lisa - it always works around here!

[daSkeptic]

Originally Posted by bug_girl

Argh. I am trying to get someone non-technical to understand that it is not realistic to expect URL web addresses to remain stable forever.

What are your reasons? It is quite a debatable subject, depending a great deal on the specific situation (and how one defines forever). For instance, there's really no reason why a URL like http://www.amazon.com/isbn/978-0415278447 could not remain valid for years and years. The only risk is that Amazon might go out of the book business or give up the domain.

[geni]

Originally Posted by bug_girl

they keep finding broken links on the web. And it's CLEARLY MY FAULT!!

A lot of web content is only created for short term use thus people see don't bother to make the effort required to keep URLs working long term. Even content that is designed for the longer term can become obsolete at which point people don't make the effort to keep the URLs working.

[Alan]

If you want to (for example) find a specific shop in "real life", you would look for their street address and go to that location. Sometimes, the address you had is out of date and the business has moved or gone out of business.

Internet addresses are similar to street addresses. They tell your computer where you want to visit (so to speak). But, the website may have moved, deleted what you were looking for or gone out of business so your computer can't find what it was looking for.

It's frustrating to get error messages online, just like it's frustrating for someone's favourite shop to disappear, but these things happen.

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Think of urls as licence plates on cars.

There might be a car with that licence plate right now but if the car is scrapped, you won't be able to find the car. Or the licence plate might be moved to another car and the car you do find will not be the one you expect.

Probably could do with a little refinement but you get the idea.

[six7s]

Someone who knows a thing or two about the interwebs says Cool URIs don't change

Quote:

What makes a cool URI?

A cool URI is one which does not change.

What sorts of URI change?

URIs don't change: people change them.

There are no reasons at all in theory for people to change URIs (or stop maintaining documents), but millions of reasons in practice.

In theory, the domain name space owner owns the domain name space and therefore all URIs in it. Except insolvency, nothing prevents the domain name owner from keeping the name. And in theory the URI space under your domain name is totally under your control, so you can make it as stable as you like. Pretty much the only good reason for a document to disappear from the Web is that the company which owned the domain name went out of business or can no longer afford to keep the server running. Then why are there so many dangling links in the world? Part of it is just lack of forethought. Here are some reasons you hear out there:

We just reorganized our website to make it better.

Do you really feel that the old URIs cannot be kept running? If so, you chose them very badly. Think of your new ones so that you will be able to keep then running after the next redesign.

We have so much material that we can't keep track of what is out of date and what is confidential and what is valid and so we thought we'd better just turn the whole lot off.

That I can sympathize with - the W3C went through a period like that, when we had to carefully sift archival material for confidentiality before making the archives public. The solution is forethought - make sure you capture with every document its acceptable distribution, its creation date and ideally its expiry date. Keep this metadata.

Well, we found we had to move the files...

This is one of the lamest excuses. <snip/>

Source: http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI

[Darat]

I understand the overall argument the article makes but there are times when it just becomes impractical to retain URLs. The Forum, with its dynamic links is an example of that. The Forum has been the cause of many a "not found" links over the years, even though we have managed to preserve a lot of the content (barring the meltdowns and purges). The software has been through at least three major revisions (ultimatebb > vbulletin 2.x > vbulletin3.x) and there was no way at each of those changes to preserve the URL's to threads and posts. (And I'm ignoring the issues caused by not using a sub domain name until the 'forums.randi.org' era, that was the one that could have been dealt with.)

[deep]

Originally Posted by bug_girl

Argh. I am trying to get someone non-technical to understand that it is not realistic to expect URL web addresses to remain stable forever.

Consider a list of phone numbers - depending on how long ago the list was made, there's a good chance that some of the numbers will be disconnected, belong to someone other than the person on the list, etc.

The same holds true for links on a website. If the site hasn't been updated in a long time, some of the links might not work.

[BPScooter]

Maybe the best analogy is really a physical mailbox, with a postal worker that takes out and brings in your mail? You can set up shop, receive and send "letters" as long as you like. If your landlord starts charging you for that, and/or if your letter-carrier wants more bonus pay and holiday gifts, you might just stop. Or you could move, but the physical address and send/receive still lives on. Or you could destroy the mailbox, so the next person would have to build a slightly new one. Or... (as Tyrone Green [Eddie Murphy] said in his poem... Kill my Landlord... Kill my Landlord)> :-)

[H3LL]

There is a perfect and very understandable explanation with some very good diagrams here:

Broken Links and their Causes



.

[rjh01]

Originally Posted by H3LL

There is a perfect and very understandable explanation with some very good diagrams here:

Broken Links and their Causes



.

This is a joke, yes? The link is broken.

[H3LL]

Originally Posted by rjh01

This is a joke, yes? The link is broken.

Your perspicacity underwhelms me.

When I need someone to poop at a party I'll give you a call.

[rjh01]

Ditto. So what is the correct link? Or has it expired?

[six7s]

Originally Posted by rjh01

Ditto. So what is the correct link? Or has it expired?

Broken Links: PEBKAC syndrome

[Ducky]

Last time you had to explain something this basic to people it was having to explain the development and testing process of a website. I believe my answer then was good, and I will give a similar one now:


Dear uninformed and technically challenged mouthbreathers:

The Internet is fluid and changes. It, like the entire universe, is not subject to suffer your idiotic whims. Please wipe the drool from your keyboard and go outside for a while.

Thank you,

-BOFH.

[gnome]

You step into the stream
But the river has moved on:
Error 404.

(I am not the author of this haiku)

[Toke]

Ok, so URL is the abbreviation for the address in a bookmark or link, like this.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=158267
http://www.questionablecontent.net/
The stuff I type or paste into the browser address field.

The bit about mistyping and shut down or reorganised pages was what I guessed.

[moopet]

Wikipedia has an adequate page on "link rot", too.

[bug_girl]

I so wish I could say that, Ducky!!

Basically, his bookmarks are broken. Clearly, Bug's fault.

THANKS everyone!

[Soapy Sam]

Rome is still in Rome.

But Nero doesn't live there now.

[six7s]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Rome is still in Rome.

But Nero doesn't live there now.

Yeah...

And, cos he wasn't very important, if you ask anyone for directions they'll just point you towards the Autostrada del R Sol - the A404

[bokonon]

Originally Posted by bug_girl

they keep finding broken links on the web. And it's CLEARLY MY FAULT!!

If your website contains links which are no longer current, it kinda is your fault. There are scripts that will find these for you. If you have time to explain to someone why the links are broken, you might use the time more productively by removing or updating them.

Originally Posted by bug_girl

Basically, his bookmarks are broken. Clearly, Bug's fault.

On the other hand, if his bookmarks are broken, then it's his fault for not keeping the bookmarks up-to-date.

I get the feeling, though, that in this case, he's got bookmarks pointing to your website, and you've whisked the content out from under him while still keeping the website running with different content.

The best analogy in this case might be to a retail store. I used to be able to buy Pizza Spins at the grocery store; now, they're nowhere to be found. Time marches on; the shelf that held Halloween costumes and candy last month now has Christmas decorations.

Let him know that there are ways to save content that he'll want to refer to again -- either "Save page as" from his browser's file menu, or a plug-in like "Scrapbook". Maybe a site like the internet archive.

[Ron_Tomkins]

Originally Posted by six7s

Broken Links: PEBKAC syndrome

Oh great. You've ruined the end for me. Thanks! Thanks a lot!!

*Stares into the emptiness wondering what to do next*

[six7s]

Originally Posted by bokonon

If your website contains links which are no longer current, it kinda is your fault. There are scripts that will find these for you.

The w3c has a free, online service: http://validator.w3.org/checklink

You can "Check linked documents recursively" to a 'recursion depth' that YOU specify

Originally Posted by bokonon

If you have time to explain to someone why the links are broken, you might use the time more productively by removing or updating them.

And/or implementing 301 redirects

[six7s]

Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins

Oh great. You've ruined the end for me. Thanks! Thanks a lot!!

*Stares into the emptiness wondering what to do next*

Fer cryin' out loud, Ron!!11!!

Did you not read the contents?

Originally Posted by Broken Links: PEBKAC syndrome

You must now turn off your computer and go do something productive.

Go read a book, for pete's sake.

[bug_girl]

Originally Posted by bokonon

If your website contains links which are no longer current, it kinda is your fault. There are scripts that will find these for you. If you have time to explain to someone why the links are broken, you might use the time more productively by removing or updating them.

Cripes. Cause, you know, I don't do anything other than eat bon bons when I should be working

Seriously, you can do redirects, but in a site with >200 pages, that's just not practical. Especially with >45 people editing the site and creating new pages. Even with a CMS, I can't catch everything.

And I'm getting flack for changed sites that aren't even mine. Urk.

I'm at the point where I am having a hard time composing emails that do not have a lot of 4 letter words. I also had to explain to someone today that frogs do not really give you warts.

*beats head on desk*

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by bug_girl

Cripes. Cause, you know, I don't do anything other than eat bon bons when I should be working

Seriously, you can do redirects, but in a site with >200 pages, that's just not practical. Especially with >45 people editing the site and creating new pages. Even with a CMS, I can't catch everything.

And I'm getting flack for changed sites that aren't even mine. Urk.

I'm at the point where I am having a hard time composing emails that do not have a lot of 4 letter words. I also had to explain to someone today that frogs do not really give you warts.

*beats head on desk*

I am sure we could come up with a perl script to crawl for url's in pages on the site and do a curl to check them. Should it be broken, it could email a report of broken links on pages, etc.

Or, just have it change the damned link to a static page saying 'HEY YOU ****ERS!!!! FIX ME!!!!! FIX ME OR ADMIN WILL USE ROOT TO ERASE YOUR ****ING PORN!!!!"

That would work.

[six7s]

Originally Posted by Ducky

I am sure we could come up with a perl script to crawl for url's in pages on the site and do a curl to check them. Should it be broken, it could email a report of broken links on pages, etc.

PHP Code:

<?php
$cowsAtHome = false;
do
  {
  getCowLocation();
  echo "Reinvent the wheel " . (date("Y/m/d")+1) . "<br>";
  }
while ($cowsAtHome == false);
?>

Originally Posted by six7s

The w3c has a free, online service: http://validator.w3.org/checklink

You can "Check linked documents recursively" to a 'recursion depth' that YOU specify

[BPScooter]

Have I heard correctly? That the Andes are indeed crossable by frogs?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping_Yarns

"Nothing more was heard or seen of Captain Walter Stetterton...the man who set out with such high hopes to conquer the most unforgiving mountains of all...But the six frogs who were released in Quequeña that fateful morning hopped into Mexico City, six thousand three hundred miles north, on the twenty-second of September ninteen twenty seven... Captain Snetterton's belief in High Altitude Amphibian exploration had been justified after all... his observations, research, and training techniques, for which he gave his life, at last bore fruit."

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by six7s

PHP Code:

<?php
$cowsAtHome = false;
do
  {
  getCowLocation();
  echo "Reinvent the wheel " . (date("Y/m/d")+1) . "<br>";
  }
while ($cowsAtHome == false);
?>

I lol'ed!

Yes I suppose that would work and you wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.

[six7s]

Originally Posted by Ducky

Yes I suppose that would work and you wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel.

Yep... http://validator.w3.org/checklink does work... really well... and its free, as in lunch

Originally Posted by bug_girl

With an infinite amount of time and money, sure, we can have stable URLs forever, and constantly be vigilant for changes elsewhere.

With a regular budget for maintainence, sure, we can have stable URLs and valid external links