Why do (some) astrologers ask for the exact time of birth? - Page 22

ynot · 13th November 2009, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Toke

He has probably realised that astrology does not work and is out looking for another hobby.

Don't think a believer is any more likely to be dissuaded by a single bad reading then a sceptic is to be persuaded by a single good one.

Jeff Corey · 13th November 2009, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Fiona

To be fair I think it is a translation and it is not a very good one, IMO

But Popper's Logik der Forschung seemed to survive translation.

Toke · 13th November 2009, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Don't think a believer is any more likely to be dissuaded by a single bad reading then a sceptic is to be persuaded by a single good one.

Really.

More seriously, a sceptic could write one good one off to luck or hot/cold reading, for the believer it would depend on what level of reliability they ascribe to their stuff.

ynot · 13th November 2009, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Toke

Really.

More seriously, a sceptic could write one good one off to luck or hot/cold reading, for the believer it would depend on what level of reliability they ascribe to their stuff.

Can’t speak for all sceptics but I am sure I would be more likely to be persuaded by many good readings than a believer would be likely to be dissuaded by many bad readings. I’ve had many paranormal readings done (astrology, tarot, runes, etc) and have yet to see one that has even come close to being good. None of these readings have had any dissuasive affect on the beliefs of the believers.

Toke · 13th November 2009, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Can’t speak for all sceptics but I am sure I would be more likely to be persuaded by many good readings than a believer would be likely to be dissuaded by many bad readings. I’ve had many paranormal readings done (astrology, tarot, runes, etc) and have yet to see one that has even come close to being good. None of these readings have had any dissuasive affect on the beliefs of the believers.

That sounds like the believer are severely short of critical thinking.

I was describing how things should be, not accounting for "count the hits, ignore the misses" and other errors. Sorry if it appeared unclear.
And no, he is probably not out looking for another hobby.

silver birch · 14th November 2009, 08:56 AM

Princess Diana gave the time of her birth and look what happened to her.

ynot · 14th November 2009, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by silver birch

Princess Diana gave the time of her birth and look what happened to her.

How did Princess Diana giving her time of birth to anyone have anything to do with what happened to her?

six7s · 14th November 2009, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Originally Posted by silver birch

Princess Diana gave the time of her birth and look what happened to her.

How did Princess Diana giving her time of birth to anyone have anything to do with what happened to her?

I have a hunch that a

would not be out of place at the end of the post made by silver birch

I.e., its flippant nonsense aimed at satirising the wooists

I hope so!

ynot · 14th November 2009, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by six7s

I have a hunch that a

would not be out of place at the end of the post made by silver birch

I.e., its flippant nonsense aimed at satirising the wooists

I hope so!

You're probably right, and I hope so too!

Bronwyn Elko · 16th November 2009, 02:18 PM

Time does not permit me to post much these days.

I'm meeting this Friday with a Canadian writer, who has kindly offered to read my work.

However, I would to add to this discussion two quick thoughts.

Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology.

In fact, I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why.

From my scientifically limited viewpoint, I don't see why there can't exist an entangled model comprised of both mechanistic and correlative features. My sense is that astrology "works" via a physical mechanism (geocosmic fields causing biological effects) and via an unknown-at-this-time correlative "force," i.e., As Above, So Below). Correlation is often difficult to quantify and thus define, but, I do believe that correlation is a basic expression of the interwoven, reflective fabric of spacetime. Correlation may work like a holographic web, in which every strand reflects all of the other threads that make up our reality.

RE: the biological effects of magnetic fields on living creatures. The evidence that birds, bees and fish respond to changes in earth's magnetic field is well documented and can be found all over the net. Google: Magnetic Orientation in Animals, by Drs. Roswitha and Wolfgang Wiltschko. (Amazon books may allow you to read the preface and other relevant pages; sorry, but I've no time to check.)

For evidence of the mineral magnetite being found in human brain tissue go to:

www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/256/5059/967

Magnetite, also found in the brains of birds and bees, is assumed by scientists to operate as a "magnetic sensing organ." The results of Kirschvink's work, in which human brain tissue appears to contain tiny bars of magnetite, was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (as stated in the Science magazine article, link provided above.)

So, if the human brain contains a "magnetic sensing organ" that is capable of picking up extremely low frequencies, it seems quite possible (to me, at least) that people may very well unconsciously pick up planetary-magnetic signals, which impact earth's magnetosphere, ringing it like a bell.

weak electromagnetic fields

Bronwyn Elko · 16th November 2009, 02:26 PM

Time does not permit me to post much these days.

I'm meeting this Friday with a Canadian writer, who has kindly offered to read my work.

However, I would to add to this discussion two quick thoughts.

Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology.

In fact, I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why.

From my scientifically limited viewpoint, I don't see why there can't exist an entangled model comprised of both mechanistic and correlative features. My sense is that astrology "works" via a physical mechanism (geocosmic fields causing biological effects) and via an unknown-at-this-time correlative "force," i.e., As Above, So Below). Correlation is often difficult to quantify and thus define, but, I do believe that correlation is a basic expression of the interwoven, reflective fabric of spacetime. Correlation may work like a holographic web, in which every strand reflects all of the other threads that make up our reality.

RE: the biological effects of magnetic fields on living creatures. The evidence that birds, bees and fish respond to changes in earth's magnetic field is well documented and can be found all over the net. Google: Magnetic Orientation in Animals, by German Drs. Roswitha and Wolfgang Wiltschko. (Amazon books may allow you to read the preface and other relevant pages; sorry, but I've no time to check.)

For evidence of the mineral magnetite being found in human brain tissue go to:

www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/256/5059/967

Magnetite, also found in the brains of birds and bees, is assumed by scientists to operate as a "magnetic sensing organ." The results of Kirschvink's work, in which human brain tissue appears to contain tiny bars of magnetite, was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (as stated in the Science magazine article, link provided above.)

So, if the human brain contains a "magnetic sensing organ" that is capable of picking up extremely low frequencies, it seems quite possible (to me, at least) that people may very well unconsciously pick up planetary-magnetic signals, which impact earth's magnetosphere, ringing it like a bell.

Pure_Argent · 16th November 2009, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn Elko

Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology.

In fact, I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why.

If something has a correlation with another thing, it implies that there is a common cause - which means that there is a mechanism connecting the two of them.

Quote:

From my scientifically limited viewpoint, I don't see why there can't exist an entangled model comprised of both mechanistic and correlative features. My sense is that astrology "works" via a physical mechanism (geocosmic fields causing biological effects) and via an unknown-at-this-time correlative "force," i.e., As Above, So Below).

Well, there's a major problem with this. First of all, you have to demonstrate that there is actually a correlation between the astrological movements and actual events here on Earth before you can claim that it works through an unknown mechanism. You have to show that it does work before you can talk about how it works.

Quote:

Correlation is often difficult to quantify and thus define, but, I do believe that correlation is a basic expression of the interwoven, reflective fabric of spacetime. Correlation may work like a holographic web, in which every strand reflects all of the other threads that make up our reality.

And again, you can say this all you want, but until you a) define your terms specifically and b) provide some evidence for this, no one has to listen. You're just saying stuff without presenting evidence.

Quote:

RE: the biological effects of magnetic fields on living creatures. The evidence that birds, bees and fish respond to changes in earth's magnetic field is well documented and can be found all over the net. Google: Magnetic Orientation in Animals, by Drs. Roswitha and Wolfgang Wiltschko. (Amazon books may allow you to read the preface and other relevant pages; sorry, but I've no time to check.)

Yes, but this does not prove that it actually affects the growth of a fetus.

Quote:

For evidence of the mineral magnetite being found in human brain tissue go to:

www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/256/5059/967

Quote:

The magnetite finding - if it's confirmed - could change those views.

Can you show that it has been confirmed?

Quote:

Magnetite, also found in the brains of birds and bees, is assumed by scientists to operate as a "magnetic sensing organ." The results of Kirschvink's work, in which human brain tissue appears to contain tiny bars of magnetite, was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (as stated in the Science magazine article, link provided above.)

No big surprise. It still has nothing to do with human development unless you can show that human brains also contain magnetite.

six7s · 16th November 2009, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn Elko

Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology.

In fact, I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why.

I think that, until there is credible evidence that anything is happening, its a waste of time to even contemplate a model...

Serious question:

In the absence of an observable effect, what can you model?

rsaavedra · 16th November 2009, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

If something has a correlation with another thing, it implies that there is a common cause - which means that there is a mechanism connecting the two of them.

Wrong. There might be a common cause. Or one might be causing the other. Or neither of the above; it might be just a spurious correlation.

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

Well, there's a major problem with this. First of all, you have to demonstrate that there is actually a correlation between the astrological movements and actual events here on Earth before you can claim that it works through an unknown mechanism. You have to show that it does work before you can talk about how it works.

Exactly! Which is what several others have been pointing out, though it seems not many are getting the point yet.

rsaavedra · 16th November 2009, 04:55 PM

By the way, the following link was posted on Facebook by the Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine page. Thought it might be of interesting for some here:

Learn to be a Psychic in 10 Easy Lessons! (PDF)

Pure_Argent · 16th November 2009, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by rsaavedra

Wrong. There might be a common cause. Or one might be causing the other. Or neither of the above; it might be just a spurious correlation.

"Implies" does not mean "guarantee", but I guess I can see the source of the confusion. I meant what you said.

rsaavedra · 16th November 2009, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by Pure_Argent

"Implies" does not mean "guarantee", but I guess I can see the source of the confusion. I meant what you said.

Hmm....I'll leave that to the native speakers. Meaning, I'm not a native speaker, so I won't argue about it.

However, check the second meaning of imply here.

The third meaning of imply in my Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English says: "If one thing implies another, it proves that the second exists."

Pure_Argent · 16th November 2009, 05:08 PM

:/

Maybe I need to brush up on definitions...

Gord_in_Toronto · 16th November 2009, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

You're probably right, and I hope so too!

If someone had given her even an inkling of a potential danger, maybe she would have put her seatbelt on.

Dave Rogers · 17th November 2009, 02:37 AM

Originally Posted by Bronwyn Elko

So, if the human brain contains a "magnetic sensing organ" that is capable of picking up extremely low frequencies, it seems quite possible (to me, at least) that people may very well unconsciously pick up planetary-magnetic signals, which impact earth's magnetosphere, ringing it like a bell.

As I've pointed out earlier on this thread, there are terrestrial, artifical magnetic field sources that are both many orders of magnitude stronger than planetary magnetic fields and many orders of magnitude closer. Since any magnetic effects on people born in the last few decades will be dominated by these and other terrestrial electromagnetic sources, with the magnetic fields of other planets being so much weaker as to be insignificant, it seems to me that either magnetic interactions can't be relevant to astrology, or that astrology has ceased to work as a result of human activity in the last half-century or so.

Dave

Toke · 17th November 2009, 03:56 AM

Ørsted noticed the effect a wire with current running had on a compass needle and came up with a theory of electromagnetism.
If anybody noticed the planets having an effect on our lives there would be great effort to come up with a theory for it. Until then astrology got it the wrong way around.

silver birch · 17th November 2009, 05:00 AM

Originally Posted by ynot

How did Princess Diana giving her time of birth to anyone have anything to do with what happened to her?

I will explain why I put that remark on the forum and I'm being serious now.
shortly after Di's very tragic death her astologer (I cannot remember her name) was interviewed on bbc radio 4. the interviewer asked her about astrology. she said she went to a college and studied astrology, and Di had a chart drawn up and had monthly readings. when the interviewer asked why she did not warn her what would happen she had no answer. so, to repeat my previous point-what use was it to princess Di?

six7s · 17th November 2009, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by silver birch

...what use was it to princess Di?

Same 'use' as is derived from all superstitious beliefs: false comfort in the face of incomprehensible reality

Gord_in_Toronto · 17th November 2009, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by silver birch

I will explain why I put that remark on the forum and I'm being serious now.
shortly after Di's very tragic death her astologer (I cannot remember her name) was interviewed on bbc radio 4. the interviewer asked her about astrology. she said she went to a college and studied astrology, and Di had a chart drawn up and had monthly readings. when the interviewer asked why she did not warn her what would happen she had no answer. so, to repeat my previous point-what use was it to princess Di?

I did an extensive on line search (aka Google) shortly after the Peoples' Princess went to meet whoever or whatever princesses go when they die and I found nothing that predated her death (or even any one claiming after) that indicated that she was given any advice or warning. I did find one for Prince Charles that warned him of something trivial.

I could have given her advice that would have saved her life -- "Wear your SEATBELT".

Idiots all.

ynot · Yesterday, 10:02 AM

Chester_Field hasn’t posted or responded by PM since “the reading”. I hope s/he hasn't had an unforeseen incident with a bus or any other tragedy. Must say it seems like a case of “run away” in the face of failure

tsig · Yesterday, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by six7s

Same 'use' as is derived from all superstitious beliefs: false comfort in the face of incomprehensible reality

If your whole life is predicted by your birth why bother living it?

six7s · Yesterday, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by tsig

If your whole life is predicted by your birth why bother living it?

I can only guess...

Maybe its sorta like the way fiction in literature is popular... even if/when we know that 'the butler did it' it can be fascinating to read a novel/watch a film/etc from start to end - as long as the plot is 'original' and has sufficient 'depth', etc...

Who knows? Any wooists care to answer?

Gord_in_Toronto · Yesterday, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by ynot

Chester_Field hasn’t posted or responded by PM since “the reading”. I hope s/he hasn't had an unforeseen incident with a bus or any other tragedy. Must say it seems like a case of “run away” in the face of failure

Maybe he is off doing a rectification of his reading and will report back with an explanation shortly, or maybe not, depending on the stars.

Dogdoctor · Yesterday, 10:51 PM

I was thinking about astrology because I am reading Phil Plait's book Bad Astronomy and I had this thought: What is the explanation for the fact that whatever forces are acting on you at exactly the time of your birth don't affect you at just before or just after that or for that matter for the entire existence of you as an embryo/fetus/baby/adult? How is it that it only affects you at the precise moment that you are born?

13th November 2009, 01:29 PM	#841
ynot Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,989	Originally Posted by Toke He has probably realised that astrology does not work and is out looking for another hobby. Don't think a believer is any more likely to be dissuaded by a single bad reading then a sceptic is to be persuaded by a single good one.
	__________________ Believers don't possess beliefs - Believers are possessed by beliefs.

13th November 2009, 01:44 PM	#843
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,763	Originally Posted by ynot Don't think a believer is any more likely to be dissuaded by a single bad reading then a sceptic is to be persuaded by a single good one. Really. More seriously, a sceptic could write one good one off to luck or hot/cold reading, for the believer it would depend on what level of reliability they ascribe to their stuff.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx

13th November 2009, 01:56 PM	#844
ynot Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,989	Originally Posted by Toke Really. More seriously, a sceptic could write one good one off to luck or hot/cold reading, for the believer it would depend on what level of reliability they ascribe to their stuff. Can’t speak for all sceptics but I am sure I would be more likely to be persuaded by many good readings than a believer would be likely to be dissuaded by many bad readings. I’ve had many paranormal readings done (astrology, tarot, runes, etc) and have yet to see one that has even come close to being good. None of these readings have had any dissuasive affect on the beliefs of the believers.
	__________________ Believers don't possess beliefs - Believers are possessed by beliefs.

13th November 2009, 02:03 PM	#845
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,763	Originally Posted by ynot Can’t speak for all sceptics but I am sure I would be more likely to be persuaded by many good readings than a believer would be likely to be dissuaded by many bad readings. I’ve had many paranormal readings done (astrology, tarot, runes, etc) and have yet to see one that has even come close to being good. None of these readings have had any dissuasive affect on the beliefs of the believers. That sounds like the believer are severely short of critical thinking. I was describing how things should be, not accounting for "count the hits, ignore the misses" and other errors. Sorry if it appeared unclear. And no, he is probably not out looking for another hobby.
	__________________ From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. -K. Marx

14th November 2009, 08:56 AM	#846
silver birch Student Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 27	Princess Diana gave the time of her birth and look what happened to her.
silver birch Student Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 27

13th November 2009, 01:38 PM	#842
Jeff Corey New York Skeptic Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 9,410	Originally Posted by Fiona To be fair I think it is a translation and it is not a very good one, IMO But Popper's Logik der Forschung seemed to survive translation.

14th November 2009, 11:53 AM	#847
ynot Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,989	Originally Posted by silver birch Princess Diana gave the time of her birth and look what happened to her. How did Princess Diana giving her time of birth to anyone have anything to do with what happened to her?
	__________________ Believers don't possess beliefs - Believers are possessed by beliefs.

14th November 2009, 12:07 PM	#848
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by ynot Originally Posted by silver birch Princess Diana gave the time of her birth and look what happened to her. How did Princess Diana giving her time of birth to anyone have anything to do with what happened to her? I have a hunch that a would not be out of place at the end of the post made by silver birch I.e., its flippant nonsense aimed at satirising the wooists I hope so!
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project

14th November 2009, 12:11 PM	#849
ynot Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,989	Originally Posted by six7s I have a hunch that a would not be out of place at the end of the post made by silver birch I.e., its flippant nonsense aimed at satirising the wooists I hope so! You're probably right, and I hope so too!
	__________________ Believers don't possess beliefs - Believers are possessed by beliefs.

16th November 2009, 02:18 PM	#850
Bronwyn Elko Scholar Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 69	Time does not permit me to post much these days. I'm meeting this Friday with a Canadian writer, who has kindly offered to read my work. However, I would to add to this discussion two quick thoughts. Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology. In fact, I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why. From my scientifically limited viewpoint, I don't see why there can't exist an entangled model comprised of both mechanistic and correlative features. My sense is that astrology "works" via a physical mechanism (geocosmic fields causing biological effects) and via an unknown-at-this-time correlative "force," i.e., As Above, So Below). Correlation is often difficult to quantify and thus define, but, I do believe that correlation is a basic expression of the interwoven, reflective fabric of spacetime. Correlation may work like a holographic web, in which every strand reflects all of the other threads that make up our reality. RE: the biological effects of magnetic fields on living creatures. The evidence that birds, bees and fish respond to changes in earth's magnetic field is well documented and can be found all over the net. Google: Magnetic Orientation in Animals, by Drs. Roswitha and Wolfgang Wiltschko. (Amazon books may allow you to read the preface and other relevant pages; sorry, but I've no time to check.) *For evidence of the mineral magnetite being found in human brain tissue go to:* www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/256/5059/967 Magnetite, also found in the brains of birds and bees, is assumed by scientists to operate as a "magnetic sensing organ." The results of Kirschvink's work, in which human brain tissue appears to contain tiny bars of magnetite, was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (as stated in the Science magazine article, link provided above.) So, if the human brain contains a "magnetic sensing organ" that is capable of picking up extremely low frequencies, it seems quite possible (to me, at least) that people may very well unconsciously pick up planetary-magnetic signals, which impact earth's magnetosphere, ringing it like a bell. weak electromagnetic fields

16th November 2009, 02:26 PM	#851
Bronwyn Elko Scholar Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 69	Time does not permit me to post much these days. I'm meeting this Friday with a Canadian writer, who has kindly offered to read my work. However, I would to add to this discussion two quick thoughts. Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology. In fact, I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why. From my scientifically limited viewpoint, I don't see why there can't exist an entangled model comprised of both mechanistic and correlative features. My sense is that astrology "works" via a physical mechanism (geocosmic fields causing biological effects) and via an unknown-at-this-time correlative "force," i.e., As Above, So Below). Correlation is often difficult to quantify and thus define, but, I do believe that correlation is a basic expression of the interwoven, reflective fabric of spacetime. Correlation may work like a holographic web, in which every strand reflects all of the other threads that make up our reality. RE: the biological effects of magnetic fields on living creatures. The evidence that birds, bees and fish respond to changes in earth's magnetic field is well documented and can be found all over the net. Google: Magnetic Orientation in Animals, by German Drs. Roswitha and Wolfgang Wiltschko. (Amazon books may allow you to read the preface and other relevant pages; sorry, but I've no time to check.) *For evidence of the mineral magnetite being found in human brain tissue go to:* www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/256/5059/967 Magnetite, also found in the brains of birds and bees, is assumed by scientists to operate as a "magnetic sensing organ." The results of Kirschvink's work, in which human brain tissue appears to contain tiny bars of magnetite, was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (as stated in the Science magazine article, link provided above.) So, if the human brain contains a "magnetic sensing organ" that is capable of picking up extremely low frequencies, it seems quite possible (to me, at least) that people may very well unconsciously pick up planetary-magnetic signals, which impact earth's magnetosphere, ringing it like a bell.

16th November 2009, 02:37 PM	#852
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 2,572	Originally Posted by Bronwyn Elko Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology. In fact, I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why. If something has a correlation with another thing, it implies that there is a common cause - which means that there is a mechanism connecting the two of them. Quote: From my scientifically limited viewpoint, I don't see why there can't exist an entangled model comprised of both mechanistic and correlative features. My sense is that astrology "works" via a physical mechanism (geocosmic fields causing biological effects) and via an unknown-at-this-time correlative "force," i.e., As Above, So Below). Well, there's a major problem with this. First of all, you have to demonstrate that there is actually a correlation between the astrological movements and actual events here on Earth before you can claim that it works through an unknown mechanism. You have to show that it does work before you can talk about how it works. Quote: Correlation is often difficult to quantify and thus define, but, I do believe that correlation is a basic expression of the interwoven, reflective fabric of spacetime. Correlation may work like a holographic web, in which every strand reflects all of the other threads that make up our reality. And again, you can say this all you want, but until you a) define your terms specifically and b) provide some evidence for this, no one has to listen. You're just saying stuff without presenting evidence. Quote: RE: the biological effects of magnetic fields on living creatures. The evidence that birds, bees and fish respond to changes in earth's magnetic field is well documented and can be found all over the net. Google: Magnetic Orientation in Animals, by Drs. Roswitha and Wolfgang Wiltschko. (Amazon books may allow you to read the preface and other relevant pages; sorry, but I've no time to check.) Yes, but this does not prove that it actually affects the growth of a fetus. Quote: *For evidence of the mineral magnetite being found in human brain tissue go to:* www.sciencemag.org/cgi/pdf_extract/256/5059/967 Quote: The magnetite finding - if it's confirmed - could change those views. Can you show that it has been confirmed? Quote: Magnetite, also found in the brains of birds and bees, is assumed by scientists to operate as a "magnetic sensing organ." The results of Kirschvink's work, in which human brain tissue appears to contain tiny bars of magnetite, was published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (as stated in the Science magazine article, link provided above.) No big surprise. It still has nothing to do with human development unless you can show that human brains also contain magnetite.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "Knowing is so much sweeter than wanting and believing." - cgordon

16th November 2009, 03:01 PM	#853
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by Bronwyn Elko Several members asked why I favored a causation/mechanism versus a correlative model of astrology. In fact, I don't believe the two are necessarily mutually exclusive. Do you? If so, please tell me why. I think that, until there is credible evidence that anything is happening, its a waste of time to even contemplate a model... Serious question: In the absence of an observable effect, what can you model?
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project

16th November 2009, 04:48 PM	#854
rsaavedra Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 562	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent If something has a correlation with another thing, it implies that there is a common cause - which means that there is a mechanism connecting the two of them. Wrong. There might be a common cause. Or one might be causing the other. Or neither of the above; it might be just a spurious correlation. Originally Posted by Pure_Argent Well, there's a major problem with this. First of all, you have to demonstrate that there is actually a correlation between the astrological movements and actual events here on Earth before you can claim that it works through an unknown mechanism. You have to show that it does work before you can talk about how it works. Exactly! Which is what several others have been pointing out, though it seems not many are getting the point yet.
	Last edited by rsaavedra; 16th November 2009 at 04:52 PM.

16th November 2009, 04:55 PM	#855
rsaavedra Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 562	By the way, the following link was posted on Facebook by the Skeptics Society and Skeptic Magazine page. Thought it might be of interesting for some here: Learn to be a Psychic in 10 Easy Lessons! (PDF)

16th November 2009, 04:58 PM	#856
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 2,572	Originally Posted by rsaavedra Wrong. There might be a common cause. Or one might be causing the other. Or neither of the above; it might be just a spurious correlation. "Implies" does not mean "guarantee", but I guess I can see the source of the confusion. I meant what you said.
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "Knowing is so much sweeter than wanting and believing." - cgordon

16th November 2009, 05:07 PM	#857
rsaavedra Muse Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Caracas, Venezuela Posts: 562	Originally Posted by Pure_Argent "Implies" does not mean "guarantee", but I guess I can see the source of the confusion. I meant what you said. Hmm....I'll leave that to the native speakers. Meaning, I'm not a native speaker, so I won't argue about it. However, check the second meaning of imply here. The third meaning of imply in my Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English says: "If one thing implies another, it proves that the second exists."
	Last edited by rsaavedra; 16th November 2009 at 06:40 PM.

16th November 2009, 05:08 PM	#858
Pure_Argent Certified Castlevania Fanboy Join Date: May 2009 Location: The Clock Tower Boss Room Posts: 2,572	:/ Maybe I need to brush up on definitions...
	__________________ "What is a man? Just a miserable little pile of secrets!" - Dracula, Castlevania "Knowing is so much sweeter than wanting and believing." - cgordon

16th November 2009, 05:19 PM	#859
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,495	Originally Posted by ynot You're probably right, and I hope so too! If someone had given her even an inkling of a potential danger, maybe she would have put her seatbelt on.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick Last edited by Gord_in_Toronto; 16th November 2009 at 05:24 PM. Reason: grammer

17th November 2009, 02:37 AM	#860
Dave Rogers The Unbanned Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Notlob Posts: 7,484	Originally Posted by Bronwyn Elko So, if the human brain contains a "magnetic sensing organ" that is capable of picking up extremely low frequencies, it seems quite possible (to me, at least) that people may very well unconsciously pick up planetary-magnetic signals, which impact earth's magnetosphere, ringing it like a bell. As I've pointed out earlier on this thread, there are terrestrial, artifical magnetic field sources that are both many orders of magnitude stronger than planetary magnetic fields and many orders of magnitude closer. Since any magnetic effects on people born in the last few decades will be dominated by these and other terrestrial electromagnetic sources, with the magnetic fields of other planets being so much weaker as to be insignificant, it seems to me that either magnetic interactions can't be relevant to astrology, or that astrology has ceased to work as a result of human activity in the last half-century or so. Dave
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17th November 2009, 03:56 AM	#861
Toke Godless Socialist Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 3,763	Ørsted noticed the effect a wire with current running had on a compass needle and came up with a theory of electromagnetism. If anybody noticed the planets having an effect on our lives there would be great effort to come up with a theory for it. Until then astrology got it the wrong way around.
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17th November 2009, 05:00 AM	#862
silver birch Student Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 27	Originally Posted by ynot How did Princess Diana giving her time of birth to anyone have anything to do with what happened to her? I will explain why I put that remark on the forum and I'm being serious now. shortly after Di's very tragic death her astologer (I cannot remember her name) was interviewed on bbc radio 4. the interviewer asked her about astrology. she said she went to a college and studied astrology, and Di had a chart drawn up and had monthly readings. when the interviewer asked why she did not warn her what would happen she had no answer. so, to repeat my previous point-what use was it to princess Di?
silver birch Student Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 27

17th November 2009, 08:02 AM	#863
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by silver birch ...what use was it to princess Di? Same 'use' as is derived from all superstitious beliefs: false comfort in the face of incomprehensible reality
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project

17th November 2009, 01:55 PM	#864
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,495	Originally Posted by silver birch I will explain why I put that remark on the forum and I'm being serious now. shortly after Di's very tragic death her astologer (I cannot remember her name) was interviewed on bbc radio 4. the interviewer asked her about astrology. she said she went to a college and studied astrology, and Di had a chart drawn up and had monthly readings. when the interviewer asked why she did not warn her what would happen she had no answer. so, to repeat my previous point-what use was it to princess Di? I did an extensive on line search (aka Google) shortly after the Peoples' Princess went to meet whoever or whatever princesses go when they die and I found nothing that predated her death (or even any one claiming after) that indicated that she was given any advice or warning. I did find one for Prince Charles that warned him of something trivial. I could have given her advice that would have saved her life -- "Wear your SEATBELT". Idiots all.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

Yesterday, 10:02 AM	#865
ynot Graduate Poster Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,989	Chester_Field hasn’t posted or responded by PM since “the reading”. I hope s/he hasn't had an unforeseen incident with a bus or any other tragedy. Must say it seems like a case of “run away” in the face of failure
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Yesterday, 11:13 AM	#866
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,846	Originally Posted by six7s Same 'use' as is derived from all superstitious beliefs: false comfort in the face of incomprehensible reality If your whole life is predicted by your birth why bother living it?

Yesterday, 11:45 AM	#867
six7s veretic Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 7,768	Originally Posted by tsig If your whole life is predicted by your birth why bother living it? I can only guess... Maybe its sorta like the way fiction in literature is popular... even if/when we know that 'the butler did it' it can be fascinating to read a novel/watch a film/etc from start to end - as long as the plot is 'original' and has sufficient 'depth', etc... Who knows? Any wooists care to answer?
	__________________ This post is copyleft and may include tyops and/or fallacies and/or grammatical errors like ending a sentence with a preposition - something up with which some will not put Copyright today is a system inflicted on the public, not a system that benefits the public. Richard Stallman - Founder of the GNU Project

Yesterday, 01:18 PM	#868
Gord_in_Toronto Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 7,495	Originally Posted by ynot Chester_Field hasn’t posted or responded by PM since “the reading”. I hope s/he hasn't had an unforeseen incident with a bus or any other tragedy. Must say it seems like a case of “run away” in the face of failure Maybe he is off doing a rectification of his reading and will report back with an explanation shortly, or maybe not, depending on the stars.
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

Yesterday, 10:51 PM	#869
Dogdoctor Canis Doctorius Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pacific Ocean Posts: 12,087	I was thinking about astrology because I am reading Phil Plait's book Bad Astronomy and I had this thought: What is the explanation for the fact that whatever forces are acting on you at exactly the time of your birth don't affect you at just before or just after that or for that matter for the entire existence of you as an embryo/fetus/baby/adult? How is it that it only affects you at the precise moment that you are born?
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