Did FAA New York really stopped Otis-fighters? - Page 9

MaGZ · 19th July 2010, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by bio

It still does not add up!

According to Cherie Gott, the "best time" of the birds flying from Otis to New York would have been 13,7 minutes. page 7. I assume in a direct way without detours. According to her, the fighters had to fly with 863 mph. page 7 source

We know from the Otis-pilots, who flew to New York, they flew as fast as they could, but at 09:03 they were still 60 miles away from New York. For these remaining sixty miles, they had to fly 4,1 minutes more. This time is confirmed by one controller of Newark, who said, the fighters were just "a couple" of minutes away from an interception. Furthermore this time is indirectly confirmed with the "best time" account of Miss Gott (we account together 10 minutes (08:53 - 09:03) + 4,1 minutes= 14,1 minutes)

BUT:
According to the radar-data, the fighters were still 117 miles away not 60! Furthermore the pilots flew a detour not directly, but were just 0,4 minutes (14,1 - 13,7) away from the "best time" (13,7 minutes). Either the account of Miss Gott and the radar-data are wrong, or the witness accounts of the controller and the pilots.

I hope, you can understand my thoughts.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/
Bob Varcapade: I rememember the two F-15’s. They were moments after the impact. And I was just said to myself, “If they only could’ve gotten there a couple minutes earlier. They just missed it.”

TheRedWorm · 19th July 2010, 05:42 PM

Radar does not lie, but people can be mistaken.

fess · 19th July 2010, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by bio

i do not mean "looping" but loop (=Umweg)

see the loop in folowing page:
http://www.capecodtoday.com/images/C...102nd-map4.jpg

You do realize, don't you, that this map puts the Otis jets outside of US airspace? And, your more direct route would have caused some very tense moments in not only the ATC sectors, but various cockpits as well.

MaGZ · 19th July 2010, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by bio

how can you explain me the witness accounts?

Could the pilots see the burning towers even in a distance 117 miles away? Could the faa controller see the fighters in Newark as the fighters were still 117 miles away from new york?

Keep asking questions, bio, and don't accept the official lie.

TheRedWorm · 19th July 2010, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Keep asking questions, bio, and don't accept the official lie.

That's it, isn't it. Just keep JAQing off, and don't bother actually listening to answers. Don't try to actually learn, just stick your head in the sand and ignore anything that doesn't conform to your biases.

fitzgibbon · 19th July 2010, 05:55 PM

Source or it didn't happen (and not that same damned YouTube video of a piece of paper)

MaGZ · 19th July 2010, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Reheat

They were supersonic at around 18,000 ft in a descent headed from W-105 toward Manhattan. The were at 20,000 ft only when climbing or descending. They cruised at FL 290 on the portion after take-off and never went supersonic during this period. Only a stupid conspiracy theorists would continue to argue about when they went supersonic based on a passage in a book as opposed to recorded radar data which shows exactly when they were supersonic.

Oystein, you are doing a laudable job trying to convince a "dyed-in-the-wool" delusional conspiracy theorists to accept facts. However, as evidenced by previous threads as well as this one that is not going to happen.

There is no danger that anyone of consequence listening to his tripe, which has been smeared in his face in several threads already. As with most threads here at JREF, this one is well into the wasted bandwidth category and has been since about page 2.

Are you really suggesting they did this (flying supersonic) after the second plane crash?

Why would they do this?

Dog Town · 19th July 2010, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by fitzgibbon

Source or it didn't happen (and not that same damned YouTube video of a piece of paper)

I always thought it looked more like a seagull.

Reactor drone · 19th July 2010, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Are you really suggesting they did this (flying supersonic) after the second plane crash?

Why would they do this?

Because at that time it was realised that planes were being used as weapons and they were getting to their patrol area ASAP to guard against any further threat.

Sam.I.Am · 19th July 2010, 06:33 PM

At 117 Miles away the fighters only had to be at about 3,000 feet to see the smoke from the towers.

fess · 19th July 2010, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Your argument is total nonsense. When Flight 11 turned South along the Hudson everyone watching the flight knew it was heading toward NYC.

Or, Newark, Atlantic City, Philadelphia, DC, Miami...

Quote:

When fighters are scrambled to intercept an unknown is their first priority to avoid civilian aircraft...

Not running into any aircraft would certainly be high on my priority list!

Quote:

...and go into a holding pattern?

If necessary.

fess · 19th July 2010, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

They could and did. They arrived at 9:03 and attempted to shoot down the second hijacked plane as it was crashing into WTC2.

Still no proof?

bio · 19th July 2010, 10:47 PM

thanks.

perhaps the radar-data is okay, just the timeline, where the fighters were at 09:03, and the speed not? The fighters were flying "around" New York in W-105 and then turning and flying directly to New York City - can anybody show me the exercise "area", where w-105 is located?

fess · 19th July 2010, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by bio

thanks.

perhaps the radar-data is okay, just the timeline, where the fighters were at 09:03, and the speed not? The fighters were flying "around" New York in W-105 and then turning and flying directly to New York City - can anybody show me the exercise "area", where w-105 is located?

Yes I can, if you can read an aeronautical chart.

Oystein · 20th July 2010, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Perhaps it was a doctored radar track.

Perhaps your mother.... uhh let's not go there

Oystein · 20th July 2010, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Your argument is total nonsense. When Flight 11 turned South along the Hudson everyone watching the flight knew it was heading toward NYC.
When fighters are scrambled to intercept an unknown is their first priority to avoid civilian aircraft and go into a holding pattern?
Do you really believe the nonsense you are presenting here?

It is nonsense when it does not conform with your lied-up personal fantasy?
You did not really understand what I said, by the way. For example, I wasn't talking about the holding pattern at all. It's just your imagination reading these things.

Oystein · 20th July 2010, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/
Bob Varcapade: I rememember the two F-15’s. They were moments after the impact. And I was just said to myself, “If they only could’ve gotten there a couple minutes earlier. They just missed it.”

I talked with a friend on the phone the other day. I could have sworn it was only 45 minutes of good, intense talk, but phone company records show it was 4 hours.

You see, people's perception and recollection of time is easily off the mark by considerable factors, especially in very emotional situations.

Oystein · 20th July 2010, 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Just Keep asking questions, bio, and do~~n't~~ accept the ~~official~~ truther lies.

ftfy

Oystein · 20th July 2010, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by MaGZ

Are you really suggesting they did this (flying supersonic) after the second plane crash?

Why would they do this?

He is not suggesting, he is stating as fact, derived from hard sources. Something truthers rarely do.

Because only then was it clear that a concerted terrorist attack involving more than 1 plane was underway, which kinda immediately changed some priorities.

Oystein · 20th July 2010, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by bio

thanks.

perhaps the radar-data is okay, just the timeline, where the fighters were at 09:03, and the speed not? ...

Perhaps you are clinging to straws?
Perhaps your sister... uhh no, I'll not go there.

If the timeline ans speed are not ok, then the radar data is not okay. If you accept the radar data is ok, you must at the same time accept time and speed (to within reasonable limits).

It is not unheard of that systems don't have the absolute correct time, but I remember reading somewhere (in the 9/11-commission report even?) how radar tracks of different sources were synchronized. We are talking here about clocks being off by less than half a minute. Nothing that would save your lied-up fantasies.

progge · 20th July 2010, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

It is not unheard of that systems don't have the absolute correct time, but I remember reading somewhere (in the 9/11-commission report even?) how radar tracks of different sources were synchronized. We are talking here about clocks being off by less than half a minute.

Just for completion:

Quote:

Initial comparisons of the radar data from the USAF and the FAA showed that an offset in time was present. The 84th RADES found that the clock for the North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) lagged the clocks of the other sectors by 25.3 seconds. The other sectors were all in agreement with the Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) time. Therefore, 25.3 seconds must be added to the radar data from the 84th RADES.

Source

19th July 2010, 05:39 PM	#321
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	Originally Posted by bio It still does not add up! According to Cherie Gott, the "best time" of the birds flying from Otis to New York would have been 13,7 minutes. page 7. I assume in a direct way without detours. According to her, the fighters had to fly with 863 mph. page 7 source We know from the Otis-pilots, who flew to New York, they flew as fast as they could, but at 09:03 they were still 60 miles away from New York. For these remaining sixty miles, they had to fly 4,1 minutes more. This time is confirmed by one controller of Newark, who said, the fighters were just "a couple" of minutes away from an interception. Furthermore this time is indirectly confirmed with the "best time" account of Miss Gott (we account together 10 minutes (08:53 - 09:03) + 4,1 minutes= 14,1 minutes) BUT: According to the radar-data, the fighters were still 117 miles away not 60! Furthermore the pilots flew a detour not directly, but were just 0,4 minutes (14,1 - 13,7) away from the "best time" (13,7 minutes). Either the account of Miss Gott and the radar-data are wrong, or the witness accounts of the controller and the pilots. I hope, you can understand my thoughts. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/ Bob Varcapade: I rememember the two F-15’s. They were moments after the impact. And I was just said to myself, “If they only could’ve gotten there a couple minutes earlier. They just missed it.”
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

19th July 2010, 05:42 PM	#322
TheRedWorm I AM the Red Worm! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Body: Michigan, Heart: Chicago Posts: 3,881	Radar does not lie, but people can be mistaken.
	__________________ See I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve. -Joker Working them to death is murder. Making them live like pigs and dying from disease is murder. Shooting them next to a ditch is murder. Digging them up and burning them to hide your murder, is extra credit evil. -beachnut

19th July 2010, 05:53 PM	#323
fess Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hiding in the sticks. Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by bio i do not mean "looping" but loop (=Umweg) see the loop in folowing page: http://www.capecodtoday.com/images/C...102nd-map4.jpg You do realize, don't you, that this map puts the Otis jets outside of US airspace? And, your more direct route would have caused some very tense moments in not only the ATC sectors, but various cockpits as well.
	__________________ My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow. Last edited by fess; 19th July 2010 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Content

19th July 2010, 05:53 PM	#324
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	Originally Posted by bio how can you explain me the witness accounts? Could the pilots see the burning towers even in a distance 117 miles away? Could the faa controller see the fighters in Newark as the fighters were still 117 miles away from new york? Keep asking questions, bio, and don't accept the official lie.
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

19th July 2010, 05:55 PM	#325
TheRedWorm I AM the Red Worm! Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Body: Michigan, Heart: Chicago Posts: 3,881	Originally Posted by MaGZ Keep asking questions, bio, and don't accept the official lie. That's it, isn't it. Just keep JAQing off, and don't bother actually listening to answers. Don't try to actually learn, just stick your head in the sand and ignore anything that doesn't conform to your biases.
	__________________ See I'm not a monster, I'm just ahead of the curve. -Joker Working them to death is murder. Making them live like pigs and dying from disease is murder. Shooting them next to a ditch is murder. Digging them up and burning them to hide your murder, is extra credit evil. -beachnut

19th July 2010, 05:55 PM	#326
fitzgibbon Master Poster Join Date: May 2007 Location: Just west of the centre of the universe Posts: 2,537	Source or it didn't happen (and not that same damned YouTube video of a piece of paper)
	__________________ "Television is a circus, a carnival, a traveling troupe of acrobats, storytellers, dancers, singers, jugglers, side-show freaks, lion tamers, and football players. We're in the boredom-killing business! So if you want the truth... Go to God!" Howard Beale, "Network"

19th July 2010, 06:03 PM	#327
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319	Originally Posted by Reheat They were supersonic at around 18,000 ft in a descent headed from W-105 toward Manhattan. The were at 20,000 ft only when climbing or descending. They cruised at FL 290 on the portion after take-off and never went supersonic during this period. Only a stupid conspiracy theorists would continue to argue about when they went supersonic based on a passage in a book as opposed to recorded radar data which shows exactly when they were supersonic. Oystein, you are doing a laudable job trying to convince a "dyed-in-the-wool" delusional conspiracy theorists to accept facts. However, as evidenced by previous threads as well as this one that is not going to happen. There is no danger that anyone of consequence listening to his tripe, which has been smeared in his face in several threads already. As with most threads here at JREF, this one is well into the wasted bandwidth category and has been since about page 2. Are you really suggesting they did this (flying supersonic) after the second plane crash? Why would they do this?
MaGZ Suspended Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 6,319

19th July 2010, 06:06 PM	#328
Dog Town Space for Rent Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sunny blue sky, cold water. Posts: 4,461	Originally Posted by fitzgibbon Source or it didn't happen (and not that same damned YouTube video of a piece of paper) I always thought it looked more like a seagull.
	__________________ "Yes. I often wonder why it is that the nutjobs, who clearly think they're among a tiny handful of people who "get it", are wholly incapable of communicating effectively enough so that other people can understand them and "get it", too." Gee Mack, JREF 5/15/09

19th July 2010, 06:21 PM	#329
Reactor drone Muse Join Date: May 2009 Location: Ministry of housinge Posts: 624	Originally Posted by MaGZ Are you really suggesting they did this (flying supersonic) after the second plane crash? Why would they do this? Because at that time it was realised that planes were being used as weapons and they were getting to their patrol area ASAP to guard against any further threat.

19th July 2010, 06:33 PM	#330
Sam.I.Am Illuminator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Hunting Moose and Squirrel Posts: 4,154	At 117 Miles away the fighters only had to be at about 3,000 feet to see the smoke from the towers.
	__________________ "Swift, silent and deadly" was a part of my job description Upon hearing me say that my friend asked me "So you're a fart?"... About my avatar.

19th July 2010, 08:03 PM	#331
fess Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hiding in the sticks. Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by MaGZ Your argument is total nonsense. When Flight 11 turned South along the Hudson everyone watching the flight knew it was heading toward NYC. Or, Newark, Atlantic City, Philadelphia, DC, Miami... Quote: When fighters are scrambled to intercept an unknown is their first priority to avoid civilian aircraft... Not running into any aircraft would certainly be high on my priority list! Quote: ...and go into a holding pattern? If necessary.
	__________________ My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow.

19th July 2010, 08:05 PM	#332
fess Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hiding in the sticks. Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by MaGZ They could and did. They arrived at 9:03 and attempted to shoot down the second hijacked plane as it was crashing into WTC2. Still no proof?
	__________________ My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow.

19th July 2010, 10:47 PM	#333
bio Muse Join Date: May 2008 Location: Germany Posts: 883	thanks. perhaps the radar-data is okay, just the timeline, where the fighters were at 09:03, and the speed not? The fighters were flying "around" New York in W-105 and then turning and flying directly to New York City - can anybody show me the exercise "area", where w-105 is located?
	__________________ January 10, 2003, Senator Charles Grassley (R): "not only has no one in government been fired or punished for 9/11, but several others have been promoted."

19th July 2010, 11:12 PM	#334
fess Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hiding in the sticks. Posts: 1,036	Originally Posted by bio thanks. perhaps the radar-data is okay, just the timeline, where the fighters were at 09:03, and the speed not? The fighters were flying "around" New York in W-105 and then turning and flying directly to New York City - can anybody show me the exercise "area", where w-105 is located? Yes I can, if you can read an aeronautical chart.
	__________________ My boss told me to stop procrastinating. I think I will… tomorrow.

20th July 2010, 01:52 AM	#335
Oystein Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 9,731	Originally Posted by MaGZ Perhaps it was a doctored radar track. Perhaps your mother.... uhh let's not go there

20th July 2010, 01:54 AM	#336
Oystein Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 9,731	Originally Posted by MaGZ Your argument is total nonsense. When Flight 11 turned South along the Hudson everyone watching the flight knew it was heading toward NYC. When fighters are scrambled to intercept an unknown is their first priority to avoid civilian aircraft and go into a holding pattern? Do you really believe the nonsense you are presenting here? It is nonsense when it does not conform with your lied-up personal fantasy? You did not really understand what I said, by the way. For example, I wasn't talking about the holding pattern at all. It's just your imagination reading these things.

20th July 2010, 02:00 AM	#337
Oystein Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 9,731	Originally Posted by MaGZ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14754701/ Bob Varcapade: I rememember the two F-15’s. They were moments after the impact. And I was just said to myself, “If they only could’ve gotten there a couple minutes earlier. They just missed it.” I talked with a friend on the phone the other day. I could have sworn it was only 45 minutes of good, intense talk, but phone company records show it was 4 hours. You see, people's perception and recollection of time is easily off the mark by considerable factors, especially in very emotional situations.

20th July 2010, 02:03 AM	#338
Oystein Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 9,731	Originally Posted by MaGZ *Just* Keep asking questions, bio, and do~~n't~~ accept the ~~official~~ *truther* lies. ftfy

20th July 2010, 02:06 AM	#339
Oystein Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 9,731	Originally Posted by MaGZ Are you really suggesting they did this (flying supersonic) after the second plane crash? Why would they do this? He is not suggesting, he is stating as fact, derived from hard sources. Something truthers rarely do. Because only then was it clear that a concerted terrorist attack involving more than 1 plane was underway, which kinda immediately changed some priorities.

20th July 2010, 02:12 AM	#340
Oystein Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 9,731	Originally Posted by bio thanks. perhaps the radar-data is okay, just the timeline, where the fighters were at 09:03, and the speed not? ... Perhaps you are clinging to straws? Perhaps your sister... uhh no, I'll not go there. If the timeline ans speed are not ok, then the radar data is not okay. If you accept the radar data is ok, you must at the same time accept time and speed (to within reasonable limits). It is not unheard of that systems don't have the absolute correct time, but I remember reading somewhere (in the 9/11-commission report even?) how radar tracks of different sources were synchronized. We are talking here about clocks being off by less than half a minute. Nothing that would save your lied-up fantasies.

20th July 2010, 07:31 AM	#341
progge Thinker Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 167	Originally Posted by Oystein It is not unheard of that systems don't have the absolute correct time, but I remember reading somewhere (in the 9/11-commission report even?) how radar tracks of different sources were synchronized. We are talking here about clocks being off by less than half a minute. Just for completion: Quote: Initial comparisons of the radar data from the USAF and the FAA showed that an offset in time was present. The 84th RADES found that the clock for the North East Air Defense Sector (NEADS) lagged the clocks of the other sectors by 25.3 seconds. The other sectors were all in agreement with the Global Positioning Satellite (GPS) time. Therefore, 25.3 seconds must be added to the radar data from the 84th RADES. Source