Hate Unions? Hate Police and Fire Officers! - Page 2

AlBell · 7th September 2010, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by NYCEMT86

Really? Because this recent study would say otherwise.

Nothing like citing the fox guarding the chicken coop.

Have you heard of California or New Jersey? Pension benefits?

theprestige · 7th September 2010, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

the Op was meant to be a jab at Glenn Beck and others who blame unions for all sorts of problems.

I contend that it is possible to blame unions for all sorts of problems, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent.

I also contend that it is possible for unions to cause all sorts of problems, and be legitimately held responsible for the problems they cause, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent.

Finally, I contend that it is possible for the workers represented by a union to have really bad ideas, and to enthusiastically but wrongly support their union in causing all sorts of problems, and that it is possible to disagree with them--to disagree with the actual workers themselves, who make up the union, and to oppose them at every turn--without hating them or the good work they may also do.

Thus, without being developed into a coherent rebuttal of the actual arguments presented by "Glenn Beck and others" (what others? do they have names? arguments you're prepared to rebut?) the OP comes across as less of a jab and more of a strawman, not to mention an attempted inoculation against any legitimate opposition to or criticism of unions.

NYCEMT86 · 7th September 2010, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by AlBell

Nothing like citing the fox guarding the chicken coop.

Have you heard of California or New Jersey? Pension benefits?

So you didn't read the study?

Here is a small tip though...California and New Jersey DOES NOT EQUAL all or even the majority of the country.

Dancing David · 8th September 2010, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I contend that it is possible to blame unions for all sorts of problems, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent.

I also contend that it is possible for unions to cause all sorts of problems, and be legitimately held responsible for the problems they cause, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent.

Finally, I contend that it is possible for the workers represented by a union to have really bad ideas, and to enthusiastically but wrongly support their union in causing all sorts of problems, and that it is possible to disagree with them--to disagree with the actual workers themselves, who make up the union, and to oppose them at every turn--without hating them or the good work they may also do.

Thus, without being developed into a coherent rebuttal of the actual arguments presented by "Glenn Beck and others" (what others? do they have names? arguments you're prepared to rebut?) the OP comes across as less of a jab and more of a strawman, not to mention an attempted inoculation against any legitimate opposition to or criticism of unions.

Wow I bet Rapunzel would be impressed by all the straw you spun into gold.

Cicero · 8th September 2010, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Hate the teacher not the union!

(I must say there is akways some silly stuff around unions.)

Why not loathe the AFT/NEA and local teacher unions? They serve no useful purpose other than to insure incompetent "teachers" stay on the payroll.

They protested the LA Times publishing the value-added ratings.

"It is the height of journalistic irresponsibility to make public these deeply flawed judgments about a teacher's effectiveness," said a statement issued by United Teachers Los Angeles.

TragicMonkey · 8th September 2010, 10:09 AM

I expect many Americans are like me: sympathetic to the plight of the workers right up until the reporter mentions those worker's average income, and it's always way more than I make. Then I wonder why I'm supposed to care about people who don't care about me, and who seem to make more money and have much better benefits.

Dancing David · 8th September 2010, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Why not loathe the AFT/NEA and local teacher unions? They serve no useful purpose other than to insure incompetent "teachers" stay on the payroll.

They protested the LA Times publishing the value-added ratings.

"It is the height of journalistic irresponsibility to make public these deeply flawed judgments about a teacher's effectiveness," said a statement issued by United Teachers Los Angeles.

Unions are what they are, and they do what they do. I am not defending them wholesale, and I am very willing to discuss their problems. In another post if you wish.

When I see administration make choices with no accountability and retain staff that they could write up? You know that contracts do have policies for that? Instead they turn a blind eye to their cronies and persecute people who aren't, I see why unions exit. there are staff who never show at their duty, they come late to work and they leave early, they abuse the students and are crappy workers, but because they are friends with the boss, they are okay. Hell one of my principals couldn’t even make it to work, and what did the district assistant superintendent do, apparently not fire her. They don’t even have a contract of more than a year.

You can be disciplined under both the contracts in my district, you can be dismissed under both contracts in my district. The union can not stop discipline, you have to meet work place expectations and standards, you get the warning, if that fails you get the plan, if that fails then you get fired. the union can not stop that.

So what are the principal's doing?

The school board is just as culpable as the teacher's unions. There are as many thing wrong with schools as their are players in them, it is not a solitary issue, it is not solely the unions.

I would have to judge the evaluation form and procedure, but I don't take what a union leader says at face value. (Just as I listen to what the board and superintendent say very carefully) Student performance is not just the teacher's responsibility. I am all for accountability but the implementation of NCLB is problematic. Aggregate scores are useful, but not as useful as individual tracking.

It is well know that some principals will place behavior problem children to teachers that they don't like (although the good principals spread them evenly), if evaluation is based upon individual demographic matching and individual progress then I would be more comfortable with it. But when we have parents who do not even think it is important for their child to be in school, and the truant officer has to talk to them about their child's attendance because they miss 30% of the time, that make a teacher's score bad.

Then there is the hidden problem of the slow students, nobody wants to talk about it either. they are the 13.5% of students who have an IQ of 70-85, they will never succeed at the same level as their peers, they receive no extra support whatsoever, period. They do not qualify for special education. They will always be behind their peers no matter what. Is a teacher responsible for that?

That is why individual tracking and individual progress is important, rather than aggregate tracking.

Note even counting the issues of poverty and bad parenting, which teachers also have to compensate for.

So I am all for teacher evaluations, as long as they are meaningful, reflect the individual students and the social demographics that the students are in.

Dancing David · 8th September 2010, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

I expect many Americans are like me: sympathetic to the plight of the workers right up until the reporter mentions those worker's average income, and it's always way more than I make. Then I wonder why I'm supposed to care about people who don't care about me, and who seem to make more money and have much better benefits.

I agree, some salaries are silly, but so is the way that corporate america runs things. there is a reason private companies do not run schools.

Dr. Fascism · 8th September 2010, 09:58 PM

It's not that hard to hate police officers.

pipelineaudio · 8th September 2010, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

there is a reason private companies do not run schools.

Except a lot of the best schools anyway

thaiboxerken · 9th September 2010, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Except a lot of the best schools anyway

Evidence?

rkzenrage · 9th September 2010, 01:46 AM

I don't hate unions, just what most of them have become (which is the opposite of how they started out). Most are more of a hindrance to the workers than they help.
There are exceptions like SAG, but most are just giant, legal, organized crime.

Dancing David · 9th September 2010, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by pipelineaudio

Except a lot of the best schools anyway

What is that supposed to mean?
That schools that have stringent entrance criteria and exams, and kick out students with behavior problems do better?

If public schools have so much extra money and waste why aren't they being privatized?

Dancing David · 9th September 2010, 04:45 AM

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I don't hate unions, just what most of them have become (which is the opposite of how they started out). Most are more of a hindrance to the workers than they help.
There are exceptions like SAG, but most are just giant, legal, organized crime.

So what evidence do you have that unions are just legal organized crime?

Cicero · 9th September 2010, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

What is that supposed to mean?
That schools that have stringent entrance criteria and exams, and kick out students with behavior problems do better?

Is there any doubt?

Quote:

If public schools have so much extra money and waste why aren't they being privatized?

Charter schools are a step in the right direction even if they still rely on property taxes for funding.

AlBell · 9th September 2010, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by NYCEMT86

Here is a small tip though...California and New Jersey DOES NOT EQUAL all or even the majority of the country.

Not yet, but cheer up. Other states are heading there as rapidly as unions can manage.

Dancing David · 9th September 2010, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Cicero

Is there any doubt?

Charter schools are a step in the right direction even if they still rely on property taxes for funding.

Except charter schools receive extra funding and can deny student entry.

Beerina · 9th September 2010, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

rather simple, actually. Capitalists have the mistaken notion that it is they who create the wealth, and that everyone needs to kiss their wealthy butts to get a piece of it.

Hate to burst your bubble, but union workers owe engineers and businessmen a lot more than the reverse, regardless of how much they may be payed.

It is because the former exist that the latter can stand there making arm motions and have a house and two cars in the garage. Those same motions out in the field would get them starved to death rather quickly.

These masses of "union" people need their betters to think up stuff for them to do, and, as such, owe their betters a whole hell of a lot.

Dancing David · 9th September 2010, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Hate to burst your bubble, but union workers owe engineers and businessmen a lot more than the reverse, regardless of how much they may be payed.

It is because the former exist that the latter can stand there making arm motions and have a house and two cars in the garage. Those same motions out in the field would get them starved to death rather quickly.

These masses of "union" people need their betters to think up stuff for them to do, and, as such, owe their betters a whole hell of a lot.

Wow, some unions must pay better than others, we both work and we both have used Saturns... hmmm... I wonder if I could be a steel worker?

Not that lefty makes any sense.

theprestige · 9th September 2010, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

Wow I bet Rapunzel would be impressed by all the straw you spun into gold.

Are you now claiming that your OP does not, in fact, equate hating unions with hating firefighters and and police officers?

leftysergeant · 9th September 2010, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Are you now claiming that your OP does not, in fact, equate hating unions with hating firefighters and and police officers?

Actually, you are treating them with contempt. You want to remove the one inhibiting factor that keeps the rightwhackers from achieving their goal of equalizing private and public sector workers' benefits.

Every day you hear them shrieking about how government workers make to much when the problem, actually, is that the private sectors pays the workers too little so that they can payt their executives too much.

We still need the unions as a bulwark between working people and the oligarchists in the event that the government falls into the wrong hands again.

leftysergeant · 9th September 2010, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

Hate to burst your bubble, but union workers owe engineers and businessmen a lot more than the reverse, regardless of how much they may be payed.

It is because the former exist that the latter can stand there making arm motions and have a house and two cars in the garage.

Bull flops. If work needs to be done, there will be a way to get it done.

If noone is willing to work, you may as well burn your money for heat because it will not buy you coal that noone digs out of the ground.

leftysergeant · 9th September 2010, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Beerina

These masses of "union" people need their betters to think up stuff for them to do, and, as such, owe their betters a whole hell of a lot.

Feudalist twaddle.

theprestige · 9th September 2010, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by leftysergeant

Actually, you are treating them with contempt. You want to remove the one inhibiting factor that keeps the rightwhackers from achieving their goal of equalizing private and public sector workers' benefits.

Every day you hear them shrieking about how government workers make to much when the problem, actually, is that the private sectors pays the workers too little so that they can payt their executives too much.

We still need the unions as a bulwark between working people and the oligarchists in the event that the government falls into the wrong hands again.

I contend that it is possible to blame unions for all sorts of problems, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent.

I also contend that it is possible for unions to cause all sorts of problems, and be legitimately held responsible for the problems they cause, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent.

Finally, I contend that it is possible for the workers represented by a union to have really bad ideas, and to enthusiastically but wrongly support their union in causing all sorts of problems, and that it is possible to disagree with them--to disagree with the actual workers themselves, who make up the union, and to oppose them at every turn--without hating them or the good work they may also do.

Thus, without being developed into a coherent rebuttal of the actual arguments presented by "Glenn Beck and others" (what others? do they have names? arguments you're prepared to rebut?) the OP comes across as less of a jab and more of a strawman, not to mention an attempted inoculation against any legitimate opposition to or criticism of unions.

rkzenrage · 10th September 2010, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Dancing David

So what evidence do you have that unions are just legal organized crime?

I live in a right to work state... try to get a job as a welder even here. I also worked as a teacher, that union is a disgrace.
The percentage of the dues used to help the members and the lobbying against the best interests of all Americans are disgusting.

7th September 2010, 05:40 AM	#41
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,505	Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 Really? Because this recent study would say otherwise. Nothing like citing the fox guarding the chicken coop. Have you heard of California or New Jersey? Pension benefits?
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,505	__________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." M. Thatcher, Economics: Share The Wealth. Obamanomics: Share The Pain. Important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real.

7th September 2010, 06:27 PM	#42
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,643	Originally Posted by Dancing David the Op was meant to be a jab at Glenn Beck and others who blame unions for all sorts of problems. I contend that it is possible to blame unions for all sorts of problems, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent. I also contend that it is possible for unions to cause all sorts of problems, and be legitimately held responsible for the problems they cause, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent. Finally, I contend that it is possible for the workers represented by a union to have really bad ideas, and to enthusiastically but wrongly support their union in causing all sorts of problems, and that it is possible to disagree with them--to disagree with the actual workers themselves, who make up the union, and to oppose them at every turn--without hating them or the good work they may also do. Thus, without being developed into a coherent rebuttal of the actual arguments presented by "Glenn Beck and others" (what others? do they have names? arguments you're prepared to rebut?) the OP comes across as less of a jab and more of a strawman, not to mention an attempted inoculation against any legitimate opposition to or criticism of unions.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,643

7th September 2010, 06:40 PM	#43
NYCEMT86 Graduate Poster Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Slums of Brooklyn Posts: 1,058	Originally Posted by AlBell Nothing like citing the fox guarding the chicken coop. Have you heard of California or New Jersey? Pension benefits? So you didn't read the study? Here is a small tip though...California and New Jersey DOES NOT EQUAL all or even the majority of the country.
	__________________ I bringth the Amber lamps "The most beautiful four words in the common language is: I told you so." - Vidal

8th September 2010, 09:39 AM	#44
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by theprestige I contend that it is possible to blame unions for all sorts of problems, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent. I also contend that it is possible for unions to cause all sorts of problems, and be legitimately held responsible for the problems they cause, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent. Finally, I contend that it is possible for the workers represented by a union to have really bad ideas, and to enthusiastically but wrongly support their union in causing all sorts of problems, and that it is possible to disagree with them--to disagree with the actual workers themselves, who make up the union, and to oppose them at every turn--without hating them or the good work they may also do. Thus, without being developed into a coherent rebuttal of the actual arguments presented by "Glenn Beck and others" (what others? do they have names? arguments you're prepared to rebut?) the OP comes across as less of a jab and more of a strawman, not to mention an attempted inoculation against any legitimate opposition to or criticism of unions. Wow I bet Rapunzel would be impressed by all the straw you spun into gold.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

8th September 2010, 10:02 AM	#45
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Dancing David Hate the teacher not the union! (I must say there is akways some silly stuff around unions.) Why not loathe the AFT/NEA and local teacher unions? They serve no useful purpose other than to insure incompetent "teachers" stay on the payroll. They protested the LA Times publishing the value-added ratings. "It is the height of journalistic irresponsibility to make public these deeply flawed judgments about a teacher's effectiveness," said a statement issued by United Teachers Los Angeles.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

8th September 2010, 10:09 AM	#46
TragicMonkey Poisoned Waffles Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Monkey Posts: 30,108	I expect many Americans are like me: sympathetic to the plight of the workers right up until the reporter mentions those worker's average income, and it's always way more than I make. Then I wonder why I'm supposed to care about people who don't care about me, and who seem to make more money and have much better benefits.
	__________________ One cannot expect wisdom to flow from a pumpkin.

8th September 2010, 07:25 PM	#47
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by Cicero Why not loathe the AFT/NEA and local teacher unions? They serve no useful purpose other than to insure incompetent "teachers" stay on the payroll. They protested the LA Times publishing the value-added ratings. "It is the height of journalistic irresponsibility to make public these deeply flawed judgments about a teacher's effectiveness," said a statement issued by United Teachers Los Angeles. Unions are what they are, and they do what they do. I am not defending them wholesale, and I am very willing to discuss their problems. In another post if you wish. When I see administration make choices with no accountability and retain staff that they could write up? You know that contracts do have policies for that? Instead they turn a blind eye to their cronies and persecute people who aren't, I see why unions exit. there are staff who never show at their duty, they come late to work and they leave early, they abuse the students and are crappy workers, but because they are friends with the boss, they are okay. Hell one of my principals couldn’t even make it to work, and what did the district assistant superintendent do, apparently not fire her. They don’t even have a contract of more than a year. You can be disciplined under both the contracts in my district, you can be dismissed under both contracts in my district. The union can not stop discipline, you have to meet work place expectations and standards, you get the warning, if that fails you get the plan, if that fails then you get fired. the union can not stop that. So what are the principal's doing? The school board is just as culpable as the teacher's unions. There are as many thing wrong with schools as their are players in them, it is not a solitary issue, it is not solely the unions. I would have to judge the evaluation form and procedure, but I don't take what a union leader says at face value. (Just as I listen to what the board and superintendent say very carefully) Student performance is not just the teacher's responsibility. I am all for accountability but the implementation of NCLB is problematic. Aggregate scores are useful, but not as useful as individual tracking. It is well know that some principals will place behavior problem children to teachers that they don't like (although the good principals spread them evenly), if evaluation is based upon individual demographic matching and individual progress then I would be more comfortable with it. But when we have parents who do not even think it is important for their child to be in school, and the truant officer has to talk to them about their child's attendance because they miss 30% of the time, that make a teacher's score bad. Then there is the hidden problem of the slow students, nobody wants to talk about it either. they are the 13.5% of students who have an IQ of 70-85, they will never succeed at the same level as their peers, they receive no extra support whatsoever, period. They do not qualify for special education. They will always be behind their peers no matter what. Is a teacher responsible for that? That is why individual tracking and individual progress is important, rather than aggregate tracking. Note even counting the issues of poverty and bad parenting, which teachers also have to compensate for. So I am all for teacher evaluations, as long as they are meaningful, reflect the individual students and the social demographics that the students are in.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

8th September 2010, 07:27 PM	#48
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey I expect many Americans are like me: sympathetic to the plight of the workers right up until the reporter mentions those worker's average income, and it's always way more than I make. Then I wonder why I'm supposed to care about people who don't care about me, and who seem to make more money and have much better benefits. I agree, some salaries are silly, but so is the way that corporate america runs things. there is a reason private companies do not run schools.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

8th September 2010, 09:58 PM	#49
Dr. Fascism Critical Thinker Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: 9th Circle of Hell Posts: 383	It's not that hard to hate police officers.

8th September 2010, 10:42 PM	#50
pipelineaudio Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wickenburg, AZ Posts: 3,670	Originally Posted by Dancing David there is a reason private companies do not run schools. Except a lot of the best schools anyway
	__________________ Can someone give me a better name for SLAG FAIRY?

9th September 2010, 01:33 AM	#51
thaiboxerken Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 20,977	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Except a lot of the best schools anyway Evidence?
	__________________ All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power & profit - Thomas Paine

9th September 2010, 01:46 AM	#52
rkzenrage Scholar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 66	I don't hate unions, just what most of them have become (which is the opposite of how they started out). Most are more of a hindrance to the workers than they help. There are exceptions like SAG, but most are just giant, legal, organized crime.

9th September 2010, 04:44 AM	#53
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by pipelineaudio Except a lot of the best schools anyway What is that supposed to mean? That schools that have stringent entrance criteria and exams, and kick out students with behavior problems do better? If public schools have so much extra money and waste why aren't they being privatized?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

9th September 2010, 04:45 AM	#54
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by rkzenrage I don't hate unions, just what most of them have become (which is the opposite of how they started out). Most are more of a hindrance to the workers than they help. There are exceptions like SAG, but most are just giant, legal, organized crime. So what evidence do you have that unions are just legal organized crime?
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

9th September 2010, 07:51 AM	#55
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861	Originally Posted by Dancing David What is that supposed to mean? That schools that have stringent entrance criteria and exams, and kick out students with behavior problems do better? Is there any doubt? Quote: If public schools have so much extra money and waste why aren't they being privatized? Charter schools are a step in the right direction even if they still rely on property taxes for funding.
Cicero Banned Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 7,861

9th September 2010, 08:55 AM	#56
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,505	Originally Posted by NYCEMT86 Here is a small tip though...California and New Jersey DOES NOT EQUAL all or even the majority of the country. Not yet, but cheer up. Other states are heading there as rapidly as unions can manage.
AlBell Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 5,505	__________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." M. Thatcher, Economics: Share The Wealth. Obamanomics: Share The Pain. Important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real.

9th September 2010, 09:48 AM	#57
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by Cicero Is there any doubt? Charter schools are a step in the right direction even if they still rely on property taxes for funding. Except charter schools receive extra funding and can deny student entry.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

9th September 2010, 12:44 PM	#58
Beerina Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: A floating island above the clouds Posts: 23,835	Originally Posted by leftysergeant rather simple, actually. Capitalists have the mistaken notion that it is they who create the wealth, and that everyone needs to kiss their wealthy butts to get a piece of it. Hate to burst your bubble, but union workers owe engineers and businessmen a lot more than the reverse, regardless of how much they may be payed. It is because the former exist that the latter can stand there making arm motions and have a house and two cars in the garage. Those same motions out in the field would get them starved to death rather quickly. These masses of "union" people need their betters to think up stuff for them to do, and, as such, owe their betters a whole hell of a lot.
	__________________ "Great innovations should not be forced [by way of] slender majorities." - Thomas Jefferson The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales *now!* More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?

9th September 2010, 12:54 PM	#59
Dancing David Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Central Illinois Posts: 34,725	Originally Posted by Beerina Hate to burst your bubble, but union workers owe engineers and businessmen a lot more than the reverse, regardless of how much they may be payed. It is because the former exist that the latter can stand there making arm motions and have a house and two cars in the garage. Those same motions out in the field would get them starved to death rather quickly. These masses of "union" people need their betters to think up stuff for them to do, and, as such, owe their betters a whole hell of a lot. Wow, some unions must pay better than others, we both work and we both have used Saturns... hmmm... I wonder if I could be a steel worker? Not that lefty makes any sense.
	__________________ Hell, dynamiting fish in a barrel is more challenging. - Ladewig I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager

9th September 2010, 05:32 PM	#60
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,643	Originally Posted by Dancing David Wow I bet Rapunzel would be impressed by all the straw you spun into gold. Are you now claiming that your OP does not, in fact, equate hating unions with hating firefighters and and police officers?
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,643

9th September 2010, 05:37 PM	#61
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by theprestige Are you now claiming that your OP does not, in fact, equate hating unions with hating firefighters and and police officers? Actually, you are treating them with contempt. You want to remove the one inhibiting factor that keeps the rightwhackers from achieving their goal of equalizing private and public sector workers' benefits. Every day you hear them shrieking about how government workers make to much when the problem, actually, is that the private sectors pays the workers too little so that they can payt their executives too much. We still need the unions as a bulwark between working people and the oligarchists in the event that the government falls into the wrong hands again.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

9th September 2010, 05:39 PM	#62
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Beerina Hate to burst your bubble, but union workers owe engineers and businessmen a lot more than the reverse, regardless of how much they may be payed. It is because the former exist that the latter can stand there making arm motions and have a house and two cars in the garage. Bull flops. If work needs to be done, there will be a way to get it done. If noone is willing to work, you may as well burn your money for heat because it will not buy you coal that noone digs out of the ground.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

9th September 2010, 05:41 PM	#63
leftysergeant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Spanaway WA Posts: 18,613	Originally Posted by Beerina These masses of "union" people need their betters to think up stuff for them to do, and, as such, owe their betters a whole hell of a lot. Feudalist twaddle.
	__________________ No civilization ever collapsed because the poor had too much to eat.

9th September 2010, 07:41 PM	#64
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,643	Originally Posted by leftysergeant Actually, you are treating them with contempt. You want to remove the one inhibiting factor that keeps the rightwhackers from achieving their goal of equalizing private and public sector workers' benefits. Every day you hear them shrieking about how government workers make to much when the problem, actually, is that the private sectors pays the workers too little so that they can payt their executives too much. We still need the unions as a bulwark between working people and the oligarchists in the event that the government falls into the wrong hands again. I contend that it is possible to blame unions for all sorts of problems, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent. I also contend that it is possible for unions to cause all sorts of problems, and be legitimately held responsible for the problems they cause, without also hating the workers those unions purport to represent. Finally, I contend that it is possible for the workers represented by a union to have really bad ideas, and to enthusiastically but wrongly support their union in causing all sorts of problems, and that it is possible to disagree with them--to disagree with the actual workers themselves, who make up the union, and to oppose them at every turn--without hating them or the good work they may also do. Thus, without being developed into a coherent rebuttal of the actual arguments presented by "Glenn Beck and others" (what others? do they have names? arguments you're prepared to rebut?) the OP comes across as less of a jab and more of a strawman, not to mention an attempted inoculation against any legitimate opposition to or criticism of unions.
theprestige Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 8,643

10th September 2010, 04:58 PM	#65
rkzenrage Scholar Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Central Florida Posts: 66	Originally Posted by Dancing David So what evidence do you have that unions are just legal organized crime? I live in a right to work state... try to get a job as a welder even here. I also worked as a teacher, that union is a disgrace. The percentage of the dues used to help the members and the lobbying against the best interests of all Americans are disgusting.