Merged: Rep. Giffords Shot In Tucson

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Of course you need specific evidence to connect the shooter to any group. You already knew this though.

Just out of curiosity, regardless of who this shooter was or hell, let's assume the shooting never happened, do you find Palin's crosshairs appropriate? How about shooting M-16's at Giffords photo? How about Angle and her "second amendment remedies?"

I can't speak for everyone on this board, but I have no interest in condemning all right leaning people for this crime, should the gunner turn out to motivated by such things, it's too early to know.

But I do have an interest in condemning all these people bringing guns to townhall meetings and calling Obama a muslim terrorist or babbling about death panels.

We can disagree, we can even call each other ********, but we cannot, if we want to remain a civilized country, incite violence. It is clear to me that many figures on the right are doing just that. Maybe there are some such folks on the left, but they are not nearly as high profile. We're talking about senate candidates, vice presidential candidates, people with prime time television shows...etc.

[geni]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

And the reason for going right up to this Congresswoman and putting rounds directly in her head at point blank range as witnesses have reported was just the luck of the draw for the Congresswoman?

Politicians have enough profile that crazy people do go after them from time to time.

The guy who attacked Nigel Jones (then a lib dem MP) with a Samurai sword for example. Or John Hinckley, Jr. in the US.

[Biscuit]

Just got another radio update clarifying that Giffords is, in fact, dead.

Need to correct a statement I made back on page one. She is not my representative. Grijalva is.

[Soapy Sam]

Is that PAC map thing an official political party website?
Can someone fill us Brits in on a bit of the detail re Palin and Giffords and just what is implied by this shooting?

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Just out of curiosity, regardless of who this shooter was or hell, let's assume the shooting never happened, do you find Palin's crosshairs appropriate? How about shooting M-16's at Giffords photo? How about Angle and her "second amendment remedies?"

I can't speak for everyone on this board, but I have no interest in condemning all right leaning people for this crime, should the gunner turn out to motivated by such things, it's too early to know.

But I do have an interest in condemning all these people bringing guns to townhall meetings and calling Obama a muslim terrorist or babbling about death panels.

We can disagree, we can even call each other ********, but we cannot, if we want to remain a civilized country, incite violence. It is clear to me that many figures on the right are doing just that. Maybe there are some such folks on the left, but they are not nearly as high profile. We're talking about senate candidates, vice presidential candidates, people with prime time television shows...etc.

Well said, and I agree.

[dtugg]

Giffords serves my hometown in Congress. This really sad. I hope she makes it.

I don't how you people could possibly be pinning this on Sarah Palin though. You are all crazy.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Don't be silly. It's Bush's fault.

If you go back to really get at the beginning of this, I'd say blame Reagan's staff that grew to become the Frank Luntz, Karl Rove campaign tacticians. And you can add their facilitators, Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes.

That was the root of the use of the campaign tactic to really push the message that 'the other side is evil and dangerous and you should be afraid", and to promote that message with very carefully designed, pervasive, incessant, dishonest talking points. The "death panel" lie is one example of this kind of fear campaigning. Encouraging bigotry against the immigrant populations and Muslims is another part of this dangerous campaign tactic.

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Is that PAC map thing an official political party website?
Can someone fill us Brits in on a bit of the detail re Palin and Giffords and just what is implied by this shooting?

Palin picked a group of Tea Party candidates to support. The map with the crosshairs was "targeting" Democratic figures for removal from office. The idea was to get people to donate money to the Tea Party figure to "take out" the Democrat.

It was fairly widely reported as in poor taste when she put it up, but she stubbornly kept it up.

Evidently the inappropriateness finally dawned on her or someone in her camp.

[applecorped]

I don't even know why you are linking anything about this shooting to anyone at this point. You have no evidence, none. Maybe waiting for more information would be the prudent thing to do, yes?

[TraneWreck]

Just heard that Gifford is still alive and was talking as she entered surgery.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

...There are endless possibilities about why this happened, but this is the sort of thing people have been warning Beck, Palin and others who are calling folks "unAmerican" or "Communist" would happen.

Maybe it's completely unrelated, but knowing nothing more than the party of the victim and the area where it happened, it's a reasonable suspicion.

It will be interesting to see whose books and literature the shooter has laying around at his home.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Palin picked a group of Tea Party candidates to support. The map with the crosshairs was "targeting" Democratic figures for removal from office. The idea was to get people to donate money to the Tea Party figure to "take out" the Democrat.

It was fairly widely reported as in poor taste when she put it up, but she stubbornly kept it up.

Evidently the inappropriateness finally dawned on her or someone in her camp.

HOlding a fundraiser where you shoot your opponent's picture with an m-16 isn't exactly cricket, either.

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by applecorped

I don't even know why you are linking anything about this shooting to anyone at this point. You have no evidence, none. Maybe waiting for more information would be the prudent thing to do, yes?

Do you notice that I specifically asked your opinion assuming the shooting never occurred?

[applecorped]

Of course I noticed. I disregarded it. This isn't about Palin right now even though you seem to want it to be, badly.

[ANTPogo]

Apparently, Giffords has had problems in the past with gun-toting people showing up to her Congressional Meet and Greets at Safeway grocery stores.

Quote:

But for now Giffords is not interested in engaging with people her staff says are using “manipulation” and “racism” to spread their message.

“Yelling and screaming is counterproductive,” she told the Sierra Vista Herald at a Congress on Your Corner event last week. There, one visitor dropped a gun at the meet n’ greet held in a Douglas Safeway, her staff says.

That has aides, who called police to the event, concerned for her safety.

“We have never felt the need before to notify law enforcement when we hold these events,” said spokesman C.J. Karamargin.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by geni

Politicians have enough profile that crazy people do go after them from time to time.

The guy who attacked Nigel Jones (then a lib dem MP) with a Samurai sword for example. Or John Hinckley, Jr. in the US.

You can't rule out a psychotic motive unrelated to the political rhetoric. All of us are pretty much saying that the political rhetoric is just much more likely, and should be stopped whether this is related or not.

[BenBurch]

AP confirms shooter in custody.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You can't rule out a psychotic motive unrelated to the political rhetoric. All of us are pretty much saying that the political rhetoric is just much more likely, and should be stopped whether this is related or not.

How do you propose stopping political rhetoric?

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by Soapy Sam

Is that PAC map thing an official political party website?
Can someone fill us Brits in on a bit of the detail re Palin and Giffords and just what is implied by this shooting?

I doubt the two have ever meet but her recent re-election to congress was a bitter fight against a tea party backed candidate. She was accused of all kinds of things and a great deal of money was poured into her opponents campaign in a smear campaign. Some of the ads were rated as the worst of the worst with regards to truth and accuracy by independent organizations. Palin backed her opponent in the race and attacked Giffords for voting for health care reform and being weak on immigration and not loving america and the like.

There were signs all over Tucson with false statements regarding Giffords. Most of them appeared to be home made.

My friend is getting updates from the police command center and reports the following as of right now

19 shot
5 dead
Giffords in critical condition undergoing surgery

ETA - my friend says an unconfirmed report that the shooter was an illegal immigrant.

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Of course I noticed. I disregarded it. This isn't about Palin right now even though you seem to want it to be, badly.

Not her, alone, but this could very well be about the climate created by hyperbolic rhetoric painting political opponents as "traitors" and "Un-American" and "terrorists."

Do you think every suicide bomber from Palestine is a lone nut, or do the rhetoric and beliefs of the population have some effect on their behavior?

It's clear that the man who murderd Dr. Tiller was operating out of a community that promoted violence against abortion doctors. The language towards Congresspeople who voted for health care or had differing opinions on immigration are similarly severe.

Do you condemn that language or approve of it?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by applecorped

Of course I noticed. I disregarded it. This isn't about Palin right now even though you seem to want it to be, badly.

Why is it that you've taken to this lie? It's the second time in a week someone on the right made the ludicrous claim the left "wants" what they are describing they see to be true. We are describing what we see. Why in hell would we "want" something like that to be true?

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by applecorped

How do you propose stopping political rhetoric?

We could start by printing up thousands of Glen Beck practice targets...


No, I'm not serious, but if I did and some unstable Democrat killed him, I would be blameless?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

I doubt the two have ever meet but her recent re-election to congress was a bitter fight against a tea party backed candidate. She was accused of all kinds of things and a great deal of money was poured into her opponents campaign in a smear campaign. Some of the ads were rated as the worst of the worst with regards to truth and accuracy by independent organizations. Palin backed her opponent in the race and attacked Giffords for voting for health care reform and being weak on immigration and not loving america and the like.

There were signs all over Tucson with false statements regarding Giffords. Most of them appeared to be home made.

My friend is getting updates from the police command center and reports the following as of right now

19 shot
5 dead
Giffords in critical condition undergoing surgery

What kind of weapon was used? Did they say?

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What kind of weapon was used? Did they say?

Semi auto pistol from earlier reports

new update from police command via my friend


19 shot
9 in surgery
5 dead, one is a child

[BenBurch]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What kind of weapon was used? Did they say?

A Tucson radio guy I just talked to said he heard a report unconfirmed that it was a full-auto machine pistol.

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

What kind of weapon was used? Did they say?

Evidently they took a Glock 9mm into evidence. A firearms expert said it could get off 15-20 rounds in a matter of seconds.

Some reports that fire was returned, but get ready for the inevitable, "if only everyone in that crowd had a gun, this wouldn't have happened.'

Arizona has concealed carry laws, by the way.

[Denver]

Maybe it's just me, but it seems a little awkward that the local CNN affiliate covering this is KGUN.

[quadraginta]

Local station KOLD 13 with live streaming coverage on their website here, if anyone is interested.

[dtugg]

I bet it was a Glock 17. You can fire 18 rounds from one very quickly without reloading.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Biscuit

Semi auto pistol from earlier reports

new update from police command via my friend


... dead, one is a child

That is so sad.

[MattusMaximus]

Originally Posted by applecorped

The long jump to conclusions begins!!!

No kidding. Folks, how about we all just take a deep breath and wait for some actual facts to come to light about the shooting & the shooter, etc? I have already heard liberals ranting about how "this must have been a Tea Party nut" and I've already heard conservatives scream about how "the shooter was an illegal immigrant". Conspiracy theories are being spun faster than you can say "9/11 coverup"

Especially in this politically charged environment, the last thing we need to go doing right now is jumping to conclusions, pointing fingers at "the other side", and basically engaging in rampant & irresponsible confirmation bias. From what I've seen on this thread so far, there are way too many so-called skeptics displaying blatant irrationality in this regard - you should be better than that.

Let the authorities do their jobs. Until then, everyone just chill the **** out.

ETA: This article, about 10 minutes old, seems to contain the most updated info as of this point.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Denver

Maybe it's just me, but it seems a little awkward that the local CNN affiliate covering this is KGUN.

One wonders why they'd even keep those call letters.

[TraneWreck]

The reports about return fire have been confirmed. It's unknown if the suspect was injured.

I really hope the return fire didn't hit anyone. This sounds like an insane, chaotic scene.

[applecorped]

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

No kidding. Folks, how about we all just take a deep breath and wait for some actual facts to come to light about the shooting & the shooter, etc?

Especially in this politically charged environment, the last thing we need to go doing right now is jumping to conclusions, pointing fingers at "the other side", and basically engaging in rampant & irresponsible confirmation bias.

Let the authorities do their jobs. Until then, chill.

Too late.

[Drudgewire]

Originally Posted by BenBurch

A Tucson radio guy I just talked to said he heard a report unconfirmed that it was a full-auto machine pistol.

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Evidently they took a Glock 9mm into evidence.

Why does neither of those reports surprise me?

[Biscuit]

Originally Posted by TraneWreck

Arizona has concealed carry laws, by the way.

Yes we do. It use to be through a system that required a background check, hours of training and live fire demonstration of competence. One could not have any felonies or domestic violence charges if they wanted a liscence to carry concealed. In the last year the requirements were dropped and the actual license was done away with. This was a measure supported by the NRA and other right wing groups.

Myself, a concealed carry owner, and every single gun owner I know was against the repeal. It was pushed through by lobbyist in our glorious state capital.

New report from police command via my friend saying the shooter was an afghan veteran.

[Monketey Ghost]

Drudgewire, thanks for a laff in all the sadness.^

[Dorian Gray]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Republican or Democrat? Gosh, I hope she's okay.

FTFY. I hope you didn't ask that to see whether or not to feel bad about this.

[TraneWreck]

Originally Posted by MattusMaximus

No kidding. Folks, how about we all just take a deep breath and wait for some actual facts to come to light about the shooting & the shooter, etc? I have already heard liberals ranting about how "this must have been a Tea Party nut" and I've already heard conservatives scream about how "the shooter was an illegal immigrant".

Especially in this politically charged environment, the last thing we need to go doing right now is jumping to conclusions, pointing fingers at "the other side", and basically engaging in rampant & irresponsible confirmation bias.

Let the authorities do their jobs. Until then, everyone just chill the **** out.

ETA: This article, about 10 minutes old, seems to contain the most updated info as of this point.

Originally Posted by applecorped

Too late.

Yes, make sure no one says anything or has any discussion about the matter until everything is known. Otherwise...something will happen.

What the hell else are we supposed to talk about? We're not journalists, we're not spreading rumors, we're just speculating.

Like I say, the Tuscon Sherrif went through the same process, going on a rant about how angry he was at the tone of the political rhetoric in the area and discussed the vandalism of Gifford's campaign office and the gun that was found at a health care event.

Law enforcement is speculating, why can't we? I think you're more upset about the obvious direction such speculation is leading.

[MattusMaximus]

Still waiting for facts, people... take some chill pills.