UFO help needed!!!

[kittynh]

usually I have no problem with the UFO questions I get on another site. Since I'm probably the only skeptic on there I like to answer the questions as well as I can. I've got all the Phillip Klass books and stuff, but HELP!!!

I can't quite make my mind up about this one...birds, kites...

I know I need more information like was it summer, where was it...

I do find that people are usually quite happy to get a reasonable explaination.

Any clues for me?


here it is.......................................


Question:
Hi, about 2 years ago me and some friends were walking to another friend's house and me and another person saw something in the sky. It was about 10pm and it looked like to brightly coloured objects (brighter than stars) were rotating around eachother. At this point everyone was watching and what was so weird was that these objects started rotating the other way around eachother. This must have lasted for about 15 - 20 seconds and then these objects flew off and faded in different directions. have you any suggestions to waht we saw that night? Some people i have told suggested it could have been a sattellite doing something but if was a very clever satellite if it was one!!! please email me back soon

[Mercutio]

I doubt this was it, but that sounds similar to something that really freaked me out while driving once...but then turned out to be a fancy spotlight display for an auto dealership in Exeter (yup, the home of Betty and Barney Hill, for those in the know...)

[FFed]

When my brother flew fighter jets they would do night excercises and would get UFO reports all the time from their afterburners. This sounds like it could be a possibility. Two jets circling then changing direction and leaving in different directions. Ask if there are any military bases around and what colour the lights were.

[The Don]

I'd go with Mercutio as to the most likely cause. It's certainly consistent with a similar experience I had in Northe Carolina last year

[Soapy Sam]

I've seen two things that fit the description.
1. Lasers (or very bright lights) used at an outdoor concert, projected on low cloud.
2. Two insects- likely moths- doing exactly what the observer said. At night, if they were catching a light shining at a particular level, they seem to fade rapidly as they separate.

I've seen both and been momentarily disconcerted. And I know my way around the night sky fairly well.

[Dragonrock]

I'm with Mercutio, the idea that they rotated around each other in different directions supports the spotlight theory pretty well.

Also, do you have any people who insist that it was an alien ship they saw even though you explained that alien ships wouldn't have something like "American Airlines" painted on the side of their ship?

[The Don]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonrock
Also, do you have any people who insist that it was an alien ship they saw even though you explained that alien ships wouldn't have something like "American Airlines" painted on the side of their ship?

That's just part of their fiendish disguise

[kittynh]

Don't laugh, I did a thread here quoting snippets from a book by a woman who believes that alien craft disguise themselves as airplanes. Her prime viewing area is in NJ, where she claims to have seen UFOs just circling around and around. Planes do not do that (well, planes I have been on do! ) . This all seems to happen in the direction of Newark airport!

Most people that pick me to answer their question really do want a truthful answer. Those that come to me with the "I was kidnapped" get not laughter, but an explaination about sleep and the many stages. If they still insist, I reccomend they seek help, as they may be suffering from PTSD. I know they aren't. But, they are very upset people, and others have been feeding into their fears. I also warn them NOT TO BE HYPNOTISED. I've had email back from people that are feeling much better since starting meds, and thanking me. However, the people who want to keep their fantasy won't ask me a question.

[Dragonrock]

Kitty, You're such a sweetheart. It's obvious you really care about people. I've decided that I love you instead of pillory now.

[Brown]

I have seen something like this myself, on a couple of occasions. On each occasion, the event was a group of advertising aircraft flying around a stadium that was hosting a nighttime sporting event.

Over the 1999 All-Star game in Boston, for example, there were no fewer than four illuminated blimps over Fenway Park.

[kittynh]

well, even the Bad Astronomer was stumped on this one. The duration was so short, it's hard to know what you've seen.

But thanks everyone! I passed on your answers to the person.

REally, a lot of sane people see stuff they can't explain. If they ask the wrong person...they get the stupid answer (aliens).

[Blondin]

Just for future reference you might want to be aware that there are very powerful green laser pointers available now that cast a very visible beam into the sky. If the beam happens to fall on a power line or something it shows up like a green flash.

Green lasers

I attended our astronomy club's annual star party last weekend and one of the highlights was a laser-guided tour of the universe by one of our local astro-celebrities. I was surprized at how many other people also had green lasers, some of them quite powerful. At times there were 6 or 7 beams criss-crossing the sky at once.

[CFLarsen]

kittynh,

What I'd like to know is, when will you write me an article on UFOs?

[Anders W. Bonde]

Oh, d@mn, Claus...I still owe you that interview with G. Odd...

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Anders W. Bonde
Oh, d@mn, Claus...I still owe you that interview with G. Odd...

Yes, you bl00dy well do....Deadline's the 26th. JULY!

[The Bad Astronomer]

I was stumped, but now that Mercutio mentioned it, I have seen exactly what he is saying, and it matches the description perfectly. In fact, last Halloween a local group put together some sort of evening show, and had bright spotlight aimed upwards. They lights would circle each other and then move outward. As they moved out, they faded, due to their illumination of the cloud layer being spread out.

This seems to me to be the very likely answer.

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Bad Astronomer
I was stumped, but now that Mercutio mentioned it, I have seen exactly what he is saying, and it matches the description perfectly. In fact, last Halloween a local group put together some sort of evening show, and had bright spotlight aimed upwards. They lights would circle each other and then move outward. As they moved out, they faded, due to their illumination of the cloud layer being spread out.

This seems to me to be the very likely answer.

(pokes The Bad Astronomer...you could clean out your desk too...I'm sure there's an article there too....)

[Anders W. Bonde]

(Flogs himself with scorpions)

I'll get you something by the 26th - G.odd permitting...

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
kittynh,

What I'd like to know is, when will you write me an article on UFOs?

Claus, you short-sighted Flodin, you... The real article here, I humbly suggest, is on Kitty's work as the UFO expert, and her experiences with the individuals who come to her. It sounds like there is quite an art to telling people "yes, you saw something, but it was most likely not what you thought it was" without them hearing an implicit ", you idiot". And it sounds like Kitty does it well.

Anyway, that's the article I want Kitty to write...maybe as a chapter in the book G6 proposed...remember that?

[kittynh]

wow! That would be fun, if Kitten would edit it for me. When you are an art major all you need to learn is to sign your name in the corner!

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
Claus, you short-sighted Flodin, you... The real article here, I humbly suggest, is on Kitty's work as the UFO expert, and her experiences with the individuals who come to her. It sounds like there is quite an art to telling people "yes, you saw something, but it was most likely not what you thought it was" without them hearing an implicit ", you idiot". And it sounds like Kitty does it well.

Anyway, that's the article I want Kitty to write...maybe as a chapter in the book G6 proposed...remember that?

Well, I just wanted to give Kitty some room here, but nooooo, you had to go and spoil all that. (OK, it sounds like a good idea, but that's not the point! I can't gripe if I agree with you!)

Kitty? 26th. On my desk. (your article, I mean....!!!!)

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by CFLarsen
Well, I just wanted to give Kitty some room here, but nooooo, you had to go and spoil all that. (OK, it sounds like a good idea, but that's not the point! I can't gripe if I agree with you!)

Kitty? 26th. On my desk. (your article, I mean....!!!!)

CFL, you wanted to give an artist more room to work? And you expect something on the 26th?

(oh, and Kitty, if Kitten's schedule does not allow her to edit, I certainly can help. You don't mind if the final product is in iambic pentameter, do you?)

[kittynh]

The 26th of November????



right........

[CFLarsen]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
CFL, you wanted to give an artist more room to work? And you expect something on the 26th?

You'd be amazed at the number of great works of art that had a deadline...

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
(oh, and Kitty, if Kitten's schedule does not allow her to edit, I certainly can help. You don't mind if the final product is in iambic pentameter, do you?)

........I would.

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
The 26th of November????

right........

July, 2004. This dimension.

Quote:

Originally posted by kittynh
right........

Excellent!

[kittynh]

so like.....

since I don't write, and my colorful collage showing the interaction between UFOs and my inbox is taking longer than I expected....

How many words and where do I send it?

The article is free, but if I use my real name on the illustration my agent gets a cut.

Oddly enough, by real name, I mean my professional name.

See, I'm already confused.

"Once upon a time there was a sad group of orphaned baby guinea pigs...."

(this is not going well)

[Mr. Skinny]

Quote:

Originally posted by Soapy Sam
I've seen two things that fit the description.
1. Lasers (or very bright lights) used at an outdoor concert, projected on low cloud.
(snip)

Outdoor laser displays are regulated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and (I believe) the Food & Drug Administration (FDA).

If the sighting was the result of a (legal) outdoor laser display, there would be records on file with these organizations.

[Archer17]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Skinny
Outdoor laser displays are regulated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and (I believe) the Food & Drug Administration (FDA).

If the sighting was the result of a (legal) outdoor laser display, there would be records on file with these organizations.

Agreed .. I tend to lean toward a laser display explanation based on the description, and accessing the pertinent records (if it was sanctioned) would officially put this to bed. The other guesses? possible ET? :scoff: Spotlights? Possible, but doubtful in my opinion and kinda lame. To me it sounds like a lazy excuse to brush the whole thing off based on the unsupported presumption that the observer doesn't know what spotlights look like. Multiple spotlights that move aren't exactly an unknown to even those less skeptical than we are. The jet theory ignores the fact that they make distinctive "jet noises" .. so what's left? lasers or fabrication.

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by Archer17
Spotlights? Possible, but doubtful in my opinion and kinda lame. To me it sounds like a lazy excuse to brush the whole thing off based on the unsupported presumption that the observer doesn't know what spotlights look like. Multiple spotlights that move aren't exactly an unknown to even those less skeptical than we are.

Um...they thoroughly creeped me out when I saw them. The display I saw moved in a way I had never seen before (nor ever since, come to think of it).

[kittynh]

well, and add in cloud cover, or weird conditions. People just aren't used to looking at the night sky. I try to look outside a little bit each night it is clear. I live far from light pollution (except for my neighbors stupid garage light), and I always see stuff I can't explain.

Take for example the "Brown Mountain Lights" of North Carolina. It's car head lights and train lights (though they have been "reported" by the Native Americans far back in history....right). You would think people would know what a car head light looks like, even from a distance. But because of the way the area is situated, people are still being fooled.

[Archer17]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
Um...they thoroughly creeped me out when I saw them. The display I saw moved in a way I had never seen before (nor ever since, come to think of it).

I'm not doubting that spotlights could fool some .. I'm just not comfortable with this "knee-jerk" explanation. I'd feel the same way if "swamp gas" was cited. The bottom line is this phenomenon was most likely a ground-based light show .. the type of light is open to debate. I just ain't buying the spotlight spiel. Sounds like lazy skepticism to me.

[kittynh]

The thing to remember also is that if someone is asking me what they saw, they have looked for a UFO "expert". That means they are thinking it could be a UFO. There are astronomical experts they can ask too, when I'm chosen, I know they are at least thinking aliens.

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by Archer17
I'm not doubting that spotlights could fool some .. I'm just not comfortable with this "knee-jerk" explanation. I'd feel the same way if "swamp gas" was cited. The bottom line is this phenomenon was most likely a ground-based light show .. the type of light is open to debate. I just ain't buying the spotlight spiel. Sounds like lazy skepticism to me.

I can understand that. I have a different take on it, though, more in line with Bayesian inference. The most common of the proposed explanations, in my opinion (take that for what it is worth--this in itself is merely a heuristic guess), the spotlight explanation. Certainly more common than a laser show, a flight of blimps, small aircraft... (yes, this does depend on where you are)...so even if the likelihood of misinterpretation is low, the population of events is larger, and the conditional probability seems greater. Not lazy skepticism, just starting with the most common possibility; if and when we can eliminate that, move on.

[Archer17]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mercutio
I can understand that. I have a different take on it, though, more in line with Bayesian inference. The most common of the proposed explanations, in my opinion (take that for what it is worth--this in itself is merely a heuristic guess), the spotlight explanation. Certainly more common than a laser show, a flight of blimps, small aircraft... (yes, this does depend on where you are)...so even if the likelihood of misinterpretation is low, the population of events is larger, and the conditional probability seems greater. Not lazy skepticism, just starting with the most common possibility; if and when we can eliminate that, move on.

Bayesian inference? Sounds deep. I'll have to look that up. In the mean time, you think someone would be snookered by a spotlight? Like I said, it's possible, but my laser endorsement makes better sense. Blimps, small aircraft aside (which is irrelevant since blimps weren't mentioned and, outside of one poster, high performance aircraft weren't considered as an explanation), I think your reference to what is "most common" makes my case .. lazy skepticism. If you are going to seriously tell me that you think someone doesn't know the difference between a spotlight(s) and an pontential extraterrestrial craft then you are more cynical than I am. I'm only proposing they don't know the difference between a laser image and potential extraterrestrial craft ..

[Mercutio]

Quote:

Originally posted by Archer17
If you are going to seriously tell me that you think someone doesn't know the difference between a spotlight(s) and an pontential extraterrestrial craft then you are more cynical than I am. I'm only proposing they don't know the difference between a laser image and potential extraterrestrial craft ..

LOL...I am telling you that someone might confuse a particular type of spotlight display with a potential extraterrestrial craft, yes. But only because of my own personal experience with precisely that reaction! I was truly and honestly freaked out by the display (I suppose I should go into more detail--as Kittynh guesses, it was on a cloudy night. The lights whirled around each other against the background of the clouds, such that the lights grew and shrank and moved...of course, size, speed, and distance are only interpreted in our visual system by visual angle, so variations in size can be interpreted as changes in direction and speed...in addition, their distance from me was unknown. Without a known size, the distance could only be guessed; in my case, I guessed wrong, apparently, because I thought I'd be approaching it quickly. Instead, it appeared to stay ahead of me much longer than I thought it should; the perception, of course, was that it was moving away from me. At this point, despite my skeptical credentials, my pulse was racing, my breath more shallow, and I was starting to really freak out. Mrs. Mercutio was asleep in the passenger's seat, so I had no other witness to check my own perceptions against. I was honestly relieved, if a bit embarassed, to find that I had been fooled by spotlights.).

So, humilating as it may be, I advanced this explanation because it happened to me. Had I turned off the highway before I found out the truth, I might not have this explanation, and I might scoff at it as you do. I'd thumb my nose at the silly attempt to explain so remarkable experience with such a mundane reality. But, in fact, while it may not be the explanation for Kittynh's eyewitness, it is a perfectly adequate and parsimonious explanation for the experience.

I would also suggest, Archer17, that you look at the number of different objects that have been reported as UFO's over the years. (If memory serves, there are stories of law enforcement officers on a high-speed, interstate chase of...the planet Venus. The UFO reported by President Jimmy Carter was also Venus.) Here and here are a couple of places to start. Our visual system is imperfect, especially under dim or dark conditions, and what we see is coloured by our expectations (and once the "maybe it's a UFO" idea pops in, it is very easy to look for confirmatory evidence).

This is not lazy skepticism. This is skepticism based on a thorough understanding of perceptual systems, and an attempt to be parsimonious. Looking for a more complex and less common explanation just because you refuse to believe that one could be fooled by spotlights seems odd to me.

[Larry Barrieau]

Archer17,

I must admit that your response to Merc's idea seems rash and unnecessarily hostile. You appear to want to insult rather than debate.

May I suggest that you take it down a notch? After all this is not important enough to get heated up over. A simple query by Kittynh and some ideas for her to consider, that's all. A reasonable discussion will produce more information.

Larry

[Larry Barrieau]

Kitty,

I suppose that you already have the latest SkEPTIC magazine. It has a considerable amount of UFO stuff in it. I found the article on Charles Berlitz interesting.