Reading the Bible, Joshua forward

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

You want an exact time—this has been given---Thursday 21:30—that is the hour---that is the day---now the month—very soon!!

Okay, so, if I understand you correctly, Thursday, which on the west coast of the U.S. is about an hour away, is when, at 9:30 in the evening . . . what is going to happen, exactly?

[IllegalArgument]

Originally Posted by Wildy

Not actually true. David had already slept with Bathsheba and got her pregnant. He had called Uriah home with the hopes that he would go and bang his wife, thus covering up the adultery because people would just assume that the kid was Uriah's. Uriah decided to follow an old rule that said you don't go home while you're fighting in a war and stayed at the palace. It basically put David in a bind since there was now no way to cover up the fact that he impregnated Uriah's wife and so ordered him bumped off.

Scoring sweet fresh-widow ass without it counting as adultery was just an added bonus.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was reading too fast and missed the details. As I said David is not a nice person, God's chosen tend not to be.

Probably be at least a month or two before I start reading again, work has picked up.

[dafydd]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Okay, so, if I understand you correctly, Thursday, which on the west coast of the U.S. is about an hour away, is when, at 9:30 in the evening . . . what is going to happen, exactly?

Somebody will lose their car keys?

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by IllegalArgument

Thanks for clearing that up, I was reading too fast and missed the details. As I said David is not a nice person, God's chosen tend not to be.

David sleeping with Bathsheba and then ordering Uriah's death is pretty much the turning point in his reign where everything goes to hell. Basically everything that happens to him afterwards is punishment for that act.

Quote:

Probably be at least a month or two before I start reading again, work has picked up.

That's fine. As you've stated that one of us can continue where you left off you probably will find that will happen.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by psionl0

So according to Matthew, a man can divorce and remarry if his wife is unfaithful but according to Luke he can't.

Which quote is true? No doubt, Paul will choose Luke because he wants everybody to hate God.

Matthew records what Jesus said in Luke---divorce but you cannot remarry.
Luke combines all that Jesus said about divorce.
Now what when a man commits adultery—can a woman divorce her husband?

So basically when society knows the only reason for divorce is adultery—but to divorce –one cannot marry another person.
So an adulteress cannot marry an adulterer.


Originally Posted by Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.
Originally Posted by Luke 16:6
Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So according to Matthew, a man can divorce and remarry if his wife is unfaithful but according to Luke he can't.

Which quote is true? No doubt, Paul will choose Luke because he wants everybody to hate God.




Why should I want anyone to hate God—except God said that all will hate him?

John 17:14 (NIV) I have given them your Word and the world has hated them,

So now you hate me!!

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Wildy

Which, as has been pointed out, is contradicted by Jesus in other gospel verses.


Originally Posted by Paul Bethke
Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
Which, as has been pointed out, is contradicted by Jesus in other gospel verses.

How do you know that this verse is correct and Mt 19:19 isn't? They both say very different things.


Quote:
There cannot be remarriage it is adultery—there is no other way to apply what Jesus decreed—so if a person divorces they cannot marry some one else.
Apart from when Jesus says that the only valid divorces are in cases of adultery and that a man can get remarried


Quote:
This decree applies to men and women---so people have to consider very carefully what marriage entails.
When you consider the social values at the time all Jesus is doing in some verses is putting men on the same level as women. Other verses Jesus is just narrowing the scope for allowable divorces.


Quote:
Does this now set aside the Law?

John 8:7 “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Jesus did not set aside the Law!

He had the authority to forgive—so he forgave her on condition she abandons her sinful adulterous life.
Yes actually, yes it does. Jesus set aside the law by basically telling everyone that since they are sinful they don't have the authority to enforce the law.


Quote:
Does this mean that a person who kills someone should also be forgiven in the same way?
That would be dependent on the crime.


Quote:
Well how many laws are there?
Since the day I repented I have followed the laws as taught by Jesus.
So you only follow the laws that Jesus taught? Do you ignore the laws that are laid out in the Torah? Or do you only selectively follow them?


Quote:
I do not lie or steal or commit adultery---I do not eat food contrary to the commands.
So you don't eat pork or shrimp? You don't tell any sort of lie at all? You don't have any lustful thoughts at all?

No I do not lie—there is no need for me to try and deceive another person.

Lustful thoughts—I have learned to control the thoughts that invade a persons mind—so I use the law to filter out what is contrary to the law.

So what other laws are in the Torah that apply to a person who has faith in Jesus.
Jesus stated that to love one fellow being is to fulfil the requirements of the Torah.
Matthew 7:12 (NIV)
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
---

This Paul the Apostle taught to his converts to Christ.

Galatians 5:14-15 (NIV) The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbour as yourself. If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.



To love your neighbour means—do not lie to them.
Do not commit adultery—honour the marriage vows.
Do not covet your neighbour’s wife or property.

A list is in Leviticus—all laws pertaining to each other.

Leviticus 19:11-19 (NIV)
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not deceive one another.
Do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your God. I am the LORD.
Do not defraud your neighbour or rob him.
Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.
Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.
Do not pervert justice;
Do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great,
but judge your neighbour fairly.
Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
Do not do anything that endangers your neighbour’s life. I am the LORD.
Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbour frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. I am the LORD.
Keep my decrees.
Do not mate different kinds of animals.
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.


Many of the laws in the Torah are present today. Laws of justice –the dealing with crime---laws for animals—laws for building—laws pertaining to cleanliness; hygiene.

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Okay, so, if I understand you correctly, Thursday, which on the west coast of the U.S. is about an hour away, is when, at 9:30 in the evening . . . what is going to happen, exactly?

Okay, it's Thursday; so, what's going to happen at 9:30 p.m. (South African time?) that will serve as a test and demonstrate the validity of your claims?

[dafydd]

Nothing,and he will claim that as a success.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Wildy

David sleeping with Bathsheba and then ordering Uriah's death is pretty much the turning point in his reign where everything goes to hell. Basically everything that happens to him afterwards is punishment for that act.

So what I have said—the Bible does not hide the sins of kings---the resultant effect that the sin of David had on people was horrendous ---trying to cover up his sin was so brutal.

David already had some eight wives.

So adultery leads to violence—most domestic crimes are the result of adultery—that is why God said—do not commit adultery—it will lead to violence.

Malachi 2:16 (NIV) I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty.
So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.


This was the reason God destroyed the people in the time of Noah—violence.
Genesis 6:11-13 (NIV) Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.
►God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.
So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people,
for the earth is filled with violence because of them.
I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.


So the reason Yahweh destroyed the earth was because of violence---caused by adultery—this is the same reason; judgement will be metered out on this world.
The word corruption indicates the cause—adultery.

Revelation 19:2 for true and just are His judgements.
He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
►He has avenged on her the blood of His servants.”

[Niggle]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

This is where some people like yourself; go on hearsay.
If you read through the record you will see that there was not random sex.
A man had to go through the prescribe law of marriage.

Where there was sexual misconduct; the Hebrews were put to death:-

Numbers 25:1-5 (NIV)
While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods.
The people ate and bowed down before these gods.So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD’s anger burned against them.
►The LORD said to Moses, “Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the LORD’s fierce anger may turn away from Israel.” So Moses said to Israel’s judges,
►“Each of you must put to death those of your men who have joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor.”

So that is how immoral Israelites were treated.
Marriage is the most important decree of Yahweh—adultery is punishable by death.

So God would not have condoned such acts as rape!

Um, no, see the highlighting above. God said nothing about killing them for rape. He killed them because they worshipped other gods.

Okay, I don't remember where in the bible it is, but in describing one of these god-sanctioned massacres, he tells them to kill everyone but the young girls who "have not known men yet" and to take those girls as wives/concubines/slaves so they can bear the children of the Israelites. Um, yeah, so a grown man getting a ten-year-old pregnant isn't rape? And the lord told them to do it?

[Niggle]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

The commands that God gave Moses to teach Israel were protective and not restrictive.
Yahweh instituted marriage between a man and the woman he takes as wife.
He was to love her as he would himself---that is to nurture and provide for her—she would be the mother of his children—the family is the centre focus of creation.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for her


When they asked Jesus his view of what he understood marriage to be from the Scriptures –he referred them to the beginning.

Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus to test him. They asked,
“Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
“Haven’t you read,” Jesus replied,
“that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said,
‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
and the two will become one flesh’?
So they are no longer two, but one.
Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”


Adultery in marriage was to be viewed as a capital offence—the putting to death of the guilty parties.
Leviticus 20:10”‘If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbour—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.


So basically a man could not marry a divorced woman—a woman could not marry a divorced man—they would be committing adultery—which is contrary to the Ten Commands.

Exodus 20:5
Honour your father and your mother,
so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
You shall not murder.
You shall not commit adultery.
You shall not steal.
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.
You shall not covet your neighbour’s house.
You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife,


Jesus sums the whole issue with the following decree:-►

Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery,and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Luke 18:20 You know the Commandments: ‘Do not commit adultery

Genesis 39:9-My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife.
►How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?”


Besides all this Yahweh states that he hates divorce►
Malachi 2:16 “I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.


The indecent factor here is that the woman was not a virgin—this is the same case as in ►
Dt 22:20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found,

Dt 24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,

The final analysis is that a man must marry a virgin—otherwise he marries another mans wife--►

Sex constitutes marriage---the term sex before marriage is erroneous.
So a thirteen year old girl or younger who has had sex is married—if she does not continue with that male she will be committing adultery by marrying someone else.

A man who has sex with a virgin ---cannot marry any one else –he will be committing adultery.

So Prince Charles and Camilla are committing adultery.



Jesus as the mediator of Yahweh makes this the final decree--►
Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery,and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

So as such Jesus refers to what God intended as what constitutes marriage.

So a young girl (in your words, thirteen or younger) who has had sex must remain with the man she had sex with? Even if the only reason a girl that young has had sex is because she was raped?

Wow. That's really twisted.

I also note that your precious commandments do not forbid rape (and don't give me the adultery crap again; it's irrelevant unless you erroneously assume that every woman ever born has had sex at birth).

[dafydd]

Nothing happened.

[Wildy]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

A list is in Leviticus—all laws pertaining to each other.

Leviticus 19:11-19 (NIV)
Do not steal.
Do not lie.
Do not deceive one another.
Do not swear falsely by My Name and so profane the Name of your God. I am the LORD.
Do not defraud your neighbour or rob him.
Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight.
Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD.
Do not pervert justice;
Do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great,
but judge your neighbour fairly.
Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
Do not do anything that endangers your neighbour’s life. I am the LORD.
Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbour frankly so you will not share in his guilt.
Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. I am the LORD.
Keep my decrees.
Do not mate different kinds of animals.
Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.


Many of the laws in the Torah are present today. Laws of justice –the dealing with crime---laws for animals—laws for building—laws pertaining to cleanliness; hygiene.

Do you follow only these laws or do you follow all the laws in the Torah (hint: these aren't the only laws)?

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Wildy

Do you follow only these laws or do you follow all the laws in the Torah (hint: these aren't the only laws)?

Originally Posted by Wildy

Do you follow only these laws or do you follow all the laws in the Torah (hint: these aren't the only laws)?

So what are the others laws that I must follow?


There are many laws 613 the Hebrews say---many of those laws are the fulfilling of prophecy.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitzvah


There are the Leviticul laws pertaining to the priests—the sacrificial laws.

OH yes I do not trim the sides of my beard –or let my hair become unkempt—only when I wake up in the morning—then I brush it neatly into place.
I do observe Sunday as the Sabbath; not half Friday and half Saturday.


One will have to look at the laws with regards to conduct towards each other.

The Ten Commandments are the first stage of consideration.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Niggle

So a young girl (in your words, thirteen or younger) who has had sex must remain with the man she had sex with? Even if the only reason a girl that young has had sex is because she was raped?

Wow. That's really twisted.

I also note that your precious commandments do not forbid rape (and don't give me the adultery crap again; it's irrelevant unless you erroneously assume that every woman ever born has had sex at birth).

You are the one who has got every thing twisted.
Your assumptions are incorrect—get the facts right before you jump to conclusions!!

Rape is punishable by death—so if a thirteen year old girl or younger is raped—the rapist must die—so when the rapist is put to death—the girl can marry some one of her choice.
►While the rapist is alive the girl will be committing adultery.

There are thirteen year old girls and younger coerced into having sex—that is rape—that is statuary rape.

Marriage must be sanctioned by the parents.
Sex constitutes marriage—so now boys and girls must realise the consequence of their actions.

So again –a man must marry a virgin; that is with the consent of the parents.
A woman must retain her virginity for the day of her consummation.

2 Samuel 13:14 (NIV) But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

2 Samuel 13:32-33 (NIV)
But Jonadab son of Shimeah, David’s brother, said, “My lord should not think that they killed all the princes; only Amnon is dead. This has been Absalom’s expressed intention ever since the day Amnon raped his sister Tamar.
My lord the king should not be concerned about the report that all the king’s sons are dead. Only Amnon is dead.”

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 (NIV) But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.►Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death.

So this should be clear to you now!!

The problem that exists today is that rapist are allowed to live—so now the Laws of God must be imposed as to set the victims free.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Niggle

Um, no, see the highlighting above. God said nothing about killing them for rape. He killed them because they worshipped other gods.

Okay, I don't remember where in the bible it is, but in describing one of these god-sanctioned massacres, he tells them to kill everyone but the young girls who "have not known men yet" and to take those girls as wives/concubines/slaves so they can bear the children of the Israelites. Um, yeah, so a grown man getting a ten-year-old pregnant isn't rape? And the lord told them to do it?

Again you are wrong—you have not read the previous comments on this subject---sex constitutes marriage—so they were not captured to be sex slaves.

As slaves they would serve the Hebrew households—provision was made for marriage to a slave woman—not little girls—where do you conjure up such hideous ideas from?


What you fail to understand is that God wanted; the Hebrew nation to stay married to Hebrews—not mingle the race.

Ezra 9:2 (NIV) They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them.

[Foster Zygote]

What happened yesterday, Paul?

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

What happened yesterday, Paul?

What was supposed to happen yesterday—I got a lot of chores done yesterday!!

Are you referring to the 21:30 hours Thursday---you probably do not know the reference to that---it is to do with the Randi blinding—a well known claim of mine—going back nearly a decade.

The 21:20 hrs is Eastern Time USA—Thursday is the day—the month and year must still be scheduled.

The postponement over the years was due to events unfolding—one being the situation in South Africa—the other being the Israeli –Palestine conflict.
The two are crucial in the intervention of the fulfilment in the plan.

[Safe-Keeper]

Quote:

Rape is punishable by death—so if a thirteen year old girl or younger is raped—the rapist must die—so when the rapist is put to death—the girl can marry some one of her choice.
►While the rapist is alive the girl will be committing adultery.

Just as I thought this thread couldn't get any worse...

Quote:

What was supposed to happen yesterday—I got a lot of chores done yesterday!!

Are you referring to the 21:30 hours Thursday---you probably do not know the reference to that---it is to do with the Randi blinding—a well known claim of mine—going back nearly a decade.

The 21:20 hrs is Eastern Time USA—Thursday is the day—the month and year must still be scheduled.

The postponement over the years was due to events unfolding—one being the situation in South Africa—the other being the Israeli –Palestine conflict.
The two are crucial in the intervention of the fulfilment in the plan.

One more time, in English.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper

Just as I thought this thread couldn't get any worse...
One more time, in English.

Had man carried out what was stipulated in the beginning---there would never have been this decay in morality---now man must be faced with the fact—that is that God will impose his laws; whether man accepts them or not.

What do you want in English?

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

. . . (snippet)

Rape is punishable by death—so if a thirteen year old girl or younger is raped—the rapist must die—so when the rapist is put to death—the girl can marry some one of her choice.
►While the rapist is alive the girl will be committing adultery. . . . (snippet)
So again –a man must marry a virgin; that is with the consent of the parents.
A woman must retain her virginity for the day of her consummation. . . . (snippet)

So, if they don't ever catch the rapist, the girl can never marry?

And if a man must marry a virgin and a woman must retain her virginity until she's married, does this mean a rape victim would be forever denied marriage?

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

What was supposed to happen yesterday—I got a lot of chores done yesterday!!

Are you referring to the 21:30 hours Thursday---you probably do not know the reference to that---it is to do with the Randi blinding—a well known claim of mine—going back nearly a decade.

The 21:20 hrs is Eastern Time USA—Thursday is the day—the month and year must still be scheduled.

The postponement over the years was due to events unfolding—one being the situation in South Africa—the other being the Israeli –Palestine conflict.
The two are crucial in the intervention of the fulfilment in the plan.

Are you sure the postponement had nothing to do with your complete inability to cause blindness to anyone without the aid of a pointed stick?

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

What was supposed to happen yesterday—I got a lot of chores done yesterday!!

Are you referring to the 21:30 hours Thursday---you probably do not know the reference to that---it is to do with the Randi blinding—a well known claim of mine—going back nearly a decade.

The 21:20 hrs is Eastern Time USA—Thursday is the day—the month and year must still be scheduled.

The postponement over the years was due to events unfolding—one being the situation in South Africa—the other being the Israeli –Palestine conflict.
The two are crucial in the intervention of the fulfilment in the plan.

Drat! Those pesky postponements! They trip up Harold Camping and you alike. So, when I asked you for a sign of something by which we can test your claims, you come up with something you claimed a decade ago, having to do - if I read this right - with James Randi being blinded, something that will happen on a Thursday at 9:30 p.m. in an unspecified month and year. Oh, BTW, where would I find this "well known" claim of yours?

Of course, since the date is missing, this can't really be tested. So, once again, I ask you: Can you give us a specific event that can be verified or falsified, i.e. tested, happening at given time or at least within a set of parameters?

[pakeha]

I became aware of this thread today and have read it all.
Obviously I'm still reeling from the revelations about rape victims, but even so I'm aware a burning question I have was never adressed:
What evidence is there of the presence of bears in Israel in historical times?
Apart from the OT, of course.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

Drat! Those pesky postponements! They trip up Harold Camping and you alike. So, when I asked you for a sign of something by which we can test your claims, you come up with something you claimed a decade ago, having to do - if I read this right - with James Randi being blinded, something that will happen on a Thursday at 9:30 p.m. in an unspecified month and year. Oh, BTW, where would I find this "well known" claim of yours?

Of course, since the date is missing, this can't really be tested. So, once again, I ask you: Can you give us a specific event that can be verified or falsified, i.e. tested, happening at given time or at least within a set of parameters?

The claim is well known on the Forum---you will find them in the threads I participated in.

Randi agreed to this –so now it is just a matter of time—the prerogative is mine—I am under no obligation to disclose the month and year.
When it happens you will know about it.

The fact is that it has been announced—so when it happens; it will be a sequel to other events.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

So, if they don't ever catch the rapist, the girl can never marry?

And if a man must marry a virgin and a woman must retain her virginity until she's married, does this mean a rape victim would be forever denied marriage?

Actually, her marriage is guarantied, as long as they can find her rapist and she isn't engaged to anyone else.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are caught in the act, the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.

Lucky her!

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

The claim is well known on the Forum...

Yes, it's among the forum's most famous jokes.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by pakeha

I became aware of this thread today and have read it all.
Obviously I'm still reeling from the revelations about rape victims, but even so I'm aware a burning question I have was never adressed:
What evidence is there of the presence of bears in Israel in historical times?
Apart from the OT, of course.

List_of_the_animals_in_the_Bible--Google


I suppose the only evidence is what is written—maybe some other evidence is available.

1 Samuel 17:3 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.
Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.
The LORD who delivered me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine.”

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Are you sure the postponement had nothing to do with your complete inability to cause blindness to anyone without the aid of a pointed stick?

I am sure—that is why I can wait—the timing is about right—the trap is set.

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by TimCallahan

So, if they don't ever catch the rapist, the girl can never marry?

And if a man must marry a virgin and a woman must retain her virginity until she's married, does this mean a rape victim would be forever denied marriage?

It is good to ask these questions because they do happen---take into account that these laws were provisional laws to be imposed.

So if a man rapes a woman and is never caught—then the woman must remain unmarried until the rapist is caught and put to death.

There are other aspects of the law that will insure that the man is caught.

[kiwimac]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

You are the one who has got every thing twisted.
Your assumptions are incorrect—get the facts right before you jump to conclusions!!

Rape is punishable by death—so if a thirteen year old girl or younger is raped—the rapist must die—so when the rapist is put to death—the girl can marry some one of her choice.
►While the rapist is alive the girl will be committing adultery.

There are thirteen year old girls and younger coerced into having sex—that is rape—that is statuary rape.

Marriage must be sanctioned by the parents.
Sex constitutes marriage—so now boys and girls must realise the consequence of their actions.

So again –a man must marry a virgin; that is with the consent of the parents.
A woman must retain her virginity for the day of her consummation.

2 Samuel 13:14 (NIV) But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

2 Samuel 13:32-33 (NIV)
But Jonadab son of Shimeah, David’s brother, said, “My lord should not think that they killed all the princes; only Amnon is dead. This has been Absalom’s expressed intention ever since the day Amnon raped his sister Tamar.
My lord the king should not be concerned about the report that all the king’s sons are dead. Only Amnon is dead.”

Deuteronomy 22:25-26 (NIV) But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.►Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death.

So this should be clear to you now!!

The problem that exists today is that rapist are allowed to live—so now the Laws of God must be imposed as to set the victims free.

The Old Testament laws are not binding on Christians or on Gentiles for that matter. As for your rather perverted interpretation of those laws please keep that kind of obscenity within your skull.

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

List_of_the_animals_in_the_Bible--Google


I suppose the only evidence is what is written—maybe some other evidence is available.

1 Samuel 17:3 But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.
Your servant has killed both the lion and the bear; this uncircumcised Philistine will be like one of them, because he has defied the armies of the living God.
The LORD who delivered me from the paw of the lion and the paw of the bear will deliver me from the hand of this Philistine.”

What part of 'Apart from the OT, of course.' didn't you understand?
Is there ANY evidence there were bears in Israel at the time of this story?
Apart from the OT, of course.

[Niggle]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

Again you are wrong—you have not read the previous comments on this subject---sex constitutes marriage—so they were not captured to be sex slaves.

As slaves they would serve the Hebrew households—provision was made for marriage to a slave woman—not little girls—where do you conjure up such hideous ideas from?


What you fail to understand is that God wanted; the Hebrew nation to stay married to Hebrews—not mingle the race.

Ezra 9:2 (NIV) They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them.

What you fail to understand is that if the woman has no choice (is taken as a slave), IT'S STILL RAPE!!! It doesn't matter how much silver you give her father. It makes no difference whether or not the bible says it's okay. If the ten-year-old was raised as a slave in a Hebrew household, she's still not doing it of her own free will (that's what "slave" means, you know), so IT'S STILL RAPE!

And if a girl who is raped cannot marry until her rapist is caught and killed, that's a really sick way to punish the victim. Especially these days, when rapists are either not caught or only given sentences ranging from two years to about seven.

Okay, someone help me out here. I can't access a bible reference site from work, and my home computer is on the fritz. Isn't there a passage in the bible about rape victims and guilt? If it happens in the country, she's considered a rape victim, but if it happens in the city, she's guilty of adultery and is put to death because she didn't scream loud enough?

[Garrette]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

The claim is well known on the Forum-

As Foster Zygote said, this is true and is one of the forum's most famous jokes. As I recall, there was a rush of forumites asking to be blinded along with Randi; it became something of a badge of honor to get on that list.

Of course, Paul was just as ambiguous and vacuous then as now.

[Niggle]

Originally Posted by Niggle

<snip>
Okay, someone help me out here. I can't access a bible reference site from work, and my home computer is on the fritz. Isn't there a passage in the bible about rape victims and guilt? If it happens in the country, she's considered a rape victim, but if it happens in the city, she's guilty of adultery and is put to death because she didn't scream loud enough?

Ha! Found it! I was able to get to the Skeptic's Bible site

City Rape

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

Country Rape

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. ... For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. -- Deuteronomy 22:25-27

Of an unbetrothed virgin

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. -- Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Of prisoners of war

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -- Numbers 31:15-18

Highlighted so you can see where the quotes from the bible are.

So the woman gets killed because she was raped, and the raped verigin has to marry her rapist and stay with him for the rest of his life.

Sick and twisted.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

I am sure—that is why I can wait—the timing is about right—the trap is set.

As we are discussing aspects of marriage, might I speculate that you do not speak of marriage from a perspective of experience?

[Paul Bethke]

Originally Posted by kiwimac

The Old Testament laws are not binding on Christians or on Gentiles for that matter. As for your rather perverted interpretation of those laws please keep that kind of obscenity within your skull.

Where did you get that twaddle from—who told you that nonsense?

The laws of Yahweh are eternal—or do you not understand what eternal is?

Ge 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree in Beersheba, and there he called upon
The Name of the LORD, the Eternal God.

Ps 119:89 Your Word, O LORD, is Eternal; it stands firm in the heavens.

Ps 119:160 All Your Words are true; all Your righteous laws are Eternal.

Mt 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away.
It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Mt 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment,
but the righteous to eternal life.”

Jesus said the laws are eternal---so what are Christians; if the laws that Jesus taught are not adhered to?

Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
►I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter,
►not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law
(Torah) until everything is accomplished.

But you should have known this—Jesus refers to Mose on many occations as the source of knowledge.

Lk 16:31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets,
they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

So Moses and the Law were presented as cardinal.

Matthew 5:19 (NIV)
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven,
►but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.


So I will be great!

[TimCallahan]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

The claim is well known on the Forum---you will find them in the threads I participated in.

Randi agreed to this –so now it is just a matter of time—the prerogative is mine—I am under no obligation to disclose the month and year.
When it happens you will know about it.

The fact is that it has been announced—so when it happens; it will be a sequel to other events.

Care to give me a link? I'm not keen on wading through the forum(s) to look it up.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by Paul Bethke

You are the one who has got every thing twisted.
Your assumptions are incorrect—get the facts right before you jump to conclusions!!

Rape is punishable by death—so if a thirteen year old girl or younger is raped—the rapist must die—so when the rapist is put to death—the girl can marry some one of her choice.
►While the rapist is alive the girl will be committing adultery.

There are thirteen year old girls and younger coerced into having sex—that is rape—that is statuary rape.

Marriage must be sanctioned by the parents.
Sex constitutes marriage—so now boys and girls must realise the consequence of their actions.

So again –a man must marry a virgin; that is with the consent of the parents.
A woman must retain her virginity for the day of her consummation.

2 Samuel 13:14 (NIV) But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.

2 Samuel 13:32-33 (NIV)
But Jonadab son of Shimeah, David’s brother, said, “My lord should not think that they killed all the princes; only Amnon is dead. This has been Absalom’s expressed intention ever since the day Amnon raped his sister Tamar.
My lord the king should not be concerned about the report that all the king’s sons are dead. Only Amnon is dead.”

[hilite]Deuteronomy 22:25-26 (NIV) But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.►Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death.

So this should be clear to you now!!

The problem that exists today is that rapist are allowed to live—so now the Laws of God must be imposed as to set the victims free.

I fear for the human race.

[tsig]

Originally Posted by pakeha

I became aware of this thread today and have read it all.
Obviously I'm still reeling from the revelations about rape victims, but even so I'm aware a burning question I have was never adressed:
What evidence is there of the presence of bears in Israel in historical times?
Apart from the OT, of course.

That word has been mistranslated it should say ' bares', that's right a bunch of filthy nudists did it!